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NewyorkSoxFan
09-25-2003, 06:33 AM
Southtown reporting that JM has already been informed of his impending fate. Not surprising since it would be tacky to fire your manager on the road.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/251sd2.htm


NYSF

Hangar18
09-25-2003, 07:40 AM
Tim Kurkjian on ESPN this morning said that there are only 2 very DISAPPOINTING teams, and those teams can look back on their seasons and know that they "Choked" down the stretch. Those 2 teams are the Phillies and our beloved White Sox. Unlike the Phillies, Bowas job isnt in jeopardy. He said he Fully Expects Manuel to be GONE as soon as the season concludes, because this TEam SHOULDVE BEEN THERE. They were built for October, and wouldve caused some serious trouble **Sigh***

cheeses_h_rice
09-25-2003, 07:53 AM
Another good move by the front office.

Nice!

idseer
09-25-2003, 08:06 AM
"Backman has a reputation for being a fiery guy who has no problem confronting players. While Backman wasn't mentioned by name Wednesday, several Sox players warned that if the front office is serious about keeping the core of the current roster together, replacing Manuel with a confrontational manager would be a bad direction to go. Real bad, according to outfielder Carl Everett.
"I figure it would do a lot worse," Everett said. "I figure we would do a lot worse because we have some guys in here that don't take criticism well ."

if this is true then i hope the team is gutted. trash the whole lot and let's have a nice cheap team that cares about what they're doing whether they win or lose. :angry:

jabrch
09-25-2003, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by idseer
"Backman has a reputation for being a fiery guy who has no problem confronting players. While Backman wasn't mentioned by name Wednesday, several Sox players warned that if the front office is serious about keeping the core of the current roster together, replacing Manuel with a confrontational manager would be a bad direction to go. Real bad, according to outfielder Carl Everett.
"I figure it would do a lot worse," Everett said. "I figure we would do a lot worse because we have some guys in here that don't take criticism well ."

if this is true then i hope the team is gutted. trash the whole lot and let's have a nice cheap team that cares about what they're doing whether they win or lose. :angry:


Buh Bye Carl! You don't like criticism? Sorry - you weren't one who earned it this year. You played your heart out. But, you have some teammates who, I don't care if they don't take criticism well, deserve to be criticized.

Mags doesn't like being told to stop overswinging and to just drive the ball? Buh Bye Mags.

Frank doesn't like being told to stop tinkering with his swing and stop swinging for the fences? Buh Bye Frank.

Paulie doesn't like being told he sucked this year? Buh Bye Paulie

This team is loaded with underachievers and crybabies. I don't think we should tolerate it for one more minute. Bring in Backman and let him and Kenny W build a team around guys who want to win as bad as all of us do. Get rid of the stathounds and the lazy players.

GoSox2K3
09-25-2003, 09:40 AM
What does Carl Everett care about the next Sox manager? I thought he was pretty much good as gone as a free agent this winter.

harwar
09-25-2003, 10:23 AM
I don't think that Everett is the one complaining.He takes criticism ok if you tell him straight up to his face and not behind his back.
Maybe the Sox are worried about a new manager because then the party is over.With JM they do what they want and if he doesn't like it,too bad.However:They don't need some guy yelling all the time who they don't respect,they need a guy like Torre or Panella.
Oh well,any change at the break would have been better.Look at the Marlins.After they changed managers in mid-season people were laughing at them for being buyers and not sellers.They are laughing no more as the Marlins are going to be the NL wildcard team.
Last night the boys on "baseball tonight" voted the White Sox "this years most disappointing team" and said that Joe Torre was very happy that he didn't have to face the White Sox in round one of the playoffs.

FJA
09-25-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Buh Bye Carl! You don't like criticism? Sorry - you weren't one who earned it this year. You played your heart out. But, you have some teammates who, I don't care if they don't take criticism well, deserve to be criticized.

Mags doesn't like being told to stop overswinging and to just drive the ball? Buh Bye Mags.

Frank doesn't like being told to stop tinkering with his swing and stop swinging for the fences? Buh Bye Frank.

Paulie doesn't like being told he sucked this year? Buh Bye Paulie

This team is loaded with underachievers and crybabies. I don't think we should tolerate it for one more minute. Bring in Backman and let him and Kenny W build a team around guys who want to win as bad as all of us do. Get rid of the stathounds and the lazy players.

I like your thinking, but the problem is that there are a hell of a lot of crybabies in MLB ... probably more crybabies than tough guys who are willing to take criticism (for the latter, see, in fact, a guy like Carl Everett, who I do hope we make an effort to keep ... he's a great guy to have around, but I think he'll be gone). I think bringing in Backman for a veteran team would be a big, big mistake, and I like Wally Backman. Backman should be the manager of an inevitable "Kids Can Play" movement a few years down the road. He'd be great for that, but remember: He's never managed at the major league level. Lou Pinella can get away with yelling at veterans because his record demands respect. Backman + veterans = chaos. I don't like that fact, but watch it happen if Backman gets hired. We need a guy like Joe Torre (who treats his clubhouse similarly to Manuel, but who knows how to run and motivate his field team better), or if we're going to get someone who stomps his feet and yells, someone like Pinella with a record you can't argue with.

hold2dibber
09-25-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by FJA
I like your thinking, but the problem is that there are a hell of a lot of crybabies in MLB ... probably more crybabies than tough guys who are willing to take criticism (for the latter, see, in fact, a guy like Carl Everett, who I do hope we make an effort to keep ... he's a great guy to have around, but I think he'll be gone). I think bringing in Backman for a veteran team would be a big, big mistake, and I like Wally Backman. Backman should be the manager of an inevitable "Kids Can Play" movement a few years down the road. He'd be great for that, but remember: He's never managed at the major league level. Lou Pinella can get away with yelling at veterans because his record demands respect. Backman + veterans = chaos. I don't like that fact, but watch it happen if Backman gets hired. We need a guy like Joe Torre (who treats his clubhouse similarly to Manuel, but who knows how to run and motivate his field team better), or if we're going to get someone who stomps his feet and yells, someone like Pinella with a record you can't argue with.

Agreed. I think Backman might be a good manager down the line, but I don't think this the right team for him to manage at this time. And this team doesn't need a screamer - they need someone who instills a sense or urgency and determination each and every game and who makes players accountable for their actions/production. Preferably, someone with a track record, like Jim Leyland, Davey Johnson or possibly Fregosi.

joecrede
09-25-2003, 10:37 AM
I don't want Buddy Bell anywhere near the dugout.

pudge
09-25-2003, 12:11 PM
Read Carl Everett's comments carefully... he's saying there are "others" who can't take criticism. I think that's a knock on the guys in the clubhouse. Everett is a gamer. I actually hope we can keep him.

Whoever made the above comment needs to shutup. I hope they do get someone who will get in the players' face, because that's obviously what they need.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2003, 12:25 PM
Who the next manager is will determine the make up of the team (that and how much money Uncle Jerry will allow to be spent...)

As for the comment about getting cheap, young, hungry players who care about winning....that was Uncle Jerry's justification for the White Flag Trade (remember sic 'our surveys said Sox fans want a team that plays hard and gets their unifroms dirty etc...'

That didn't work out so well did it? (i.e. 1998, 1999) based on actual attendence.

Be careful what you wish for...you might get it.

Lip

hold2dibber
09-25-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
As for the comment about getting cheap, young, hungry players who care about winning....that was Uncle Jerry's justification for the White Flag Trade (remember sic 'our surveys said Sox fans want a team that plays hard and gets their unifroms dirty etc...'

That didn't work out so well did it? (i.e. 1998, 1999) based on actual attendence.

Be careful what you wish for...you might get it.

Lip

Amen!

LASOXFAN
09-25-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by idseer
"Backman has a reputation for being a fiery guy who has no problem confronting players. While Backman wasn't mentioned by name Wednesday, several Sox players warned that if the front office is serious about keeping the core of the current roster together, replacing Manuel with a confrontational manager would be a bad direction to go. Real bad, according to outfielder Carl Everett.
"I figure it would do a lot worse," Everett said. "I figure we would do a lot worse because we have some guys in here that don't take criticism well ."

if this is true then i hope the team is gutted. trash the whole lot and let's have a nice cheap team that cares about what they're doing whether they win or lose. :angry:

I am so with you on this point. Screw these guys.

JC456
09-25-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Buh Bye Carl! You don't like criticism? Sorry - you weren't one who earned it this year. You played your heart out. But, you have some teammates who, I don't care if they don't take criticism well, deserve to be criticized.

Mags doesn't like being told to stop overswinging and to just drive the ball? Buh Bye Mags.

Frank doesn't like being told to stop tinkering with his swing and stop swinging for the fences? Buh Bye Frank.

Paulie doesn't like being told he sucked this year? Buh Bye Paulie

This team is loaded with underachievers and crybabies. I don't think we should tolerate it for one more minute. Bring in Backman and let him and Kenny W build a team around guys who want to win as bad as all of us do. Get rid of the stathounds and the lazy players.

I worry that no one on this team is a true team player. Crede, pretty much keeps to himself, couldn't even make a nice comment about the fans who attended every home game as Crede's Crew and rooted directly for him. I'm not saying the players need to get along outside of the park either, I am saying they need to understand their roles to the team, and I don't think that was ever designed. With all of the lineup changes and personnel moves this clubhouse to me was in disarray. It showed in their inconsistent play. The number of scoreless innings.

Hell, if it wasn't for a big inning in most games they won, they would have lost as many as Detroit. This team was managed poorly and maybe the players would have to step back to see it. There are way too many issues with this team. Losing three years in a row to Minnesota, a team that was considered for contraction two years ago. The Sox have lost to that team two years straight since. I'd be embarrassed as an owner to lose two years in a row to team headed for contraction. Maybe the wrong team is on that list Mr. Reinsdorf.

LASOXFAN
09-25-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Buh Bye Carl! You don't like criticism? Sorry - you weren't one who earned it this year. You played your heart out. But, you have some teammates who, I don't care if they don't take criticism well, deserve to be criticized.

Mags doesn't like being told to stop overswinging and to just drive the ball? Buh Bye Mags.

Frank doesn't like being told to stop tinkering with his swing and stop swinging for the fences? Buh Bye Frank.

Paulie doesn't like being told he sucked this year? Buh Bye Paulie

This team is loaded with underachievers and crybabies. I don't think we should tolerate it for one more minute. Bring in Backman and let him and Kenny W build a team around guys who want to win as bad as all of us do. Get rid of the stathounds and the lazy players.

Can I get an Amen!

fuzzy_patters
09-25-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Southtown reporting that JM has already been informed of his impending fate. Not surprising since it would be tacky to fire your manager on the road.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/251sd2.htm


NYSF

Of the managers listed in the article, I would prefer Cito Gaston. He seems pretty laid back, like Manual, so the players shouldn't rebel against him. On the other hand, Gaston's teams have won the World Series twice. That is evidence that his teams don't choke under pressure.

jeremyb1
09-25-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Of the managers listed in the article, I would prefer Cito Gaston. He seems pretty laid back, like Manual, so the players shouldn't rebel against him. On the other hand, Gaston's teams have won the World Series twice. That is evidence that his teams don't choke under pressure.

Yeah Gaston is one of the few guys I prefer over Backman. The bottom line is I don't want to see a proven loser brought in here.

Irishsox1
09-25-2003, 01:51 PM
It always surprises me when a loser manager or coach is canned, the players always blame them self and that they don't want him to go. Then they bring in a good coach/manager who starts winning and everyone says how the new coach is dedicated to winning, bla..bla...bla. If they players don't like who the Sox pick, then they should quit or holdout.

idseer
09-25-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Who the next manager is will determine the make up of the team (that and how much money Uncle Jerry will allow to be spent...)

As for the comment about getting cheap, young, hungry players who care about winning....that was Uncle Jerry's justification for the White Flag Trade (remember sic 'our surveys said Sox fans want a team that plays hard and gets their unifroms dirty etc...'

That didn't work out so well did it? (i.e. 1998, 1999) based on actual attendence.

Be careful what you wish for...you might get it.

Lip

if the shoe fits (re jr's justification)! if jerry's teams always reach a point of apathy about the game then white flag em ... every time!
the fact is nothing jerry has ever done has EVER worked out so well. and it's not about to change imo. so given the choice i'd like to see new blood in here. the old ones make me tired.

A.T. Money
09-25-2003, 02:20 PM
The reason the Sox don't want Manuel to leave is because he runs a damn country club. The players are spoiled as hell. Maybe they need a drill sargeant to whip em back into shape.

As for the loser that said there would be mutiny if Backman was brought in, I'd like to see him say that to Reinsdorf's face.

Win1ForMe
09-25-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
The reason the Sox don't want Manuel to leave is because he runs a damn country club. The players are spoiled as hell. Maybe they need a drill sargeant to whip em back into shape.

As for the loser that said there would be mutiny if Backman was brought in, I'd like to see him say that to Reinsdorf's face.

I think if the Sox end up going with Backman that will be a huge mistake. I don't understand why people equate a "fiery" manager with motivation. Those are two completely different things. Ask the Phillies how motivated they were by Larry Bowa this year?

Better yet, ask Sox players to tell you how fired up they were with Sarge as their hitting coach. This is not a team that responds to the Bowa/Backman types.

foulkesfan11
09-25-2003, 06:34 PM
It's about darn time! Now.... To Celebrate!!! :gulp:

SouthBendSox
09-25-2003, 06:47 PM
Sadly- if you wish to take that tack, I think Carl is pretty damn right. The Sox don't need a confrontational manager, they just need someone that actually cares about winning.

There is a difference.

Someone that gets off on yelling at players-- often publicly-- is a really bad choice for a veteran team.

You know what- Mags, Colon and Frank really don't need to be yelled at.

y'all crazy

PaleHoseGeorge
09-25-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by SouthBendSox
...You know what- Mags, Colon and Frank really don't need to be yelled at.

y'all crazy

I doubt in-your-face managers are good for any professional sports team, including young ones. I know nothing about Backman as a manager (I know he was a redass as a ballplayer), but he sounds like exactly what this team doesn't need.

I do think at least one ballplayer needs to be treated with tough love, and that is Jon Garland. I base this on his continued trouble thinking smart on the mound. He's a special case.

Whoever the Sox hire, I hope he has some previous ML managerial experience and knows the American League's players. The last thing we need is another National League on-the-job trainee that needs at least a year just to learn the opposing players, and God knows how much additional time to figure out his new job responsibilities.

After Lamont, Bevington, and Manuel, is this too much for a Sox Fan to ask for?

Jjav829
09-25-2003, 07:18 PM
I would guess those comments by Everett are being directed at Frank. Why even bother bringing a manager in then? We might as well just let the team run themselves since they obviously don't need to be told anything.

RKMeibalane
09-25-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
I would guess those comments by Everett are being directed at Frank. Why even bother bringing a manager in then? We might as well just let the team run themselves since they obviously don't need to be told anything.

I agree. The players seem to be doing their own thing these days. Frank, Maggs, and Carlos have spent the entire second half playing home run derby. Garland was complaining earlier this week about being skipped in the rotation, which Manuel had said was a possibility. Add that to fact that Mark Buehrle just doesn't want to be here.

If I had to guess, I think Buehrle was the one who said there would be a revolt if Backman became the manager.

TornLabrum
09-25-2003, 08:48 PM
You don't have to be an in-your-face kind of guy to let it be known that you're in charge.

I would think that players who hit selfishly, are lolligaggers, etc. could be easily convinced to do exactly what the manager wants them to do.

All you do is make an example of the first guy who tries to undermine your authority. Riding the pine or even being traded to the Montreal/San Juan Expos might convince the others that you mean business.

No yelling necessary.