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cornball
09-21-2003, 11:05 PM
This is the year management has an out in Frank's contract if I am not mistaken. I have a good idea what the board's feeling is on this based on history on the subject from last year. I think I would let him go if i could improve the team.

I realize what he has done in the past and his place in Sox history, but I believe his attitude is harmful to the team. His attitude to me is as a selfish player....just my preception.

This team needs speed and the ability to keep a quality starting staff (Colon). Does Frank's contract cripple the teams budget in future years?

Daver
09-21-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Does Frank's contract cripple the teams budget in future years?

Who are you going to get that replaces his numbers for less money?

cornball
09-21-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Who are you going to get that replaces his numbers for less money?

We are talking 7MM next year plus additioanl money each of the following 3 years...is that right?

Daver
09-21-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by cornball
We are talking 7MM next year plus additioanl money each of the following 3 years...is that right?

He has a player option for 6 mil,and if the Sox choose,they can excercise a team option for 8 mil,the numbers increase by aproximately a mil a year on both sides of that scale as the contract progresses.

Frank can also opt out of his option and pay a buyout to become a FA after this season.

ChiSox14305635
09-21-2003, 11:42 PM
Outside of CLee, Frank was the only consistent power hitter. Everybody else got their homers in bunches (including Mags). I hope to heck they re-sign him. Maybe he works on his swing with Hriniak again, and he brings the batting average back up, the strikeouts down. He sacrificed that swing to hit the ball out of the park more. It's a shame that most of the other hitters couldn't get on base for him more.

gosox41
09-21-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by cornball
This is the year management has an out in Frank's contract if I am not mistaken. I have a good idea what the board's feeling is on this based on history on the subject from last year. I think I would let him go if i could improve the team.

I realize what he has done in the past and his place in Sox history, but I believe his attitude is harmful to the team. His attitude to me is as a selfish player....just my preception.

This team needs speed and the ability to keep a quality starting staff (Colon). Does Frank's contract cripple the teams budget in future years?

I hope Frank stays, but I have a feeling he is gone first chance he gets. For his productivity, his contract doesn't cripple the Sox at all. As for his attiutude, I don't agree wtih all the negative press about him. He's always picked on. But I can easily blame Magglio and Paulie for a lot of the Sox recent struggles. No one seems to mention their lack of productivity or the fact they make more per year then Frank.

Bob

voodoochile
09-21-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
I hope Frank stays, but I have a feeling he is gone first chance he gets. For his productivity, his contract doesn't cripple the Sox at all. As for his attiutude, I don't agree wtih all the negative press about him. He's always picked on. But I can easily blame Magglio and Paulie for a lot of the Sox recent struggles. No one seems to mention their lack of productivity or the fact they make more per year then Frank.

Bob

I think the Sox have done such a good job of destroying his marketability that it will be hard for him to get a guaranteed contract for more than the $17M he has left on this one if he merely takes his own options.

I may be wrong, but I expect him to finish his career on the southside.

Win1ForMe
09-21-2003, 11:54 PM
This is his contract...

2003: $5.0M
2004: Dual option $6.0M player/$8.0M team
2005: Dual option $8.0M player/$11.0M team
2006: Dual option $10.0M player/$12.0M team or $3.5M buyout

I believe he again has a 30 day window in which he can become a free agent and shop himself to other teams. Under this contract he's guaranteed at least $17.5M over the next two years.

I don't see where he would find someone to match those numbers. Then again, he might go for something like a 3 yr./$21M contract which guarantees him more money but at a smaller annual sallary.

Frank is still a very productive player (his .937 OPS is second on the team only to Magg's .938) so I could see someone possibly giving him that money.

RKMeibalane
09-22-2003, 12:11 AM
I want Frank Thomas to remain a part of the Chicago White Sox organization. Not only is he the greatest player to ever wear the Sox uniform, but he is arguably the best offensive player on the team. This from a man whom many claimed "was done" after last season.

A lot of people have complained about his batting average and strikeouts. If he is back at first base next season, I expect those numbers to improve. It is obvious to me (and several others) that a lot of Frank's problems since 1998 may be due to his being used primarily as a DH. This is yet another reason why I want Jerry Manuel fired.

Leaving those issues out of the equation, consider what Daver said in his post. If Frank leaves, the Sox will not be able to find anyone capable of putting up the kinds of numbers he has at a similar salary. That won't happen, folks. If anyone else puts up 40 HR/100 RBI numbers, they're looking at more money. Jerry Reinsdorf should get down on his knees and thank God every day that Frank decided to stay here during the last off-season. If he leaves, the Sox will have a huge hole in their lineup, one they won't soon be able to fill.

RichH55
09-22-2003, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by cornball
This is the year management has an out in Frank's contract if I am not mistaken. I have a good idea what the board's feeling is on this based on history on the subject from last year. I think I would let him go if i could improve the team.

I realize what he has done in the past and his place in Sox history, but I believe his attitude is harmful to the team. His attitude to me is as a selfish player....just my preception.

This team needs speed and the ability to keep a quality starting staff (Colon). Does Frank's contract cripple the teams budget in future years?

I agree about his attitude. What he should do is work hard over the offseason, maybe get together with a hitting instructor he has had success with in the past. Then he can mention how he would play 1B to help the team, and if the team doesnt play him there not say word one about (even though it seemed to be helping)

Then he could lead the team on his shoulders from stretches of the season. He could put up numbers far in excess of what you would expect from a contract his size. When he's having bad stretches he could work with that hitting coach again to do everything he could to work out of that slump

He could play through injuries. He could put up great numbers. If, I don't know here, a teammate calls him out one year for something and then said teammate puts up one of the worst half seasons in the history of the American League, and draws a larger salary than Frank himself and hamstrings the organization with both his poor play and bad contract...Frank could just let it go and be bigger than the situation


But he has such a bad attitude I just can't seem him doing that

cornball
09-22-2003, 08:18 AM
Just seems to me as long as he is around the focus will be on him...going to Hriniak, changing his stance, going for homers vs. average, first base vs. DH....ect...NOTHING POSITIVE

It seems the focus is always about him, I know it isnt his fault and the media is laying for him, but if he decided to exercise the option (he won't) he would not get the same deal anywhere.

He numbers are good, but does the focus on him take away from the team goal of winning, especially on a budget minded team?

jabrch
09-22-2003, 08:42 AM
we can't get rid of Konerko's deal, keeping Frank means we can not keep Bartolo. Anyone want to see Garland at the #3 and then Wright/Schoenweiss finishing out the rotation?

David Ortiz cost Boston about 1MM. I'd rather have a decent 1$MM DH and Colon then Frank and a $1MM SP.

But that's just me.

If Kenny can find a way to unload Konerko's deal, or if Frank choses on his own to stay, all is fine. If neither of these happen, I don't see being able to afford to stay competitive and I think this team needs a SP to be competitive more than a bat.

idseer
09-22-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
... consider what Daver said in his post. If Frank leaves, the Sox will not be able to find anyone capable of putting up the kinds of numbers he has at a similar salary. That won't happen, folks. If anyone else puts up 40 HR/100 RBI numbers, they're looking at more money.


you know what? that's not the point! the point is if frank exercises his option it's moot. if he doesn't then that's $10 million this coming season that the sox have to spend on perhaps keeping someone like colon. it's not a question of how do you replace franks numbers. frank's numbers mean diddly if we lose colon and and another couple million towards keeping someone else on the team.
imo anything frank could do next season is outweighed by losing an ace pitcher.
like someone else said in some earlier post, you don't have to have a guy with frank's numbers to win! you need things the sox don't have, fielding, smarts on the basepaths, pitching, cohesion, a manager with baseball brains. and yes they need some sock. but they HAVE some sock with magglio, lee, and some others.

cornball
09-22-2003, 08:57 AM
The bottom line is ...Can you win with Frank?

Hangar18
09-22-2003, 09:17 AM
1st off,,,,,,,,we get a REAL MANAGER, that will PLAY FRANK at 1st daily.......Watch how those numbers come up again.

cornball
09-22-2003, 09:26 AM
So Hanger, you believe we can win with Frank? Or do you believe the 8-12MM per year through 2006 could be spent differently in reaching the World Series?

This is what I was taking about the questions, the banter...should be play first or DH...ect .....is this what we need to win in your opinion.

RichH55
09-22-2003, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by cornball
The bottom line is ...Can you win with Frank?


Yes

RichH55
09-22-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
we can't get rid of Konerko's deal, keeping Frank means we can not keep Bartolo. Anyone want to see Garland at the #3 and then Wright/Schoenweiss finishing out the rotation?

David Ortiz cost Boston about 1MM. I'd rather have a decent 1$MM DH and Colon then Frank and a $1MM SP.

But that's just me.

If Kenny can find a way to unload Konerko's deal, or if Frank choses on his own to stay, all is fine. If neither of these happen, I don't see being able to afford to stay competitive and I think this team needs a SP to be competitive more than a bat.

This assumes a ton just to get to one point

A) Assumes Konerko Can't be moved
B) Assumes Colon's price won't be sky high
C) Assumes absolutely NO other pitchers are out there via FA or trade that would be cost effective or quality
D) Assumes there are no other contracts/situations to deal with this season besides Frank
E) Assumes Frank gets the higher pay, when its more than a slight chance he will make the 6 million total, which of course would not be the difference between Colon and no Colon
F) Assumes more production out of the rest of the lineup? There won't be Evereritt, Alomar and Valentin will both be older, Konerko is a ?, so who is to say we won't need a bat? Especially when Frank was our second most productive hitter last year
G) Hey--> Mags will make 14 million next year....Is his production worth almost three times that of Frank(vs. his 5 million salary) and around double his 2004 salary( 6 or 8 million)?

Do we then have to assume you couldn't deal Mags?

When dealing with a budget and limited resources, its generally not the best idea to get rid of something that produces more than it costs, especially when you don't have to


Although making all these fun assumptions at least always you to take some shots at Frank..so good times

RichH55
09-22-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Just seems to me as long as he is around the focus will be on him...going to Hriniak, changing his stance, going for homers vs. average, first base vs. DH....ect...NOTHING POSITIVE

It seems the focus is always about him, I know it isnt his fault and the media is laying for him, but if he decided to exercise the option (he won't) he would not get the same deal anywhere.

He numbers are good, but does the focus on him take away from the team goal of winning, especially on a budget minded team?


NOTHING POSTIVE?

Working Hard to get better? That is not the right attitude? THen what is? THe old Mark Grace school of hitting a hollow .300 with no power since you spent the offseason drinking?


Changing his stance? Its Baseball, thats what you do. Cal Ripken Jr. used to change his stance all the time, did he have the wrong attitude?

And you also mention that he was thinking about himself over the offseason(I contend working harder is a good thing, but I digress on that point for now)......Who the hell are you supposed to think about in the offseason if you are Frank?

Are you supposed to make deals and sign FAs? IS he required to Mags house and make him lift weights? Or is it bad that his focus is on his game?

And you say "focus" --> I pointed out that all of the Frank stories from Training Camp were positive(even though the media is not Frank's biggest ally)...that things he COULD have made issues like 1B vs. DH or Paulie's comments and subsequent terrible 1st half and terrible contract, were never made isseus by Frank...He even took less money to be here(10 million*Deferred vs 5 million now)...How is that stealing focus?

Perhaps you mean the fact that we debate him over a message board? The long threads about 1b vs DH? Thats all I can think of you meaning, and frankly I really really fail to see how that would matter, unless the fans too have to be focused and unitied for us to win, in which case: We aren't winning:)

So were is this bad apple theory again?

RichH55
09-22-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by idseer
you know what? that's not the point! the point is if frank exercises his option it's moot. if he doesn't then that's $10 million this coming season that the sox have to spend on perhaps keeping someone like colon. it's not a question of how do you replace franks numbers. frank's numbers mean diddly if we lose colon and and another couple million towards keeping someone else on the team.
imo anything frank could do next season is outweighed by losing an ace pitcher.
like someone else said in some earlier post, you don't have to have a guy with frank's numbers to win! you need things the sox don't have, fielding, smarts on the basepaths, pitching, cohesion, a manager with baseball brains. and yes they need some sock. but they HAVE some sock with magglio, lee, and some others.

10 million?

A) His deal for last year was 5 million, even throwing in the 2 million buyout by Frank...thats 7 million based on last years budget
B) Sullivan 3.1 million --> There's half the needed money for Frank right there assuming we are playing with the 2004 numbers, not 2003 (Your way of thinking)
C) Well I agree with you on needing Pitching, you always need pitching, but how would losing Frank and keeping Colon add to "Smarts on the Basepaths, Cohesion, Manager with Baseball Brains, or Fielding"? Frank actually adds to smarts on the basepaths(though he's not a burner) and if you are going to try to add more fielding, especially with in a budget, then you need to keep a guy like Big Frank around because those all field types tend not to hit

idseer
09-22-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
This assumes a ton just to get to one point

A) Assumes Konerko Can't be moved
B) Assumes Colon's price won't be sky high
C) Assumes absolutely NO other pitchers are out there via FA or trade that would be cost effective or quality
D) Assumes there are no other contracts/situations to deal with this season besides Frank
E) Assumes Frank gets the higher pay, when its more than a slight chance he will make the 6 million total, which of course would not be the difference between Colon and no Colon
F) Assumes more production out of the rest of the lineup? There won't be Evereritt, Alomar and Valentin will both be older, Konerko is a ?, so who is to say we won't need a bat? Especially when Frank was our second most productive hitter last year
G) Hey--> Mags will make 14 million next year....Is his production worth almost three times that of Frank(vs. his 5 million salary) and around double his 2004 salary( 6 or 8 million)?
...........
Although making all these fun assumptions at least always you to take some shots at Frank..so good times


so what's your point? that we, as fans, can't assume anything? then why are we even having this discussion? you're making assumtions too. you're assuming frank will have a better year next year, or at least as good. what if he stinks the place up? out of his last 5 years how many have been really good? add to that he's going to be another year older.

you keep saying how much more valuable frank is than what he's being paid. then why aren't other teams trying to latch onto this guy? why did he stay here last year. what are the odds someone will give him a better contract this year?

do you really think that questioning your 'precious' frank is nothing but an attempt to "take some shots" at him? that's pretty insulting if you ask me. maybe ... just MAYBE, some of us see frank just not worth as much to this team as you do. you guys that seem more concerned about frank finishing his career in chicago than in what's best for the team make me laugh. just where are your priorities?

i think all ANY of us are saying is, IF it comes down to a choice between keeping frank vs using the money we SAVE on him to strengthen the team, maybe we should choose the latter!

idseer
09-22-2003, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
10 million?

A) His deal for last year was 5 million, even throwing in the 2 million buyout by Frank...thats 7 million based on last years budget
B) Sullivan 3.1 million --> There's half the needed money for Frank right there assuming we are playing with the 2004 numbers, not 2003 (Your way of thinking)
C) Well I agree with you on needing Pitching, you always need pitching, but how would losing Frank and keeping Colon add to "Smarts on the Basepaths, Cohesion, Manager with Baseball Brains, or Fielding"? Frank actually adds to smarts on the basepaths(though he's not a burner) and if you are going to try to add more fielding, especially with in a budget, then you need to keep a guy like Big Frank around because those all field types tend not to hit

i said 10 and i meant 10!

that would be picking up his option for next year IF he doesn't excercise his for 6. that's $8million ... PLUS the 2 million he would not have to pay back for his release.

look at it this way ...

you have 10 million to spend. you pick up his option, you now have 2$ mil left. you DON"T pick up his option, you have your original $10 mil PLUS the $2 mil frank has to pay you leaving you with $12 mil. so you either have frank and $2 million OR no frank and $12 million.

$10 million difference!

voodoochile
09-22-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by cornball
The bottom line is ...Can you win with Frank?

Since 1990 (Frank played in 60 games) the Sox have had 4 losing seasons 1995 (68 wins strike shortened) 1997 (80 wins) 1998 (80 wins) and 1999 (75 wins).

They have never finished lower than 3rd (3 times) - once when they were 10 games over .500 (1992). They have won the division twice and were leading in 1994 when the season ended. They made a playoff run this year again, but will fall short.

I think the bigger question is can the Sox NOT win with Frank and a decent supporting cast. How much better could they have been in 1998 and 1999 if they had had a decent GM who would have made some aggressive trades to try and get the team over the top.

I read statements about players saying "we don't have it" and see them playing out the string and I know where that attitude comes from...

:reinsy
"It's all the fans fault that they don't appreciate that 1997 White Flag Trade and won't spend money on the team..."

RKMeibalane
09-22-2003, 03:18 PM
I'm going to sum up the Chicago White Sox organization in a new short sentences.

This little piggy needs to play first base ----------------> :hurt

This little piggy needs to be fired ------------------------> :jerry

This little piggy needs to sell the team -----------------> :reinsy

cornball
09-22-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
NOTHING POSTIVE?

Working Hard to get better? That is not the right attitude? THen what is? THe old Mark Grace school of hitting a hollow .300 with no power since you spent the offseason drinking?


Changing his stance? Its Baseball, thats what you do. Cal Ripken Jr. used to change his stance all the time, did he have the wrong attitude?

And you also mention that he was thinking about himself over the offseason(I contend working harder is a good thing, but I digress on that point for now)......Who the hell are you supposed to think about in the offseason if you are Frank?

Are you supposed to make deals and sign FAs? IS he required to Mags house and make him lift weights? Or is it bad that his focus is on his game?

And you say "focus" --> I pointed out that all of the Frank stories from Training Camp were positive(even though the media is not Frank's biggest ally)...that things he COULD have made issues like 1B vs. DH or Paulie's comments and subsequent terrible 1st half and terrible contract, were never made isseus by Frank...He even took less money to be here(10 million*Deferred vs 5 million now)...How is that stealing focus?

Perhaps you mean the fact that we debate him over a message board? The long threads about 1b vs DH? Thats all I can think of you meaning, and frankly I really really fail to see how that would matter, unless the fans too have to be focused and unitied for us to win, in which case: We aren't winning:)

So were is this bad apple theory again?

Rich you are missing the point...this team quit....wasn't it Everett that said in Minnesota "this team is not hungry" or something to that effect, with Frank as the leader of the team.

Secondly, wasn't it Frank who said "I was born to hit", whether it is DH or at 1st base it shouldn't matter, and it should happen when the pressure is on.... like September.

Third, he renegociated his contract last years because no other team would have given him the money the Sox gave him.

The fact that I mentioned he changed his stance was to show the media's focus on him and not the team focus. it will always be on him. Cal Jr changed the body lean, but continued to have the same balance....Frank didn't, in an attempt to hit the inside pitch.

I was trying to have an intellegent conversation regarding this but apparently RICH you unable to do so.

RKMeibalane
09-22-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Third, he renegociated his contract last years because no other team would have given him the money the Sox gave him.

Frank had offers from the Braves, Orioles, and Dodgers. Reinsdorf convinced him to stay in Chicago.

cornball
09-22-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Frank had offers from the Braves, Orioles, and Dodgers. Reinsdorf convinced him to stay in Chicago.


I don't believe it. Interest maybe...offers this is the first I have heard.

FarmerAndy
09-22-2003, 05:01 PM
His average has dropped, but he's still a 40 HR / 100 RBI guy.

We just need a manager who has the balls to take him out of the #3 spot in the order. You couldn't ask for a better #5 hitter.

JRIG
09-22-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
His average has dropped, but he's still a 40 HR / 100 RBI guy.

We just need a manager who has the balls to take him out of the #3 spot in the order. You couldn't ask for a better #5 hitter.

I'm not sure why you'd want to move Frank and his .400 OBP out of the #3 spot. Especially with no real leadoff hitter and a #2 guy that doesn't walk in Lee, you need someone to get on base for Mags and whomever hits behind him.

Gumshoe
09-22-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by cornball
The bottom line is ...Can you win with Frank?

Cornball, jump on my bandwagon, but beware:

Your great insights are falling on deaf ears (eyes)

NO, it's been tried. WE CANNOT WIN with him. With him it's not about change.

Guys like Daver are wondering where that production will come from. You don't need that much production to win. You need a TEAM effort. Plus, we have a lot of other guys that I think will step up.

Later,

Gumshoe

ps - don't worry cornball, some of the greatest thoughts are dismissed at times. bye

RichH55
09-22-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich you are missing the point...this team quit....wasn't it Everett that said in Minnesota "this team is not hungry" or something to that effect, with Frank as the leader of the team.

Secondly, wasn't it Frank who said "I was born to hit", whether it is DH or at 1st base it shouldn't matter, and it should happen when the pressure is on.... like September.

Third, he renegociated his contract last years because no other team would have given him the money the Sox gave him.

The fact that I mentioned he changed his stance was to show the media's focus on him and not the team focus. it will always be on him. Cal Jr changed the body lean, but continued to have the same balance....Frank didn't, in an attempt to hit the inside pitch.

I was trying to have an intellegent conversation regarding this but apparently RICH you unable to do so.

Look...you said it was his attitude. I challenged you on that saying he works hard and for the most part has kept his mouth shut.

So you change things up...If he is working hard and trying to get better, then he's being selfish??!?

And since when should the media focus matter? ANd why do you assume Frank to be the leader. Well I think Frank's production is the reason you keep him, why do you point the finger at Frank? Mags is the highest paid player, and supposedly best player, the Alomarsn are the "veterans", Jose the heart, let we put any loses on Frank? Perhaps the pitchers should bear the blame for when they pitched bad?

I'm still trying to see where he has a bad attitude as this thread is supposed to enlighten me on

First, and I'm begging, please tell me how working hard in the offseason, and bringing in Walt at his expense shows Frank to be a detriment? If you mean the "media" focus, well then we are ages away from a coherent argument....the media not liking someone doesn't mean they hurt a ballclub or hurt a lockerroom


Why does him saying "He was born to hit" mean anything to the 1B/DH talk? When Frank slumped(as all hitters do from time to time) he still did his damnest to work through. He let the team know he could still play 1B, and the numbers have always said that he hits better when he plays 1B, yet he didn't say word one about it when Jerry moved him back

And you say nothing about PK? You don't think the reporters were baiting Frank every day about PK's lack of production in the 1st Half after what Paulie said last year? Did he say word one?

He works hard, He puts up good numbers, He has been a good citizen for the club and will make less than countless others...If he gets the 6 million figure next year, he will make less than C. Lee, a ton less than Mags, less than Carl Everett did last year, twice what Scott Sullivan's option calls for....and you think that is all he could get?

RichH55
09-22-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I don't believe it. Interest maybe...offers this is the first I have heard.

How about the fact he didn't have to take a new deal at all? He was going to get 10 million, albeit deferred, a year

MarkEdward
09-22-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
You don't need that much production to win.

Yup, that's why teams like the Devil Rays and Brewers are always fighting for a divisional crown...

You need a TEAM effort.

So now Thomas isn't a team player? Before, you said Thomas didn't put up good enough numbers. Now he's a clubhouse cancer?

That kind of sounds like Barry Bonds around 2001. The Giants kept him, and he hasn't really hurt their team...

Plus, we have a lot of other guys that I think will step up.

Um, which player (aside from Mags) in our organization will put up a .390 OBP and .550 slugging percentage in the near future?

RichH55
09-22-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by idseer
so what's your point? that we, as fans, can't assume anything? then why are we even having this discussion? you're making assumtions too. you're assuming frank will have a better year next year, or at least as good. what if he stinks the place up? out of his last 5 years how many have been really good? add to that he's going to be another year older.

you keep saying how much more valuable frank is than what he's being paid. then why aren't other teams trying to latch onto this guy? why did he stay here last year. what are the odds someone will give him a better contract this year?

do you really think that questioning your 'precious' frank is nothing but an attempt to "take some shots" at him? that's pretty insulting if you ask me. maybe ... just MAYBE, some of us see frank just not worth as much to this team as you do. you guys that seem more concerned about frank finishing his career in chicago than in what's best for the team make me laugh. just where are your priorities?

i think all ANY of us are saying is, IF it comes down to a choice between keeping frank vs using the money we SAVE on him to strengthen the team, maybe we should choose the latter!

Sure you can assume things, but when you have to assume 10+ things and ignore other things it starts to look like more than just "assuming" things

Ever heard of Occam's(sic) Razor: The simplest solution tends to be correct?

And the last 5 years....great in 2000, great this last year, injured for a whole year, and took alot of last year getting around that. So not injured he has been playing up a storm....Not to mention this current effort has been great, so its not like I'm using the distant past to justify the point.

And saying things like someone questioning my "precious" Frank does really sound like someone with an ax to grind. I mainly talk about dealing Paulie, and I like Paulie...just trying to be objective. I never said I cared about Frank ending his career here, and I would love for you to find it in one of my posts....A simple cost-benefit analysis of what he currently makes, what he currently provides, and the Sox current level leads me to believe he is good to have here, and that he helps us win .

And what hitters can you get to put up Frank's numbers for 6 million per year...hell for 8 million per year?


Oh and on the strengthing of the team with supposed "Frank-dollars"....didn't I point out that Sullivan will make almost half of Frank's contract...Sullivan and Schoneweiss that is 4.5-5.0 million right there on this supposed payroll, so I was pointing out that Frank's contract doesnt exist in a vacuum and that there were other options out there then getting rid of one of our most productive ballplayers

RichH55
09-22-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by RichH55

B) Sullivan 3.1 million --> There's half the needed money for Frank right there assuming we are playing with the 2004 numbers, not 2003 (Your way of thinking)
C) Well I agree with you on needing Pitching, you always need pitching, but how would losing Frank and keeping Colon add to "Smarts on the Basepaths, Cohesion, Manager with Baseball Brains, or Fielding"? Frank actually adds to smarts on the basepaths(though he's not a burner) and if you are going to try to add more fielding, especially with in a budget, then you need to keep a guy like Big Frank around because those all field types tend not to hit

IDseer....please answer B and C

LauraJ14
09-22-2003, 06:37 PM
In the 13 years Frank has been with the Sox, we have been to the playoffs TWICE. I think Frank is more concerned with his numbers and if his money or Konerko's money or Valentin's or Koch's money can be freed up to keep Colon or get another quality starting pitcher than I say go for it.
We don't need 7 guys with 20 homers or more, how about 7 guys with 80 RBI's each?

RichH55
09-22-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
In the 13 years Frank has been with the Sox, we have been to the playoffs TWICE. I think Frank is more concerned with his numbers and if his money or Konerko's money or Valentin's or Koch's money can be freed up to keep Colon or get another quality starting pitcher than I say go for it.
We don't need 7 guys with 20 homers or more, how about 7 guys with 80 RBI's each?


7 guys with 80 RBIS each would mean lots of getting on base.......HR is at least a stat to the guy who hits it.....RBIs is mainly a team stat....though not to say I'd be anti- 7 guys with 80 RBIs....just dont know how you would get us to that point this offseason

NewyorkSoxFan
09-22-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I think the Sox have done such a good job of destroying his marketability that it will be hard for him to get a guaranteed contract for more than the $17M he has left on this one if he merely takes his own options.

I may be wrong, but I expect him to finish his career on the southside.


uhh... I think Frank has done a pretty good job of shooting himself in the foot a few times as well. Stop blaming the management for some of his own stupidity.

NYSF

NewyorkSoxFan
09-22-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Cornball, jump on my bandwagon, but beware:

Your great insights are falling on deaf ears (eyes)

NO, it's been tried. WE CANNOT WIN with him. With him it's not about change.

Guys like Daver are wondering where that production will come from. You don't need that much production to win. You need a TEAM effort. Plus, we have a lot of other guys that I think will step up.

Later,

Gumshoe

ps - don't worry cornball, some of the greatest thoughts are dismissed at times. bye


I agree everybody keeps talking about replacing his production, but all I know is that the production-less Twins will be playing in the playoffs while we sit home with all our production. This is what I mean by a change in philosophy. We have had marginal success with Frank, but he certainly hasn't carried us anywhere. So although you hate to lose 40 hrs and 100rbi, I will take 2 guys who hit 280 and have 15 to 20 hrs a piece and are good defenders.

I love Frank and would miss seeing him, but MJ he is not. He is has been a very good maybe even great player, but the White Sox will survive without Frank Thomas.

NYSF

Deadguy
09-22-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by LauraJ14
In the 13 years Frank has been with the Sox, we have been to the playoffs TWICE.

Um, yeah, so? In the previous 70 years we made the postseason exactly TWICE.

Do you honestly think the Sox inability to make the playoffs in any particular season is attributed to the actions or selfishness of any given player?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-22-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I agree everybody keeps talking about replacing his production, but all I know is that the production-less Twins will be playing in the playoffs while we sit home with all our production. This is what I mean by a change in philosophy. We have had marginal success with Frank, but he certainly hasn't carried us anywhere. So although you hate to lose 40 hrs and 100rbi, I will take 2 guys who hit 280 and have 15 to 20 hrs a piece and are good defenders.

I love Frank and would miss seeing him, but MJ he is not. He is has been a very good maybe even great player, but the White Sox will survive without Frank Thomas.

NYSF

1993. Frank puts up MVP numbers, the Sox win the AL West.
1994. Frank puts up MVP numbers, the Sox win the AL Central.
2000. Frank puts up MVP numbers (short by the length of Jason Giambi's firstbasemen's glove), the Sox win the AL Central.

Yeah, I see your point. Who needs MVP numbers from Frank Thomas to win anything!

:maggs :walnuts
"Don't look at us. We just get paid more."

JRIG
09-22-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Um, yeah, so? In the previous 70 years we made the postseason exactly TWICE.

Do you honestly think the Sox inability to make the playoffs in any particular season is attributed to the actions or selfishness of any given player?

Yes. Obviously Frank's .330/.440/.650 seasons were only bringing the team down. Damn him for being so productive and putting up HOF stats!

Deadguy
09-22-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan

I love Frank and would miss seeing him, but MJ he is not. He is has been a very good maybe even great player, but the White Sox will survive without Frank Thomas.

NYSF

So what if Thomas isn't an MVP candidate anymore. The assertion here is that since he has declined, he can't help the team.

voodoochile
09-22-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
uhh... I think Frank has done a pretty good job of shooting himself in the foot a few times as well. Stop blaming the management for some of his own stupidity.

NYSF

I have no problem with admitting that Frank has been his own worst enemy at times, but can you name another player with Frank's tenure and stats who gets treated as poorly by the team he has spent his entire career playing for and has actively stated he wants to finish his career with?

voodoochile
09-22-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I agree everybody keeps talking about replacing his production, but all I know is that the production-less Twins will be playing in the playoffs while we sit home with all our production. This is what I mean by a change in philosophy. We have had marginal success with Frank, but he certainly hasn't carried us anywhere. So although you hate to lose 40 hrs and 100rbi, I will take 2 guys who hit 280 and have 15 to 20 hrs a piece and are good defenders.

I love Frank and would miss seeing him, but MJ he is not. He is has been a very good maybe even great player, but the White Sox will survive without Frank Thomas.

NYSF

You want a guy with good defense who hits .280 and 20 HR as the DH or 1B? Why?

JRIG
09-22-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
1993. Frank puts up MVP numbers, the Sox win the AL West.
1994. Frank puts up MVP numbers, the Sox win the AL Central.
2000. Frank puts up MVP numbers (short by the length of Jason Giambi's firstbasemen's glove), the Sox win the AL Central.

Yeah, I see your point. Who needs MVP numbers from Frank Thomas to win anything!

:maggs :walnuts
"Don't look at us. We just get paid more."


:bkoch:
"What? You say even I'll be paid more than Frank next year if he exercises his option? Sweet!"

NewyorkSoxFan
09-22-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
1993. Frank puts up MVP numbers, the Sox win the AL West.
1994. Frank puts up MVP numbers, the Sox win the AL Central.
2000. Frank puts up MVP numbers (short by the length of Jason Giambi's firstbasemen's glove), the Sox win the AL Central.

Yeah, I see your point. Who needs MVP numbers from Frank Thomas to win anything!

:maggs :walnuts
"Don't look at us. We just get paid more."

Not to take away what Frank has done but 1994 was incomplete, and it was a race. But lets say for the sake of the discussion it was 3 complete seasons. In two of those years 93, 94, he had a very talented team around him. And he also was in the prime of his career. In '00 he had young guys have career years around him to solidify his numbers.

My point is that Frank at this stage will NOT ever be able to carry the Sox for an entire season again. This is hard for many sox fans to come to grips with b/c he is our guy, and he was so good for so long. But Frank of '04 is a role player, DH type. He has glimpses of glory but I really think what we saw this year is what we will get with Frank. I could be wrong, I hope I am, but I don't see it.


NYSF

voodoochile
09-22-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Not to take away what Frank has done but 1994 was incomplete, and it was a race. But lets say for the sake of the discussion it was 3 complete seasons. In two of those years 93, 94, he had a very talented team around him. And he also was in the prime of his career. In '00 he had young guys have career years around him to solidify his numbers.

My point is that Frank at this stage will NOT ever be able to carry the Sox for an entire season again. This is hard for many sox fans to come to grips with b/c he is our guy, and he was so good for so long. But Frank of '04 is a role player, DH type. He has glimpses of glory but I really think what we saw this year is what we will get with Frank. I could be wrong, I hope I am, but I don't see it.


NYSF

How many guys CAN carry their team for an entire season? 1? 2?

Now how many of them will be paid $6-8M this coming season?

maurice
09-22-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
the production-less Twins will be playing in the playoffs while we sit home with all our production.

Minnesota: 773 Runs (10th in MLB) / .342 Team OBP (9th)
White Sox: 738 Runs (15th) / .330 Team OBP (19th)

Explain again how we pass the Twinks by dumping one of our top run producers and on-base guys.

Deadguy
09-22-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Minnesota: 773 Runs (10th in MLB) / .342 Team OBP (9th)
White Sox: 738 Runs (15th) / .330 Team OBP (19th)

Explain again how we pass the Twinks by dumping one of our top run producers and on-base guys.

Good point.

Baseball is half runs scored and half runs allowed. Dumping our co-best hitter will inevitably make us worse offensively, thus hurting our runs scored total, and invariably, our win-loss total.

We're a borderline playoff team as it is. We really don't need to dump one of our top run producers at this point.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-22-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Minnesota: 773 Runs (10th in MLB) / .342 Team OBP (9th)
White Sox: 738 Runs (15th) / .330 Team OBP (19th)

Explain again how we pass the Twinks by dumping one of our top run producers and on-base guys.

Prayer?

:smile:

voodoochile
09-22-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Prayer?

:smile:

:jerry
"No, I tried that last June when I returned Paulie to 1B and put Frank back at DH. I was praying every day that Paulie would start to outhit the big man there and lead us to the playoffs. I can't understand it. Konerko has a much better glove at 1B, he should be able to outhit Frank too. It's perplexing and no amount of tinkering could fix the problem."

RKMeibalane
09-22-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I don't believe it. Interest maybe...offers this is the first I have heard.

The information I have came straight from Daver. Nothing gets past that man.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-22-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Minnesota: 773 Runs (10th in MLB) / .342 Team OBP (9th)
White Sox: 738 Runs (15th) / .330 Team OBP (19th)

Explain again how we pass the Twinks by dumping one of our top run producers and on-base guys.

Don't miscontrue hr's with production. We didn't score runs b/c Frank as well as Maggs, CLee at times and PK were all or nothing hitters. It was Hr or bust many times with them. We rarely strung an inning together with 7 or 8 hits in an inning. So Just b/c we lose our 40 hr guy doesn't automatically mean we become worst. It depends on who you put in his place. I also don't think this has be one guy. Everybody wants to replace him with one guy making 6 or 8 million dollars. It could be more than one.

NYSF

RKMeibalane
09-22-2003, 07:59 PM
Frank has had a "good" season in 2003. Notice that I didn't say he had a "great" season. Yet he has still posted forty home runs and one hundred runs batted in. For most of the players currently in Major League Baseball, a good year doesn't even come close to those numbers.

I'm sure someone will come back and say that his average sucks.

Well, yes it does. However, I remain convinced that moving him back to first base will solve that problem. We have compiled six years of evidence to support this claim.

Once Jerry Manuel is out of here, things will look a lot better as far as Frank Thomas is concerned.

Deadguy
09-22-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Prayer?

:smile:

Is that one of those intangibles that those anti-stat fiends are always talking about?

God must be a Yankee fan. :angry:

JRIG
09-22-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Frank has had a "good" season in 2003. Notice that I didn't say he had a "great" season. Yet he has still posted forty home runs and one hundred runs batted in. For most of the players currently in Major League Baseball, a good year doesn't even come close to those numbers.

I'm sure someone will come back and say that his average sucks.

Well, yes it does. However, I remain convinced that moving him back to first base will solve that problem. We have compiled six years of evidence to support this claim.

Once Jerry Manuel is out of here, things will look a lot better as far as Frank Thomas is concerned.

Not to mention the fact that he has an OK chance to walk more than 100 times again.

Daver
09-22-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The information I have came straight from Daver. Nothing gets past that man.

I know nothing about baseball.

MetalliSox
09-22-2003, 08:29 PM
Keep him and bat him 5th.

JRIG
09-22-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
Keep him and bat him 5th.

As I said earlier, I'm not sure why you'd want to move Frank and his .400 OBP out of the #3 spot. Especially with no real leadoff hitter and a #2 guy that doesn't walk in Lee, you need someone to get on base for Mags and whomever hits behind him.

Can anyone explain the logic?

MetalliSox
09-22-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
As I said earlier, I'm not sure why you'd want to move Frank and his .400 OBP out of the #3 spot. Especially with no real leadoff hitter and a #2 guy that doesn't walk in Lee, you need someone to get on base for Mags and whomever hits behind him.

Can anyone explain the logic?

OBP is a good stat, but more important for a lead off man I would think. 3rd hitter has to hit for average which Frank is not doing. He'd get a lot of RBI opportunities while continuing to get on base for guys behind him. Only would work is Konerko and Crede are hitting the ball I guess.

Maybe Frank should lead off?

JRIG
09-22-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
OBP is a good stat, but more important for a lead off man I would think. 3rd hitter has to hit for average which Frank is not doing. He'd get a lot of RBI opportunities while continuing to get on base for guys behind him. Only would work is Konerko and Crede are hitting the ball I guess.

Maybe Frank should lead off?

I would rather see Frank on base for Mags and Everett/Lee than counting on guys like Crede and Konerko to drive him in. Frank has the highest OBP on the team. I want our best chance to drive him in as often as possible.

idseer
09-22-2003, 08:49 PM
IDseer....please answer B and C

Originally posted by RichH55
B) Sullivan 3.1 million --> There's half the needed money for Frank right there assuming we are playing with the 2004 numbers, not 2003 (Your way of thinking)
C) Well I agree with you on needing Pitching, you always need pitching, but how would losing Frank and keeping Colon add to "Smarts on the Basepaths, Cohesion, Manager with Baseball Brains, or Fielding"? Frank actually adds to smarts on the basepaths(though he's not a burner) and if you are going to try to add more fielding, especially with in a budget, then you need to keep a guy like Big Frank around because those all field types tend not to hit

B. i'm not sure but are you suggesting we dump sullivan to partly pay for frank? sullivan is a 32 year old veteran who has put up good numbers his whole career. he didn't shine for the sox but then again he's only pitched 11 innings. 3.18 era, 1.06 whip. he's lifetime 3.90 and 1.26. you think we should chop back pitching to help pay for frank? i disagree.

C. the question is kinda bogus here. losing frank wouldn't do all of those things. but it COULD do at least one of those things ... retain an ace pitcher! if colon wouldn't stay anyway then the $'s COULD be put to use taking care of 2 or more of those other items tho.

frank has had a good year. not as good as i'd hoped, but good. frank and colon both disappointed me. i thought with both of them facing free agency they'd really put some numbers together and incidently pull the sox along with them but it didn't happen.
letting frank go now is a gamble, sure ... but it's a small one. he won't be getting better he'll either remain about the same or more likely go further downhill. he's a big guy and big guys don't age as gracefully as trimmer guys do. i just don't see him as being worth the money, tho if he simply remains for $6 million i can't find a problem with that (i've been discussing this based on him not taking his option which makes the price essentially $4 million higher).
if the sox in fact don't keep the team somewhat together then frank will do the sox no good next year and i'd rather see the money invested in potential.

Deadguy
09-22-2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
OBP is a good stat, but more important for a lead off man I would think. 3rd hitter has to hit for average which Frank is not doing. He'd get a lot of RBI opportunities while continuing to get on base for guys behind him. Only would work is Konerko and Crede are hitting the ball I guess.

Maybe Frank should lead off?

Perhaps he should be moved to the clean-up spot then. That way, if there is a 1-2-3 1st, he can lead off the second inning.

A walk to lead off an inning is much more likely to score, than a walk with two outs and nobody on base.

MarkEdward
09-22-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
As I said earlier, I'm not sure why you'd want to move Frank and his .400 OBP out of the #3 spot. Especially with no real leadoff hitter and a #2 guy that doesn't walk in Lee, you need someone to get on base for Mags and whomever hits behind him.

Can anyone explain the logic?

Dude, don't you understand? He's only hitting .250! That's awful!

We should totally go after Doug Glanville. The guy once hit .300! Plus, he's got speed, defense, and has a veteran presence.

JRIG
09-22-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Dude, don't you understand? He's only hitting .250! That's awful!

We should totally go after Doug Glanville. The guy once hit .300! Plus, he's got speed, defense, and has a veteran presence.

Well, either him or Tom Goodwin.

RichH55
09-22-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Dude, don't you understand? He's only hitting .250! That's awful!

We should totally go after Doug Glanville. The guy once hit .300! Plus, he's got speed, defense, and has a veteran presence.


Total Overall

C-
1B - Mark Grace
2B -Luis Castillo
SS- Mike Caruso
3B- Rey Sanchez
OF- Doug Glanville
OF- Chris Singleton
OF-
DH-

Only three holes to fill and everyone of those guys can hit .300! Frank's heathen 40+ HR and 100 Walks can be gone forever and we can finally win

JRIG
09-22-2003, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Total Overall

C-
1B - Mark Grace
2B -Luis Castillo
SS- Mike Caruso
3B- Rey Sanchez
OF- Doug Glanville
OF- Chris Singleton
OF-
DH-

Only three holes to fill and everyone of those guys can hit .300! Frank's heathen 40+ HR and 100 Walks can be gone forever and we can finally win

I'd like to suggest Brent Mayne to catch. And even though he's never hit .300, he's come darn close and is a perfect fit for this lineup -- Neifi Perez at DH.

gosox41
09-22-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Perhaps he should be moved to the clean-up spot then. That way, if there is a 1-2-3 1st, he can lead off the second inning.

A walk to lead off an inning is much more likely to score, than a walk with two outs and nobody on base.

Frank is the most productive hitter on the team and needs to get as many AB's as possible. He's too slow to bad lead off, plus with his power you'd like to see people on base when he hits. Batting lead off means he's going to have a ton of solo HR's because the 8 and 9 hitters don't get on base as much as Alomar and Lee/Graffanino.

Bob

jabrch
09-23-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
So what if Thomas isn't an MVP candidate anymore. The assertion here is that since he has declined, he can't help the team.

Actually Deadguy, I think the assertation is that the 10mm cost difference between keeping him and letting him go, assuming he does not accept the $6mm option is not affordable given the high degree of certainty most of us have that nobody will take on Konerko's contract without dumping their own deadweight on us.

cornball
09-23-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Look...you said it was his attitude. I challenged you on that saying he works hard and for the most part has kept his mouth shut.

So you change things up...If he is working hard and trying to get better, then he's being selfish??!?

And since when should the media focus matter? ANd why do you assume Frank to be the leader. Well I think Frank's production is the reason you keep him, why do you point the finger at Frank? Mags is the highest paid player, and supposedly best player, the Alomarsn are the "veterans", Jose the heart, let we put any loses on Frank? Perhaps the pitchers should bear the blame for when they pitched bad?

I'm still trying to see where he has a bad attitude as this thread is supposed to enlighten me on

First, and I'm begging, please tell me how working hard in the offseason, and bringing in Walt at his expense shows Frank to be a detriment? If you mean the "media" focus, well then we are ages away from a coherent argument....the media not liking someone doesn't mean they hurt a ballclub or hurt a lockerroom


Why does him saying "He was born to hit" mean anything to the 1B/DH talk? When Frank slumped(as all hitters do from time to time) he still did his damnest to work through. He let the team know he could still play 1B, and the numbers have always said that he hits better when he plays 1B, yet he didn't say word one about it when Jerry moved him back

And you say nothing about PK? You don't think the reporters were baiting Frank every day about PK's lack of production in the 1st Half after what Paulie said last year? Did he say word one?

He works hard, He puts up good numbers, He has been a good citizen for the club and will make less than countless others...If he gets the 6 million figure next year, he will make less than C. Lee, a ton less than Mags, less than Carl Everett did last year, twice what Scott Sullivan's option calls for....and you think that is all he could get?

Frank is the leader of the club....period. I been watching the Sox for 30 years. Frank from day one has intimidated Manuel. Manuel and Thomas had a small spat in the JM first year but Manuel never moved Thomas from the 3 spot (except years later for a few days), so with that said Frank has great influence on the team.

*It is my view, all major leauge players work hard in the off season.

*The "born to hit" comment was to show, it shouldnt matter if he was on the field or not.....he should hit.

*If Valentin is the heart of the team we need a transplant.

When Frank is down or in a slump, he pouts, as a leader and with more tenure than 99% of every Sox player in history, it has effects. I am not knocking production, I am saying he is infectious to the others, and I dont believe we will win a World Series with him on the team.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Frank is the leader of the club....period. I been watching the Sox for 30 years. Frank from day one has intimidated Manuel. Manuel and Thomas had a small spat in the JM first year but Manuel never moved Thomas from the 3 spot (except years later for a few days), so with that said Frank has great influence on the team.

*It is my view, all major leauge players work hard in the off season.

*The "born to hit" comment was to show, it shouldnt matter if he was on the field or not.....he should hit.

*If Valentin is the heart of the team we need a transplant.

When Frank is down or in a slump, he pouts, as a leader and with more tenure than 99% of every Sox player in history, it has effects. I am not knocking production, I am saying he is infectious to the others, and I dont believe we will win a World Series with him on the team.

I have been as hard on Frank as anybody, and I like him. But I won't go so far as to say we won't win with him. George and others pounced on me yesterday for saying that if I was picking a guy to lose Frank might get my vote b/c of age, declining production and then attitude would be last on my list.

That being said we can win with Frank on the team, I just think he can't be your leader in the clubhouse. He has to be a spoke in the wheel but he can't be "the wheel". Frank may have been born to hit, but he just wasn't born to lead.

I think having guys like Carl who have strong personalities and play balls out all the time help take pressure off of Frank, but also allows them to speak their mind without worrying about what Frank thinks. Ask PK about that with his fiasco last year.

Frank needs good pieces around him, he doesn't do well when the pressure is mounting on him. He tries to hard, and we have seen it in his playoff appearances, as well as last week in Minny. But it would definitely be sad watching him in another uniform.

NYSF

PaleHoseGeorge
09-23-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I have been as hard on Frank as anybody, and I like him. But I won't go so far as to say we won't win with him. George and others pounced on me yesterday for saying that if I was picking a guy to lose Frank might get my vote b/c of age, declining production and then attitude would be last on my list.

That being said we can win with Frank on the team, I just think he can't be your leader in the clubhouse. He has to be a spoke in the wheel but he can't be "the wheel". Frank may have been born to hit, but he just wasn't born to lead.

I think having guys like Carl who have strong personalities and play balls out all the time help take pressure off of Frank, but also allows them to speak their mind without worrying about what Frank thinks. Ask PK about that with his fiasco last year.

Frank needs good pieces around him, he doesn't do well when the pressure is mounting on him. He tries to hard, and we have seen it in his playoff appearances, as well as last week in Minny. But it would definitely be sad watching him in another uniform.

NYSF

Nobody is arguing whether or not Frank is the leader of the clubhouse. He's not. Nearly all of us realized sometime back in high school that the best athletes on the team were rarely the smartest and often lacked the charisma and personal fortitude to be a leader.

Frank Thomas resembles nothing so much as an arrested adolescent. The point is really underscored by that note he brought from his doctor and pulled from his pocket for Manuel in spring training '00. He's not a leader. I suggest we all start dealing with it.

This man is a leader. He also sucks. -------> :walnuts

If our anemic offense could replace the offensive production that Frank brings to the table at a price of $6 million or less, I might fall in line with all the irrational Frank haters around here who simply can't get over their own confused notions about his true value to the team.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Nobody is arguing whether or not Frank is the leader of the clubhouse. He's not. Nearly all of us realized sometime back in high school that the best athletes on the team were rarely the smartest and often lacked the charisma and personal fortitude to be a leader.

Frank Thomas resembles nothing so much as an arrested adolescent. The point is really underscored by that note he brought from his doctor and pulled from his pocket for Manuel in spring training '00. He's not a leader. I suggest we all start dealing with it.

This man is a leader. He also sucks. -------> :walnuts

If our anemic offense could replace the offensive production that Frank brings to the table at a price of $6 million or less, I might fall in line with all the irrational Frank haters around here who simply can't get over their own confused notions about his true value to the team.


I agree in part George, but you can't say we are all "Frank haters" just b/c we don't all agree with yours and others assessment of Franks perceived value or production. The point of my post was to say that I think we can win with Frank. However I think we can win without him as well. It would be more difficult b/c you can't just replace someone like him for 6 million dollars. So on that we agree.

I just get tired of being pigeon-holed as a Frank hater b/c we criticize him. Susan Waldman who does analysis for the YES network said something that we all have been saying in describing this team. She noted that Maggs, Frank, PK, CLee all swing for the fences come hell or high water and thats why the Sox are one of the leauge leaders in DP's. Of course that wasn't a newsflash to us, but interesting that she observed that.

That is what made that '00 team special to me, is b/c they knew how to play small ball. They ALWAYS drove in a runner from 3rd with less than 2 out, they ALWAYS moved the runner over with less than 2 outs. I can't remember what their avg was with risp, but it was in the top 5 in the AL that year. You had guys like Abbott, H Perry,and even CLee, and PK as young players gave themeselves up to score a run. Frank also did a good job of that, but somehow they lost that philosophy.

Oh btw ---Mornin George!!

NYSF

PaleHoseGeorge
09-23-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I agree in part George, but you can't say we are all "Frank haters" just b/c we don't all agree with yours and others assessment of Franks perceived value or production. The point of my post was to say that I think we can win with Frank. However I think we can win without him as well. It would be more difficult b/c you can't just replace someone like him for 6 million dollars. So on that we agree.

I just get tired of being pigeon-holed as a Frank hater b/c we criticize him. Susan Waldman who does analysis for the YES network said something that we all have been saying in describing this team. She noted that Maggs, Frank, PK, CLee all swing for the fences come hell or high water and thats why the Sox are one of the leauge leaders in DP's. Of course that wasn't a newsflash to us, but interesting that she observed that.

That is what made that '00 team special to me, is b/c they knew how to play small ball. They ALWAYS drove in a runner from 3rd with less than 2 out, they ALWAYS moved the runner over with less than 2 outs. I can't remember what their avg was with risp, but it was in the top 5 in the AL that year. You had guys like Abbott, H Perry,and even CLee, and PK as young players gave themeselves up to score a run. Frank also did a good job of that, but somehow they lost that philosophy.

Oh btw ---Mornin George!!

NYSF

Well, Mornin to you too, NY! :smile:

I loved the 2000 team. The pitching was suspect but the offense was unstoppable. What I remember was the team breaking a franchise record for runs scored and home runs. They also had the #1 offense in the league. I don't recall much about moving runners along, but I know they were far less suspectible to hitting into double-plays.

Personally I would be satisfied if Sox hitters learned how to avoid grounding the ball in the infield with first base occupied and less than two out. Preventing double-play grounders will do more to improve our anemic offensive production than any amount of bunting. That's my definition of situational hitting.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-23-2003, 10:22 AM
Oh BTW, it's not Frank hitting into the double-plays. It's Konerko and Ordonez that are. In fact the opposing managers are walking Frank to get to Ordonez and set up the double-play.

It happened again last night. Weaver was brought in and walked Frank on 5 pitches. Next came Ordonez. Weaver went right after Ordonez with a first-pitch fastball. Maggs was sitting on it for an 0-0 walkoff dinger. If Maggs misses that pitch (and that is what Torre and Weaver were counting on), he is behind in the count and the double-play opportunity looms even larger. This has been happening all season...

Statistically speaking, the 0-0 pitch is the hardest to hit safely. This time Maggs beat the odds. He is no kind of situational hitter.

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I just get tired of being pigeon-holed as a Frank hater b/c we criticize him. Susan Waldman who does analysis for the YES network said something that we all have been saying in describing this team. She noted that Maggs, Frank, PK, CLee all swing for the fences come hell or high water and thats why the Sox are one of the leauge leaders in DP's. Of course that wasn't a newsflash to us, but interesting that she observed that.

As a Frank fan, I use the term Frank Hater because I don't understand the intense attitude some people bring when it comes to getting rid of the big man. They will make stuff up, use quotes from "The Moron", rip his batting average (while ignoring the rest of his stats), say things like "He isn't as good as he was 8 years ago" and trash his 2001 and 2002 stats (while ignoring the career threatening injury he had in 2001 - after playing 20 games).

The vehemence which some of them bring to the table is startling for someone who has long supported Frank. After a while, I just get tired of watching people throw the same garbage at the wall, hoping some of it will stick, so you lob some back in the hope they will see how stupid it all is.

Have to give the big man credit. Every WSI thread that talks about him and his future ends up getting a tomato award...

jabrch
09-23-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If our anemic offense could replace the offensive production that Frank brings to the table at a price of $6 million or less, I might fall in line with all the irrational Frank haters around here who simply can't get over their own confused notions about his true value to the team.


George,

First, nobody is a Frank-Hater. At least I haven't heard that sentiment here. There are as many Frank-Haters as there are Frank-o-philes or Frank-suckers...none...we are all Sox fans and want what we think is best for the teams.

Second, the question isn't can you replace Franks hitting for 6 or less. That's wholly irrelevant.

If he choses to come back at 6mm, he will be welcomed with open arms.

If he doesn't, there is a 10MM opportunity cost of bringing him back. Salary = 8 and 2MM buyout. The question is, for 10MM should you keep Colon and get a lesser calibre DH than Frank (David Ortiz is a FA and Boston only paid him 1.5 this year.) or should you pay Frank and then have Wright and Adkins (or something like that) as your #4 and #5 starters.

I, for one, think that this team can not win if we lose Colon and don't replace him with a frontline stater. I think we could win if we lost Frank and replaced him with a 1.5MM FA DH.

Deadguy
09-23-2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by jabrch

I, for one, think that this team can not win if we lose Colon and don't replace him with a frontline stater. I think we could win if we lost Frank and replaced him with a 1.5MM FA DH.

As Maurice pointed out last night, we are only 15th in baseball in Runs Scored, which means at its current state, we are only mediocre offensively.

Dropping one of our best hitters and replacing him with a lesser one, will more than likely drop us to below average offensively.

Thus, for us to be a playoff caliber team, and theoretically become one of the top 8 teams in baseball, we'd have to at least be one of the Top 5 teams in terms of fewest runs allowed.

Is our pitching and defense capable of being that good?

We are set offensively at DH, RF, and LF. At those spots, all the players are in the top 3 in the league offensively, with our RFer and DH arguably being the best. Don't mess with any of those three.

Our problem this year, offensively, has been the mediocre or poor performances from our 1B, 3B, 2B, SS, C, and CFer, for a large bulk of the season. We should concentrate on improvements offensively at all of these positions in order to make us a better team offensively, and thus score more runs.

JRIG
09-23-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy


As Maurice pointed out last night, we are only 15th in baseball in Runs Scored, which means at its current state, we are only mediocre offensively.

Dropping one of our best hitters and replacing him with a lesser one, will more than likely drop us to below average offensively.

Thus, for us to be a playoff caliber team, and theoretically become one of the top 8 teams in baseball, we'd have to at least be one of the Top 5 teams in terms of fewest runs allowed.

Is our pitching and defense capable of being that good?

We are set offensively at DH, RF, and LF. At those spots, all the players are in the top 3 in the league offensively, with our RFer and DH arguably being the best. Don't mess with any of those three.

Our problem this year, offensively, has been the mediocre or poor performances from our 1B, 3B, 2B, SS, C, and CFer, for a large bulk of the season. We should concentrate on improvements offensively at all of these positions in order to make us a better team offensively, and thus score more runs.

I'd like to see us concentrate on getting gus on base in front of our best hitters. For Frank and Mags to struggle to get to 100 RBI is really a poor reflection on our 1 and 2 hitters.

RichH55
09-23-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
As a Frank fan, I use the term Frank Hater because I don't understand the intense attitude some people bring when it comes to getting rid of the big man. They will make stuff up, use quotes from "The Moron", rip his batting average (while ignoring the rest of his stats), say things like "He isn't as good as he was 8 years ago" and trash his 2001 and 2002 stats (while ignoring the career threatening injury he had in 2001 - after playing 20 games).

The vehemence which some of them bring to the table is startling for someone who has long supported Frank. After a while, I just get tired of watching people throw the same garbage at the wall, hoping some of it will stick, so you lob some back in the hope they will see how stupid it all is.

Have to give the big man credit. Every WSI thread that talks about him and his future ends up getting a tomato award...

I agree wholeheartedly here. You can critize anyone of the team for any number of reasons, but when you start reaching and picking on anything, it suggests an agenda...>Not everyone who has critized Frank is a "Frank-Hater", but in no way does that mean there are None

Paulwny
09-23-2003, 01:09 PM
I wonder if yankmee fans are complaining about Giambi as much as the complaining going on here.
This year their numbers are almost identical and Giambi earns almost twice as much as Frank.
Giambi has a supporting cast, Frank doesn't , no one can carry a team all year.

RichH55
09-23-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by cornball


*It is my view, all major leauge players work hard in the off season.

*The "born to hit" comment was to show, it shouldnt matter if he was on the field or not.....he should hit.

*If Valentin is the heart of the team we need a transplant.

When Frank is down or in a slump, he pouts, as a leader and with more tenure than 99% of every Sox player in history, it has effects. I am not knocking production, I am saying he is infectious to the others, and I dont believe we will win a World Series with him on the team.

All work equally hard? What? How many bring in their own batting coaches to try and regain what they had? All work equally hard....Well thank you Pollyanna

The "Born to Hit" comment has NOTHING to do with the DH vs 1B splits. Even at DH he still put up good numbers and has had a career that at many times reminded people of Ted Williams....perhaps thats where the comment derived from?

Born to Hit is actually an argument? It changes the underlying assumptions about a player or the facts of the argument? Like "Hey Frank you were born to hit, so go up there with a blindfold on"........ If he hits better at 1B, then he hits better there, he did everything he could in the offseason to be ready to play there, but he didn't bitch when Jerry moved him away even after a hot stretch

And if he infectious toward others...why no credit for working hard in the offseason, working hard during slumps(watching extra film, taking extra swings, calling Walt), and showing confidence....Don't good things rub off too in your world?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-23-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I agree wholeheartedly here. You can critize anyone of the team for any number of reasons, but when you start reaching and picking on anything, it suggests an agenda...>Not everyone who has critized Frank is a "Frank-Hater", but in no way does that mean there are None

It comes as a surprise to nobody that I agree with these sentiments. Perhaps I should limit my use of the term "Frank haters" to certain individuals (thankfully none of whom post here anymore) that liberally used the term "Big Skirt" in a fashion that would do any Flubs troll proud.

I still don't understand any rational explanation for the criticism I've seen leveled at Frank Thomas. Whether we're talking offensive production, situational hitting, or salary compensation, current, past, or future value, he is always demonstrably preferable to several others on the team. In some categories, he is demonstrably better than the entire Sox roster.

It may not be hate driving these emotions, but it sure isn't rationality either.

jabrch
09-23-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
use quotes from "The Moron"


Voodoo...Those were quotes from FRANK. Not from Jay. They were in a Mariotti article, but Frank, in a conversation with a Minneapolis Star-Tribune report was the one who said, "I wouldn't say staying is a priority." Don't blame Mariotti for what Frank says. Come on... Rather than "so you lob some back in the hope they will see how stupid it all is" lets all deal with reality and ignore the trolls on both sides. They aren't Frank-Haters or Frank-Lovers....Trolls are Trolls...

jabrch
09-23-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
It comes as a surprise to nobody that I agree with these sentiments. Perhaps I should limit my use of the term "Frank haters" to certain individuals (thankfully none of whom post here anymore) that liberally used the term "Big Skirt" in a fashion that would do any Flubs troll proud.

I still don't understand any rational explanation for the criticism I've seen leveled at Frank Thomas. Whether we're talking offensive production, situational hitting, or salary compensation, current, past, or future value, he is always demonstrably preferable to several others on the team. In some categories, he is demonstrably better than the entire Sox roster.

It may not be hate driving these emotions, but it sure isn't rationality either.

I know that you recognize the economic realities of the situation. Unless we unload PK and do not have to take back any salary in return, and Frank choses to not take the 6MM player option, what choice do we have? Can we really tie 35MM into our corner OFs, our 1B and our DH? Can we assemble a team with 20MM to spend on the rest of the players that is competitive?

Bottom line...Frank at 8 (and forgoing the $2mm buyout) means, in all likelihood, that we can't keep Colon and that we use someone currently in the organization as the 4th/5th starter. I'd rather keep Colon and then seek a lower end DH (Phelps, Cust, Cash, LeCroix, Ortiz, Wooten or Durazo just to name some off the top of my head) rather than have to see Rauch and Wright in my rotation 2 out of every 5 days.

I am open to realistic ideas. But the people who say just give Konerko away are not being realistic. For free - I don't think anyone will take him. I am open to trading Mags or anything else...I just think that if Frank passes the 6MM, he is going to be let go... I'd miss him...but I think it would play out that way.

idseer
09-23-2003, 01:31 PM
it continues to astonish me how the 'frank lovers' try to pidgeonhole some of us who think letting frank go wouldn't be the end of the world. they use 'frank-hater' the way rush uses 'liberal'. i believe some folks here have come up with pretty reasonable reasons why it might not be such a bad thing to let frank go. those reasons are usually ignored and we are fed a constant stream about what frank has done for the sox in the past . personally i don't much care about the past. i want the best team jr's money will happen to accomodate. the suggestion that an extra $10 might be better utilized elsewhere is not unreasonable, ignorant, hate-filled, or any other label some have come up with.

i know that if frank were not on this team right now and had never been, and you were asked what would you go after .... an ace pitcher or a 40 homerun guy who is slow, can't field well, strikes out a lot, has a big mouth, and is going to be 36 years old, i'd BET you'd go for the pitcher!

Paulwny
09-23-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by jabrch

Bottom line...Frank at 8 (and forgoing the $2mm buyout) means, in all likelihood, that we can't keep Colon and that we use someone currently in the organization as the 4th/5th starter. I'd rather keep Colon and then seek a lower end DH (Phelps, Cust, Cash, LeCroix, Ortiz, Wooten or Durazo just to name some off the top of my head) rather than have to see Rauch and Wright in my rotation 2 out of every 5 days.


Unless JR has a change of heart about giving pitchers long term contracts , forget about Colon, he'll be replacing Clemens.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-23-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Voodoo...Those were quotes from FRANK. Not from Jay. They were in a Mariotti article, but Frank, in a conversation with a Minneapolis Star-Tribune report was the one who said, "I wouldn't say staying is a priority." Don't blame Mariotti for what Frank says. Come on... Rather than "so you lob some back in the hope they will see how stupid it all is" lets all deal with reality and ignore the trolls on both sides. They aren't Frank-Haters or Frank-Lovers....Trolls are Trolls...

Now here is something we can agree on. Frank has no clue how to handle the media. He never has and he never will do it well. As a service to Frank, we ought to start a thread around here listing all the sports cliches Frank should use whenever he is approached by the media.

Compare the innumerable situations Frank causes for himself by the things he SAYS to the infinitely worse situation that phony Sammy Sosa causes for himself by the things he DOES. (i.e. wife beating, charity fraud, corked bats, steroid testing tirades, etc.) Sammy the Cheat gets away with it because he can play the media like a fiddle. Always has, always will. Here's his favorite cliche, the one that has clowns like Moronotti licking his ass:

:shammy
"Beisbol hab ben berry berry goood to mea!"

So is more worthy of our condemnation?

Deadguy
09-23-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i know that if frank were not on this team right now and had never been, and you were asked what would you go after .... an ace pitcher or a 40 homerun guy who is slow, can't field well, strikes out a lot, has a big mouth, and is going to be 36 years old, i'd BET you'd go for the pitcher!

The difference is that the option to keep Frank is pretty straight forward and clear cut.

The option to keep Colon has so many different variables to it. It all depends on Colon's desire to stay in Chicago, what his asking price is, the interest he will receive on the open market, etc.

You make it sound like the option to cut Frank and keep Colon is clear cut, when the two may not even be related at all.

This issue of Frank vs. Colon is ridiculous, since losing either will make us worse.

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Voodoo...Those were quotes from FRANK. Not from Jay. They were in a Mariotti article, but Frank, in a conversation with a Minneapolis Star-Tribune report was the one who said, "I wouldn't say staying is a priority." Don't blame Mariotti for what Frank says. Come on... Rather than "so you lob some back in the hope they will see how stupid it all is" lets all deal with reality and ignore the trolls on both sides. They aren't Frank-Haters or Frank-Lovers....Trolls are Trolls...


Jay has been smearing Frank for a long time, so if he happens to write an article that is dead on (and the next one will be the first one, IMO) it would still be hard for me to read it with a straight face and say, "You go, Jay." I didn't create the ground rules, he did. Jay IS a Frank hater. Jay is a guy who doesn't go to clubhouses. Jay is a guy who got his quote 3rd hand and picked on it. He doesn't even have the guts to go to Minnesota and get his own quotes or to ask to listen to the whole interview before passing judgement. He just grabbed the quote he could make look the worst and ran with it. You read Jay's interpretation of an event he did not witness and accepted it. That's your perogative, but I am not going to be that gullible...

idseer
09-23-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
The difference is that the option to keep Frank is pretty straight forward and clear cut.

The option to keep Colon has so many different variables to it. It all depends on Colon's desire to stay in Chicago, what his asking price is, the interest he will receive on the open market, etc.

You make it sound like the option to cut Frank and keep Colon is clear cut, when the two may not even be related at all.

This issue of Frank vs. Colon is ridiculous, since losing either will make us worse.

no, i know it's not clear. i have no clue as to what colon wants. i'm only saying it's reasonable to look into as opposed to simply saying frank is untouchable.

the option to not keep frank definitely will mean $10 M more to spend tho. i do think we can do better with that money. that being said i do agree frank is worth keeping at $6M. if he decides to stay for that i'm a happy fan.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-23-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
....This issue of Frank vs. Colon is ridiculous, since losing either will make us worse.

Exactly. If the issue is allocating scarce financial resources towards making the team BETTER, we shouldn't be focused on choosing between ballplayers who help us win. We should focus on getting rid of the ballplayers who help us lose.

<cough>Konerko<cough>

I'll gladly pay for the privilege of getting his fat, long-term contract off the payroll ledger.

"A penny saved is a penny earned."
--Ben Franklin

"A million saved is a million earned."
--PHG

idseer
09-23-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Exactly. If the issue is allocating scarce financial resources towards making the team BETTER, we shouldn't be focused on choosing between ballplayers who help us win. We should focus on getting rid of the ballplayers who help us lose.

<cough>Konerko<cough>

I'll gladly pay for the privilege of getting his fat, long-term contract off the payroll ledger.

"A penny saved is a penny earned."
--Ben Franklin

"A million saved is a million earned."
--PHG

in theory that's true enough. but do you really think we can drop konerko someplace without losing money?
i'm afraid it WILL come down to choosing between ballplayers who can help us win. ergo this entire conversation.

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by idseer
it continues to astonish me how the 'frank lovers' try to pidgeonhole some of us who think letting frank go wouldn't be the end of the world. they use 'frank-hater' the way rush uses 'liberal'. i believe some folks here have come up with pretty reasonable reasons why it might not be such a bad thing to let frank go. those reasons are usually ignored and we are fed a constant stream about what frank has done for the sox in the past . personally i don't much care about the past. i want the best team jr's money will happen to accomodate. the suggestion that an extra $10 might be better utilized elsewhere is not unreasonable, ignorant, hate-filled, or any other label some have come up with.

i know that if frank were not on this team right now and had never been, and you were asked what would you go after .... an ace pitcher or a 40 homerun guy who is slow, can't field well, strikes out a lot, has a big mouth, and is going to be 36 years old, i'd BET you'd go for the pitcher!

Okay, let's ignore the past. Can you replace Frank's production for this year (2003) for $6-8M next year?

Here we go with the silly arguments again. Frank is slow? Oh no! Frank can't field? When did DH/1B become a defensive position? Frank has a big mouth? Heavens, what will we do? Has that mouthiness ever said he WANTS to leave or that he DOESN'T want to win?

In response to your question about the pitcher and Jabrch's comments about budgetary constraints, why should we as fans want the team to have to make these decisions? Is it our fault as fans that they put themselves in this position by signing Konerko to a ridiculous contract?

I don't want to make that decision. I want them to find a way to do both and if they can't then they need new people running the team, period. They need an owner who understands what it takes to win and market the team. We want a GM who won't mess up big money contracts to average players. We want a manager who will play the best players at their best positions. We don't want to see one of this year's team top hitter released because of a few million dollar difference.

I'm a fan. I want to have my cake and eat it too. You say, that's unrealistic. I say, management is to blame. You say, we have to make choices. I say, screw 'em. Build me a winner that includes Frank Thomas. You say, Frank isn't worth the money and I laugh out loud.

Yes, some of my decision is based on what Frank has done while playing for the Sox. Not all of it, a small amount (10%), but I feel that is a valid 10% when the player in question is still producing at a league elite level...

JC456
09-23-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I would rather see Frank on base for Mags and Everett/Lee than counting on guys like Crede and Konerko to drive him in. Frank has the highest OBP on the team. I want our best chance to drive him in as often as possible.

How many times this year did Kim have to hold Frank at third when Mags got a single? Or Everett? You forget the big man can't run very well, doesn't react to the ball when it is hit. I'm still waiting for him to score from second on a basehit. He doesn't take an extra base going from first to third on a single either. Your analogy is all wrong. He shouldn't be getting on base to score, although there is nothing wrong with that, however, as a big man, he is supposed to be the RBI guy.

Also, on this team today we have five players who can't run worth a lick:

Thomas( because we're already talking about him)
Konerko
Alamar (Sandy)
Crede
Mags

Yet all you Frank supporters can't see that replacing two of these five with better speed would help this team. We'd definitely score more runs with more speed. That's is how KC and Minnesota do it today. They don't have big Frank!!! :D:

You can't prove that replacing Thomas you won't get his numbers. You just can't.

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Also, on this team today we have five players who can't run worth a lick:

Thomas( because we're already talking about him)
Konerko
Alamar (Sandy)
Crede
Mags

Yet all you Frank supporters can't see that replacing two of these five with better speed would help this team. We'd definitely score more runs with more speed. That's is how KC and Minnesota do it today. They don't have big Frank!!! :D:

You can't prove that replacing Thomas you won't get his numbers. You just can't.

Maggs isn't slow, but he doesn't steal bases well. He doesn't seem to understand the fundamentals of baserunning very well either.

Alomar probably won't be back.

Konerko should be traded.

Shouldn't it be your responsibility to suggest ways to replace Frank's numbers? I mean you can never prove a negative, so your point is moot.

idseer
09-23-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, let's ignore the past. Can you replace Frank's production for this year (2003) for $6-8M next year?

82 r's (tied for 67th) and 102rbi's? (tied for 28th)? yes! i do believe that can be done.

but again (and again and again), it's not just all about replacing those numbers. it's about what this team can afford and what it's biggest needs are. why do you refuse to acknowledge that?

Originally posted by voodoochile
In response to your question about the pitcher and Jabrch's comments about budgetary constraints, why should we as fans want the team to have to make these decisions? Is it our fault as fans that they put themselves in this position by signing Konerko to a ridiculous contract?

I don't want to make that decision. I want them to find a way to do both and if they can't then they need new people running the team, period. They need an owner who understands what it takes to win and market the team. We want a GM who won't mess up big money contracts to average players. We want a manager who will play the best players at their best positions. We don't want to see one of this year's team top hitter released because of a few million dollar difference.

I'm a fan. I want to have my cake and eat it too. You say, that's unrealistic. I say, management is to blame. You say, we have to make choices. I say, screw 'em. Build me a winner that includes Frank Thomas. You say, Frank isn't worth the money and I laugh out loud.

Yes, some of my decision is based on what Frank has done while playing for the Sox. Not all of it, a small amount (10%), but I feel that is a valid 10% when the player in question is still producing at a league elite level...

if you're asking am i with you on jr selling the team to someone who actually wants to win, the answer is YES!
but when he doesn't and you have to face another season WITH hi at the helm i think you have to look at what you can do within those constraints .... like it or not.

Deadguy
09-23-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by JC456

Yet all you Frank supporters can't see that replacing two of these five with better speed would help this team. We'd definitely score more runs with more speed. That's is how KC and Minnesota do it today. They don't have big Frank!!! :D:

You can't prove that replacing Thomas you won't get his numbers. You just can't.

That's ridiculous reasoning.

What you're implying is that Thomas is holding us back from scoring runs, when the problem lies in other spots in the order.

That's like singling out Dmitri Young for the Tigers being the worst team in baseball offensively.

He is the only one on this team capable of drawing 100 walks.

You're going to have a hard time replacing someone who is in the top ten in the league in OPS.

If you actually believe team speed is that important, then positions such as CF, SS, and 2B (all of which we have numerous options next year) can be filled with speedsters.

idseer
09-23-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
That's ridiculous reasoning.

What you're implying is that Thomas is holding us back from scoring runs, when the problem lies in other spots in the order.

That's like singling out Dmitri Young for the Tigers being the worst team in baseball offensively.

He is the only one on this team capable of drawing 100 walks.

You're going to have a hard time replacing someone who is in the top ten in the league in OPS.

If you actually believe team speed is that important, then positions such as CF, SS, and 2B (all of which we have numerous options next year) can be filled with speedsters.

wow. that's twisted.

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by idseer
82 r's (tied for 67th) and 102rbi's? (tied for 28th)? yes! i do believe that can be done.

but again (and again and again), it's not just all about replacing those numbers. it's about what this team can afford and what it's biggest needs are. why do you refuse to acknowledge that?


The stats you chose to pick on are more team based stats. RBI have to do with players on base in front of him and Runs have to do with the players behind him. Frank hit 40 HR so far, so he has driven himself in almost half of the time he has scored. 40HR and 102 RBI is a pathetic number, IMO. He should be closer ton 120+ with that many HR.

How about his OPS, SLG, OBP and Extra base hits? You still think you can replace those numbers for that much money?

What are the team's biggest needs? A leadoff CF? More pitching? A new SS?

You are still tearing down one of the cornerstones of the offense to make it happen. Frank's numbers are pretty damn close to Maggs numbes (I believe he actually has more RBI to use your stats), and Maggs will make 14M next year and is much more marketable. How about they sign Carl for $5M and move him to RF then spend the other $9M on some of the need positions. Then if they can move Paulie for a bag of baseballs, they have another $8M to play with.

You don't have to drop Frank to make this happen, but it is all you are willing to consider. I don't want to move Maggs, but am pointing out that there are other ways to get the money you need...

JC456
09-23-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
That's ridiculous reasoning.

What you're implying is that Thomas is holding us back from scoring runs, when the problem lies in other spots in the order.

That's like singling out Dmitri Young for the Tigers being the worst team in baseball offensively.

He is the only one on this team capable of drawing 100 walks.

You're going to have a hard time replacing someone who is in the top ten in the league in OPS.

If you actually believe team speed is that important, then positions such as CF, SS, and 2B (all of which we have numerous options next year) can be filled with speedsters.

Yes, I am saying that Frank's inability to score from second on a single cost us this year. Totally, no. But it cost us. No one can predict what the team would do without Frank, and I 'm not saying we need to, but this is the argument on this thread. If you replaced him and a couple of others with team speed and average, you could survive and again I use the KC and Minnesota teams to demonstrate that. They don't have a player like Frank, yet they've scored more runs.

How is that possible given the argurments here you need a 40 HR guy to score runs? How do they do it?

jabrch
09-23-2003, 02:22 PM
My problem with keeping Frank next season has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with his speed!

Deadguy
09-23-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by idseer
82 r's (tied for 67th) and 102rbi's? (tied for 28th)? yes! i do believe that can be done.



These are team based stats.

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 02:29 PM
One other point. Let's look at the team records these past 3 years.

In 2001 Frank got injured in April and never got going. The team finished 3rd and was out of the race in July.

2002: While still recovering from his injury Frank struggles offensively until the last 6 weeks of the season. The Twins dominated the division and the Sox finished second because the rest of the division was pure garbage. They did put together a nice surge when Frank started hitting again.

2003: Frank has had a monster year and several other players have struggled badly. Frank led the Sox offense on a tear in June and the team stayed in the pennant race until that abysmal sweep in Minnesota when the whole team failed to hit. Frank also carried the offense for a good portion of June and August when the Sox were one of the hottest teams in baseball.

Deadguy
09-23-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by JC456


How is that possible given the argurments here you need a 40 HR guy to score runs? How do they do it?

Minnesota's OBP: .342
Kansas City's OBP: .339
Chicago's OBP: .330

I don't believe I ever said we need a guy who hits 40 homeruns. We need more guys who are capable of getting on base, and Thomas is one of the best ever.

idseer
09-23-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The stats you chose to pick on are more team based stats. RBI have to do with players on base in front of him and Runs have to do with the players behind him. Frank hit 40 HR so far, so he has driven himself in almost half of the time he has scored. 40HR and 102 RBI is a pathetic number, IMO. He should be closer ton 120+ with that many HR.

How about his OPS, SLG, OBP and Extra base hits? You still think you can replace those numbers for that much money?

What are the team's biggest needs? A leadoff CF? More pitching? A new SS?

You are still tearing down one of the cornerstones of the offense to make it happen. Frank's numbers are pretty damn close to Maggs numbes (I believe he actually has more RBI to use your stats), and Maggs will make 14M next year and is much more marketable. How about they sign Carl for $5M and move him to RF then spend the other $9M on some of the need positions. Then if they can move Paulie for a bag of baseballs, they have another $8M to play with.

You don't have to drop Frank to make this happen, but it is all you are willing to consider. I don't want to move Maggs, but am pointing out that there are other ways to get the money you need...

you got me wrong voodoo. it's not all i'd consider. it's what this thread is about.

in fact i would consider shipping magglio for the right stuff.

franks numbers may be close to maggs but do you think they will be that way next year? or the year after? i think the odds are way against it.


as to the stats i use i believe they're good enough to go by. they're no different than a lot of other aging sluggers.
as an example look at duke snider. at the age of 31 he hit 42 hr's & had 92 rbi's. but his strikeouts were up ... that and the previous year. he never hit more than 23 after that year. and i'm talking about a guy who was in thomas's class in his prime.
i could probably find many other examples like this.
you believe he'll continue to produce and i don't. but still, at the right price i'd stick with him until his fall becomes more apparent.

maurice
09-23-2003, 02:34 PM
Frank sucks, because every other power hitter and DH/1B in the game runs like Carl Lewis! They should replace Frank with a speedster DH like Edgar Martinez! You need to have speed in the middle of your lineup. Remember how bad the Yanks were when they had that no good, slowpoke Babe Ruth batting third?

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 02:35 PM
:tomatoaward

You go, Big Hurt! :D:

NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, let's ignore the past. Can you replace Frank's production for this year (2003) for $6-8M next year?

Here we go with the silly arguments again. Frank is slow? Oh no! Frank can't field? When did DH/1B become a defensive position? Frank has a big mouth? Heavens, what will we do? Has that mouthiness ever said he WANTS to leave or that he DOESN'T want to win?

In response to your question about the pitcher and Jabrch's comments about budgetary constraints, why should we as fans want the team to have to make these decisions? Is it our fault as fans that they put themselves in this position by signing Konerko to a ridiculous contract?

I don't want to make that decision. I want them to find a way to do both and if they can't then they need new people running the team, period. They need an owner who understands what it takes to win and market the team. We want a GM who won't mess up big money contracts to average players. We want a manager who will play the best players at their best positions. We don't want to see one of this year's team top hitter released because of a few million dollar difference.

I'm a fan. I want to have my cake and eat it too. You say, that's unrealistic. I say, management is to blame. You say, we have to make choices. I say, screw 'em. Build me a winner that includes Frank Thomas. You say, Frank isn't worth the money and I laugh out loud.

Yes, some of my decision is based on what Frank has done while playing for the Sox. Not all of it, a small amount (10%), but I feel that is a valid 10% when the player in question is still producing at a league elite level...


Voodoo is this a musical?

NYSF :D:

jabrch
09-23-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Frank sucks, because every other power hitter and DH/1B in the game runs like Carl Lewis! They should replace Frank with a speedster DH like Edgar Martinez! You need to have speed in the middle of your lineup. Remember how bad the Yanks were when they had that no good, slowpoke Babe Ruth batting third?


Ahhhh...the old irrelevant sarcasm routine...

I can do the other side of that....Frank is so fast, let him bunt and get inside the IF HRs.... Geez....

Deadguy
09-23-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by idseer

as to the stats i use i believe they're good enough to go by. they're no different than a lot of other aging sluggers.
as an example look at duke snider. at the age of 31 he hit 42 hr's & had 92 rbi's. but his strikeouts were up ... that and the previous year. he never hit more than 23 after that year. and i'm talking about a guy who was in thomas's class in his prime.
i could probably find many other examples like this.
you believe he'll continue to produce and i don't. but still, at the right price i'd stick with him until his fall becomes more apparent.

Oh please. There's no reason to go back 40 to 50 years and look for players who declined in their mid to late 30s, because that has little to no relevance to today's athlete.

With the knowledge about weight training, nutrition, and conditioning that today's athletes have. Guys like Rafael Palmeiro, Fred Mcgriff, Edgar Martinez, Andres Galaragga, and Barry Bonds have all enjoyed career years at 35+, and managed to perform at close to peak levels.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Minnesota's OBP: .342
Kansas City's OBP: .339
Chicago's OBP: .330

I don't believe I ever said we need a guy who hits 40 homeruns. We need more guys who are capable of getting on base, and Thomas is one of the best ever.

I agree that we need more baserunners. The problem is, is that Frank should be the guy driving in the guys getting on base. How many times have we seen a 2 out walk to Frank to have him die at first or even get to 3rd on a double and die.

The difference between us and Minny and KC, they have guys who can steal 2nd with 2 out and score on a single. We need 3 hits to score Frank, PK, or Maggs from first. None of those guys can go from 1st to home on a double.

So for stats sake yea Frank gets on base but what good does it do if he can only score on a homerun?

NYSF

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Voodoo is this a musical?

NYSF :D:

Unfortunately it's a comedy and the fans are the butt of the joke...

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I agree that we need more baserunners. The problem is, is that Frank should be the guy driving in the guys getting on base. How many times have we seen a 2 out walk to Frank to have him die at first or even get to 3rd on a double and die.

The difference between us and Minny and KC, they have guys who can steal 2nd with 2 out and score on a single. We need 3 hits to score Frank, PK, or Maggs from first. None of those guys can go from 1st to home on a double.

So for stats sake yea Frank gets on base but what good does it do if he can only score on a homerun?

NYSF

How many teams have base stealing threats in the heart of their order?

idseer
09-23-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Oh please. There's no reason to go back 40 to 50 years and look for players who declined in their mid to late 30s, because that has little to no relevance to today's athlete.

With the knowledge about weight training, nutrition, and conditioning that today's athletes have. Guys like Rafael Palmeiro, Fred Mcgriff, Edgar Martinez, Andres Galaragga, and Barry Bonds have all enjoyed career years at 35+, and managed to perform at close to peak levels.

you make a good point. tho i still believe it's harder for a man as big as frank is to maintain peak levels into his late 30's.
again, he's worth it at $6M. i just think i'd go another direction at $10M.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
How many teams have base stealing threats in the heart of their order?

You are missing the point. Deadguy used Frank as an example of a guys who helps us by getting on base. My point is that we don't need Frank walking with 2 outs to help our on base %. We need guys in front of him to get on so that they can be driven in. This also extends much further than the heart of our order.

Frank
Maggs
Carlos
Carl
PK
Crede

You got 6 or your nine guys who have no shot(exclude Carlos for now) of stealing a base or even playing hit and run with. That is why I think the choice is who do we keep as sluggers, b/c our lineup is redundant.

NYSF

JRIG
09-23-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
You are missing the point. Deadguy used Frank as an example of a guys who helps us by getting on base. My point is that we don't need Frank walking with 2 outs to help our on base %. We need guys in front of him to get on so that they can be driven in. This also extends much further than the heart of our order.


You are only given 27 outs every game to score as many runs as possible. Every time Frank walks, he is extending the inning, not using an out, and allowing Mags an opportunity to drive him in. That is very valuable.

I agree that we need more guys in front of him to get on. But I don't understand how you don't see how Frank is the best of both worlds: a guy who can drive in runnners when they do get on in front of him, and if not, a guy who can get on base and give guys behind him an RBI opportunity.

I'll take a slower baserunner with a .400 OBP than a fast baserunner with a .310 OBP any day of the week. It's not even a contest.

maurice
09-23-2003, 03:17 PM
Normally, it would be considered a VERY GOOD THING for a player to walk with 2 outs and the CLEANUP HITTER on deck. Unfortuntely, Maggs has been unproductive this season, particularly compared to last season. He certainly doesn't look like a $14 mil/year player.

In any event, never before has anyone ever complained that a power hitting DH/1B can't run or throw, since these factors are only marginally relevant. A rational observer would ask how often the DH/1B gets on base (often) and whether he hits for power (indeed) to determine whether he's worth $6 or $8 mil (he certainly is). The irrational criticisms were invented to attack Frank. Like PHG, I'm at a loss to come up with a motive other than Frank hatred.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
You are only given 27 outs every game to score as many runs as possible. Every time Frank walks, he is extending the inning, not using an out, and allowing Mags an opportunity to drive him in. That is very valuable.

I agree that we need more guys in front of him to get on. But I don't understand how you don't see how Frank is the best of both worlds: a guy who can drive in runnners when they do get on in front of him, and if not, a guy who can get on base and give guys behind him an RBI opportunity.

I'll take a slower baserunner with a .400 OBP than a fast baserunner with a .310 OBP any day of the week. It's not even a contest.

Please explain to me in reality how Frank on first is a REAL rbi oppt? He can only score on a triple or HR. The problem is not Frank per se its that we have 5 other guys like him. They all are in the same boat, my point is if we keep frank then we need some guys who do something other than try to hit 3 run homers.

Look at the Twins b/c the just beat our brains out. They have guys like Hunter, Jones, Hocking, Mohr, etc. Will they ever have the power and OBP that Thomas has? Never. However they can extend an inning not by just walking, but can steal second and score on a single. Frank cannot do that, thus he may help turn the lineup over, but rarely does it lead to 2 out runs.

NYSF

JRIG
09-23-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Please explain to me in reality how Frank on first is a REAL rbi oppt? He can only score on a triple or HR. The problem is not Frank per se its that we have 5 other guys like him.

The point is that there is NOBODY else like Frank Thomas on the White Sox roster, and very few like him in the league. If you classify him as "slow," then yes, there are a lot of slow guys on this team.

But, there is no one else on this team capable of putting up a .400 OBP. There is no one else on this team capable of walking 100 times. There is no one else of this team that has ever hit 40 home runs. There is no one else on this team that scares the living hell out of the opponents. There is no one else on this team doing all of this for a bargain price of $6 million next year (if Frank exercises his option). Billy Koch will make more than Frank Thomas next year.

In terms of Frank on first being an RBI opportunity, he has scored more than 100 runs 9 times in his career. He normally has around 70 extra base hits a year. That means 35 times a season (or so) Frank Thomas is scoring after a single or a walk. And it's not always a home run and a triple. Two singles will do the trick too. It's a matter of giving players the opportunity to knock you in. Frank's walks do that.

RKMeibalane
09-23-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
In terms of Frank on first being an RBI opportunity, he has scored more than 100 runs 9 times in his career. He normally has around 70 extra base hits a year. That means 35 times a season (or so) Frank Thomas is scoring after a single or a walk. And it's not always a home run and a triple. Two singles will do the trick too. It's a matter of giving players the opportunity to knock you in. Frank's walks do that.

It is extremely perplexing to me why some people want to blame Frank's speed, or lack thereof, on the fact that the guys hitting behind him in the order haven't been driving him in. As you pointed out, he has scored over one hundred runs several times, and he has never been a "speed-burner" while doing it. So at some point, the people hitting behind him were getting the job done, but they haven't been this year. It's not Frank's fault that Maggs or Konerko has turned into a double-play machine. It's not his responsibility to teach those guys how to hit with men in scoring position.

If you ask me, I think a lot of the team's problems, as far as playing solid fundamental baseball are concerned, can be traced back to Jerry Manuel. For whatever reason, this has been a problem ever since he took over as manager. The Sox need to bring someone in who has a sophisticated knowledge of the game. That alone will help them improve by leaps and bounds.

RichH55
09-23-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by JC456
How many times this year did Kim have to hold Frank at third when Mags got a single? Or Everett? You forget the big man can't run very well, doesn't react to the ball when it is hit. I'm still waiting for him to score from second on a basehit. He doesn't take an extra base going from first to third on a single either. Your analogy is all wrong. He shouldn't be getting on base to score, although there is nothing wrong with that, however, as a big man, he is supposed to be the RBI guy.

Also, on this team today we have five players who can't run worth a lick:

Thomas( because we're already talking about him)
Konerko
Alamar (Sandy)
Crede
Mags

Yet all you Frank supporters can't see that replacing two of these five with better speed would help this team. We'd definitely score more runs with more speed. That's is how KC and Minnesota do it today. They don't have big Frank!!! :D:

You can't prove that replacing Thomas you won't get his numbers. You just can't.

The other day against KC he stretched a single into a double against Beltran(who supposedly has a good arm)...Well I agree that Frank is not the fastest guy in the world...HE is a smart baserunner, not the slowest guy on the team....and if he gets on base at a similar rate and his speed hasn't decreased over the last 5 years(He's never been Willie Harris) then the blame for not scoring runs falls on those behind him......RBI is a team stat for a reason

RichH55
09-23-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
My problem with keeping Frank next season has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with his speed!

Well at least I can't hit you on Nitpicking:)

RichH55
09-23-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by idseer
you got me wrong voodoo. it's not all i'd consider. it's what this thread is about.

in fact i would consider shipping magglio for the right stuff.

franks numbers may be close to maggs but do you think they will be that way next year? or the year after? i think the odds are way against it.


as to the stats i use i believe they're good enough to go by. they're no different than a lot of other aging sluggers.
as an example look at duke snider. at the age of 31 he hit 42 hr's & had 92 rbi's. but his strikeouts were up ... that and the previous year. he never hit more than 23 after that year. and i'm talking about a guy who was in thomas's class in his prime.
i could probably find many other examples like this.
you believe he'll continue to produce and i don't. but still, at the right price i'd stick with him until his fall becomes more apparent.

Anectodtal(sic) evidence from another era?

RichH55
09-23-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Oh please. There's no reason to go back 40 to 50 years and look for players who declined in their mid to late 30s, because that has little to no relevance to today's athlete.

With the knowledge about weight training, nutrition, and conditioning that today's athletes have. Guys like Rafael Palmeiro, Fred Mcgriff, Edgar Martinez, Andres Galaragga, and Barry Bonds have all enjoyed career years at 35+, and managed to perform at close to peak levels.

Damn you and your observations! Though this is anectodal(sic, man I can't spell that word) too.....I think it happens to be based on pretty reasonable thought, especially since Frank's numbers were better this year than last year, and his HR's were near his best ever, while his other numbers were good as well

RichH55
09-23-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Please explain to me in reality how Frank on first is a REAL rbi oppt? He can only score on a triple or HR. The problem is not Frank per se its that we have 5 other guys like him. They all are in the same boat, my point is if we keep frank then we need some guys who do something other than try to hit 3 run homers.

Look at the Twins b/c the just beat our brains out. They have guys like Hunter, Jones, Hocking, Mohr, etc. Will they ever have the power and OBP that Thomas has? Never. However they can extend an inning not by just walking, but can steal second and score on a single. Frank cannot do that, thus he may help turn the lineup over, but rarely does it lead to 2 out runs.

NYSF

You are taking the running things to ridiculous extremes....Just like when people were complaining about his arm....Below Average doesn't mean "never"

Are you saying you don't think Frank would get first to third on a single with 2 outs to right? Cmon....He's not a speed demon, but he is a smart baserunner, who can get moving(though his accleration isn't the best).......Did anyone else see him get the double against KC which was the dictionary version of stretching a single into a double? All Hustle and smarts on that play and on a CF with a good arm as well.


Apparently his main weaknesses (from reading numerous threads)
1.) Running Fast
2.) Throwing the ball as a First Baseman


Do I pretty much have that right

And for the cost-benefit crowd out there.....For Frank it either cost 6 million or 8 million in terms of contract....You have many choices to make....even if you assume you can't move Konerko...Why don't we make other wise decesions instead of cutting off the nose to spite the face?

RichH55
09-23-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
You are taking the running things to ridiculous extremes....Just like when people were complaining about his arm....Below Average doesn't mean "never"

Are you saying you don't think Frank would get first to third on a single with 2 outs to right? Cmon....He's not a speed demon, but he is a smart baserunner, who can get moving(though his accleration isn't the best).......Did anyone else see him get the double against KC which was the dictionary version of stretching a single into a double? All Hustle and smarts on that play and on a CF with a good arm as well.


Apparently his main weaknesses (from reading numerous threads)
1.) Running Fast
2.) Throwing the ball as a First Baseman


Do I pretty much have that right

And for the cost-benefit crowd out there.....For Frank it either cost 6 million or 8 million in terms of contract....You have many choices to make....even if you assume you can't move Konerko...Why don't we make other wise decesions instead of cutting off the nose to spite the face?

Sullivan will be due 3.1 million next year....Do you think that is neccessary when working with a budget? Thats over half of the 6 million and almost half of the 8....and If you think that Frank at 6 is worth keeping, but at 8 is overpriced(I still don't know how him paying us the 2 million would actually occur as it isn't the most straightforward contract)...Wouldn't making a move like this make more sense?

JRIG
09-23-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Apparently his main weaknesses (from reading numerous threads)
1.) Running Fast
2.) Throwing the ball as a First Baseman


Do I pretty much have that right



He also is not a team player and is a cancer in the clubhouse.

RichH55
09-23-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
He also is not a team player and is a cancer in the clubhouse.


Not a team player?

Cancer in the Clubhouse?

Based upon? Arguing with Bevington and JM?

NewyorkSoxFan
09-23-2003, 06:36 PM
You know its kinda pointless to argue this point with all of you b/c no matter what anybody says Frank is never a problem. Or everything he does is right and doesn't hurt the team.

I will tell you this much I think we should all look at Frank and this team more objectively, love him or hate him. Frank is nothing more than a DH at this point in his career. I don't care what he hits at first base. He has also become an all or nothing hitter, I don't care about how many walks he has. I want my leadoff man walking not my #3 hitter.

We have 5 DH type guys in our lineup, now at some point you have to piss or get off the pot with which one stays. But PLEASE stop trying to sell me on how great Frank is anymore b/c he is not great anymore he is good. And I don't care how much he makes b/c some would say where are you gonna find another Ortiz making 1.5 mil to do what he is doing. So we can debate the money all day.

NYSF

cornball
09-23-2003, 06:41 PM
This was initially started to say, would this team be better without Frank, in similar fashion that Seattle was better without Griffey and A-Rod.

We are not Frank haters, rather presenting ideas to what would take this club to the next level under constraints.

The goal is to win the World Series. The team is obvious limited in their spending or they choose to be.

Baseball at every level is won with pitching. The Sox historically have been a team of DH's, since Veeck.

Frank produces, no question, but this is the year for him to leave or you have him for the next several years. With a team budget minded as the Sox and 6,8 and 10MM thru 2006. The Yankees won the Series a few years ago with noone on the team hitting 30 homers Minnesota is winning this year without a 30 homer player but with great range defensively.

A more appropriote question, I guess is rather, what type of team do you prefer, The Sox (Weaver Orioles type teams) of waiting for the long ball or a faster defensive team like the Twins or the Herzog cardinals type of teams? Based on the talent we have and the talent coming back barring block buster moves we may be in this same style for a while.

JRIG
09-23-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Not a team player?

Cancer in the Clubhouse?

Based upon? Arguing with Bevington and JM?

Hell if I know. That's why I put it in teal. :smile:

voodoochile
09-23-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
You know its kinda pointless to argue this point with all of you b/c no matter what anybody says Frank is never a problem. Or everything he does is right and doesn't hurt the team.

I will tell you this much I think we should all look at Frank and this team more objectively, love him or hate him. Frank is nothing more than a DH at this point in his career. I don't care what he hits at first base. He has also become an all or nothing hitter, I don't care about how many walks he has. I want my leadoff man walking not my #3 hitter.

We have 5 DH type guys in our lineup, now at some point you have to piss or get off the pot with which one stays. But PLEASE stop trying to sell me on how great Frank is anymore b/c he is not great anymore he is good. And I don't care how much he makes b/c some would say where are you gonna find another Ortiz making 1.5 mil to do what he is doing. So we can debate the money all day.

NYSF

Actually, I don't think Frank is perfect, I just disagree that the team will be improved by letting him walk away. I am also tired of watching this team under JR dump HOF caliber players because they are a bit pricey for their current level of play (not that I believe Frank is, but that has been the history like it or not).

Come up with some valid reasons (speed and armstrength are lousy reasons to dump a DH/1B, IMO).

Like it or not, Frank has produced this year and yet people claim the inevitable decline is coming.

There are several of other DH type players I would look to dump first to save money. Improve the team around Frank and let him split time at 1B/DH the next few years. You are correct that a team of DH/1B types will struggle at times. But, why not leave well enough alone and look to improve the team elsewhere. Have Frank finish his career as an all-time Sox great and first ballot HOF player and then replace him.

Frank and his contract are NOT part of the problem on this team. In other words, this isn't broken and there are lots of other things that need to be fixed.

RichH55
09-23-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Hell if I know. That's why I put it in teal. :smile:

Has the teal not been working...or am I going color blind....serious question

JRIG
09-23-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Has the teal not been working...or am I going color blind....serious question

It's working just fine on my computer...as is the deep pink when I talk about aquiring Carlos Beltran .

jabrch
09-24-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Frank and his contract are NOT part of the problem on this team. In other words, this isn't broken and there are lots of other things that need to be fixed.

Vodoo, I disagree...I think almost everything on this team is a part of the problem...Except for Carl E and Carlos, I think everyone on the team contributed to its demise in some way and will have glaring faults going into 2004. Frank is obviously far less to blame than many (Koch, Konerko, Buehrle's first half, JM, etc.) but he is one of the ones who (should he decline his 6MM option) we have most control of in terms of his destiny.

I'd be thrilled to trade Konerko for a bag of baseballs and be able ot keep Frank. The problem is, I wholeheartedly believe that nobody will take him FOR FREE. Either way, almost everyone is part of the problem until we find a solution - i.e. a championship