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View Full Version : Who do YOU blame?


LASOXFAN
09-25-2003, 01:00 PM
Many are blaming the Twins series for this season's bitterly disappointing finish. Me no. I lay the blame on the weak first half and three chief culprits:

Konerko
Buehrle
Koch

It would've been one thing had these three simply "struggled" in the beginning of the season, but that wasn't the case. Every player, no matter who, is going to hit rough patches during the season. BUT THESE GUYS WERE AWFUL!! I'm talking off the charts bad.

It really is a credit to the other players on this team and the coaching staff that we were able to claw our way back in to this thing when we were 8 games back in June and looking dead in the water.

And don't try and tell me how Buehrle got some bad breaks. BS. He pitched like ****. Had he been able to be competetive and keep us in ball games we might have scratched out a few more wins. And Konerko? Think how many we would've won had he hit just .230 or .240. And don't waste your energy telling me how Manuel is to blame for these three playing so bad.

I've been a Sox fan since the early 70s and I've never been so disappointed.

Kilroy
09-25-2003, 01:05 PM
This team was inconsistent all year long. Think back to just before the break, they took 4 of 6 from the Cubs, and 5 of six from the Twins, then followed that up by losing 2 of 3 to Tampa, and getting swept by Detroit. They took 2 of 3 from Oakland one week, got swept by the Rangers the next.

I blame the whole team. You win as a team, and lose as a team.

MarkV
09-25-2003, 01:06 PM
Buehrle was not bad. He got no run support and had terrible defense behind him. Plus, there were a number of times where Buehrle got charged with earned runs that should have been unearned if not for dumb official scorers. When he was 2-10, his record should have been 8-4. What games were you watching?!

LASOXFAN
09-25-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
Buehrle was not bad. He got no run support and had terrible defense behind him. Plus, there were a number of times where Buehrle got charged with earned runs that should have been unearned if not for dumb official scorers. When he was 2-10, his record should have been 8-4. What games were you watching?!

all of them.

Bad rulings from the official scorer? Oh, right, my bad. That would explain his complete lack of confidence and the shellings he took.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-25-2003, 01:14 PM
Buehrle is a very good pitcher and certainly worthy of any team's rotation. However I don't think it was ever very realistic to expect him to duplicate his 2002 numbers in 2003. I'm not convinced we'll ever see that kind of production from him again.

He's under contract, he is cheap, and he is valuable towards helping the team win. He's a keeper, and not worthy of getting blamed for the disaster that was most of the first-half of this Sox season.

:(:

JRIG
09-25-2003, 01:17 PM
Mark Buehrle had 21 starts this year in which he gave up 2 ER or less. He had 8 starts in which he gave up 5 or more.

That's not quite sucking to me. Not as good as the last two years, but not terrible either.

The key to the season, in my opinion, was getting ZERO production offensively out of basically 4 positions for the entire first 90 games of the season. Crede and Konerko didn't even resemble major league hitters, Harris and Rowand were terrible in center, and the Sox got virtually no production out of their catcher the entire season. It's tough to overcome things like that.

duke of dorwood
09-25-2003, 01:21 PM
Well. I blame the lack of depth we had-and despite making some good moves this year, what if we still had Durham, Foulke, and a few of the role playing pitchers we let go to be replaced by the Rick White's of the world. Players do have bad years, going back a few years, some things done by the GM are still costing us

Hangar18
09-25-2003, 01:27 PM
I agree with those 3 assessments. It the sox werent thinking of the pocketbook so much, and just KEPT FOULKE, we'd be talking about the Following things Instead:

1. Starting Rotations for the Playoffs
2. Is Konerko going to play 1st ?
3. Why the Radio/TV stations are not Throwing SOX PARTIES,
instead of Cubby parties

Bobby Thigpen
09-25-2003, 02:17 PM
Think how many we would've won had he hit just .230 or .

Isn't that whay he hit until the last week? Isn't that what he is still hitting now?

Deadguy
09-25-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Isn't that whay he hit until the last week? Isn't that what he is still hitting now?

You can't possibly defend a guy WHEN HE HITS .186 WITH 3 HRs FOR HALF A SEASON.

I don't really care what he'll end up hitting, but going nearly 81 games with nearly 0 production is unacceptable, especially when it's coming from someone who is one of the highest paid guys on the team, who is supposed to be our leader, and who plays a position that requires a lot of offensive production.

We don't need guys who are player's of the week one week, and then slide into a 2 for 45 slump. We need leaders who are more consistent and who we can rely on for production. Can you honestly rely on Konerko to produce month in and month out?

Those games in the first half count just as much as the games in the second half. If we were the Yankees or the Braves, we could afford to waste money on him and hide him in the 7th spot. However, we are borderline playoff caliber as it is, which means we can't afford to have guys like Konerko completely disappear for half a season, if we want to make the playoffs, since we know that coming into every year, it will not be a cake walk to the finish.

Bobby Thigpen
09-25-2003, 02:29 PM
Hey I can't defend Pauly's year, it has been terrible. I'm just pointing out to you that you said that if he had only hit .230 or .240 the Sox would have been alright. He did that, the Sox aren't alright.

Iwritecode
09-25-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Many are blaming the Twins series for this season's bitterly disappointing finish. Me no. I lay the blame on the weak first half and three chief culprits:

Konerko
Buehrle
Koch

It would've been one thing had these three simply "struggled" in the beginning of the season, but that wasn't the case. Every player, no matter who, is going to hit rough patches during the season. BUT THESE GUYS WERE AWFUL!! I'm talking off the charts bad.

It really is a credit to the other players on this team and the coaching staff that we were able to claw our way back in to this thing when we were 8 games back in June and looking dead in the water.

And don't try and tell me how Buehrle got some bad breaks. BS. He pitched like s**t. Had he been able to be competetive and keep us in ball games we might have scratched out a few more wins. And Konerko? Think how many we would've won had he hit just .230 or .240. And don't waste your energy telling me how Manuel is to blame for these three playing so bad.

I've been a Sox fan since the early 70s and I've never been so disappointed.

Before you blame our struggles on our weak first half, try to remember that the Twins had the same problem. In fact, they were in third place for most of the first half! When the second half rolled around they were the hottest team in baseball. Although the Sox only had one less win than them. The difference? The H2H matchups. The Sox needed to take at least 3 of 4 in that final homestand against them and then take 2 of three in the Humpdome. They couldn't manage either one. That is a 6 game difference in the standings. 8 games if they would have swept both series. Either way the race would still be on right now.

Granted not having the horrible first half might have avoided the situation alltogether, but this team continues to prove that they cannot get the job done when the pressure is on.

Hell, they sometimes can't get it done when the pressure is off (see Tigers and D-Rays series) so why should we really be surprised???

The only thing I can say is at least they did it now instead of waiting untilt he playoffs to go three and out again...

I'm not sure which is worse...

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 02:44 PM
Obviously Billy Koch, Jerry Manuel and Paul Konerko stunk up the place so, in my feeble mind, they are the biggest letdowns - lets call them Level I Letdowns. I would love to grab Koch by that stupid little nanny goat beard and shave it off.

Level II Letdowns include Bartolo Colon and Mark Buehrle. I was figuring on them do win a few more, and lose a few less. Another Level II letdown was Jose Valentin because he always seemed to dissappear when they needed him. Rick White also.

Level III Letdowns include Jon Garland and Dan Wright. Garland because I thought he was more talented than he has shown. Dan Wright just flat out stinks - and that's pretty much what I expected.

Neither Letdown nor Pleasant Surprise - Magglio Ordonez and Aaron Rowand. I hope Rowand is the center fielder for good next year, and I hope they can work something out with Ordonez - because they don't need him at $14mm.

Pleasant Surprises include Joe Crede and Frank Thomas. Both had better years than I expected, as did Flash Gordon and Damaso Marte.

Big Surprise. Only one I'm afraid. Carlos Lee who I thought should have been run out of town last year. He had a much better year than I thought he was capable of having, and I hope it's not because it's a salary year.

voodoochile
09-25-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Hey I can't defend Pauly's year, it has been terrible. I'm just pointing out to you that you said that if he had only hit .230 or .240 the Sox would have been alright. He did that, the Sox aren't alright.

Not the first half he didn't. If he had, then he would be hitting about .270 or higher now.

captain54
09-25-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
It the sox werent thinking of the pocketbook so much, and just KEPT FOULKE, we'd be talking about the Following things Instead:

1. Starting Rotations for the Playoffs
2. Is Konerko going to play 1st ?
3. Why the Radio/TV stations are not Throwing SOX PARTIES,
instead of Cubby parties


I would have thought that you would have learned by now that a Reinsdorf and Co. led baseball franchise will never have anything but the pocketbook in mind, even if it comprises their chances to put a championship caliber baseball team on the field....

My take on it is that the 2000 division championship was the worst thing that could have happened.....let's face it, it was a fluke....Baldwin and Cal Eldred pitch lights out in the first half, we play some banged up teams, get hot offensively, but came back to reality in the second half and in the playoffs...

It has been evident since the second half of 2000, and even more so in the playoffs that this team and its nucleus does not have the makeup to take us to the promised land.....the lack of offensive output and inconsistency of a team built on the homerun is what killed this team in 2003, but its been a problem for 3 years now....

Jerry Manuel was hired as a Jim Leyland clone....the whole team was built around being able to bang the hell out of the ball, so as to negate the influence of a lame duck manager....

Replacing Manuel is a good start....but don't stop there...the whole dynamic of the team needs to be replaced and the mindset of the big inning via the homerun needs to be trashed immediately....

Iwritecode
09-25-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Big Surprise. Only one I'm afraid. Carlos Lee who I thought should have been run out of town last year. He had a much better year than I thought he was capable of having, and I hope it's not because it's a salary year.

So you really expected Loaiza to win 20 games and be in Cy Young contention up until the final weeks???

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 02:57 PM
So true.

I've got to be honest. If the White Sox were to cut Valentin loose (replacing him on an every day basis with Graffanino) and let Everett go (putting Rowand in every day), they could then go out and get a second baseman (I'm not a big Alomar fan) and a catcher (I'm not a big Alomar fan). You would then have at least a couple of potential "spark plugs" in the everyday line-up.

Starting pitching, however, remains a major concern for 2004 no matter what they do positionally.

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 02:59 PM
Oops.

There should have been a Real Major Surprises category - and Loaiza should have been on it.

My mistake.

Iwritecode
09-25-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Oops.

There should have been a Real Major Surprises category - and Loaiza should have been on it.

My mistake.

That's good. Otherwise I was going to ask you for next week's lottery numbers...

:)

kraut83
09-25-2003, 03:28 PM
Those I blame....

The ENTIRE offense for not getting clutch hits to save their lives, and JM/KW for trotting out a lousy flavor of the week 5th starter.

kittle42
09-25-2003, 03:34 PM
I blame Armando Rios, Josh Stewart, and David Sanders.

I do not blame Man-Soo Lee, the Babe Ruth of the Korean League.

Chisox353014
09-25-2003, 04:11 PM
http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2002/0301/photo/kent_i.gif
"At the risk of being unpopular, this reporter places the blame for all of this squarely on YOU, the viewers."

Sorry, that Simpsons thread in the Parking Lot made me realize that there is an appropriate quote from either Seinfeld or The Simpsons for every situation. Still, replace "viewers" with "fans" in the above quote and you pretty much nail the White Sox' front office philosophy, eh?

As for the season, I think the problem is not so much with specific players (though Konerko's struggles certainly didn't help) as it is one of attitude and approach. For the entire Manuel era, save 2000, the team has only played well when they've absolutely had to. We've had arguably the best team in the division the last 3 years, yet every year they're digging themselves out of a huge hole after dogging it the first 2-3 months. I'm also sick of the way there seems to be no coherent plan on offense, especially against pitchers they haven't faced before. No patience, no manufacturing runs, crappy situational hitting...combine this with no team speed and nobody who can bunt and it leads to the all-or-nothing home run offense we currently (don't) enjoy. Hopefully Manuel's successor will have these guys playing hard from Day 1, and pounding into their heads how the little things win games. We lost this division in April and May, not last week.

jabrch
09-25-2003, 05:10 PM
Quite simply, almost all of them...

I don't blame Carlos. I don't blame Everett and I don't blame Robbie. I don't blame Sandy or Marte and I don't blame Gordon or Loaiza. Past that, I blame everyone. Sure, Konerko and Koch are at the top of the list and Frank and Mags are at the bottom...but I blame them all.