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View Full Version : the mother of all white flags!


idseer
09-25-2003, 09:34 AM
after reading the many articles about what many of the sox vets have to say about staying with this team or how they feel about the state of new management i am ready to gut this team.
i believe this team is diseased from deep within and is so far off the path to success it's a hopeless cause.

at this point i would much rather follow a team that wants to win and has to grow to do it. as the team stands now we're in for more of the same, new manager or not.

trade magglio and buehrle. don't resign colon, valentin, alomar or everet. dump konerko and koch. between trades and money saved by letting others go we should get a good start on players who have a future here.

the only vet i'd keep now is frank thomas, if for nothing else, as a figure head.

wouldn't you rather follow a team with energy and spirit, even if it took a couple seasons of growing before contending ... or go thru more of the same crap we've all witnessed for the last 3 years? cause i believe not much will change with these underachievers. they are only interested in their paychecks and the status quo, just like our glorious owner (who i'd also dump if it were possible).

i am dead serious about this. i am totally tired of this team. tell me i'm not alone.

hold2dibber
09-25-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by idseer
after reading the many articles about what many of the sox vets have to say about staying with this team or how they feel about the state of new management i am ready to gut this team.
i believe this team is diseased from deep within and is so far off the path to success it's a hopeless cause.

at this point i would much rather follow a team that wants to win and has to grow to do it. as the team stands now we're in for more of the same, new manager or not.

trade magglio and buehrle. don't resign colon, valentin, alomar or everet. dump konerko and koch. between trades and money saved by letting others go we should get a good start on players who have a future here.

the only vet i'd keep now is frank thomas, if for nothing else, as a figure head.

wouldn't you rather follow a team with energy and spirit, even if it took a couple seasons of growing before contending ... or go thru more of the same crap we've all witnessed for the last 3 years? cause i believe not much will change with these underachievers. they are only interested in their paychecks and the status quo, just like our glorious owner (who i'd also dump if it were possible).

i am dead serious about this. i am totally tired of this team. tell me i'm not alone.

I don't think you're alone, but I think you're in the minority and I think you're wrong. The same basic nucleus that was here in 2000 (Frank, Maggs, PK, Valentin, CLee, Buehrle) that we all loved because they were scrappy, played hard, played together, had heart and desire, etc., is still in tact. Several years of major league baseball clearly have taken some of the fire from their bellies, and I think playing under the "I don't care if we win today, cuz we can always win tomorrow" philosophy of JM for all these years has been a big factor in that.

So here's the deal - a new manager, particularly a manager with a pedigree who will demand immediate respect in the dugout can make a big difference for this team. Additionally, the division is so weak right now, and likely will remain pretty weak for at least the next two years, that it would be absolutely absurd to completely dismantle the most talented team in the division in favor of a 3 year rebuilding plan. I am not necessarily against a shake-up (i.e., a big move or two like trading Buehrle or Maggs or something) but not to get younger/cheaper - to get better now. There is too much opportunity with the talent the team has and the weakness in the division to throw it away.

fledgedrallycap
09-25-2003, 10:17 AM
You're not alone, my patience is worn paper thin with the efforts and results this team has produced over the last few seasons.

This team can still be very competitive next year so I don't want to see a rebuilding effort, but a good reshuffle is needed. In my opinion, this team needs to thin out the Right-handed, slow, power hitters - Valentin and Konerko. The Sox play station-to-station baseball. I want a handfull of new players that can slap the ball around, swipe some bases, and lie down an F'n BUNT!

This will be an interesting month for Sox fans, who Jerry and Kenny bring in to manage will largely determine the immediate future of this franchise.

idseer
09-25-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't think you're alone, but I think you're in the minority and I think you're wrong. The same basic nucleus that was here in 2000 (Frank, Maggs, PK, Valentin, CLee, Buehrle) that we all loved because they were scrappy, played hard, played together, had heart and desire, etc., is still in tact.

that 'great' team played .500 ball the last half of that season and gagged in the playoffs. it was embarrassing. (i don't know WHY they played so well the first half but it was obviously a fluke!)

frank? not the same anymore. magglio? very good ... can't take it up a notch and is not very clutch. konerko? who needs him? buehrle? doesn't even want to be here.
lee i'd keep because he still may be impressionable.

the 'heart' of that '00 team is bloodless, i'm afraid.

GoSox2K3
09-25-2003, 10:49 AM
I see where you're coming from, but I don't think I could bear another total rebuilding of this team! Maggs seems to have become a target on this website lately, but I think we've got to at least keep him and Carlos Lee and try to build a better team around them.

I'd also like to see them keep Roberto Alomar. He may be past his prime, but I don't see us getting anyone better if we let him go.

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 10:58 AM
Now Everett is in the Sun Times talking about how the White Sox are a better team than Minnesota. Guess what - the better team just won the division. I am so sick of this "We're better" attitude, and then having nothing to show for it.

If they broke this team up and started over - I wouldn't complain.

FarmerAndy
09-25-2003, 11:01 AM
If I keep anybody, I keep Carl Everett.

He played with the fire and desire to win. He's got the heart that this team has been missing for years.

mandmandm
09-25-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
In my opinion, this team needs to thin out the Right-handed, slow, power hitters - Valentin and Konerko.

I agree with what you say except that the words right-handed, power hitter, and Valentin should never be used in the same sentence.

DrCrawdad
09-25-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
I agree with what you say except that the words right-handed, power hitter, and Valentin should never be used in the same sentence.

I caught that too. Valentin is a player who should scrap switch hitting since he inhales from the right side.

But I do agree with the point that the Sox are (mainly) a righthanded, slow-foot team that relies on the longball. I don't necessarily want bunting, but a sac fly or a basehit with runners in scoring position would be nice.

kempsted
09-25-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Now Everett is in the Sun Times talking about how the White Sox are a better team than Minnesota. Guess what - the better team just won the division. I am so sick of this "We're better" attitude, and then having nothing to show for it.

If they broke this team up and started over - I wouldn't complain.
I would. Don't take the Everett comment out of context like the Sun Times tried to do. He was trying to clear up what he said the other day about the team not having hart. Everetts problem is he is dumb with the media. I don't want that to be a determining factor on weather we keep anyone. The media try to get a story. They don't try to get the truth. I was listening earlier this season when Koch was making a short lived comeback pitching OK and Mack Jerko and Harry had him on. They kept saying - Deep down didn't you hope the game was close so you could come in and get a save. Koch gave the well yah you always want to come in in a big situation and get the job done. Later after he was off Mack said - I can't believe that he wanted the games to be close with the way they are struggling. Sports reporters are the lowest form of humanity. If someone doesn't get a long with them that is a good sign.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-25-2003, 11:39 AM
Tony Pena is going to spend this weekend showing all of us how much a good manager can do to overcome a clubhouse filled with mediocre talent. The Sox have an outstanding chance of finishing behind Pena's Royals in the standings.

The Sox are far from being a perfect team. However, suggesting that it's the lack of talent in the clubhouse that prevented us from reaching the playoffs is to stretch reality. Minnesota may have more talent, but they definitely have a better manager. Certainly nobody here is going to stand up and declare Tony Pena has as much talent to work with as the Sox, too?

Lots of problems, but here's the biggest one -----> :jerry

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 11:47 AM
Talent manifests itself in wins. The end.

When somebody wants to talk about "being better" than an opponent, then they sure as hell better be ahead of them in the standings.

Is it possible that the White Sox's biggest problem is overconfidence and inflated egos? It sure looks that way.

voodoochile
09-25-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Talent manifests itself in wins. The end.

When somebody wants to talk about "being better" than an opponent, then they sure as hell better be ahead of them in the standings.

Is it possible that the White Sox's biggest problem is overconfidence and inflated egos? It sure looks that way.

I agree with this to some extent and think that comes from Manuel. He has never made it a priority to win until late in the season, almost expecting the team to turn it on and off as they desire. That started when they rested the regulars for the last 7 days before the playoffs in 2000 and the team has been trying to find the fire ever since.

Start with a new manager and go from there. More talent than the Twins? Probably not from an all around perspective, but they aren't less talented either, IMO. The core of this team can win, but they need to have a fire put back in their belly...

soxtalker
09-25-2003, 12:59 PM
Idseer, you are not alone. I would also not be terribly upset by a major break-up of this team. The statement that "we don't want to see another rebuilding" has almost become so common on this board that I didn't think that anyone else would have similar thoughts. It isn't that I want younger/cheaper; I want younger with more flexibility (i.e., willing to learn how to work the count, lay down bunts, hit the cut-off man, etc.) and real promise for the future. And sometimes such teams surprise you by doing better than you anticipate.

pudge
09-25-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I agree with this to some extent and think that comes from Manuel. He has never made it a priority to win until late in the season, almost expecting the team to turn it on and off as they desire. That started when they rested the regulars for the last 7 days before the playoffs in 2000 and the team has been trying to find the fire ever since.



A) get a manager who tries to win every game from the start of the season. KW should make a rule that nobody is allowed to use the words "it's still early".

B) somehow get rid of worthless Konerko, who's slower than a snail, and doesn't even play 1B that well.

C) Teach Olivo how to hit a curve.

D) Keep Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland and Colon (if you can) but for the love of God, have a solid option for the #5 starter next season, and move Wright to the pen.

We win the division easy if all of the above happen.

hold2dibber
09-25-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Talent manifests itself in wins. The end.

Nonsense. It doesn't take "talent" to focus so you hit the cut off man every time; to work overtime in the cage to perfect your bunting technique; to run aggressively and take extra bases at every opportunity; to make a conscious effort to move runners along instead of swinging for the fences; to spend extra time watching video and reading scouting reports to identify weaknesses in the other team's hitters; to keep your head in the game at all times so that you remember to back-up bases, throw to the right base, remember how many outs there are, etc.; to encourage your teammates; to do everything you possibly can every day to help your team win.

Don't get me wrong, teams without talent can't win. But a team with some talent (Twins) can defeat teams with more talent (Sox) by working harder and playing smarter. Teams with both talent and character (i.e., Yankees of the late '90s) are almost impossible to beat.

DC Sox Fan
09-25-2003, 02:18 PM
C) Teach Olivo how to hit a curve.

Ladies and gentlemen, your new Sox hitting instructor, JOBÜ!!!
:D:

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 02:22 PM
My definition of "talent" as it relates to a baseball team is:

"The ability to win baseball games."

That's why they play the season, and it's also why the season is so long. Over 162 games, the team with more talent is going to win more than its lesser competition. Do the White Sox have some players who are more talented than other players in given positions? Sure, there can be no arguing that. But can you say that the White Sox (collectively) are more talented than Minnesota? I'd like to see how.

I'm aggravated beyond belief with this club. On paper they look good - but for the past three years they have finished IN BACK OF MINNESOTA. How I wish some of the White Sox players would quit talking about how they are a better club than Minnesota, and accept the reality that they are not as good as Minnesota - and go forward with that as their attitude, and try to improve.

I know I'm venting here, but I'm one of the morons who actually thought they were going to win this division as late as last week. Everything about the White Sox over the past two weeks infuriates me. Yesterday I'm watching the game, and as Valentin hit a 3 run homer in a totally useless game - there he is grinning ear to ear as he rounds first base. I've got news for you Jose, the season is over. You guys blew it. Quit trying to talk about how dissappointed you are because "you're more talented". I'M NOT BUYING IT ANYMORE!

gosox41
09-25-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't think you're alone, but I think you're in the minority and I think you're wrong. The same basic nucleus that was here in 2000 (Frank, Maggs, PK, Valentin, CLee, Buehrle) that we all loved because they were scrappy, played hard, played together, had heart and desire, etc., is still in tact. Several years of major league baseball clearly have taken some of the fire from their bellies, and I think playing under the "I don't care if we win today, cuz we can always win tomorrow" philosophy of JM for all these years has been a big factor in that.

So here's the deal - a new manager, particularly a manager with a pedigree who will demand immediate respect in the dugout can make a big difference for this team. Additionally, the division is so weak right now, and likely will remain pretty weak for at least the next two years, that it would be absolutely absurd to completely dismantle the most talented team in the division in favor of a 3 year rebuilding plan. I am not necessarily against a shake-up (i.e., a big move or two like trading Buehrle or Maggs or something) but not to get younger/cheaper - to get better now. There is too much opportunity with the talent the team has and the weakness in the division to throw it away.


I love how Everett and Buehrle went out of their way after the game yesterday to say they feel bad about JM and how it's not his fault. All the words don't matter since the team as a whole didn't produce where it counts. I've heard of teams quitting on a manager they hated but it looks like Sox players took advantage of the freedom he gave them and that's why they don't want to see him go. In order to prevent all this all they needed to do was win, and the talent level was definitely there for that.

I'm all for a firey manager. If the players don't like it, then dump them. Obviously certain players on this team need someone to stay on their case and keep focused and while the JM way may be more fun for them it doesn't get the job done.

Bob

gosox41
09-25-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Talent manifests itself in wins. The end.

When somebody wants to talk about "being better" than an opponent, then they sure as hell better be ahead of them in the standings.

Is it possible that the White Sox's biggest problem is overconfidence and inflated egos? It sure looks that way.

Talent only manisfests itself if they are put in a situation to succeed. There have been tons of athletes that lost out to lesser athletes because they lacked heart or work eithic.


In my mind, there is no doubt the Sox were the most talented team on paper and should won the division by 8-10 games.

Bob

pudge
09-25-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes

I know I'm venting here, but I'm one of the morons who actually thought they were going to win this division as late as last week.

Glad to see you admit you're a moron. I pretty much bailed after we got swept by the Tigers.

:)

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 02:36 PM
In my opinion, talent includes heart and work ethic.

When somebody has unbelievable physical ability, yet doesn't give a damn (see:Dick Allen) or doesn't care to work hard (see:Lamar Hoyt), I would say that that person has potential. Talent is possessing all the attributes that it takes to win baseball games (including desire, heart, work ethic et al).

idseer
09-25-2003, 02:51 PM
strictly speaking i believe talent is an ability you're born with. something you have an apptitude for. whether you develop it and use it to it's fullest is something else again.
anyway all the talk of what talent is is just semantics.

the thing is this team, pretty much as a whole, has been tainted with very bad habits. i believe this team is naturally more talented than most teams but there's no consistancy of direction.
i believe from the very top down the attitude here is play well enough to stay in the green and it trickles down to the youngest rookie. that's why i think nothing will really change until JR is gone too!

till then, i say FLUSH THIS TEAM and try to salvage the kids!

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 03:15 PM
It may be semantics - but semantics are huge. If not for semantics, ideas don't get communicated.

I can be born with a natural appitude for music, but if I never learn to read music, never learn to play an instrument or frankly never work hard enough to achieve any significance in this area - then I could hardly call myself a talented musician.

The same goes for any talent. It has to be worked on again and again and again. It goes without saying that most in the majors have worked their butts off to get where they are - and relative to you and me - are very talented. But when one team consistently finishes below another, it's almost laughable when someone off the loser side starts staking a claim to being more talented. Sorry.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-25-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
It may be semantics - but semantics are huge. If not for semantics, ideas don't get communicated.

I can be born with a natural appitude for music, but if I never learn to read music, never learn to play an instrument or frankly never work hard enough to achieve any significance in this area - then I could hardly call myself a talented musician.

The same goes for any talent. It has to be worked on again and again and again. It goes without saying that most in the majors have worked their butts off to get where they are - and relative to you and me - are very talented. But when one team consistently finishes below another, it's almost laughable when someone off the loser side starts staking a claim to being more talented. Sorry.

In your estimation, does the relevant universe of "baseball talent" include the acumen of the team's manager?

If yes, I agree 100 percent. The ballplayers don't fill out the lineup cards or make the pitching changes--and that makes a big difference.

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 03:26 PM
The "talent level" of a ballclub does indeed include its management.

maurice
09-25-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
It may be semantics - but semantics are huge. If not for semantics, ideas don't get communicated.

You're exactly right, which is the problem here. According to the relevant definition in Webster's, "talent" means "the natural endowments of a person." Perhaps you should select a different word, such as "skill."

To use your hypothetical, you wouldn't be called a "talented musician," because you're not a "musician." You would have musical "talent" but insufficient "skill" to be considered a "musician."

Applying this to the case at hand, the Sox are the most "talented" team in the division, while the Twins are the most "skilled." (Talent doesn't get the runner in from third with less than two outs.) Improving this team, therefore, requries an organizational commitment towards acquiring and developing skilled players.

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 03:51 PM
Okay - I'll go along with that.

Minnesota is a more skilled baseball team than the White Sox.

That being said, the only thing that matters, as far as baseball teams go - is how skilled that team is.

SpringfldFan
09-25-2003, 03:59 PM
I think the Sox are just talented in one aspect of the game and the Twins are talented in another. I say that because baseball involves so much more than pure physical strength and agility. More than any other, baseball is a thinking man's game. Therefore, you cannot separate the mental aspect of the game from the physical when determining if you are talented or not. Being able to learn an opposing hitters tendencies, hitting the cutoff man, knowing not to risk third base with two out, being levelheaded in critical game situations, etc. etc. are all nuggets of talent in and of themselves and they are no less important in baseball then being able to hit a ball 400 feet or throw 100 mph. It all goes together.

SpringfldFan
09-25-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes


Minnesota is a more skilled baseball team than the White Sox.
That being said, the only thing that matters, as far as baseball teams go - is how skilled that team is.

Of course, except in certain situations like if the Sox are in the top of the 9th in game 7 of the World series at San Fransisco and they have none on/2 outs with Olivo up and Barry Bonds is due up for SF to lead off the bottom of the ninth. At that point I'm not thinking skill...

voodoochile
09-25-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by SpringfldFan
Of course, except in certain situations like if the Sox are in the top of the 9th in game 7 of the World series at San Fransisco and they have none on/2 outs with Olivo up and Barry Bonds is due up for SF to lead off the bottom of the ninth. At that point I'm not thinking skill...

Then that manager will have to be fired too, because Olivo should NOT be batting in that siutation...

KingXerxes
09-25-2003, 04:14 PM
Ahhhh SpringfldFan - you are thinking of skill and you don't even realize it.

The reason that the game is so tight in the first place if you'll recall is due to the fact that Frank Thomas got thrown out trying to steal third (with nobody out) in the first. And then in the third inning with Ordonez on second and Lee on first (again with nobody out) Valentin bunted into a triple play because he lined it straight to Jason Schmidt who doubled up Ordonez by thirty feet, and then Lee was tripled up (by almost forty five feet). After Manuel was kicked out for arguing the tripling up of Lee - we still had our chances, but for whatever reason Roberto Alomar only got a single on the ball that split the gap and rolled to the wall because he missed second base on his way to third, which is really ironic because it was his brother who missed first on what we all thought was a go ahead solo homer last inning. Oops wait a minute Olivo just bunted foul for strike three..........so here we go into the bottom of the ninth tied at 0-0.

Is that Billy Koch coming in?????????? Colon hasn't allowed a baserunner yet!

RichH55
09-25-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
In my opinion, talent includes heart and work ethic.

When somebody has unbelievable physical ability, yet doesn't give a damn (see:Dick Allen) or doesn't care to work hard (see:Lamar Hoyt), I would say that that person has potential. Talent is possessing all the attributes that it takes to win baseball games (including desire, heart, work ethic et al).


If only someone had some sort of "Dictionary" to look this up....or we can make the words mean what you want them to mean...you know..whatever

RichH55
09-25-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by pudge
A) get a manager who tries to win every game from the start of the season. KW should make a rule that nobody is allowed to use the words "it's still early".

B) somehow get rid of worthless Konerko, who's slower than a snail, and doesn't even play 1B that well.

C) Teach Olivo how to hit a curve.

D) Keep Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland and Colon (if you can) but for the love of God, have a solid option for the #5 starter next season, and move Wright to the pen.

We win the division easy if all of the above happen.


I agree with you on B)....but you you posibly pick worse reasons to jettison Paulie? Perhaps his feet aren't attractive and that causes the team to lose focus after seeing it in the shower? Maybe he doesn't button his buttons properly