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Hangar18
09-24-2003, 11:08 AM
My friends, Armegeddon is here. The Last two nites have been Unbearable for me. This might sound like hogwash, but this onslaught is definitely shock/awe status. Took a call from a business contact in florida, who mentioned one of his partners here on biz, and he mentioned this town "going crazy". I mentioned its "mostly" true

Soxboyrob
09-24-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
My friends, Armegeddon is here. The Last two nites have been Unbearable for me. This might sound like hogwash, but this onslaught is definitely shock/awe status.

I'd recommend that you not let the Cubs success or lack thereof dictate how you feel about life. The Cubs are the Cubs. I'm just sick of how the Sox do every year. The Cubs deserve all of the media attention they're getting right now. And if/when the Sox look this good, they'll deserve all of the kudos they'll receive. Let the Cubs have their day. They put a good team together. Their GM made some nice moves to fill holes. I think they're a lock for the postseason and it'll be no skin off of any of our backs unless we let it be.

cheeses_h_rice
09-24-2003, 11:34 AM
I gotta say I'm not feelin' it. Very surprising.

I figured if this ever happened, we'd see Blue Pajama-clad losers clogging up the sidewalks in downtown Chicago, and you couldn't turn without seeing another pud in a "21" jersey.

But nope, I'm not seeing it. It doesn't feel like the Flubs are 5 games away from clinching anything.

Of course, I don't watch the local news, I don't read the sports section of the local papers, and I don't watch Sportscenter and Baseball Tonight, so that helps....

JJAustin69
09-24-2003, 11:37 AM
I think they are in a state of disbelief that they might actually win their division. I know I am.

voodoochile
09-24-2003, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I gotta say I'm not feelin' it. Very surprising.

I figured if this ever happened, we'd see Blue Pajama-clad losers clogging up the sidewalks in downtown Chicago, and you couldn't turn without seeing another pud in a "21" jersey.

But nope, I'm not seeing it. It doesn't feel like the Flubs are 5 games away from clinching anything.

Of course, I don't watch the local news, I don't read the sports section of the local papers, and I don't watch Sportscenter and Baseball Tonight, so that helps....

Some of the belief that the flubbies winning their division is armeggedon for the Sox is fueled by the very posters on this board. When you read that it is a huge issue everyday, you become convinced it is a huge issue. It isn't. The flubbies made the playoffs in 1998 when Sox fans were at the absolute lowest point in the last 79 years. Unless the flubbies make the WS there is no danger of it further effecting the Sox fan base, IMO.

Furthermore, the flubbies deserve the attention they are getting. They were 2 back in the loss column on Friday. Now they are a game in first. Regardless of the schedule discrepency, the fact is, they are earning their praise the hard way, by winning 3 straight while the Astros have fallen on their faces. If the Sox had done the same thing, they too would be getting high praise and Moronotti would be writing another column about the greatness of Manuel instead of jumping on the Fire Jerry bandwagon.

TDog
09-24-2003, 11:57 AM
We could be in store for a watershed year. I am hoping it works out in the favor of the Sox.

In 1983, the Sox were the team headed for the World Series with a serious team that did some serious winning. The next year, the Cubs won the division, and the Sox have been the second team in the second city since.

If in 2003 the Cubs manage to scrape by in the league's weakest division (a feat the Sox couldn't accomplish, despite the opportunity), and fall short in the league playoffs, the Sox would have an opportunity to show them up next year, although they won't have media support to help them capture the imagination of the public.

For this to happen, the Sox would have to play a full season of quality baseball.

chuckn98229
09-24-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by TDog
the Sox would have to play a full season of quality baseball.

What a concept!!

MisterB
09-24-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The flubbies made the playoffs in 1998 when Sox fans were at the absolute lowest point in the last 79 years.

Not to pick on you, Voodoo, but I just need to express a pet peeve here. It really gets me how things get overly dramaticized around here. At several points this season posters have called the most recent Sox failure as 'the lowest point in the history of the Sox' or that the Sox are 'the worst team in baseball' or some other such thing. Yes, it's disappointing but the Sox have been much lower before. To use your 1998 example: Yes, we were only a year removed from the White Flag trade, but the Sox finished a (distant) second and hadn't seen a last place finish for 9 years. They were 2 games under .500 that season, whereas over the previous 79 years they had 3 seasons with 100+ losses. I know we've had big disappointments this year and past years, but can we all try to keep some perspective? Making things out to be worse than they really are smacks of wanting to play the victim, which none of us need or want. Just remember: Yes, it can ALWAYS get worse...

Lip Man 1
09-24-2003, 12:36 PM
John Kass has an emotional, personal column dealing with the White Sox lack of success this season in the Tribune. It's recommended reading.

The Cubs should be in the playoffs, their payroll is approaching 90 million dollars while the White Sox sits at an abysmal 56 million..... less then the Twins right now.

That doesn't make things any easier knowing that if the Cubs do damage in the playoffs, the market share of the Sox is going to shrink even more and this franchise will come closer to oblivion.

Many of you think Peter Gammons is an idiot and that's fine but stop and think for a moment when was the last time you heard anybody, genius or idiot , make a statement like this..." October is a month for power pitchers and right now the Cubs have the three best in the league. It's going to be very hard keeping the Cubs out of the World Series..." (Gammons said that last night on SportsCenter)

Just the fact that statement was made AT ALL should send shivers down the spine of any White Sox fan.

The question now is how do the Sox respond to this...do they continue to say 'we can't compete' with the Cubs (despite drawing almost two million fans) or do they do something about it?

Lip

cheeses_h_rice
09-24-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
John Kass has an emotional, personal column dealing with the White Sox lack of success this season in the Tribune. It's recommended reading.

The Cubs should be in the playoffs, their payroll is approaching 90 million dollars while the White Sox sits at an abysmal 56 million..... less then the Twins right now.

That doesn't make things any easier knowing that if the Cubs do damage in the playoffs, the market share of the Sox is going to shrink even more and this franchise will come closer to oblivion.

Many of you think Peter Gammons is an idiot and that's fine but stop and think for a moment when was the last time you heard anybody, genius or idiot , make a statement like this..." October is a month for power pitchers and right now the Cubs have the three best in the league. It's going to be very hard keeping the Cubs out of the World Series..." (Gammons said that last night on SportsCenter)

Just the fact that statement was made AT ALL should send shivers down the spine of any White Sox fan.

The question now is how do the Sox respond to this...do they continue to say 'we can't compete' with the Cubs (despite drawing almost two million fans) or do they do something about it?

Lip

Lip, do you agree with my assessment that the sole reason the Flubs are any good this year is one player? (Mark Prior.) I liken his impact to that of Loaiza's -- without him on that team, the Flubs are a .500 team.

Wood, Zambrano and Clement have all been amazing at times this year, and especially of late, but they simply don't have the consistency to rely on as a bedrock for your team's success.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2003, 01:15 PM
Prior is the key piece no question but he isn't the only one.

Dusty Baker proves that a good manager can work wonders and the Cubs front office in the last year went out and got nine talented veteran major league players who all contributed (This year's Cub team is a lot like the 1984 club that had wave after wave of solid veterans starting and on the bench...)

I agree the Cubs hitting / bullpen is an issue but consider this...the first round is still a best of five series. Figure Prior down for two wins and you have to love the Cub chances of getting one of the other three.

Now in the second round things change but all the Cubs want to do to help bury the Sox even farther is win the first round series becomming the first Chicago team to win a baseball playoff series since 1917.

Lip

cheeses_h_rice
09-24-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


Now in the second round things change but all the Cubs want to do to help bury the Sox even farther is win the first round series becomming the first Chicago team to win a baseball playoff series since 1917.

Lip

Ugh. Don't remind me.

:chunks

anewman35
09-24-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Now in the second round things change but all the Cubs want to do to help bury the Sox even farther is win the first round series becomming the first Chicago team to win a baseball playoff series since 1917.

Lip

Are you honestly paranoid enough that you think all the Cubs care about is winning the first round so they can "bury the Sox"? I'm no Cubs lover, but there's no way their motivation is to destroy the Sox. They want to win, simple as that. Can you blame them? There doesn't always have to be a secret agenda behind everything...

Dan H
09-24-2003, 01:28 PM
The Cubs have the advantage, as the Sox, of being in the weakest division. But pitching is the real key to any team's success and the Cubs have plenty of it. I agree with Lip. The real key for Sox fans is how the Sox respond to this success. If the team has a lackluster off season where it does nothing dramatic, there will be little interest, and it won't matter what the media does.

Hangar18
09-24-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Are you honestly paranoid enough that you think all the Cubs care about is winning the first round so they can "bury the Sox"? I'm no Cubs lover, but there's no way their motivation is to destroy the Sox. They want to win, simple as that. Can you blame them? There doesn't always have to be a secret agenda behind everything...

Its not that the actual "cub players" want to bury the SOX, but their MANAGEMENT. The Sox blowing it last week, and the cubs Clinching their division has the SOX ORGANIZATIONS BACKS AGAINST THE WALL, AND THEYVE GOT THEIR HANDS ON OUR THROATS. THEY, as a corporation, have a chance now to take so much more "market share", they are going to laugh all the way to the bank. I cannot emphasize how FEARFUL I am that if the cubs even do so much as just win a series, the Media will BURY US FOREVER. Im very sad that not only did us getting swept in Minny hurt us this year, but maybe forever, I feel like Im already losing this team now. It will take years and years and years of Good Baseball by us to Offset the 03 cubs. We are in trouble, as an organization, and I cannot believe of all the good years the SOX have had, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 2000 and 2003, we werent able to "go for the jugular" ourselves, and win something. Sure, some of you might be laughing, some might be scoffing, but the fact that a Good Percentage of the Sox's SURVIVAL rests out of our hands now. THE ONLY THING we can control right now is KENNY WILLIAMS and JR doing the RIGHT THING, AND SIGNING/ADDING AS MANY GOOD PLAYERS AS THEY CAN. You dont want what little fanbase you have to dwindle even further.
The Media right now is our WORST enemy, and all we can do is take care of our own, and hope for the best :(:

Hangar18
09-24-2003, 03:13 PM
Think about this for a moment.........
I just took a call from a guy in Washington state. Gave him some information, and in making small talk asked where I was, told him Chicago, and he immediately said "man, you must be going Crazy, your cubs are going to the Playoffs !! I heard that town is going nuts". Funny how media perception works isnt it?

anewman35
09-24-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Its not that the actual "cub players" want to bury the SOX, but their MANAGEMENT. The Sox blowing it last week, and the cubs Clinching their division has the SOX ORGANIZATIONS BACKS AGAINST THE WALL, AND THEYVE GOT THEIR HANDS ON OUR THROATS. THEY, as a corporation, have a chance now to take so much more "market share", they are going to laugh all the way to the bank. I cannot emphasize how FEARFUL I am that if the cubs even do so much as just win a series, the Media will BURY US FOREVER. Im very sad that not only did us getting swept in Minny hurt us this year, but maybe forever, I feel like Im already losing this team now. It will take years and years and years of Good Baseball by us to Offset the 03 cubs. We are in trouble, as an organization, and I cannot believe of all the good years the SOX have had, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 2000 and 2003, we werent able to "go for the jugular" ourselves, and win something. Sure, some of you might be laughing, some might be scoffing, but the fact that a Good Percentage of the Sox's SURVIVAL rests out of our hands now. THE ONLY THING we can control right now is KENNY WILLIAMS and JR doing the RIGHT THING, AND SIGNING/ADDING AS MANY GOOD PLAYERS AS THEY CAN. You dont want what little fanbase you have to dwindle even further.
The Media right now is our WORST enemy, and all we can do is take care of our own, and hope for the best :(:

Ok, seriously, calm down. The Sox SURVIVAL is in no way threatened right now. These things go in cycles, always have. If the Cubs are getting more media coverage now, fine. If the Cubs win their division this year, but next year the Cubs are horrible and we win the division, do you honestly think the Cubs will get more coverage than us? The media does not have some huge bias about the White Sox, the media just covers what people care about, which at this point, sad to say, is mostly the Cubs. You really think that if we started winning and the Cubs were horrible, that wouldn't change?

We're going to finish with a winning record. Yes, it's horrible the way it ended, and that we didn't make the playoffs. Still, realize the Sox have had much, much worse seasons in the past. They are still here. They aren't going anywhere. Get over it.

Hangar18
09-24-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Ok, seriously, calm down. The Sox SURVIVAL is in no way threatened right now. These things go in cycles, always have. If the Cubs are getting more media coverage now, fine. If the Cubs win their division this year, but next year the Cubs are horrible and we win the division, do you honestly think the Cubs will get more coverage than us? The media does not have some huge bias about the White Sox, the media just covers what people care about, which at this point, sad to say, is mostly the Cubs. You really think that if we started winning and the Cubs were horrible, that wouldn't change?

We're going to finish with a winning record. Yes, it's horrible the way it ended, and that we didn't make the playoffs. Still, realize the Sox have had much, much worse seasons in the past. They are still here. They aren't going anywhere. Get over it.

I hope so man, for all our sakes.................

anewman35
09-24-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I hope so man, for all our sakes.................

We're not in as good a shape as we can be, but I can think it could be a lot worse. We're 20th in the league in attendence, which leaves 10 teams below us, including Minnesota. What's to be worried about?

soxtalker
09-24-2003, 04:16 PM
I do not think that our survival is at stake. I'm also not terribly paranoid about the media; it is in their best interest to cover all teams. (Well, the Tribune may have a different set of incentives.)

I think that a case can be made that this could actually be quite good. Now, I'm not hoping for the Cubs to win the WS, but a division could provide the appropriate motivation for JR, et al. The competition seemed to be there this summer when the two GM's were battling to see who could be the most agressive at trades.

I also think that this will not be like the earlier divisional championships in which the Cubs or Sox were only in it for one year. The Cubs look like they will have a good starting pitching staff for awhile, which could mean good teams for awhile. The Sox will have the pressure on them. That probably means rebuilding on the fly -- being very creative and agressive.

voodoochile
09-24-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Not to pick on you, Voodoo, but I just need to express a pet peeve here. It really gets me how things get overly dramaticized around here. At several points this season posters have called the most recent Sox failure as 'the lowest point in the history of the Sox' or that the Sox are 'the worst team in baseball' or some other such thing. Yes, it's disappointing but the Sox have been much lower before. To use your 1998 example: Yes, we were only a year removed from the White Flag trade, but the Sox finished a (distant) second and hadn't seen a last place finish for 9 years. They were 2 games under .500 that season, whereas over the previous 79 years they had 3 seasons with 100+ losses. I know we've had big disappointments this year and past years, but can we all try to keep some perspective? Making things out to be worse than they really are smacks of wanting to play the victim, which none of us need or want. Just remember: Yes, it can ALWAYS get worse...

I don't toss that phrase around lightly and I haven't been jumping on and off the bandwagon or calling the ending to this season a major problem for years to come. My point was that the WFT was such a disaster and I honestly believe that the effect it had on attendance and the teams media perception were as bad as anything else they had managed since 1919. That is hindsight. At the time, I was blown away, but given time I have come to realize what a major mistake it was. Then the next year, the flubbies made the playoffs, but somehow the team survived. Now people think because the Sox melted down and the flubbie got hot, the team might end up folding. Compared to the aftermath of 1997, this is nothing.

JR not only decimated the fanbase with one final stroke of his ego, but did it in such a way to guarantee that the concept would forever be remembered and linked to the team. Just as 1919 will forever be linked to the team. Just as the airraid sirens will forever be linked to the team. Just as Winning Ugly will forever be linked to the team. 2003 won't be remembered by anyone aside from Sox fans 5 years from now, but the WFT is forever...

Remember this? I sure do...

:reinsy
"Anyone who thinks this team can catch Cleveland is crazy."

anewman35
09-24-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
JR not only decimated the fanbase with one final stroke of his ego, but did it in such a way to guarantee that the concept would forever be remembered and linked to the team. Just as 1919 will forever be linked to the team. Just as the airraid sirens will forever be linked to the team. Just as Winning Ugly will forever be linked to the team. 2003 won't be remembered by anyone aside from Sox fans 5 years from now, but the WFT is forever...


You're making the mistake of thinking that anybody besides Sox fans knows (or cares about) White Sox history. Sure, some non-Sox fans out there know about the WFT, but that number gets less every year that we are removed from it (and it'll never even approach the number who know about 1919). Even in recent times, I'd wager that many more people know about/remember, say, the Marlins post-Series fire sale than those that know of the WFT.

Even amongst Sox fans, I really don't think the WFT is as big a factor today as some people claim. Did the team lose some fans? Probably. But it didn't crush the franchise. We threw a world series and survived that, we weathered a few near-moves, at this point, there's nothing in the forseeable future that'll cause this team to move or disband. Nothing.

Adam

voodoochile
09-24-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
You're making the mistake of thinking that anybody besides Sox fans knows (or cares about) White Sox history. Sure, some non-Sox fans out there know about the WFT, but that number gets less every year that we are removed from it (and it'll never even approach the number who know about 1919). Even in recent times, I'd wager that many more people know about/remember, say, the Marlins post-Series fire sale than those that know of the WFT.

Even amongst Sox fans, I really don't think the WFT is as big a factor today as some people claim. Did the team lose some fans? Probably. But it didn't crush the franchise. We threw a world series and survived that, we weathered a few near-moves, at this point, there's nothing in the forseeable future that'll cause this team to move or disband. Nothing.

Adam

You're nuts and I mean that in the nicest possible way. :D:

White Flag Trade has become part of sports terminology and is used yearly at least. The press still brings it up and it is so much a part of the Sox perception that KW had to call a press conference to say, "I told you we would be buyers this season. Why doesn't anyone believe me?" Um, that would be because JR is a cheap bastard who has done it before, KW.

The Marlins firesale? When was the last time that was mentioned on Sportscenter? A year after it happened?

The WFT will be remembered for a long long time...

anewman35
09-24-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You're nuts and I mean that in the nicest possible way. :D:

White Flag Trade has become part of sports terminology and is used yearly at least. The press still brings it up and it is so much a part of the Sox perception that KW had to call a press conference to say, "I told you we would be buyers this season. Why doesn't anyone believe me?" Um, that would be because JR is a cheap bastard who has done it before, KW.

The Marlins firesale? When was the last time that was mentioned on Sportscenter? A year after it happened?

The WFT will be remembered for a long long time...

Just quizzed two Red Sox fans, they knew about the Marlins thing but had never heard of the WFT, so, I dunno...

Here's my question for you: When you hear the term "White Flag Trade" on SportsCenter, how often do they mention the White Sox? I can't recall ever seeing that mentioned on SportsCenter in the last couple of years, and I know I've seen stories about how Florida's attendence woes stem from their fire sale.

It's like I said, though. The White Sox, sad as it is, have a stigma that no other team in sports has. But it's not the WFT, it's 1919. Unless there's a sequel to "Eight Men Out" called "3 Men Traded To San Francisco" that becomes a huge hit, in a few years (if it hasn't happened already), nobody but baseball historians or obsessive White Sox fans (especially people outside of Chicago)will even remember the WFT.

1951Campbell
09-24-2003, 07:53 PM
The propoganda machine is gearing up for this:

"Imagine a Cubs/Red Sox World Series!" I've heard it about a 1,000 times in the last few days, all over sports radio.

If that actually happens, it'll make the NBA "the Lakers have to be in the finals" conspiracy theories look like nothing. Especially if the Cubs or BoSox get a call that changes a game.

Just something to ponder.

1951Campbell
09-24-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Just quizzed two Red Sox fans, they knew about the Marlins thing but had never heard of the WFT, so, I dunno...

Here's my question for you: When you hear the term "White Flag Trade" on SportsCenter, how often do they mention the White Sox? I can't recall ever seeing that mentioned on SportsCenter in the last couple of years, and I know I've seen stories about how Florida's attendence woes stem from their fire sale.

It's like I said, though. The White Sox, sad as it is, have a stigma that no other team in sports has. But it's not the WFT, it's 1919. Unless there's a sequel to "Eight Men Out" called "3 Men Traded To San Francisco" that becomes a huge hit, in a few years (if it hasn't happened already), nobody but baseball historians or obsessive White Sox fans (especially people outside of Chicago)will even remember the WFT.

I have a friend who is an Indians fan. Believe me, White Flag is remembered outside of Chicago.

Plus, it is not uncommon to refer to dumping folks at the trading deadline as "White Flagging it" if said team has a shot at winning the division.

Daver
09-24-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Just quizzed two Red Sox fans, they knew about the Marlins thing but had never heard of the WFT, so, I dunno...

Here's my question for you: When you hear the term "White Flag Trade" on SportsCenter, how often do they mention the White Sox?

They don't really have to,the perception is there for the simple fact that the term "White Flag Trade' did not exist until Phil Rogers came up with it when the Sox traded a good chunk of their pitching staff while they were still in contention.

That term will be forever linked with the franchise.

Nick@Nite
09-24-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by 1951Campbell
The propoganda machine is gearing up for this:

"Imagine a Cubs/Red Sox World Series!" I've heard it about a 1,000 times in the last few days, all over sports radio.

If that actually happens, it'll make the NBA "the Lakers have to be in the finals" conspiracy theories look like nothing. Especially if the Cubs or BoSox get a call that changes a game.

Just something to ponder.

If the ScRuBs and BoSox play in the World Series... smart money sez it'll end up in a tie.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-24-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by 1951Campbell
I have a friend who is an Indians fan. Believe me, White Flag is remembered outside of Chicago.

Plus, it is not uncommon to refer to dumping folks at the trading deadline as "White Flagging it" if said team has a shot at winning the division.

Yep, it's a noun and a verb. It took the generic term "salary dump" to an entirely new level, now applied to teams giving up even when they still had a chance.

Huizinga did the routine salary dump on the '97 Marlins, something Connie Mack did at least twice with his Philadelphia Athletics back in the 20's and 30's. There is no term "Florida Marlining" the team for precisely this reason.

It's no comparision. The White Flag Trade was a disaster for this franchise (the fans have never come back) and it will haunt this franchise forever in America's sports lexicon.

Great job, Jerry!

:reinsy
"Oh, yeah?! Well, your all still CRAZY for thinking you were RIGHT about how wrong I was!" <sticks out tongue>

anewman35
09-24-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Daver
They don't really have to,the perception is there for the simple fact that the term "White Flag Trade' did not exist until Phil Rogers came up with it when the Sox traded a good chunk of their pitching staff while they were still in contention.

That term will be forever linked with the franchise.

You know that "White Flag Trade" is connected to the White Sox, and I do, too. But does some 12 year old baseball fan in California know that? Unless he's into reading history books (which I was and am, admittedly), no, probably not. Every year that goes by, a higher and higher percentage of baseball fans weren't fans in 97, and they'll consider "White Flag Trade" to be a generic term. I'm blanking on any right now, but plenty of phrases (both in life and I'm sure in baseball) once has a very specific meaning, but now are used much more generally. That's going to happen here.

If the Yankees or Red Sox or Cubs made a White Flag Trade, maybe it would be remembered forever. The whole thing with nobody caring about us goes with good stuff and with bad stuff.

So, yes, it might be forever linked with the franchise by some. But not by most.

voodoochile
09-24-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
You know that "White Flag Trade" is connected to the White Sox, and I do, too. But does some 12 year old baseball fan in California know that? Unless he's into reading history books (which I was and am, admittedly), no, probably not. Every year that goes by, a higher and higher percentage of baseball fans weren't fans in 97, and they'll consider "White Flag Trade" to be a generic term. I'm blanking on any right now, but plenty of phrases (both in life and I'm sure in baseball) once has a very specific meaning, but now are used much more generally. That's going to happen here.

If the Yankees or Red Sox or Cubs made a White Flag Trade, maybe it would be remembered forever. The whole thing with nobody caring about us goes with good stuff and with bad stuff.

So, yes, it might be forever linked with the franchise by some. But not by most.

The ones who count will always remember it... The fans. Look at what that individual act did to the attendance figures. It was the final straw on the camels back. The fans quit JR after he quit on them.

Even if it becomes a generic term in the future whose roots are lost in antiquity, it has to be considered one of the worst moves any professional franchise has ever made from a media and fan relation standpoint. Maybe you can get away with that in Kansas City or in Pittsburgh, but Chicago is a media capital. The cost has been astronomical in terms of lost fans, lost future fans and increased jokes at the franchises expense. Just to be clear, it is never a good thing when they are laughing AT your business and worse when your business has deep emotional roots in the community.

Again, the point was that 2003 isn't close to that level of long term damage, even if the flubbies make the playoffs. They made it in 1998, the year after the Sox surrendered at the deadline and the franchise stayed alive.

I still think it is the worst move made by the team since 1919 and will stand by that statement.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2003, 11:08 PM
This is from Sports Illustrated August 1999:

"If the Reds continue to play with friskiness, Jim Bowden hardly dares commit a Reinsdorf by dumping big ticket salaries..."

A New Man: may I suggest reading the article titled, "There's a hole in the toe of my White Sox' in the WSI archives for a comprehensive look at the White Flag Trade including the ramifications for both the Sox and Giants and the net result of the six players the Sox got.

Lip

anewman35
09-25-2003, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
This is from Sports Illustrated August 1999:

"If the Reds continue to play with friskiness, Jim Bowden hardly dares commit a Reinsdorf by dumping big ticket salaries..."

A New Man: may I suggest reading the article titled, "There's a hole in the toe of my White Sox' in the WSI archives for a comprehensive look at the White Flag Trade including the ramifications for both the Sox and Giants and the net result of the six players the Sox got.

Lip

That SI article is from 4 years ago, which in no way disproves my theory that people are forgetting. Try again.

And I read the article, and it didn't tell me anything I didn't know. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying White Flag was a good thing, I'm just saying it's not quite as big a deal as some think.

ChiSoxBobette
09-25-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
My friends, Armegeddon is here. The Last two nites have been Unbearable for me. This might sound like hogwash, but this onslaught is definitely shock/awe status. Took a call from a business contact in florida, who mentioned one of his partners here on biz, and he mentioned this town "going crazy". I mentioned its "mostly" true

As far as I'm concerned the baseball season ends Sunday Sept. 28th 2003

See Ya Next Year At US Cell.

GO WHITE SOX!

Lip Man 1
09-25-2003, 01:30 PM
Then try this one from this season when Paul Konerko was asked in June what the future might hold and if the Sox would consider breaking the team up he said..."obviously since they've done it before..."

Perhaps the people who REALLY matter the players and player agents aren't forgetting it.

Lip