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SoxxoS
09-24-2003, 12:24 PM
Maggs is a big time player. No doubt.

HOWEVER. He is owed...what...14 million next year? That is an awful lot of money, money that could be allocated to other resources.

We have Jeremy Reed and Joe Borchard. With the way Carlos played this year, I am not so sure his spot is the corner outfield spot I want to give up...

There is a lot a team could do with $14 million, include help ship Konerko out of here by paying part of his salary. Not to mention what resigning we have to do with arbitration and whatnot.

Not to mention that quality of talent we would get for a player like Maggs. We are talking at least the team we are trading with two top prospects. One of those guys should be a top 10-15 prospect. The other guy a top 40. Maybe a SS or catcher...

So, I ask you-Is Maggs tradeable?

mandmandm
09-24-2003, 12:38 PM
YES

Randar68
09-24-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
So, I ask you-Is Maggs tradeable?



Is Maggs tradeable??? Yes. We went over this a little in a thread earlier this week. Trading Maggs opens up a TON of possibilities in terms of flexibility. How'd you like ot have a Nic Johnson type player and a couple prospects? You could deal Konerko, as you say.


With some of the hitters this team has, they need more OBP guys, not more power guys. 1 and 2-run HR's don't cut it. Speed and OBP are the two most glaring needs of this team.

jabrch
09-24-2003, 12:43 PM
In the right deal, nobody on this team is untouchable. A top 10 and a top 40 prospect who are both major league ready...I'd have to consider that...

If we did it, I'd want to use 6 of it for Frank and the rest for Colon. I would not want to see us buy out too much of Konerko and waste a big chunk of $$$ that way.

Randar68
09-24-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
In the right deal, nobody on this team is untouchable. A top 10 and a top 40 prospect who are both major league ready...I'd have to consider that...

If we did it, I'd want to use 6 of it for Frank and the rest for Colon. I would not want to see us buy out too much of Konerko and waste a big chunk of $$$ that way.


Pitching is definitely a need here. Reed will probably be able to come in and contribute. Filling that other OF spot is a little less certain if you trade Maggs, as LTP isn't ready. You could probably sign a decent veteran though. Robbie and Jose would likely stay...

I don't know. I'm torn, and I think unless it was a real blockbuster-type deal, it would definitely alienate a lot of fans. From that aspect alone, it's a bad move unless it's the kind of deal that takes you to the next level and the Sox start next season on fire...

As usual, Wins cure all.

jabrch
09-24-2003, 12:52 PM
Whatever we do, some of the fans will be mad. I don't see a scenario where we can keep both Frank and Mags and still be competitive. 30MM tied into a RF and 2 DH/1B is a lot of money in a 60mm budget. I assume we can't move PK without taking on equally ****ty money in contracts, so lets say he, or some other turd is staying. I'd rather move Mags cuz we could get something for him. Since moving Frank means letting him depart as a FA, I would rather not go that route unless we had to.

Rocky Soprano
09-24-2003, 12:52 PM
No he is not!

I say we build the team around him.

Now Konerko, I would probably take a bucket of new baseballs for him.

Rocky Soprano
09-24-2003, 12:53 PM
First of all we need to stop thinking about a 60M budget. That needs to come up at least to 80M for us to compete. If that doesnt happen then we are NEVER going to win.

jabrch
09-24-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
No he is not!

I say we build the team around him.

Now Konerko, I would probably take a bucket of new baseballs for him.

Not only would nobody give you a bucket of baseballs for that contract, you would not even be able to give him away for free WITH a bucket of baseballs. $8MM for this guy... PaulieDP is ours next year - I'd be willing to be it...

Medford Bobby
09-24-2003, 01:02 PM
If Da Sox plan on not keeping Frank, then we should keep Magg's bat. Who will be the 30 plus HR guys if Hurt, Maggs and you dump Paulie too be??????



:hawk "I can't imagine saying"YES" anymore!!!!!!!!!!"

Hokiesox
09-24-2003, 01:09 PM
Maggs will be traded. This season, I bought a personalized jersey with his name and number on it. While I have no experience with baseball, I bought a Roenick jersey and he was "traded" the next off season. So, I went and bought a Chelios jersey. Same thing... I bought a Maggs jersey during this season.....

HE GONE!

I don't want him gone...but...

ALTHOUGH: I bought a Tyler Arnason jersey last season (picked specifically because I felt he would be the least likely to be let go, and could be around a while...shoulda taken a Ruutu jersey) and he wasn't let go...so, who knows if jersey-gate still holds...

Deadguy
09-24-2003, 01:16 PM
14 million is fair market value for a legitimate franchise player and MVP candidate.

Magglio is a legitimate franchise player, and the Sox offered him this contract with the intent to keep him here, and I expect they will.

If we can't afford to give player's fair market value, there is no way this franchise will ever maintain a certain level of competitiveness in this current baseball economic environment.

Wasting money on guys like Koch and Konerko is our biggest problem.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-24-2003, 01:30 PM
I am dead-set against rebuilding. In fact, I'm never in favor of tearing apart a team if it means eliminating good ballplayers in hopes of building a better team several years down the line. That **** never works, especially for a team as cheap, timid, and stupid as the Sox. 86 years and counting...

But the question at hand is whether I would trade Maggs. I have one simple answer: it depends.

If the Sox are SERIOUS ABOUT WINNING, and willing to inflate payroll to at least $80 million, we should TRADE MAGGLIO. With that kind of headroom in our payroll budget, the Sox can easily fill the holes in both the pitching staff and the everyday lineup. Williams has earned enough respect from me to be trusted to make the right moves. Adding a competent new Sox manager will put us over the top in this garbage heap division we play in, too.

Now the flipside.

If the Sox are NOT SERIOUS ABOUT WINNING, and remain stubborn about limiting payroll to less than $80 million we should KEEP MAGGLIO. It is too much a pipedream to think the Sox will be able to re-sign all the ballplayers we need or that KW can do another series of shoestring deals to fill holes. Trading a popular ballplayer like Magglio would only serve to piss off Sox fans and further erode team revenues the year following the ASG bubble. Given such foolish payroll restrictions, we aren't going to win jack without Magglio, so we might as keep him. At least the fans won't be too alienated by (yet) another losing season. 87 years and waiting...


Simple, isn't it?

:)

Randar68
09-24-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
14 million is fair market value for a legitimate franchise player and MVP candidate.

Magglio is a legitimate franchise player, and the Sox offered him this contract with the intent to keep him here, and I expect they will.

If we can't afford to give player's fair market value, there is no way this franchise will ever maintain a certain level of competitiveness in this current baseball economic environment.

Wasting money on guys like Koch and Konerko is our biggest problem.



Is Maggs ever going to hit 45 HR's or drive in 140 runs? I would bet against it. His OBP isn't outstanding, either.

Frankly, I don't consider Maggs to be a "Franchise Player." I don't want to minimize his value, because I like him a lot, but I don't think you can afford to spend 14 million on him...

I'd spend 14 million on at least 15-20 other position players in the game today before I would on Maggs. Just the way it is, sadly.



Who here wouldn't rather have Brian Giles then Maggs???? I think you'd be an idiot not to. Giles' OBP is always in the .430 range, he runs better and has been in the 30-40 HR department for like 6 straight years, IIRC. How much does he make???? And we're paying Maggs 14 million next season??? Ouch.


Strictly for Bat, I'd really rather have Nic Johnson than Maggs. With guys like Carlos and Frank and Jose and Crede, you really need to have guys on base. It's that simple. Frank and Carlos could hit 60 HR's but it doesn't do much if 75% of those are solo shots.

Paulwny
09-24-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Is Maggs tradeable??? Yes. We went over this a little in a thread earlier this week. Trading Maggs opens up a TON of possibilities in terms of flexibility. How'd you like ot have a Nic Johnson type player and a couple prospects? You could deal Konerko, as you say.


Why would NY take Maggs at $14 mil and Konerko at $8mil plus give up Johnson ?
It's easier for them to offer Vlad $22 mil , keep Johnson and not be stuck with Konerko.

Randar68
09-24-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Why would NY take Maggs at $14 mil and Konerko at $8mil plus give up Johnson ?
It's easier for them to offer Vlad $22 mil , keep Johnson and not be stuck with Konerko.


Where did I say that NY would be taking Konerko?

Paulwny
09-24-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Where did I say that NY would be taking Konerko?

I'm reading too much between the lines.

maurice
09-24-2003, 01:54 PM
I raised this issue a couple of weeks ago and am on record as favoring it from a baseball standpoint but questioning it from a PR standpoint. I agree with PHG. Losing Maggs in a salary dump would blow. OTOH, trading Maggs for a good SS prospect, and then using the $14 mil to get a Luis Castillo and to help bring back Colon, Everett, and the bullpen would be fabulous. I like Robbie, but he can't hit any more. Castillo is a huge upgrade at 2B, and a better SS would help this team immensely.

1. Castillo - 2B
2. Lee - LF
3. Thomas - 1B/DH
4. Everett - RF
5. Konerko - DH/1B
6. Crede - 3B
7. Reed/Rowand/LTP - CF
8. Olivo - C
9. New SS

Not a bad lineup.

jabrch
09-24-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Why would NY take Maggs at $14 mil and Konerko at $8mil plus give up Johnson ?
It's easier for them to offer Vlad $22 mil , keep Johnson and not be stuck with Konerko.

Of course they wont. People keep talking about dumping Konerko. It isn't that easy. We will be stuck with him unless we are willing to eat a chunk of that deal - JR will never do that...

PaleHoseGeorge
09-24-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Of course they wont. People keep talking about dumping Konerko. It isn't that easy. We will be stuck with him unless we are willing to eat a chunk of that deal - JR will never do that...

If Reinsdorf is too cheap, timid, and stupid to know better, he'll keep Konerko for the exact reasons you note.

We simply cannot afford to keep Paul Konerko. We ought to PAY for the privilege of dumping him and his albatross salary.

"A penny saved, is a penny earned."
--Ben Franklin

"A million saved, is a million earned."
--PHG

soxtalker
09-24-2003, 03:48 PM
Regarding Mags. I think that he's popular, but it all depends on what we get in return. Ozzie Guillen, a promising young SS, came at the price of La Marr Hoyt, our top pitcher.

I guess that I have a different perspective than most on this board. I'm not terribly opposed to rebuilding. Unless you have the resources of the NY Yankees, you probably have to do it sometime. I'm not convinced that we have to do it now, but, then again, it might be a good time to do it. (Sell when some of our players are most marketable.) Of course, all the press reports indicate that KW does not anticipate doing so.

jeremyb1
09-24-2003, 04:18 PM
What you have to consider in today's financial climate is that if it makes sense for your team to deal a player for financial purposes, it most likely doesn't make sense for most teams to acquire that player. $14 million dollars is quite a bit of money. I can assure you there wouldn't be a lot of teams bidding for Maggs at that price, driving up his value. At best you'd end up with a salary dump situation where only one or two teams such as the Yankees would be able to take on that kind of salary and as a result we'd get very little in return. Perhaps that makes sense if we decide its Maggs or Bartolo and we'd rather have Bart but otherwise, I don't see the point.

soxtalker
09-24-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
What you have to consider in today's financial climate is that if it makes sense for your team to deal a player for financial purposes, it most likely doesn't make sense for most teams to acquire that player. $14 million dollars is quite a bit of money. I can assure you there wouldn't be a lot of teams bidding for Maggs at that price, driving up his value. At best you'd end up with a salary dump situation where only one or two teams such as the Yankees would be able to take on that kind of salary and as a result we'd get very little in return. Perhaps that makes sense if we decide its Maggs or Bartolo and we'd rather have Bart but otherwise, I don't see the point.

And has anyone gotten a sense from Colon that he'd like to be back here next year as his first choice (money being equal)? Seems to be a general assumption or that we can simply outbid everyone else. If I recall correctly, Colon hasn't won a championship yet. That might be a factor, and I'm not sure that the Sox are the team he'd want to bet on.

Mags might be a different story. He's been here his whole career and is generally loved by the fans and media.

Gumshoe
09-24-2003, 04:30 PM
YOu have to be a DAMN fool to drop Maggs and keep Frank. But what do I know, I think you are a DAMN fool to keep Frank under any circumstances, if you want to win. Build around a REAL player like Maggs

Gumshoe

maurice
09-24-2003, 04:54 PM
Frankly, the reason I thought of trading Maggs was because the arguments in the "dump Frank" threads really applied with equal or greater force to Maggs.

Like Frank, Maggs is a power hitter without exceptional speed who plays mediocre defense at a crowded position, posts a good OBP, and is not known as a team leader. In addition, Maggs makes much more money than Frank, has produced less offense than Frank this season, and would bring something of value in return. Finally, Maggs run-when-I-feel-like-it attitude and GiDP total has bugged the hell out of me all season. Everett is a much cheaper alternative and allows the Sox to spend more money at vital positions, such as pitching and middle infield.

Gumshoe
09-24-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Frankly, the reason I thought of trading Maggs was because the arguments in the "dump Frank" threads really applied with equal or greater force to Maggs.

Like Frank, Maggs is a power hitter without exceptional speed who plays mediocre defense at a crowded position, posts a good OBP, and is not known as a team leader. In addition, Maggs makes much more money than Frank, has produced less offense than Frank this season, and would bring something of value in return. Finally, Maggs run-when-I-feel-like-it attitude and GiDP total has bugged the hell out of me all season. Everett is a much cheaper alternative and allows the Sox to spend more money at vital positions, such as pitching and middle infield.

maurice:

I normally agree with your thoughts, but you really must have lost your noodle. Everett? Maggs is MUCH better than average defensively, at least a 7 on a 10 scale while Everett is old and a 4 at BEST --I'd rather have Rowand, any day of the year regarding cheap good players.

I suppose the next thing you are going to tell me, oh yea suckers of neyer and bill james pee-pee, is that Carlos Lee sucks because he doesn't walk. He only went .290 30-115 with 18 SB and solid D ... oh yeah, but he doesn't walk, so he sucks, he has NO future

Gumshoe

ps - frank is a cancer. Maggs does what he needs to and NEVER talks. Good for him. While the gdip is bothersome at times, he is a top 5 hitter in the entire game AND he steals bases. To say that frank is near him in baserunning or speed is preposterous.

Randar68
09-24-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
maurice:

I normally agree with your thoughts, but you really must have lost your noodle. Everett? Maggs is MUCH better than average defensively, at least a 7 on a 10 scale while Everett is old and a 4 at BEST --I'd rather have Rowand, any day of the year regarding cheap good players.

I suppose the next thing you are going to tell me, oh yea suckers of neyer and bill james pee-pee, is that Carlos Lee sucks because he doesn't walk. He only went .290 30-115 with 18 SB and solid D ... oh yeah, but he doesn't walk, so he sucks, he has NO future

Gumshoe

ps - frank is a cancer. Maggs does what he needs to and NEVER talks. Good for him. While the gdip is bothersome at times, he is a top 5 hitter in the entire game AND he steals bases. To say that frank is near him in baserunning or speed is preposterous.


As usual for a GummyBear post:

:whoflungpoo

PaleHoseGeorge
09-24-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
...I suppose the next thing you are going to tell me, oh yea suckers of neyer and bill james pee-pee, is that Carlos Lee sucks because he doesn't walk. He only went .290 30-115 with 18 SB and solid D ... oh yeah, but he doesn't walk, so he sucks, he has NO future

Let me guess... that prescription your nurse gave you finally ran out?

Randar68
09-24-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Let me guess... that prescription your nurse gave you finally ran out?

There are times when I still wish they had an age restriction on the internet. This guy can't be more than 16.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-24-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
There are times when I still wish they had an age restriction on the internet. This guy can't be more than 16.

West and his engineer buddies are working on this right now. We've volunteered WSI for the beta test. You'll see it when we roll out flyingsock 4.0.

:)

maurice
09-24-2003, 05:30 PM
For no apparent reason, I'll try to make this as respectful as possible:

1. IMHO, Maggs is not a very good defensive RF. He has pretty good range when he feels like it and a less than ideal arm for a RF. Everett would do about the same or better in RF.

2. The question I posed isn't Everett or Rowand, it's Everett (plus a bundle of cash) or Maggs. Under the idea we're floating, you'd get to keep Rowand (for what that's worth).

3. I only read what Neyer posts on ESPN.com, which often is moderately interesting. I've never read anything written by Bill James.

4. I like Carlos Lee. Maggs is good, but he's not worth twice as much money as Lee, Frank, or Everett.

5. IMHO, there's no evidence that Maggs has been more of a team leader this season than Frank. Maggs seems quiet, because English is not his first language, not because of some leadership strategy on his part.

6. There are more than 5 hitters in MLB who are better hitters than Maggs.

7. Maggs is 9-for-14 in SBs this year. He was 7-for-12 last year. Those numbers are not indicative of a person who helps his team by stealing bases. Getting caught stealing and GIDP are very nasty ways of eliminating baserunners who already have reached base.

MisterB
09-24-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by maurice
7. Maggs is 9-for-14 in SBs this year. He was 7-for-12 last year. Those numbers are not indicative of a person who helps his team by stealing bases. Getting caught stealing and GIDP are very nasty ways of eliminating baserunners who already have reached base.

And he was 25 of 32 in '01 and 18 of 22 in 2000. It's not common for a middle of the order hitter to be a stolen base threat, let alone have the green light all the time. Maggs is fully capable of stealing bases, but Manuel only lets him loose if the offense is struggling (like 2001). Maybe a new manager will take advantage of it. BTW, Maggs ground into 28 DP's in 2000 (he has 20 now), yet no one was complaining about it then because he was still driving in runs and the team was winning. Your other points are wll taken, though: Maggs will be overpaid next year.

dougs78
09-24-2003, 06:19 PM
I would just like to point out one thing about Maggs contract. Its not as if this sudden leap was somehow unexpected. If memory serves me correctly Maggs signed a 3 year contract that looked like this:

2002: 6 million
2003: 10 million
2004: 14 million

Now, the point I'm trying to make here is that Maggs has been underpaid. Without a doubt in 2002 and probably this year as well. This is a 10 million per contract for all intents and purposes. It just so happens that JR backloaded it. I'm sure this was done not to allow more flexibility for the past two years' payroll, but to allow JR to sit on the money and earn interest. I have no idea how much 4 million dollars earns sitting in investments over the course of 2 years, but I'm sure there is some financially savvy person on here that does.

Basically my point is that JR has already come out ahead in this deal. Although I would not put it past him to draw those advantages and then ditch out now that the price is high, I really think this is not as big of a deal.

I assume that for the most part teams (owners and GM's) are not looking at year to year payroll as we do, but payroll over the course of 3 year cycles. I could be wrong in this, but that has always been my assumption. After all, who runs a business without a thought well into the future.

Nick@Nite
09-24-2003, 07:40 PM
No

jeremyb1
09-24-2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
YOu have to be a DAMN fool to drop Maggs and keep Frank. But what do I know, I think you are a DAMN fool to keep Frank under any circumstances, if you want to win. Build around a REAL player like Maggs

Gumshoe

Thing is Frank's production matches Maggs this season and he'll make less than half what Maggs will next season.

Viva Magglio
09-24-2003, 08:56 PM
Would I trade Maggs? To quote Danny DeVito from the movie Ruthless People, "Are you out of your [bleeping] mind!!!?

soxwon
09-24-2003, 09:03 PM
the sox better not dare Trade Maggs.
trade Frank and Konerko and valentin for arod
maggs is the best rf out there.
trade those 3 and get Schilling and AROD
and Tony Larussa will win us a championship

joecrede
09-24-2003, 09:19 PM
The quickest way for this team to get better is to deal Ordonez and I believe it will happen.

Viva Magglio
09-24-2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The quickest way for this team to get better is to deal Ordonez and I believe it will happen.

Trading Maggs would be ten times worse than the White Flag Trade from a PR standpoint. Among other things, we need Maggs' presence to counterbalance the Prince of Evil on the North Side.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-24-2003, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Trading Maggs would be ten times worse than the White Flag Trade from a PR standpoint. Among other things, we need Maggs' presence to counterbalance the Prince of Evil on the North Side.

If we're SERIOUS about winning (i.e. raising our payroll limit), we would be idiots not to trade Magglio. We can afford everything we need--including his replacement.

If we're just trying to keep the fans happy, limiting payroll while finishing behind Minnesota again, keep Magglio around. He's good for the gate.

Daver
09-24-2003, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If we're SERIOUS about winning (i.e. raising our payroll limit), we would be idiots not to trade Magglio. We can afford everything we need--including his replacement.

If we're just trying to keep the fans happy, limiting payroll while finishing behind Minnesota again, keep Magglio around. He's good for the gate.



BINGO!

Dadawg_77
09-24-2003, 09:41 PM
Look no one is saying trade Mags for a bag of balls, but for some grade AAA steak. What if the Cubs were willing to trade Mags for Prior? I would do that in a heart beat, and I expect most people would to. I am not, nor do I think most people here are, we need to get rid of Mags, but that there maybe a better way if Mags was traded. Mags isn't Bonds or A Rod, and while he is a great player, he is replaceable.

Thunderstruck30
09-24-2003, 09:41 PM
NO!!!!! Keep Mags, hes the fan favorite and one of the best players in the game. Get rid of anyone else before you get rid of him.

Viva Magglio
09-24-2003, 09:43 PM
What the hell is this? You guys want to dump our team's most popular player thinking it's the only way to really upgrade our team? I'm sorry, but I think you're all nuts.

Daver
09-24-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I'm sorry, but I think you're all nuts.

And we're glad your not the GM of the Sox........

MarkEdward
09-24-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The quickest way for this team to get better is to deal Ordonez and I believe it will happen.

Um, how does trading your best hitter make your team better again?

Viva Magglio
09-24-2003, 10:19 PM
HELLO??? Have you guys suddenly developed a hatred for Mágglio or something??? Mágglio is our FRANCHISE PLAYER. And I cannot believe that some of you guys want to get rid of him and keep Frank!!! Frank is on the downside of his career; Magglio is around his prime. If you are still attached to Frank, you're living in the past. I say let Frank go. This is 2003, not 1993.

WE NO NOT NEED TO TRADE MAGGLIO IN ORDER TO PUT OUR TEAM OVER THE TOP!!! It seems like you are looking at petty little stats to make Ordóńez look as effective as Royce Clayton to make an excuse for getting rid of him. Of course I would like him to reduce the number of double plays he hits into, but you are missing the big point in that Mágglio gets the job done.

If you think we can peddle Mágglio away and that the great Joe Borchard will just come along and hit lights out, you're drillrods.

Daver
09-24-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
HELLO??? Have you guys suddenly developed a hatred for Mágglio or something??? Mágglio is our FRANCHISE PLAYER. And I cannot believe that some of you guys want to get rid of him and keep Frank!!! Frank is on the downside of his career; Magglio is around his prime. If you are still attached to Frank, you're living in the past. I say let Frank go. This is 2003, not 1993.

WE NO NOT NEED TO TRADE MAGGLIO IN ORDER TO PUT OUR TEAM OVER THE TOP!!! It seems like you are looking at petty little stats to make Ordóńez look as effective as Royce Clayton to make an excuse for getting rid of him. Of course I would like him to reduce the number of double plays he hits into, but you are missing the big point in that Mágglio gets the job done.

If you think we can peddle Mágglio away and that the great Joe Borchard will just come along and hit lights out, you're drillrods.


Based on his stats this season is he a 14 mil ballplayer?

Frank has similar numbers and costs half that.

Welcome to baseball economics,luxury tax style.

cornball
09-24-2003, 10:51 PM
Everyone on this team can be had for the right price. I am not in favor of trading front line players for prospects. A trade has to help this team now. Baseball economics, yes and it means for the present ...the future is never guarenteed.

joecrede
09-24-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Um, how does trading your best hitter make your team better again?

$14M is a salary reserved for the very top echelon of players. Ordonez is a very good player, but he is not on that level.

joecrede
09-24-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
HELLO??? Have you guys suddenly developed a hatred for Mágglio or something??? Mágglio is our FRANCHISE PLAYER. And

Ordonez has proven that he cannot carry a team.

SoxxoS
09-24-2003, 11:49 PM
One of the most UNCLUTCH players I have ever seen.

JRIG
09-24-2003, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by joecrede


Ordonez has proven that he cannot carry a team.


Originally posted by SoxxoS
One of the most UNCLUTCH players I have ever seen.

Ordonez:

2003 RISP: .313/.380/.556
2003 Close and Late: .425/.483/.613

2002 RISP: .317/.408/.600
2002 Close and Late: .258/.378/.484

I'm not completely against trading Mags because there's a great chance he will underperform his $14 million contract, unlike Framk, who will more than likely outperform his $6 or 8 million contract. But to call Mags "unclutch" doesn't seem to make sense. Someone isn't "unclutch" because you remember 2 or 3 times when he didn't come through with a big hit.

voodoochile
09-25-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
HELLO??? Have you guys suddenly developed a hatred for Mágglio or something??? Mágglio is our FRANCHISE PLAYER. And I cannot believe that some of you guys want to get rid of him and keep Frank!!! Frank is on the downside of his career; Magglio is around his prime. If you are still attached to Frank, you're living in the past. I say let Frank go. This is 2003, not 1993.

WE NO NOT NEED TO TRADE MAGGLIO IN ORDER TO PUT OUR TEAM OVER THE TOP!!! It seems like you are looking at petty little stats to make Ordóńez look as effective as Royce Clayton to make an excuse for getting rid of him. Of course I would like him to reduce the number of double plays he hits into, but you are missing the big point in that Mágglio gets the job done.

If you think we can peddle Mágglio away and that the great Joe Borchard will just come along and hit lights out, you're drillrods.

No one is saying that Maggs isn't a great player. So slow down and take a breath. I haven't seen a single post that says he is anything short of great.

Most of the arguments for trading him are because of his $14M salary next year. You never answered the question that was propsed by another poster.

What if you could get 3 good players who collectively make as much as Maggs and fill 3 need positions without costing the team that much production in RF?

What if the Sox could get a leadoff SS, a CF with speed and a solid average and a #3 starter and still have money to resign Everett to play RF? Not saying that will happen, but can you afford to say no?

No one on this team should be considered untouchable and yes, I mean Frank too for the right offer.

LASOXFAN
09-25-2003, 12:09 AM
Mags spent last winter working out with A-Rod down in Florida. He's a very committed ball player and I think he was sucked down in he vortex of the first half like some others as well. Let's call the Vortex...Konerko, ok? Okay, that's not fair, but funny anyway. My point is this: Mags made up his mind and said he was going to have a much better second half, and he did it. That's big in my book.

I think he's going to bust out next year and with a new manager at the helm I think these guys are capable of feeling renewed and in search of a new identity. Let's hope it's a good one.


Keep Mags and he wins MVP in 2004.

I wish I could say Konerko would turn it around, but never forget what he said last year: "I'm not this good." Do we really want a guy like that?

RichH55
09-25-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
YOu have to be a DAMN fool to drop Maggs and keep Frank. But what do I know, I think you are a DAMN fool to keep Frank under any circumstances, if you want to win. Build around a REAL player like Maggs

Gumshoe

Can this at least qualify as a "Frank-Hater" sentiment?

RichH55
09-25-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by soxwon
the sox better not dare Trade Maggs.
trade Frank and Konerko and valentin for arod
maggs is the best rf out there.
trade those 3 and get Schilling and AROD
and Tony Larussa will win us a championship

Man with fans like this in bad times....what the hell do bandwagoners look like?

Viva Magglio
09-25-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Based on his stats this season is he a 14 mil ballplayer?

Frank has similar numbers and costs half that.

Welcome to baseball economics,luxury tax style.

Frank has similar numbers THIS YEAR. What about the future? Frank is five years older than Mágglio. Mágglio has several good more years in him. How many does Frank have? For the long term, you go with Mágglio and not Frank.

I am not convinced that "we could get 3 good players who collectively make as much as Maggs and fill 3 need positions without costing the team that much production in RF." There is no guarantee that such a move would work. Considering KW's track record on trades, such a move could wind up setting us back very badly.

$14M is what Mágglio deserves IMO. And he deserves the fans of his team to support him and not discard him as some pawn to peddle away for unguaranteed success down the road. His positives far outweigh his shortcomings, but it seems that you guys want to only highlight his shortcomings to base your argument to get rid of him.

If I put you in the WSI Time Machine and sent you back in time, I'd be willing to bet that you guys would have said in 1983 or 1984 "Let's trade Walter Payton or Mike Singletary because the Bears will get great draft picks for him and win the Super Bowl next season," or in 1989/1990 "Let's trade Michael Jordan because we can get enough for him to win NBA titles for years to come." Before you get all over me, I am not comparing Mágglio Ordóńez to Walter Payton, Mike Singletary, or Michael Jordan. But those players were the best on their respective teams, just like Mágglio is on ours.

mandmandm
09-25-2003, 11:13 AM
Jason Giambi was a franchise player for Oakland. Oakland lost their franchise player. Oakland is going to the playoffs. If you have a wise GM you get a lot in return for your franchise players and use the freed up money wisely it will make this team better. Chicago has a history of franchise players playing on teams that lost. I want to win it all. I could careless if my team has an MVP.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-25-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Jason Giambi was a franchise player for Oakland. Oakland lost their franchise player. Oakland is going to the playoffs. If you have a wise GM you get a lot in return for your franchise players and use the freed up money wisely it will make this team better. Chicago has a history of franchise players playing on teams that lost. I want to win it all. I could careless if my team has an MVP.

THANK YOU! Franchise ballplayers don't mean **** if the team is losing. If you want to feel warm and fuzzy about supporting your favorite ballplayer on a losing team, I can think of better teams to support than the Sox.

We have plenty of talent on our current roster to win this division and do damage in the playoffs. Unfortunately we don't have the money to pay them. If we're SERIOUS about winning, we need to raise the payroll limit and make some moves to fill some obvious holes. Trading Magglio is the simplest and most obvious way to do this. He will bring real, proven talent in trade, the $14 million savings on his salary gives us enormous flexibility to spend elsewhere, and his position (RF) is not too difficult to fill.

The key trade that made the Bulls champions (rather than also-rans) was trading Charles Oakley, the second-best ballplayer on the team after Jordan. The Bulls go nowhere without Bill Cartwright, and we had to give up a damned good ballplayer (Oakley) to get him.

Trade Maggs if we're serious about winning. If we're not serious, keep him around because lots of Sox Fans will slobber all over him. This thread is proving the point.

Paulwny
09-25-2003, 12:03 PM
Fox, Aparicio, Baines all fan favorites, all traded.
The bottom line, can the team improve.

Viva Magglio
09-25-2003, 12:03 PM
Yeah, let's trade Mágglio away. Nobody wants to see Mágglio leave Chicago more than Sammy Sosa. One of the best ways we have waged the fans' war against the Cubs is to highlight what good a person Mágglio is versus how much a JO that Sosa is. It would be just dandy to get rid of our popular and productive right fielder and leave Chicago alone to the Prince of Evil on the North Side.

Trading Mágglio is too drastic a means to try to upgrade our team, and there is no guarantee that such a trade would really upgrade our team. And how can you be certain that we won't win with Mágglio? Didn't we win in 2000 with him, despite our early playoff exit? In essence, you are blaming our lack of playoff runs on his presence. All summer long, most of us have been mainly blaming Jerry Manuel for our suckdom. Now, the previaling argument is "Let's trade Mágglio away because he costs us too much money and he's not good enough and we'll get players for him that will push us over the top." That would be a dangerous roll of the dice that could end up biting us in the arse. If Mágglio is traded, just watch how the rank-and-file fans of our team react. It won't be pretty. And what will we do when fans don't come out in 2004 giving JR an excuse to break up the team even further as a result?

MarkEdward
09-25-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Jason Giambi was a franchise player for Oakland. Oakland lost their franchise player. Oakland is going to the playoffs. If you have a wise GM you get a lot in return for your franchise players and use the freed up money wisely it will make this team better.

One problem with this scenario: Oakland has Billy Beane. We have Kenny Williams. Williams is no wise GM.

voodoochile
09-25-2003, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Yeah, let's trade Mágglio away. Nobody wants to see Mágglio leave Chicago more than Sammy Sosa. One of the best ways we have waged the fans' war against the Cubs is to highlight what good a person Mágglio is versus how much a JO that Sosa is. It would be just dandy to get rid of our popular and productive right fielder and leave Chicago alone to the Prince of Evil on the North Side.

Trading Mágglio is too drastic a means to try to upgrade our team, and there is no guarantee that such a trade would really upgrade our team. And how can you be certain that we won't win with Mágglio? Didn't we win in 2000 with him, despite our early playoff exit? In essence, you are blaming our lack of playoff runs on his presence. All summer long, most of us have been mainly blaming Jerry Manuel for our suckdom. Now, the previaling argument is "Let's trade Mágglio away because he costs us too much money and he's not good enough and we'll get players for him that will push us over the top." That would be a dangerous roll of the dice that could end up biting us in the arse. If Mágglio is traded, just watch how the rank-and-file fans of our team react. It won't be pretty.

Man, you need a paperbag. No one is saying that Maggs isn't talented, or that the team cannot win with him here. Who gives a crap about what ShamME thinks? You think Maggs being here or not being here is going to change the media's lovefest for everything ShamME?

No one is blaming the lack of playoffs on Maggs. However, if he eats up 25% of the payroll, and the Sox can't sign need positions because of it, then it is something to consider.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-25-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
One problem with this scenario: Oakland has Billy Beane. We have Kenny Williams. Williams is no wise GM.

It makes me nervous, too. Trading Magglio and filling holes is a job for a shrewd and astute GM. There is no way I would have trusted Kenny Williams with such a job last year. However, the guy has earned my respect for pulling off shoestring deals that got us Colon, Sullivan, Alomar, and Everett. I have to give the devil his due. It took some top-flight front office engineering to pull off those deals.

My days of bashing Kenny Williams are over... at least for now. :smile:

MarkEdward
09-25-2003, 12:35 PM
Hm, how about we try this. Let's look at other players who are making between thirteen and fifteen million dollars this year:

Chan Ho Park: $13,000,000
Raul Mondesi: $13,000,000
Juan Gonzalez: $13,000,000
Albert Belle: $13,000,000
Jeff Bagwell: $13,000,000
Chipper Jones: $13,333,333
Mike Hampton: $13,625,000
Greg Maddux: $14,750,000
Randy Johnson: $15,000,000
Pedro Martinez: $15,500,000
Barry Bonds: $15,500,000
Mike Piazza: $15,571,429
Derek Jeter: $15,600,000
Shawn Green: $15,666,667
Kevin Brown: $15,714,286

Now, let's compare Ordonez's season to those hitters on that list. I'll use OBP, SLG, and EQA, in that order:
Ordonez: .386/.558/.315
Mondesi: .379/.513/.291
Gonzalez: .329/.572/.291 (327 ABs)
Belle: DNP
Bagwell: .371/.514/.295
Jones: .402/.516/.314
Bonds: .527/.743/.418(!)
Piazza: .374/.482/.299 (226 ABs)
Jeter: .390/.447/.297
Green: .350/.448/.287

Well, looking at that list, it seems as though Magglio compares well to other high-paid players. In my opinion, he deserves that fourteen million this off-season. If he rapidly declines next year, we don't need to bring him back.

I've been thinking about trading Mags, and the only deal I'd do involves the Padres. Jake Peavy, Khalil Greene, and Xavier Nady for Ordonez.

Deadguy
09-25-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward


Well, looking at that list, it seems as though Magglio compares well to other high-paid players. In my opinion, he deserves that fourteen million this off-season. If he rapidly declines next year, we don't need to bring him back.



Exactly. 14 million is fair market value for what Magglio brings to this team. Same for Thomas at 8 million.

If we can't afford to give players fair market value, there is no way we can remain competitive.

maurice
09-25-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
And he was 25 of 32 in '01 and 18 of 22 in 2000.

These numbers are irrelevant to his expected future production. Talented players often steal bases early in their career and then stop. The list of such players is quite long. IIRC, none of these players suddenly started stealing bases again.

voodoochile
09-25-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Exactly. 14 million is fair market value for what Magglio brings to this team. Same for Thomas at 8 million.

If we can't afford to give players fair market value, there is no way we can remain competitive.

I disagree. How many $14M players do the A's have? How many do the Twinkies have?

Just because you are paying people fair market value doesn't mean you have to have high priced players. ARod is the best player in the game currently, so his contract while outrageous is probably pretty close to fair market value. Doe it make the Rangers better or worse when you factor in payroll constraints?

I agree that the Sox need to loosen up the purse strings and would love to see Maggs play his entire career in Chicago, but can it be done and keep the Sox competitive?

maurice
09-25-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Hm, how about we try this. Let's look at other players who are making between thirteen and fifteen million dollars this year:

Chan Ho Park: $13,000,000
Raul Mondesi: $13,000,000
Juan Gonzalez: $13,000,000
Albert Belle: $13,000,000
Jeff Bagwell: $13,000,000
Chipper Jones: $13,333,333
Mike Hampton: $13,625,000
Greg Maddux: $14,750,000
Randy Johnson: $15,000,000
Pedro Martinez: $15,500,000
Barry Bonds: $15,500,000
Mike Piazza: $15,571,429
Derek Jeter: $15,600,000
Shawn Green: $15,666,667
Kevin Brown: $15,714,286

Well, looking at that list, it seems as though Magglio compares well to other high-paid players.

Actually, it seems as though a lot of players are fantastically overpaid. Maybe three of those guys perform consistent with their salary, particularly if you look at their injury history. Meanwhile, they hurt their teams by reducing payroll flexibility. You also listed a lot of old contracts which do not represent the current (lower) market value for comparable FAs. The economics of baseball have changed dramatically in the past two years alone.

voodoochile
09-25-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I disagree. How many $14M players do the A's have? How many do the Twinkies have?

Just because you are paying people fair market value doesn't mean you have to have high priced players. ARod is the best player in the game currently, so his contract while outrageous is probably pretty close to fair market value. Doe it make the Rangers better or worse when you factor in payroll constraints?

I agree that the Sox need to loosen up the purse strings and would love to see Maggs play his entire career in Chicago, but can it be done and keep the Sox competitive?

Okay, Bonds is better than ARod. My bad...

PaleHoseGeorge
09-25-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by maurice
These numbers are irrelevant to his expected future production. Talented players often steal bases early in their career and then stop. The list of such players is quite long. IIRC, none of these players suddenly started stealing bases again.

Yes. And the more relevant question isn't answered by any of those numbers. The relevant question is how do the Sox afford to keep everything we need to be champions while paying $14 million to a rightfielder?

Nobody is answering that question besides those of us in favor of building a champion team with a higher payroll and trading Maggs.

We can keep Maggs. But we can't very well afford to keep Maggs and still expect to be champions, too. We've got to make payroll around here for more than rightfielders.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2003, 01:05 PM
For what it's worth Paul Ladewski in the Daily Southtown has a column today (Thursday) that looks at the same question that this thread is about, Mags...can the Sox keep him?

He envisions a scenario where the Sox do trade him for a top starting pitcher, front line shortstop and a top minor league prospect.

Lip

TraderTim
09-25-2003, 02:10 PM
Link to the article if you have one? Sounds like a good read...

Lip, do you think KW is staying put on the southside or is he gonna get moved up [or out] as well?

Forkit!

Viva Magglio
09-25-2003, 02:16 PM
Okay, since since some of you are hell-bent on trading Mágglio away, I want to know specifically where you would trade him and for whom. I want names of specific players you want in return for Mágglio.

JRIG
09-25-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Okay, since since some of you are hell-bent on trading Mágglio away, I want to know specifically where you would trade him and for whom. I want names of specific players you want in return for Mágglio.


I don't think anyone on this board is "hell-bent" on trading Mags. If anyone, Konerko would qualify under that description. Speaking for myself, I just think there is a very good chance Magglio will underperform his contract next year. I also think we've seen the best Mags can be. He's a great player. But as someone pointed out, he's no Brian Giles.

mandmandm
09-25-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward


Chan Ho Park: $13,000,000
Raul Mondesi: $13,000,000
Juan Gonzalez: $13,000,000
Albert Belle: $13,000,000
Jeff Bagwell: $13,000,000
Chipper Jones: $13,333,333
Mike Hampton: $13,625,000
Greg Maddux: $14,750,000
Randy Johnson: $15,000,000
Pedro Martinez: $15,500,000
Barry Bonds: $15,500,000
Mike Piazza: $15,571,429
Derek Jeter: $15,600,000
Shawn Green: $15,666,667
Kevin Brown: $15,714,286




Over half of those players will be playing golf with Maggs next week.

maurice
09-25-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I want to know specifically where you would trade him and for whom. I want names of specific players you want in return for Mágglio.

Good idea. It seems to me that any deal would need to include at least one player who would: (1) contribute immediately at the major league level; (2) make significantly less money than Maggs; and (3) come from a team that conceivably would be willing to take on a $14 million salary.

IMHO, any deal would need to feature a good starting pitcher, a good SS or CF, or an exceptional 2B. I saw Odalis Perez kicked around in a different thread. Any other ideas?

voodoochile
09-25-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I don't think anyone on this board is "hell-bent" on trading Mags. If anyone, Konerko would qualify under that description. Speaking for myself, I just think there is a very good chance Magglio will underperform his contract next year. I also think we've seen the best Mags can be. He's a great player. But as someone pointed out, he's no Brian Giles.

Exactly. It isn't a requirement, but a possibility, just as it should be for every player on this team given the right offer.

The more money you make the more likely you are to be tradebait, IMO. Maggs makes the most money...

joecrede
09-25-2003, 03:47 PM
Do you think Ordonez would be valuable enough to the Yankees that they would also take Koch, say in exchange for Nick Johnson?

MarkEdward
09-25-2003, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Actually, it seems as though a lot of players are fantastically overpaid.

From that list, I'd say only Park, Mondesi, Gonzalez, Green (this year at least), and Hampton are overpaid. Bonds is vastly underpaid.

Maybe three of those guys perform consistent with their salary, particularly if you look at their injury history. Meanwhile, they hurt their teams by reducing payroll flexibility.

That wasn't my question. I asked if Mags was at least equally valuable to the people named on the list. I think he is (probably more valuable).

You also listed a lot of old contracts which do not represent the current (lower) market value for comparable FAs. The economics of baseball have changed dramatically in the past two years alone.

I think some are overreacting to the "new economics" of baseball. Were these the same economics that gave Jim Thome a twelve million dollar contract this past off-season? The great players of the baseball will still be given large contracts. It's the Pat Meares' and Derek Bells (that is to say mediocrities) of baseball that will be affected by the "new economics."

SoxxoS
09-25-2003, 07:26 PM
The article Lip was talking about (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x25-lad1.htm)

Good read. Just to toss a name out there... Although it would never happen, I would love to pry Brett Myers away from Phily.

maurice
09-25-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
From that list, I'd say only Park, Mondesi, Gonzalez, Green (this year at least), and Hampton are overpaid.

Well, Belle obviously belongs on the "overpaid" list, along with (IMO) Maddux (4 ERA), Johnson (4+ ERA in only 18 starts), Brown (20 GS in '01 and 17 GS in '02), Jeter (.837 OPS + uninspiring defense), Piazza (66 games), and arguably Martinez (hasn't started >30 games since 1998). Injuries play a large part in this. There are many other overpaid players in the $10-14 million range.

I think some are overreacting to the "new economics" of baseball. Were these the same economics that gave Jim Thome a twelve million dollar contract this past off-season?

At $12 million, Thome is paid less than Mondesi, Gonzalez, Belle, Jeter, Green, and Ordonez, among other less productive position players.

Jjav829
09-25-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I don't think anyone on this board is "hell-bent" on trading Mags. If anyone, Konerko would qualify under that description. Speaking for myself, I just think there is a very good chance Magglio will underperform his contract next year. I also think we've seen the best Mags can be. He's a great player. But as someone pointed out, he's no Brian Giles.

Well, how many people are Brian Giles? Seriously, if that's going to be your base for judging all players, all but a few are going to come up short. The man was 4th in the league in OPS last year. 4th. Maggs was 14th. This year Giles is 18th though he was injured in the beginning of the season. Maggs is 14th once again. Is Maggs overpaid at 14 mil? Easily. But the economy has shifted. When he signed the contract, 14 mil didn't seem as large as it does now. Would I trade Maggs? Sure. I'm of the belief that no player is untouchable given the right deal. However, I wouldn't trade him away for just prospects. I don't believe your going to make it very far in this business by developing your prospects into good/great players and then shipping them off for prospects. It doesn't work. Maggs has had a sub-par year, but hell, hes near having a 30/100 season with a .320+ average and a .940+ OPS. Is it that worth 14 mil? Not bad for a sub-par year. I'd stick with him for another year and see what happens. What Vlad gets this year should go a long way in determining how much it will cost to resign Maggs.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2003, 09:10 PM
I don't anticipate Williams leaving the organization at this time. In fact it might actually be good for the fans that he stays.

He seems to have Uncle Jerry's ear and perhaps the ability to appeal to his pride with his aggressiveness. that might cause the owner to raise payroll to a level where the Sox actually can compete with wiggle room in case of injuries or slumps to a player.

Lip

RichH55
09-25-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I don't anticipate Williams leaving the organization at this time. In fact it might actually be good for the fans that he stays.

He seems to have Uncle Jerry's ear and perhaps the ability to appeal to his pride with his aggressiveness. that might cause the owner to raise payroll to a level where the Sox actually can compete with wiggle room in case of injuries or slumps to a player.

Lip

I'm with you on this Lip....

RichH55
09-25-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Well, how many people are Brian Giles? Seriously, if that's going to be your base for judging all players, all but a few are going to come up short. The man was 4th in the league in OPS last year. 4th. Maggs was 14th. This year Giles is 18th though he was injured in the beginning of the season. Maggs is 14th once again. Is Maggs overpaid at 14 mil? Easily. But the economy has shifted. When he signed the contract, 14 mil didn't seem as large as it does now. Would I trade Maggs? Sure. I'm of the belief that no player is untouchable given the right deal. However, I wouldn't trade him away for just prospects. I don't believe your going to make it very far in this business by developing your prospects into good/great players and then shipping them off for prospects. It doesn't work. Maggs has had a sub-par year, but hell, hes near having a 30/100 season with a .320+ average and a .940+ OPS. Is it that worth 14 mil? Not bad for a sub-par year. I'd stick with him for another year and see what happens. What Vlad gets this year should go a long way in determining how much it will cost to resign Maggs.


That's another thing...Mags is in the last year of his deal.....You need to get him signed long term(at a decent price) or deal him....Playing One Year and departing as a FA is the worst choice by far

Win1ForMe
09-26-2003, 01:53 PM
The ONLY way I would trade Maggs is if the other team gave me a good young starting pitcher, a great 2B/SS prospect, and another pitching prospect. This other team would also have to accept Koch or Konerko's sallary. I can only think of a few teams (Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, Orioles, Angels) that could make that work financially. And I could only see the Dodgers and Angeles having good enough players to offer in return. Oh, and we'd have to sign Vlad in free agency for this to make sense.

This is a crazy debate. We need more .300+ hitters in our lineup. Maggs is the only guy in the line-up hitting above .300. Our team would be all power and no contact without him. Plus, Maggs can hit good pitching. We'd be crazy to get rid of him.

There's no way Frank and Carlos can carry this team offensively...

Randar68
09-26-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
The ONLY way I would trade Maggs is if the other team gave me a good young starting pitcher, a great 2B/SS prospect, and another pitching prospect. This other team would also have to accept Koch or Konerko's sallary. I can only think of a few teams (Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, Orioles, Angels) that could make that work financially. And I could only see the Dodgers and Angeles having good enough players to offer in return. Oh, and we'd have to sign Vlad in free agency for this to make sense.

This is a crazy debate. We need more .300+ hitters in our lineup. Maggs is the only guy in the line-up hitting above .300. Our team would be all power and no contact without him. Plus, Maggs can hit good pitching. We'd be crazy to get rid of him.

There's no way Frank and Carlos can carry this team offensively...


What about the Yankees? They have Claussen, Weaver, Nic Johnson, and many others who they 'might' be willing to trade for the right deal. Why are they not possible and why sign Vlad instead? The point is to ditch the cumbersome salary.

MarkEdward
09-26-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Well, Belle obviously belongs on the "overpaid" list, along with (IMO) Maddux (4 ERA),

Well, that sort of depends. Is he overpaid *now* or was he overpaid when he signed the contract? Maddux signed the deal after the 2002 season, no? During the 2002 season, Maddux was arguably the best pitcher in baseball. From 2000-2002, he was one of the five best starters in baseball (arguably). Sure, he was getting older, but was there any other evidence to show that he would rapidly decline? I don't think so, though I haven't looked at his BB and K numbers.

Also, it's not like Maddux has declined much. He's still one of the best thirty pitchers in baseball. I'm sure he could be an ace on most teams. I think the 14.8 million is justified.

Johnson (4+ ERA in only 18 starts),

Johnson signed the extension after the 2002 season, right? Prior to '03, from 1998-2002, Johnson had averaged about 250 innings a season. His K rate remained high. Aside from the age factor, there was no evidence showing that Randy would succumb to injury. I believe the 15 million is justified.

Brown (20 GS in '01 and 17 GS in '02),

And this year he's been one of the best fifteen starters in baseball.

Jeter (.837 OPS + uninspiring defense),

Jeter does take a lot of crap, but he's consistently one of the three best shortstops in baseball. On his defense: read Mike Emeigh's series on Jeter over at Baseball Primer. He blames Jeter's lack of awesome defensive stats on the Yankees' infield shift. Mike explains it much better than I can, but his point is that we can't fully evaluate Jeter's defense until we have full play-by-play data.

Piazza (66 games),

Prior to this year, however, Piazza was extremely healthy. I think 15.6 million is just around the right price for the greatest hitting catcher ever.

and arguably Martinez (hasn't started >30 games since 1998).

And those 25-30 games started have been extremely valuable.

Injuries play a large part in this. There are many other overpaid players in the $10-14 million range.

I think we may be drifting away from my original argument. Magglio Ordonez will most likely make 14 million dollars next year. Is he as good as Chipper Jones, Jeff Bagwell, and Mike Piazza? I believe he is.

Here's another way to look at it. Most players paid between 10 and 16 million dollars seem to be the best at their position (arguably). Is Magglio Ordonez the best right fielder in baseball? One can be inclined to say yes. I'd lump him in there with Sosa, Guerrero, and Abreu.

At $12 million, Thome is paid less than Mondesi, Gonzalez, Belle, Jeter, Green, and Ordonez, among other less productive position players.

Well, that's somewhat my point. I believe baseball middle class (ie. the Modesi's, the Green's, the Hampton's) will be most affected by the new economics. The top stars will still get their money.

MarkEdward
09-26-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
What about the Yankees? They have Claussen, Weaver, Nic Johnson, and many others who they 'might' be willing to trade for the right deal. Why are they not possible and why sign Vlad instead? The point is to ditch the cumbersome salary.

Brandon Claussen went to the Reds in the Aaron Boone deal, I believe.

I'm not too familiar with the Yanks' farm system (and I left my Sickel's book at home). Do they have any worthwhile prospects aside from Johnson? I think they have a 20 year old catcher hitting will in AA (Navarro?), but I don't think the Yankees are very inclined to trade him.

Win1ForMe
09-26-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
What about the Yankees? They have Claussen, Weaver, Nic Johnson, and many others who they 'might' be willing to trade for the right deal. Why are they not possible and why sign Vlad instead? The point is to ditch the cumbersome salary.

Claussen was already traded to the Reds and I would have to check someone's pulse if they were trying to trade for Weaver. We might as well try to entice the Cardinals to swap Pujols for Koch.

Nick Johnson I like but he's still only one player and not enough value for Ordonez. He wouldn't have a position unless Thomas/Konerko leave the team.

And assuming we free up that $14 mil, where are we going to spend it? That's why to me it only makes sense to go after Vlad. He's the only upgrade over Magglio.

jabrch
09-26-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
I have no idea how much 4 million dollars earns sitting in investments over the course of 2 years, but I'm sure there is some financially savvy person on here that does.

About 400,000 more or less....depending on your rate of return.

jabrch
09-26-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Do you think Ordonez would be valuable enough to the Yankees that they would also take Koch, say in exchange for Nick Johnson?

Mags = 14
Koch = 5

Why not just pay the 20mm to Vlad and keep Nick Johnson?

jabrch
09-26-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
And assuming we free up that $14 mil, where are we going to spend it? That's why to me it only makes sense to go after Vlad. He's the only upgrade over Magglio.

Assuming we free up 14MM, we need to spend some of it to give Frank his raise to 8. (If we lose Mags, we must keep Frank). We can use the rest to get Colon (about 8?) and to get a keep some combo of Robbie/Jose/Carl. We could take some of it and eat Konerko's deal and ship him to Tampa, Pitt or Detroit. We could lock up Loaiza for one or two more. We could sign Buehrle to a longer deal. We could pursue another FA IF like Castillo or Pierre.

There are plenty of things we can do with 14mm.

maurice
09-26-2003, 03:25 PM
Mark,

My point was that the players were overpaid, not that the deals didn't make any sense when they were signed. They were overpaid because their teams did not get back equal value for their money over the length of the contract. We have the benefit of hindsight here. A number of the contracts you listed clearly overcompensated the player and restricted the teams' ability to add other players. That's really the crux of the issue. Is Maggs really worth two $7 million FAs plus whatever younger players you could get in return for him? Maybe he is, but I kinda doubt it. It's certainly worth exploring.

Win1ForMe
09-26-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Assuming we free up 14MM, we need to spend some of it to give Frank his raise to 8. (If we lose Mags, we must keep Frank). We can use the rest to get Colon (about 8?) and to get a keep some combo of Robbie/Jose/Carl. We could take some of it and eat Konerko's deal and ship him to Tampa, Pitt or Detroit. We could lock up Loaiza for one or two more. We could sign Buehrle to a longer deal. We could pursue another FA IF like Castillo or Pierre.

There are plenty of things we can do with 14mm.

So let me get this straight. On a team which wasn't good enough to win the division this year, we're worried about having money to resign Free Agents while getting rid of our BEST player?!?! Good luck trying to catch up that way.

The offense was unbearably inconsistent this year and the answer is to get rid of the most consistent player? Where's the logic in that.

If you want to save money, trade Carlos Lee and see if you can attach all, or at least part of, Konerko's contract. I just don't see a team being able to give us equal value for Magglio.

jabrch
09-26-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
So let me get this straight. On a team which wasn't good enough to win the division this year, we're worried about having money to resign Free Agents while getting rid of our BEST player?!?! Good luck trying to catch up that way.

The offense was unbearably inconsistent this year and the answer is to get rid of the most consistent player? Where's the logic in that.

If you want to save money, trade Carlos Lee and see if you can attach all, or at least part of, Konerko's contract. I just don't see a team being able to give us equal value for Magglio.

You clearly didn't get that straight...I didn't say lets trade our best player. I said many things - but not that.
1) Nobody is untouchable - nobody not our best player (whomever that is) nobody

2) We need to figure out how best to use the limited funds we have. If keeping Mags is the best we can do, great. I love Mags. If we can trade Mags and get a young player like Nick Johnson and attach Konerko's deal...Bye Mags - I'll miss you.

Trade Lee? Why trade our best inexpensive player? Wouldn't we get more in return for Mags and free up more salary?

Look - I want to see what options we have. I say lets look into making a decision on Frank if he doens't take his 6mm option and the Frank-o-philes go nuts. I say we need to consider options with Mags and the Magsaholics call me crazy. I say we need to look at Konerko and the Konerkaholics...well...there really aren't any of those anymore... Konerko would be my first to move. We just need to be real - he aint going anywhere unless we pay his salary or take on other peoples bad deals and that aint gonna happen any time soon.

If you love Frank so much that you wouldn't consider not bringing him back - you need to take off the blinders. We didn't win this year and we have salary issues - and he is considering if 6mm is enough for him to come back for?

If you love Mags so much that you think it is crazy to talk about trading him - you need to take off the blinders. Remember that we had Mags this year and didn't win. Now he gets a 4mm raise.

That goes for everyone on this team. We need to evaluate what we can get for them or what the opportunity cost is of bringing them back.

voodoochile
09-26-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
You clearly didn't get that straight...I didn't say lets trade our best player. I said many things - but not that.
1) Nobody is untouchable - nobody not our best player (whomever that is) nobody

2) We need to figure out how best to use the limited funds we have. If keeping Mags is the best we can do, great. I love Mags. If we can trade Mags and get a young player like Nick Johnson and attach Konerko's deal...Bye Mags - I'll miss you.

Trade Lee? Why trade our best inexpensive player? Wouldn't we get more in return for Mags and free up more salary?

Look - I want to see what options we have. I say lets look into making a decision on Frank if he doens't take his 6mm option and the Frank-o-philes go nuts. I say we need to consider options with Mags and the Magsaholics call me crazy. I say we need to look at Konerko and the Konerkaholics...well...there really aren't any of those anymore... Konerko would be my first to move. We just need to be real - he aint going anywhere unless we pay his salary or take on other peoples bad deals and that aint gonna happen any time soon.

If you love Frank so much that you wouldn't consider not bringing him back - you need to take off the blinders. We didn't win this year and we have salary issues - and he is considering if 6mm is enough for him to come back for?

If you love Mags so much that you think it is crazy to talk about trading him - you need to take off the blinders. Remember that we had Mags this year and didn't win. Now he gets a 4mm raise.

That goes for everyone on this team. We need to evaluate what we can get for them or what the opportunity cost is of bringing them back.

Yes, and I believe that Frank is worth $8M this coming season and the team should take it if they can. I think the $2M buyout only happens if the team takes their option and Frank wants out or if Frank decides before they options are invoked that he wants to go. No way he has to pay them $2M if both sides decline their options. I just can't believe it and would need to see proof of it before I would. Then Frank would need to fire his agent on the spot. So, I think the $10M thing is incorrect and has been blown out of proportion, but I've been wrong before. I also believe that Frank will take his $6M option and make this discussion moot.

My number one priority, like yours is dumping Konerko's salary and trying to get something in return even if it means taking on a risky contract in return. At least there will be a chance to get something good.

Maggs should be retained unless they can get a good offer for him. I agree he takes up too much of the payroll, but JR and KW built these contracts and much the way people wanted Frank to honor his commitment to the DSC I want JR to honor his commitment to the fans to not only keep Maggs but continue to build a winner even if it means upping the payroll. Of course if you can get fair value for Maggs (read major league players, not prospects) and free up some money to sign pitching then that would be okay too.

The main thing I don't want to see is a salary dump for the sake of a salary dump. On that much I think we definitely agree...

jabrch
09-26-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The main thing I don't want to see is a salary dump for the sake of a salary dump. On that much I think we definitely agree...

We DEFINITELY agree on that. I am not proposing a salary dump... I am just saying that if we have a 60mm team salary, we need to find a way to live with it. Assumedly we can't move Koch or PKs salaries without taking on equally ugly ones. So that's a wash. We need to deal with DH, RF, CF, 2B, SS, SP1 (Colon) and SP5 as well as RP 3 (Sullivan)

The two with the biggest impact $ wise are obviously Frank and Maggs. However, if we find a way to keep those guys, we then say bye bye (assumedly) to Everett, Alomar and Valentin as well as to Colon and we do not replace Danny Wright. Next year, we would be starting Carlos, Frank and Mags but have them surrounded with Willie Harris, Aaron Rowand, and a minor league calibre SS off the waiver wire. We'd start Loaiza, Buehrle and Garland with Wright and Adkins/Rauch/X? from our minor league system. We'd probably lose Graffanino also as well as Sullivan. I think this is terrible.

I am preparing for life after one of the two big players. Realistically, I don't see any chance of keeping both Magglio and Frank. (20 - 22MM for a RF and a DH) It is not economically feasible under the current ownerships constraints. I'd love to see those constraints change, but we have never seen any indication to lead any of us to believe that....

Reality guys - it aint pretty - either Mags or Frank will not be back next season.

MarkEdward
09-26-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Mark,

My point was that the players were overpaid, not that the deals didn't make any sense when they were signed.

I see. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

They were overpaid because their teams did not get back equal value for their money over the length of the contract. We have the benefit of hindsight here.

Truth to the hindsight part.

A number of the contracts you listed clearly overcompensated the player and restricted the teams' ability to add other players.

I don't know about that. Is Mike Piazza's 15 million dollar contract the reason the Mets are losing, or is it because of the lack of production from such overpriced "stars" as Roger Cedeno and Mo Vaughn?

That's really the crux of the issue. Is Maggs really worth two $7 million FAs plus whatever younger players you could get in return for him? Maybe he is, but I kinda doubt it. It's certainly worth exploring.

I also doubt it. It's not like I want to sign Ordonez to an eight year deal here. Bring him back at 14 million next year, and if he continues to produce, then we can work out a deal.

Once again, if we can get Mags for Greene, Nady, and Peavy from the Padres, I'd be all over that deal. Nady replaces Mags in right, Greene becomes our SS of the future, and Peavy becomes our number three or four starter. But I don't see the Padres doing that (maybe Nady and Peavy only, but that too is a stretch).

Lip Man 1
09-26-2003, 05:54 PM
Remember what Kenny said in the Sun Times today that the first priority is getting a new manager then he's going to "rebuild" the pitching staff.

If that 's true the hitters are going to have to wait.

Lip

maurice
09-26-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I don't know about that. Is Mike Piazza's 15 million dollar contract the reason the Mets are losing, or is it because of the lack of production from such overpriced "stars" as Roger Cedeno and Mo Vaughn?

That's actually an excellent example. It's the combination of all three contracts that causes the problem, much like the combination of Ordonez, Konerko, and Koch's deals handcuffs the Sox. Maggs is only slightly overpaid. Absent the bad deals given to Konerko and Koch, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

It'll be interesting to see how the payroll issue plays itself out this offseason.

Win1ForMe
09-26-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
You clearly didn't get that straight...I didn't say lets trade our best player. I said many things - but not that.
1) Nobody is untouchable - nobody not our best player (whomever that is) nobody

Oh, I agree. I wouldn't have a problem with trading Magglio just as long there's an upgrade to the team. But I just don't see how any team can give us Magglio's worth.

2) We need to figure out how best to use the limited funds we have. If keeping Mags is the best we can do, great. I love Mags. If we can trade Mags and get a young player like Nick Johnson and attach Konerko's deal...Bye Mags - I'll miss you.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with trading Magglio but if Nick Johnson is all I'm getting for him, then that is crazy. Look, we had a problem scoring runs this year. And you're telling me that we'll score more runs next year with Johnson in the line-up instead of Magglio?

Trade Lee? Why trade our best inexpensive player? Wouldn't we get more in return for Mags and free up more salary?

Yes, trade Lee. He's due a significant raise and isn't worth it in my mind. You can get the same average production from guys like Raul Ibanez or Rondell White for about 6 mil. cheaper. It's hard to match Maggs' production unless they go out and get Vlad. In my mind, Maggs is just about worth the $14 M. He's a great hitter who can hit good pitching and plays a good, if unspectacular, right field. I swear, Carlos is the most overrated hitter I've ever seen in my life. Look at his OPS...even in this, his BEST year, he's not even close to Maggs.

Look - I want to see what options we have. I say lets look into making a decision on Frank if he doens't take his 6mm option and the Frank-o-philes go nuts. I say we need to consider options with Mags and the Magsaholics call me crazy. I say we need to look at Konerko and the Konerkaholics...well...there really aren't any of those anymore... Konerko would be my first to move. We just need to be real - he aint going anywhere unless we pay his salary or take on other peoples bad deals and that aint gonna happen any time soon.

If you love Frank so much that you wouldn't consider not bringing him back - you need to take off the blinders. We didn't win this year and we have salary issues - and he is considering if 6mm is enough for him to come back for?

I don't have a problem with Frank and Konerko leaving.

If you love Mags so much that you think it is crazy to talk about trading him - you need to take off the blinders. Remember that we had Mags this year and didn't win. Now he gets a 4mm raise.


Like I said, I don't have a problem with trading Magglio. But you still haven't told me where this team is being upgraded.

From what I've read, you're proposing trading Maggs to have money to bring back the same team (one that didn't win) only with Nick Johnson instead of Magglio? How is that make us better? Sorry, I'd rather say goodbye to Carlos, Bartolo, Robbie, Carl and Jose (whose pedestrian production I can replace with much cheaper players) rather than lose Maggs.

jabrch
09-26-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Oh, I agree. I wouldn't have a problem with trading Magglio just as long there's an upgrade to the team. But I just don't see how any team can give us Magglio's worth.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with trading Magglio but if Nick Johnson is all I'm getting for him, then that is crazy. Look, we had a problem scoring runs this year. And you're telling me that we'll score more runs next year with Johnson in the line-up instead of Magglio?

Yes, trade Lee. He's due a significant raise and isn't worth it in my mind. You can get the same average production from guys like Raul Ibanez or Rondell White for about 6 mil. cheaper. It's hard to match Maggs' production unless they go out and get Vlad. In my mind, Maggs is just about worth the $14 M. He's a great hitter who can hit good pitching and plays a good, if unspectacular, right field. I swear, Carlos is the most overrated hitter I've ever seen in my life. Look at his OPS...even in this, his BEST year, he's not even close to Maggs.

I don't have a problem with Frank and Konerko leaving.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with trading Magglio. But you still haven't told me where this team is being upgraded.

From what I've read, you're proposing trading Maggs to have money to bring back the same team (one that didn't win) only with Nick Johnson instead of Magglio? How is that make us better? Sorry, I'd rather say goodbye to Carlos, Bartolo, Robbie, Carl and Jose (whose pedestrian production I can replace with much cheaper players) rather than lose Maggs.

You aren't listening to what I am saying...and you are taking stuff way out of context without listening to the entire statement...let me try again...

We have a salary cap....lets say 60mm. In a perfect world, we wouldn't get rid of anyone and we'd add salary. That's not going to happen so we need to make decisions that would hurt the team least - not help it the most. That's sad, but that's the reality.

Magglio is a very good RF. But for 14MM, We can get a "Raul Ibanez or Rondell White" + keep Colon + keep Alomar. Would the team be better off with Mags, Jon Rauch and Willie Harris or with Ibanez, Colon and Robbie Alomar? Then lets say, in addition to that we get a current player and both an IF and a SP prospect from someone for him? I never, BTW, said that all we would get is Nick J. Read the entire thread and listen....Now we have a deal here....If you think that Mags and a bunch of crud in the lineup is better than having a balanced lineup, thats fine....your choice... Tell me you really think a lineup with Reed/Borchard, Rowand, Harris and say Rey Ordonez every day and having both Wright and Rauch pitching every 5th day is going to win anything...

As far as replacng Robbie and Carl with players that cost less, remember we didn't pay their salaries this year. You are not replacing them at their salaries, rather replacing Rowand and Jimenez/Harris salaries. Now find me an improvement at those salary spots?

Lee is due a "significant raise"...yes...he is Arbirtration elig. But he will get about 6-7mm based on comparisons. I don't know how you are getting somone for 6mm cheaper. I don't understand how we can replace Lee's numbers at a 6-7mm cost but we can't replace Mags at 14.

Nobody said to give Maggs away. Nobody is saying to dump salary. But we are talking about getting star value for him. A starter, a SP prospect and a IF prospect.

Here's an offer to you...show me a roster with a 60mm cap that has Maggs at 14mm with the following mythical but realistic constraints....
1) you may not dump salaries of Koch or Konerko - they are stuck contracts
2) Frank declines his 6mm option - so you can pick him up for 8 or let him leave
3) You must have 5 starters - Buehrle, Garland and Loaiza are fixed at 10mm combined. Colon would cost - say 8mm
4) Alomar and Valentin can be had for 3mm each
5) You can not go fishing off of other teams rosters to take players that are under contract. You can only look at other teams FAs. Guys like Ibanez are cheap because they are under first contracts and are not available. KC isn't gonna give him to you, that's for sure.
6) You can not assume any performance from minor leaguers anywhere above the average of players at their positions. (We have not had a rookie as a stud in years - I don't believe we have any coming...)
7) Your Bullpen must cost at least 6mm before Koch (11mm total)

The bottom line...we can build a good team with or without Mags, with or without Frank, and with or without anyone else on this roster. The easiest two to move are Frank and Mags. Frank because (assuming he thinks he is worth more than 6mm, we can decline his option) and Maggs because he is the player we have with the most trade value. I'd love to see options, but with a 60mm cap, we have very few of them. With the deals KW made to get Everett and Alomar and not pay a penny of salary, this was our best chance to win. I don't know how we can add two 5mm type players and not have to pay their salaries again.

Win1ForMe
09-26-2003, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Magglio is a very good RF. But for 14MM, We can get a "Raul Ibanez or Rondell White" + keep Colon + keep Alomar. Would the team be better off with Mags, Jon Rauch and Willie Harris or with Ibanez, Colon and Robbie Alomar?

But you're completely slanting this whole thing again. I'm proposing keeping Maggs but trading Carlos. Instead of spending the $14 M you would save on Maggs, why not spend the $7M you would save with Carlos on a middle of the road starter like Kelvim Escobar (about $5M) and Ibanez ($2M). I'd much rather have say Maggs/Escobar/Ibanez/Harris than Lee/Colon/Ibanez/Alomar. I believe that the duo of Colon/Alomar is better than Escobar/Harris but I believe that Maggs is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Carlos.

Originally posted by jabrch
Then lets say, in addition to that we get a current player and both an IF and a SP prospect from someone for him? I never, BTW, said that all we would get is Nick J.

I agree. If we can get a current player and an IF and SP prospect I would also do the deal. But the problem is (and I've said this in my first post) that there aren't many teams that the Sox can do a deal with and get that kind of value. I don't think the Yankees have the prospects to get it done. And, BTW, here's what you said, "If we can trade Mags and get a young player like Nick Johnson and attach Konerko's deal...Bye Mags - I'll miss you." So it does sound like you're proposing Maggs/Konerko for only Nick Johnson.

RichH55
09-27-2003, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Mags = 14
Koch = 5

Why not just pay the 20mm to Vlad and keep Nick Johnson?


Strong strong sentiment out there that Vlad doesnt want a "big" market....Especially NY

RichH55
09-27-2003, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by maurice
That's actually an excellent example. It's the combination of all three contracts that causes the problem, much like the combination of Ordonez, Konerko, and Koch's deals handcuffs the Sox. Maggs is only slightly overpaid. Absent the bad deals given to Konerko and Koch, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

It'll be interesting to see how the payroll issue plays itself out this offseason.

Agreed totally.......I have never even imagined Koch being jettisoned....but for some reason I have a feeling that Paulie can be moved....I'm not saying we are getting anything good, but does the return really matter(save taking on a huge contract)

RichH55
09-27-2003, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Claussen was already traded to the Reds and I would have to check someone's pulse if they were trying to trade for Weaver. We might as well try to entice the Cardinals to swap Pujols for Koch.

Nick Johnson I like but he's still only one player and not enough value for Ordonez. He wouldn't have a position unless Thomas/Konerko leave the team.

And assuming we free up that $14 mil, where are we going to spend it? That's why to me it only makes sense to go after Vlad. He's the only upgrade over Magglio.


You could trade with a few teams and sure up some holes....and you don't have to spend 14 million all on RF...We arent questioning Mags here, just a cost-benefit anaylsis

RichH55
09-27-2003, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
But you're completely slanting this whole thing again. I'm proposing keeping Maggs but trading Carlos. Instead of spending the $14 M you would save on Maggs, why not spend the $7M you would save with Carlos on a middle of the road starter like Kelvim Escobar (about $5M) and Ibanez ($2M). I'd much rather have say Maggs/Escobar/Ibanez/Harris than Lee/Colon/Ibanez/Alomar. I believe that the duo of Colon/Alomar is better than Escobar/Harris but I believe that Maggs is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Carlos.



I agree. If we can get a current player and an IF and SP prospect I would also do the deal. But the problem is (and I've said this in my first post) that there aren't many teams that the Sox can do a deal with and get that kind of value. I don't think the Yankees have the prospects to get it done. And, BTW, here's what you said, "If we can trade Mags and get a young player like Nick Johnson and attach Konerko's deal...Bye Mags - I'll miss you." So it does sound like you're proposing Maggs/Konerko for only Nick Johnson.


Mags would have to be double the player Carlos is to justify the contracts though....Maybe you would have a point about Carlos's marketablity, but I think Mags is more "overpaid" than Carlos for levels of production....and with replacement value...thats a key concept

jabrch
09-27-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
But you're completely slanting this whole thing again. I'm proposing keeping Maggs but trading Carlos. Instead of spending the $14 M you would save on Maggs, why not spend the $7M you would save with Carlos on a middle of the road starter like Kelvim Escobar (about $5M) and Ibanez ($2M). I'd much rather have say Maggs/Escobar/Ibanez/Harris than Lee/Colon/Ibanez/Alomar. I believe that the duo of Colon/Alomar is better than Escobar/Harris but I believe that Maggs is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Carlos.



I agree. If we can get a current player and an IF and SP prospect I would also do the deal. But the problem is (and I've said this in my first post) that there aren't many teams that the Sox can do a deal with and get that kind of value. I don't think the Yankees have the prospects to get it done. And, BTW, here's what you said, "If we can trade Mags and get a young player like Nick Johnson and attach Konerko's deal...Bye Mags - I'll miss you." So it does sound like you're proposing Maggs/Konerko for only Nick Johnson.

Where are you getting Ibanez? He is not a FA and we don't have an Ibanez in our system. You would have to take a old veteran FA, not a young guy still on his pre-arbitration deal and those guys aren't who we need. The economics of this baseball world are tough on teams like the Sox with selfimposed middle of the pack salary caps. We will have tough decisions.

This will ultimately come down to Frank, Colon or Maggs. I know we can't afford all three. I don't even know if we can afford two or not. I think pitching is very imprtant and I don't want to have Garland, Wright AND Adkins/Rauch in the rotation, so I imagine we will keep Colon and decide between Frank or Mags, depending on what market value is for Mags and on if Frank excercises his 6mm option. If he does, it makes it a lot harder...then I think Carlos comes into the picture.

jabrch
09-27-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
But you're completely slanting this whole thing again. I'm proposing keeping Maggs but trading Carlos. Instead of spending the $14 M you would save on Maggs, why not spend the $7M you would save with Carlos on a middle of the road starter like Kelvim Escobar (about $5M) and Ibanez ($2M). I'd much rather have say Maggs/Escobar/Ibanez/Harris than Lee/Colon/Ibanez/Alomar. I believe that the duo of Colon/Alomar is better than Escobar/Harris but I believe that Maggs is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Carlos.



I agree. If we can get a current player and an IF and SP prospect I would also do the deal. But the problem is (and I've said this in my first post) that there aren't many teams that the Sox can do a deal with and get that kind of value. I don't think the Yankees have the prospects to get it done. And, BTW, here's what you said, "If we can trade Mags and get a young player like Nick Johnson and attach Konerko's deal...Bye Mags - I'll miss you." So it does sound like you're proposing Maggs/Konerko for only Nick Johnson.

I am on my way to Soldier Field so I don't have time to do this, but I would love to see the cost per run generated (Salary/(RBI+R) and the cost per base (salary/total bases) for Mags, Frank and Carlos. That would interest me. My guess is that we would find Frank to be the most valuable, followed by Lee then Mags using this metric. Now I know it is a wholly inaccurate way to judge player value - it doesn't include a lot of things like where they hit in the order, their defense, baserunning, etc...

Given their salaries (6mm, 6-8mm and 14mm) I personally rank them Lee, Frank, Mags. The difference between Lee and Frank to me is that Lee plays the field and is younger and on the upside. If we took salary out of the equation, I'd put Maggs first...but we cant do that. This is all about opportunity cost.

I hope we keep all of them...and Colon...and Robby, Everett and Sullivan. I hope we pay someone to take Konerko and Koch...but this is fantasy. I may as well say lets sign Tejada or Matsui at SS and I-Rod at C....

C - Olivo 500,000
1B/DH Frank/PK 14-16 mm total
2B - Robby 3.5mm or Harris 500,000
SS - Jose 3.5mm or scrub at 1mm
3B - Crede 500,000
LF - Lee 6mm
CF - Everett 5mm or Rowarnd 500,000
RF - Maggs 14mm

= 47mm - 37mm

SP
Buehrle (arbitration 5mm?)
Garland 500,000
Loaiza 3.5mm
Colon (8mm)
Wright 500,000

= 17mm

Bullpen
Koch 5mm
Gordon 2mm
Marte 500,000
Sullivan 3.5mm
Wunsch 500,000
Schoenweiss 2mm

= 13.5

Bench
2Cs 1mm
Graffy - 1.5mm
2 ofs from minors - 1mm
1 mlb veteran IF 2mm

= 5.5


TOTAL = 83mm....Trim from there boys....Kenny is in a tough spot. It isn't black and white. Nobody is untouchable and someone has to go. We can not keep this team together under this salary situtation.

If people would stop saying that we can't move any one guy, and start looking at real options, this could be fun...Frank - expendable. I'd miss him in the middle of the order, but if cutting him means that it brings us down to 73mm and we only have to find a way to trim another 13 mm (not easy) I am open to hearing it. If Mags is traded and we get a young player in RF who is productive and still a few years pre-arbitration we bring ourselves to 69mm and have the same number of starters gone. If you tell me we have to let Colon go, I'll listen to you...it would reduce the salary from 83 to 75. But then we have to have Adkins/Rauch starting unless you have another SP option. (Ponson is out there, but at about 5mm - a savings of only 3 over Colon - not enough in my book...)

I am open to moving anyone on this team. Nobody is untouchable. We weren't that good to have untouchable players. I trust Kenny Williams will do what's right. I hope the Chairman opens the pocketbook and extends the salary to 70mm. That would really help.

Win1ForMe
09-27-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Where are you getting Ibanez? He is not a FA and we don't have an Ibanez in our system. You would have to take a old veteran FA, not a young guy still on his pre-arbitration deal and those guys aren't who we need.

If you want to get picky, just insert Rondell White instead of Ibanez (although I'll doubt we'll see the Royals pay $5M for Ibanez this year in arbitration with Beltran probably making $11-$12 M).

Originally posted by jabrch
I don't even know if we can afford two or not. I think pitching is very imprtant and I don't want to have Garland, Wright AND Adkins/Rauch in the rotation

Again, thanks for completely ignoring my earlier post. I never said I wanted to see Wright/Adkins/Rauch in the rotation next year. I gave a cheaper alternative in the form of Escobar instead of overspending for Colon. So please read more carefully.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-27-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
....I am open to moving anyone on this team. Nobody is untouchable. We weren't that good to have untouchable players. I trust Kenny Williams will do what's right. I hope the Chairman opens the pocketbook and extends the salary to 70mm. That would really help.

I really hate to enter this debate, but it is really pointless to keep suggesting that everything is equal. It's not. The magic number is 14, as in $14 million.

14 is bigger than 8. 14 is bigger than 6. 14 is bigger than 5, 4, or 3.

Yes, we can keep Maggs, but the moment we do we are sacrificing far more options we had that we could otherwise afford if Maggs was traded. That's because $14 million paid to Magglio shuts off far more possibilities than any other action the Sox take.

Adding up these numbers is pointless, because you'll never get around the simple fact that 14 is bigger than any other number. That's the message the rest of us keep trying to deliver in the "Build a winner, trade Magglio" camp. The math adds up easiest this way. The fact you can add it up with $14 million tucked in the sum is hardly relevant. Doing it with Magglio's salary (and without his trade value) is far harder than doing it without his salary (plus his trade value).

I want a winner more than I want Magglio. If we're not serious about winning, he can stay. I'm not the one building the team or the payroll. I'm just offering my opinion.

soxtalker
09-27-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I really hate to enter this debate, but it is really pointless to keep suggesting that everything is equal. It's not. The magic number is 14, as in $14 million.

14 is bigger than 8. 14 is bigger than 6. 14 is bigger than 5, 4, or 3.

Yes, we can keep Maggs, but the moment we do we are sacrificing far more options we had that we could otherwise afford if Maggs was traded. That's because $14 million paid to Magglio shuts off far more possibilities than any other action the Sox take.

Adding up these numbers is pointless, because you'll never get around the simple fact that 14 is bigger than any other number. That's the message the rest of us keep trying to deliver in the "Build a winner, trade Magglio" camp. The math adds up easiest this way. The fact you can add it up with $14 million tucked in the sum is hardly relevant. Doing it with Magglio's salary (and without his trade value) is far harder than doing it without his salary (plus his trade value).

I want a winner more than I want Magglio. If we're not serious about winning, he can stay. I'm not the one building the team or the payroll. I'm just offering my opinion.

I concur entirely.

What I don't know (and I'm not sure if anyone does) is what the market will be like for FA's this off season. Specifically, if Maggs were a FA, what salary could he command? If the FA market is tending toward lower salaries -- and that's my expectation (with little basis) -- we might actually have trouble unloading his salary.

joecrede
09-27-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Mags = 14
Koch = 5

Why not just pay the 20mm to Vlad and keep Nick Johnson?

I'm assuming they sign Guerrero in addition to dealing for Maggs. :smile:

eshunn2001
10-01-2003, 02:06 PM
Maggs is untouchable.. Period.. No matter what. No matter who... Unless it's Pedro and Nomar... He Is among the top hitters in the league and is a very good fielder. This topic is just pure stupidity. I rarely post here, but this is boiling my blood. :angry: Get rid of anyone else. Frank, Paulie, Or Carlos are way more expendable than Maggs. Although I would never want to see Frank in another uniform, I would never want to see Maggs in another either. Maggs is younger and the best all around player on the team.

SoxxoS
10-01-2003, 06:03 PM
The question is not-Do you WANT to trade Maggs...It is CAN you trade Maggs...

eshunn2001
10-01-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
The question is not-Do you WANT to trade Maggs...It is CAN you trade Maggs...

Same answer as before.... NO. Why would you. And who would want to take on 14.0 m. And Seattle would not trade a 6.0 m Ichiro for a 14 m Maggs. And Vlad is a free agent and Would get more from the Yankees anyway.

jabrch
10-01-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by eshunn2001
Maggs is untouchable.. Period.. No matter what. No matter who... Unless it's Pedro and Nomar... He Is among the top hitters in the league and is a very good fielder. This topic is just pure stupidity. I rarely post here, but this is boiling my blood. :angry: Get rid of anyone else. Frank, Paulie, Or Carlos are way more expendable than Maggs. Although I would never want to see Frank in another uniform, I would never want to see Maggs in another either. Maggs is younger and the best all around player on the team.

No he is not untouchable. Nobody is. Look - we have to dump salary to stay at the same point we were at last year (51mm). We have to dump salary even if we get a 20% raise from Mr. Chairman to 60mm. If you don't want to trade Mags, give me a good idea...

The following are not good ideas...
- Unload PK (contract)
- Unload Koch (contract)
- play Aaron Miles and Aaron Rowand both every day

Your choices quickly come down to either getting rid of Frank AND Carlos Lee or getting rid of Mags. Since Mags has market value as trade bait, I think that's the route to go. Get back a young cheap every day player who helps us at either CF, RF, 1B, SS or 2B and a pitching prospect. Try to dump Koch or Konerko into the deal if you can...but if you don't, I think we lose both Frank and Magglio.

eshunn2001
10-01-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
No he is not untouchable. Nobody is. Look - we have to dump salary to stay at the same point we were at last year (51mm). We have to dump salary even if we get a 20% raise from Mr. Chairman to 60mm. If you don't want to trade Mags, give me a good idea...

The following are not good ideas...
- Unload PK (contract)
- Unload Koch (contract)
- play Aaron Miles and Aaron Rowand both every day

Your choices quickly come down to either getting rid of Frank AND Carlos Lee or getting rid of Mags. Since Mags has market value as trade bait, I think that's the route to go. Get back a young cheap every day player who helps us at either CF, RF, 1B, SS or 2B and a pitching prospect. Try to dump Koch or Konerko into the deal if you can...but if you don't, I think we lose both Frank and Magglio.

Your first option was better. Let Lee and Frank go. Along with Jose. Actually keep PK (he will be back next year.... I hope). There is no such thing as 14 MILLION dollar trade bait. 14 million takes the word bait right out of the equation.

Frank and Carlos are Big swing only guys. Carlos has gotten better on the field and Frank is a DH, who hit .267 with 42 hr and 105 rbi. And next year he could hit .220 or .320 matters who shows up. Same With Lee. Maggs is .300 30 100 automatically. Every year.

Whitesox029
10-03-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano

Now Konerko, I would probably take a bucket of new baseballs for him.

Why? Because he had one bad season? Look at the guy's numbers from previous seasons. If you want to trade a guy who had a bad season, trade Koch. At least he was never a fan favorite here. We're all talking about Koch's role on the team next year--what role? I say his role should be batboy at best. Konerko is a class act. We didn't give up on Thomas after his stretch of 4 bad seasons in 5 years, and he had another good one. Why should we give up on Konerko for one bad season?

RichH55
10-04-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
Why? Because he had one bad season? Look at the guy's numbers from previous seasons. If you want to trade a guy who had a bad season, trade Koch. At least he was never a fan favorite here. We're all talking about Koch's role on the team next year--what role? I say his role should be batboy at best. Konerko is a class act. We didn't give up on Thomas after his stretch of 4 bad seasons in 5 years, and he had another good one. Why should we give up on Konerko for one bad season?

Its called a dose of reality....

A) Koch only has one year left on his deal
B) Koch's deal is less than Konerko's
C) Koch has literally less than zero as trade value, where Paul "might" be able to be moved
D) Konerko will never meet his contract with his play, even in a good year
E) Payroll considerations is the main reason to deal Konerko

If we could we would deal both, but I think dealing Paul is at least an option

Whitesox029
10-04-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Its called a dose of reality....

A) Koch only has one year left on his deal
B) Koch's deal is less than Konerko's
C) Koch has literally less than zero as trade value, where Paul "might" be able to be moved
D) Konerko will never meet his contract with his play, even in a good year
E) Payroll considerations is the main reason to deal Konerko

If we could we would deal both, but I think dealing Paul is at least an option

1) Why exactly is Konerko's trade value any more than Koch's--they're both formerly good ballplayers who had one bad year.
2) We should not be looking to deal Koch--we should be looking to release him outright--I don't care if we still have to pay him--we can at least find someone decent to fill his bullpen spot.
3) We're not exactly in the position to be dealing away fan favorites--we never fill the ballpark as it is
4) Paul Konerko is integral to what little chemistry we have--so is Valentin. Without them our team will be completely dead-looking as opposed to mostly dead-looking.
5) Screw the payroll--Reinsdorf should be selling the Bulls so he can concentrate on getting a World Series trophy. Quoth Reinsdorf, "I would trade all my basketball championships for a World Series." Well Jerry you don't even have to trade them---just sell the team.

voodoochile
10-04-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
1) Why exactly is Konerko's trade value any more than Koch's--they're both formerly good ballplayers who had one bad year.
2) We should not be looking to deal Koch--we should be looking to release him outright--I don't care if we still have to pay him--we can at least find someone decent to fill his bullpen spot.
3) We're not exactly in the position to be dealing away fan favorites--we never fill the ballpark as it is
4) Paul Konerko is integral to what little chemistry we have--so is Valentin. Without them our team will be completely dead-looking as opposed to mostly dead-looking.
5) Screw the payroll--Reinsdorf should be selling the Bulls so he can concentrate on getting a World Series trophy. Quoth Reinsdorf, "I would trade all my basketball championships for a World Series." Well Jerry you don't even have to trade them---just sell the team.

Well, purely on a surface level, everyday players are more valuable than relievers.

Beyond that, Koch's loss of velocity makes him a serious question mark, while there is no serious explanation for why Konerko stunk it up so bad this year. Also, Konerko's second half numbers are on par with his career averages, but Koch never did return to form.

You think Konerko is a good part of team chemistry? I think he is a brown nosing loud mouthed punk who gets off on being a media favorite. Okay, that's a bit harsh, but I think his comments to the newspapers have done as much to tear this team apart as they ever did to promote team togetherness...

RichH55
10-04-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
1) Why exactly is Konerko's trade value any more than Koch's--they're both formerly good ballplayers who had one bad year.
2) We should not be looking to deal Koch--we should be looking to release him outright--I don't care if we still have to pay him--we can at least find someone decent to fill his bullpen spot.
3) We're not exactly in the position to be dealing away fan favorites--we never fill the ballpark as it is
4) Paul Konerko is integral to what little chemistry we have--so is Valentin. Without them our team will be completely dead-looking as opposed to mostly dead-looking.
5) Screw the payroll--Reinsdorf should be selling the Bulls so he can concentrate on getting a World Series trophy. Quoth Reinsdorf, "I would trade all my basketball championships for a World Series." Well Jerry you don't even have to trade them---just sell the team.

1) Guardado, Hawkins, Billy Wagner....Loss of 5 mph on his fastball after a history or pitching alot of innings...Not exactly good times if you are looking to acquire him. Konerko rebounded somewhat in the 2nd half, and just overall has better value

2) Outright release is foolish. THere is a chance he can rebound...While that chance isn't worht 6.25 million, its a sunk cost at this point, so you basically have to hope for the best

3) Fan Favorite? Was there a Konerkometer when he wasn't hitting .200? He gives good sound bytes....calm down

4) You are basing this on? I have always heard that Jose is the heart. I don't think Paul won a ton of fans calling out Frank last year

5) Non-Sensical Argument..thanks for playing

jabrch
10-04-2003, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by eshunn2001
Frank and Carlos are Big swing only guys. Carlos has gotten better on the field and Frank is a DH, who hit .267 with 42 hr and 105 rbi. And next year he could hit .220 or .320 matters who shows up. Same With Lee. Maggs is .300 30 100 automatically. Every year.


Well....I think that's a bit inaccurate...Frank has been, all his career, more than just "a big swing guy". Now I don't believe that moving him to 1B makes him a .320 hitter again, but .280 isn't out of the realm of possibility. And his obp is particularly high. Lee is on the upside of his career, probably moreso than the other two...

I'd trade whichever of them gets us 1) the most value and 2) the ability to package PK and/or Koch in the deal. If you aren't willing to take one of those guys, I wouldn't give you Mags/Frank/Carlos.

gosox41
10-05-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
Why? Because he had one bad season? Look at the guy's numbers from previous seasons. If you want to trade a guy who had a bad season, trade Koch. At least he was never a fan favorite here. We're all talking about Koch's role on the team next year--what role? I say his role should be batboy at best. Konerko is a class act. We didn't give up on Thomas after his stretch of 4 bad seasons in 5 years, and he had another good one. Why should we give up on Konerko for one bad season?

Konerko in a good year is still average offensively when comapred to other first basemen.

Hopefully some team will have your thinking and want to trade for him, but I doubt it (unless the Sox take on a similar contract from the team for a bad player.)

Bob

gosox41
10-05-2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
1) Why exactly is Konerko's trade value any more than Koch's--they're both formerly good ballplayers who had one bad year.
2) We should not be looking to deal Koch--we should be looking to release him outright--I don't care if we still have to pay him--we can at least find someone decent to fill his bullpen spot.
3) We're not exactly in the position to be dealing away fan favorites--we never fill the ballpark as it is
4) Paul Konerko is integral to what little chemistry we have--so is Valentin. Without them our team will be completely dead-looking as opposed to mostly dead-looking.
5) Screw the payroll--Reinsdorf should be selling the Bulls so he can concentrate on getting a World Series trophy. Quoth Reinsdorf, "I would trade all my basketball championships for a World Series." Well Jerry you don't even have to trade them---just sell the team.

1. Because everyday player's are worth more then relievers. Also, Koch's notable lost of velocity plus spending time on the DL for elbow problems are flashing red lights. PK is healthy, at least physically.

2. If you think PK and Koch have equal trade valeu, why release Koch outright? Unless of course you think like I do, and realize that they both have zero trade value.

3. PK is no favorite of mine. He lost all my respect when he came out and compalined about Frank last season. Fan favorites don't matter rfor the Sox when drawing crowds. Winning does.

4. A lot of talent plus this so-called chemsitry hasn't lead to much the last 3 seasons. It's time to try something new.

5. Not going to happen, but I'd like it to.

Bob