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NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 08:22 AM
http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sports_story.asp?intid=37887130

Interesting article from the daily herald talking about KW trying to make inroads to have "most" of the team back. I think a change at manager is inevitable, but I would like to see these guys back for an entire year together.

NYSF

GoSox2K3
09-23-2003, 09:10 AM
I'll be glad if the Sox don't slash their payroll.

But, we have to wonder whether the current core players really has what it takes to win. The offense has shown since the 2000 playoffs that they don't come through in the clutch. Getting rid of Manual will be a big improvement, but does that mean our hitters will stop killing rallies with double plays, failing to manufacture runs, performing for only 1/2 a season, or totally shutting down in crucial series? Sorry to be so negative, but this is how the much talked-about Sox lineup has performed for four seasons now and I'm tired of hearing about how great our lineup is "on paper".

As for pitching, I'd be very pleasantly surprised if we can keep Colon. I think the Yankees are going to pay $$$$$ for him. Plus, I am not expecting that we'll get a 2nd career year out of Loaiza.

hold2dibber
09-23-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
I'll be glad if the Sox don't slash their payroll.

But, we have to wonder whether the current core players really has what it takes to win. The offense has shown since the 2000 playoffs that they don't come through in the clutch. Getting rid of Manual will be a big improvement, but does that mean our hitters will stop killing rallies with double plays, failing to manufacture runs, performing for only 1/2 a season, or totally shutting down in crucial series? Sorry to be so negative, but this is how the much talked-about Sox lineup has performed for four seasons now and I'm tired of hearing about how great our lineup is "on paper".

As for pitching, I'd be very pleasantly surprised if we can keep Colon. I think the Yankees are going to pay $$$$$ for him. Plus, I am not expecting that we'll get a 2nd career year out of Loaiza.

All good points. A managerial change is priority #1 by far. But I don't think that alone is enough. I'd love to see the Sox re-sign Colon, and I view that as about a 50/50 possibility. If they can't, they will definitely need to go out and get another solid starter. But with respect to the line-up, I think a shake-up is needed. I would love to deal Konerko for anything they could get for him, find a way to bring in an upgrade at SS (Renteria, Furcal) and find a left handed hitter with some pop at one of the corner outfield positions. The lack of desire and urgency on this team is primarily Manuel's fault, but I think we're deluding ourselves if we think that these players are going to grow stones overnight. There needs to be an alteration in the chemistry of the team, and I'm not talking about the guys on the bench.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
All good points. A managerial change is priority #1 by far. But I don't think that alone is enough. I'd love to see the Sox re-sign Colon, and I view that as about a 50/50 possibility. If they can't, they will definitely need to go out and get another solid starter. But with respect to the line-up, I think a shake-up is needed. I would love to deal Konerko for anything they could get for him, find a way to bring in an upgrade at SS (Renteria, Furcal) and find a left handed hitter with some pop at one of the corner outfield positions. The lack of desire and urgency on this team is primarily Manuel's fault, but I think we're deluding ourselves if we think that these players are going to grow stones overnight. There needs to be an alteration in the chemistry of the team, and I'm not talking about the guys on the bench.

I agree wholeheartedly. JM needs to go just based on GP. But these players need to share some blame. Some of them are just lame, and think that by grimacing on the bench after a bad at bat, or bad pitch selection is showing that they want to win. My problem is how many times do you need to get be on changeups (J Garland, Bartolo), How many times do we have to take bad swings on 3-1 pitches and hit into DP's or Pop-up (PK, Maggs, Frank, etc) Or how about just taking a strike instead of swinging at anything close to the zone(Hello Mr. Everett).

So I agree I like our nucleus, but KW is gonna have to be shrewd to figure out who can change their approach, and guys looking for personal numbers as opposed to guys who think team first. But I think that it all starts with JM. Teams reflect leadership, we have none.

NYSF

Bobby Thigpen
09-23-2003, 09:49 AM
Center field is by far the most glaring weakness on this team right now. I REALLY don't want to see Everett back as the everyday starting center fielder. I wouldn't mind seeing him back somewhere else, but not in center.

What this team needs is a Lance Johnson type in center. Speed, gets on base, defense, hits, etc. Basically everything this team is lacking in the outfield. We have enough sluggers, get someone who can complement them with other skills.

Kilroy
09-23-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
A managerial change is priority #1 by far. But I don't think that alone is enough.

New manager is in no way, shape, or form, the most pressing need for the Sox.

1. Re-sign Colon.
2. Get a fifth starter that's not a guaranteed loss each time out.
3. Get a real center-fielder, or clear the way for Rowand to play. I'd rather he be out there than Everett.
4. Re-sign Alomar.
5. Smack Garland in the head a few times and help him figure out a few things.
6. Fire Jerry.

mandmandm
09-23-2003, 10:19 AM
Could the sox get Nick Johnson, Jeff Weaver and prospects for Maggs? Would you do it? If so you have a lefty bat, a fifth starter, Everett in right. Trade Konerko for prospects. Those moves plus Kilroy's suggestion and we are good to go.

Deadguy
09-23-2003, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Could the sox get Nick Johnson, Jeff Weaver and prospects for Maggs? Would you do it? If so you have a lefty bat, a fifth starter, Everett in right. Trade Konerko for prospects. Those moves plus Kilroy's suggestion and we are good to go.

Why do you want to get rid of Magglio? He's a legitimate franchise player.

Trading Konerko for prospects is a pipe dream. No team will want him or his contract.

idseer
09-23-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
New manager is in no way, shape, or form, the most pressing need for the Sox.

1. Re-sign Colon.
2. Get a fifth starter that's not a guaranteed loss each time out.
3. Get a real center-fielder, or clear the way for Rowand to play. I'd rather he be out there than Everett.
4. Re-sign Alomar.
5. Smack Garland in the head a few times and help him figure out a few things.
6. Fire Jerry.

i don't know how anyone could still feel this way. jm almost singlehandedly destroyed this season. think about it ... if you get your way and get colon resigned but none of the rest, you've done NOTHING to change anything! same witless moves by a manager who will again tinker the team to death!

number 1 priority : FIRE JERRY MANUEL!

mandmandm
09-23-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Why do you want to get rid of Magglio? He's a legitimate franchise player.

Trading Konerko for prospects is a pipe dream. No team will want him or his contract.

I love Maggs but not his salary. Interesting tid bid from last night's game. Maggs home run last night was the first game winning home run of his career. He is a great hitter but not clutch. Average defense. Get as much as we can from him now and use the money to sign other players.

Kilroy
09-23-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i don't know how anyone could still feel this way. jm almost singlehandedly destroyed this season. think about it ... if you get your way and get colon resigned but none of the rest, you've done NOTHING to change anything! same witless moves by a manager who will again tinker the team to death!

number 1 priority : FIRE JERRY MANUEL!

Its simple. Manuel doesn't pitch, hit, or field. Take care of the players in the dugout first, and then, if you think you need another skipper, so be it.

However, there is a reason to make firing Jerry the number 1 priority: It would pretty much eliminate the use of the word TINKER on this board. That alone would make it all worth it.

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Its simple. Manuel doesn't pitch, hit, or field. Take care of the players in the dugout first, and then, if you think you need another skipper, so be it.

However, there is a reason to make firing Jerry the number 1 priority: It would pretty much eliminate the use of the word TINKER on this board. That alone would make it all worth it.

What manager does pitch, hit or field? This is a really lame argument...

Iwritecode
09-23-2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
I love Maggs but not his salary. Interesting tid bid from last night's game. Maggs home run last night was the first game winning home run of his career. He is a great hitter but not clutch. Average defense. Get as much as we can from him now and use the money to sign other players.

I remember reading just a month or so ago that Maggs has never had a walk-off homerun. I'm not sure if that means he's anti-clutch or it's just a byproduct of batting behind Frank. How many walk-offs has Frank had? How many chances has Magglio had?

dickallen15
09-23-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I remember reading just a month or so ago that Maggs has never had a walk-off homerun. I'm not sure if that means he's anti-clutch or it's just a byproduct of batting behind Frank. How many walk-offs has Frank had? How many chances has Magglio had?

There's a big difference between game winning homers, and walk off homers. The fact that this was Magglio's first walk off homer says nothing about his ability to hit in clutch situations. While Maggs has failed several times this year in key situations, he has had many big, clutch hits in a White Sox uniform.

JRIG
09-23-2003, 11:47 AM
Offseason priorities:

1. Fire Jerry Manuel
2A. Find a leadoff hitter to play either CF or 2B.
2B. Unload Konerko's contract for just about anything
3. Re-sign Colon or sign another quality starting pitcher to pitch behind Buehrle and Loaiza

Kilroy
09-23-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What manager does pitch, hit or field? This is a really lame argument...

Lame my ass. Was that Manuel getting his ass kicked by the Royals on Sunday? Or was it Garland? Was that Manuel who had umpteen starts this season and failed to win a single one of them? Or was it Danny Wrong? Was that Manuel who hit .180 before the All Star break? Or was it Konerko? Was it Manuel that gave us Willie Harris and Joe Borchard for CF early this season?

Players play and win or lose the games 8-9 times out of 10. I'll take my chances on what's 80-90% of winning and losing before I focus on what's 10-20% of winning and losing.

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Lame my ass. Was that Manuel getting his ass kicked by the Royals on Sunday? Or was it Garland? Was that Manuel who had umpteen starts this season and failed to win a single one of them? Or was it Danny Wrong? Was that Manuel who hit .180 before the All Star break? Or was it Konerko? Was it Manuel that gave us Willie Harris and Joe Borchard for CF early this season?

Players play and win or lose the games 8-9 times out of 10. I'll take my chances on what's 80-90% of winning and losing before I focus on what's 10-20% of winning and losing.


Was it Manuel who kept running those slugs out there?

harwar
09-23-2003, 11:55 AM
I sure would like to see KW do anything he can to get Carlos Beltran.Hes' a 5 tool player who would make a huge impact.
Also,uncle Lou is getting frustrated down in Tampa and may want to lead a team that isn't going to take 5 years to get to the World Series,if JR gave him what he wanted(big contract with power to pick his own coaching staff) i bet he would come.
Enough dreaming i guess,what we'll get next year is probably more of the same.

JRIG
09-23-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by harwar
I sure would like to see KW do anything he can to get Carlos Beltran.Hes' a 5 tool player who would make a huge impact.
Also,uncle Lou is getting frustrated down in Tampa and may want to lead a team that isn't going to take 5 years to get to the World Series,if JR gave him what he wanted(big contract with power to pick his own coaching staff) i bet he would come.
Enough dreaming i guess,what we'll get next year is probably more of the same.

Any references to Carlos Beltran should be in deep, deep, pink . The guy's a stud and would fit perfectly on this team. But he's represented by Boras and will never ever come here.


Ooooh, an outfield of Reed, Beltran, and Ordonez. Frank at 1B, Lee DH-ing....

Kilroy
09-23-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Was it Manuel who kept running those slugs out there?

Was it Manuel who backed up the slugs with a bench full of other slugs?

And dont get me wrong. All I said was "firing JM is not the #1 off season priority." That is not saying Manuel is blameless.

hold2dibber
09-23-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Could the sox get Nick Johnson, Jeff Weaver and prospects for Maggs? Would you do it? If so you have a lefty bat, a fifth starter, Everett in right. Trade Konerko for prospects. Those moves plus Kilroy's suggestion and we are good to go.

Yes they could - but I wouldn't do it. I like Johnson a lot, but he's another 1B on a team with too many 1Bs already. He also gets hurt all the time. Plus, Weaver makes a TON of money, and I don't think it wise for the Sox to spend a giant chunk of their payroll on a 5th starter who has been absolutely HORRID this year.