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Win1ForMe
09-21-2003, 10:38 PM
Watching Sports Page and Bruce Levine was on with some interesting news. He believes the White Sox will spend money in the off-season.

Levine cited the ball park renovations as a reason why Reinsdorf would want to keep the team competitive for the division title. Also said 'Dorf was a "baseball fan" and would like to take a shot at winning the Series for a few more years before he sells the team. There was conversations regarding Colon and if the Sox could sign him. Bruce said possibly but also mentioned they might have to settle on someone else as Boston/New York will both go after him hard with long-term deals.

As far as manager, Bruce said Reinsdorf would also spend money for one provided it was a big name who would generate interest with the fan base. Mentioned LaRussa being a free agent and Joe Torre as possible guys for replacing Manuel.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-21-2003, 10:41 PM
Boy, I would feel a whole lot better about all of this positive speculation if it came from somebody more reliable than Bruce Levine.

:?:

FJA
09-21-2003, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boy, I would feel a whole lot better about all of this positive speculation if it came from somebody more reliable than Bruce Levine.

:?:

Ditto, PHG.

SoxxoS
09-21-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Watching Sports Page and Bruce Levine was on with some interesting news. He believes the White Sox will spend money in the off-season.

Levine cited the ball park renovations as a reason why Reinsdorf would want to keep the team competitive for the division title. Also said 'Dorf was a "baseball fan" and would like to take a shot at winning the Series for a few more years before he sells the team. There was conversations regarding Colon and if the Sox could sign him. Bruce said possibly but also mentioned they might have to settle on someone else as Boston/New York will both go after him hard with long-term deals.

As far as manager, Bruce said Reinsdorf would also spend money for one provided it was a big name who would generate interest with the fan base. Mentioned LaRussa being a free agent and Joe Torre as possible guys for replacing Manuel.

The difference between Tony LaRussa and Jerry Manuel from a managerial standpoint is about the same as comparing the difference between Osama Bin Laden and Mother Theresa. They are that different.

TornLabrum
09-21-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boy, I would feel a whole lot better about all of this positive speculation if it came from somebody more reliable than Bruce Levine.

:?:

That's for sure. If Bruce says it, make book that Colon is gone, we go for "The Kids Can Play III," and if Manuel doesn't stay (which is now a possibility since Bruce seems to have him gone), he'll be replaced by Wally Backman or Razor Shines.

TornLabrum
09-21-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
The difference between Tony LaRussa and Jerry Manuel from a managerial standpoint is about the same as comparing the difference between Osama Bin Laden and Mother Theresa. They are that different.

Which is Osama and which is Mother Theresa?

WinningUgly!
09-21-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe


As far as manager, Bruce said Reinsdorf would also spend money for one provided it was a big name who would generate interest with the fan base. Mentioned LaRussa being a free agent and Joe Torre as possible guys for replacing Manuel.

I don't see either of these guys leaving their current teams, but who knows. How many more games would the Sox have won with LaRussa sitting in the dugout this year? Does Dave Duncan come too?

Hiring a proven guy like Tony LaRussa would go a long way in getting difference making free agents to seriously consider coming to play on the South Side (assuming JR will pay for them). Jerry Manuel is a hell of a nice guy, but that's the only good thing I can say about him. This team was in contention up until the last few weeks of the season & that alone makes the White Sox fairly attractive to FAs. Hiring LaRussa to replace Manuel makes them even more so...at the same time, showing that management is serious about winning...to available players & fans. Plus the guy actually has some managing ability.

Win1ForMe
09-21-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boy, I would feel a whole lot better about all of this positive speculation if it came from somebody more reliable than Bruce Levine.

:?:

I don't really follow Levine that much. Can anyone give me some examples as to where he's been wrong in the past?

I was optimistic until I read your reactions about Levine.

ChiSox14305635
09-21-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
I don't really follow Levine that much. Can anyone give me some examples as to where he's been wrong in the past?

I was optimistic until I read your reactions about Levine.



Same here. I always thought Levine was pretty accurate. Though what he said and Phil Rogers article in the Trib a couple of days back do differ.

Win1ForMe
09-22-2003, 12:10 AM
As an aside, I also remember Levine mentioning that the stadium renovation will also use up public money. I was unaware of this and just thought they were using money from the naming rights. How much money is the state contributing?

One thing about my earlier post (which maybe I didn't convey) was that Levine made out to seem like the Sox DIDN'T have that great of a shot in resigning Colon because of the Red Sox/Yankees. Just thought I'd get that in.

But would that mean the White Sox are actually front runners by using the anti-Levine logic?

voodoochile
09-22-2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
As an aside, I also remember Levine mentioning that the stadium renovation will also use up public money. I was unaware of this and just thought they were using money from the naming rights. How much money is the state contributing?

One thing about my earlier post (which maybe I didn't convey) was that Levine made out to seem like the Sox DIDN'T have that great of a shot in resigning Colon because of the Red Sox/Yankees. Just thought I'd get that in.

But would that mean the White Sox are actually front runners by using the anti-Levine logic?

When money got assigned for the rennovation of SF, the Sox got another $17M I believe.

MarqSox
09-22-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
The difference between Tony LaRussa and Jerry Manuel from a managerial standpoint is about the same as comparing the difference between Osama Bin Laden and Mother Theresa. They are that different.
Well, from having talked to a few Cardinals fans recently, they hate "TLR" almost as much as we hate JM. Tony has also developed a penchant for playing goofy lineups and mismanaging his bullpen, from what I hear. You'll get the firey attitude that you won't get with Manuel, but other than that, they sound a lot alike.

WinningUgly!
09-22-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Well, from having talked to a few Cardinals fans recently, they hate "TLR" almost as much as we hate JM. Tony has also developed a penchant for playing goofy lineups and mismanaging his bullpen, from what I hear. You'll get the firey attitude that you won't get with Manuel, but other than that, they sound a lot alike.

At least LaRussa's tinkering came out of necessity...

Isringhausen missed over half of the season, leading to the closer by committee thingy.
Matt Morris missed about a month & a half.
J.D. Drew could only play 2-3 games a week for most of the season.
Jim Edmunds missed quite a bit of time due to his HR Derby injury.
Albert Pujols played all season long with a sprained right elbow ligament.
Fernando Vina was out from the end of May until Sept. 1st.

Plenty of other pitching injuries as well. 24 different pitchers for the Cards this year...9 different starters.

dickallen15
09-22-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
At least LaRussa's tinkering came out of necessity...

Isringhausen missed over half of the season, leading to the closer by committee thingy.
Matt Morris missed about a month & a half.
J.D. Drew could only play 2-3 games a week for most of the season.
Jim Edmunds missed quite a bit of time due to his HR Derby injury.
Albert Pujols played all season long with a sprained right elbow ligament.
Fernando Vina was out from the end of May until Sept. 1st.

Plenty of other pitching injuries as well. 24 different pitchers for the Cards this year...9 different starters.


LaRussa is King of All Tinkerers. He's been tinkering for years.

Jerko
09-22-2003, 10:37 AM
The way the Cards showed up for that 5 game set vs. the Cubs recently make me want TLR to stay where the hell he is.

JRIG
09-22-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
LaRussa is King of All Tinkerers. He's been tinkering for years.

I would imagine many will disagree, but I've always felt LaRussa is one of the most overrated managers in the game. He's a good manager, but nowhere near his reputation.

His infatuation with players who can play multiple positions hinges on mind-boggling. If LaRussa were here next year Aaron Miles, Willie Harris, and a re-signed Josh Paul would probably all make the Opening Day roster.

DrCrawdad
09-22-2003, 11:12 AM
Tony played for the Cubbies, but in the years he's been with the Cards I think he's come to hate the Cubbies and Dusty Baylor. Tony's got that going for him.

Viva Magglio
09-22-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Tony played for the Cubbies, but in the years he's been with the Cards I think he's come to hate the Cubbies and Dusty Baylor. Tony's got that going for him.

And wouldn't a Second Coming of TLR make future Sox-Cubs interleague series interesting.

kempsted
09-22-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I would imagine many will disagree, but I've always felt LaRussa is one of the most overrated managers in the game. He's a good manager, but nowhere near his reputation.

His infatuation with players who can play multiple positions hinges on mind-boggling. If LaRussa were here next year Aaron Miles, Willie Harris, and a re-signed Josh Paul would probably all make the Opening Day roster.
I think the reason so many people rate him highly is he wins on almost every team he manages. He has won a lot - playoff teams and world series appearances. No manager can do it all but you can't argue with his success.

I think people also like him because they read "Men At Work". I guarantee that general Disarray doesn't do nearly the preparation that Tony does.

ChiSoxBobette
09-22-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Watching Sports Page and Bruce Levine was on with some interesting news. He believes the White Sox will spend money in the off-season.

Levine cited the ball park renovations as a reason why Reinsdorf would want to keep the team competitive for the division title. Also said 'Dorf was a "baseball fan" and would like to take a shot at winning the Series for a few more years before he sells the team. There was conversations regarding Colon and if the Sox could sign him. Bruce said possibly but also mentioned they might have to settle on someone else as Boston/New York will both go after him hard with long-term deals.

As far as manager, Bruce said Reinsdorf would also spend money for one provided it was a big name who would generate interest with the fan base. Mentioned LaRussa being a free agent and Joe Torre as possible guys for replacing Manuel.

Ya know I've listened to Levine all year on ESPN radio and the guy has been all over the place. You really can't believe much of what he says.

maurice
09-22-2003, 01:47 PM
If you hate JM for his tinkering and insane bullpen moves, you don't want TLR. He invented the Sunday afternoon lineup.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2003, 02:08 PM
If Tony LaRussa wants to come back to the Sox with his track record and with the way he handled the team in 1983, the Sox should get down on their hands and knees and kiss his ass!

You folks comparing LaRussa to Manuel have been drinking too much Cubbie Kool Aid.

Seriously there is NO comparison between the two.

I guarantee you the Sox wouldn't have rolled over and died the last two weeks with Tony in charge, they still may not have won any more games, but at least they would be busting their asses trying.

Lip

DrCrawdad
09-22-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If Tony LaRussa wants to come back to the Sox with his track record and with the way he handled the team in 1983, the Sox should get down on their hands and knees and kiss his ass!

You folks comparing LaRussa to Manuel have been drinking too much Cubbie Kool Aid.

Seriously there is NO comparison between the two.

I guarantee you the Sox wouldn't have rolled over and died the last two weeks with Tony in charge, they still may not have won any more games, but at least they would be busting their asses trying.

Lip

Tony wasn't particularly loved by many Sox fans back during his tenure with the Sox, IIRC. But Sox fans, we probably don't like many of our managers while they're with the Sox.

I truly hope the Sox get LaRussa back. Tony's smart. Tony demands hard-nosed baseball from his players. Tony's got a fire and passion that I like.

Jerry Manuel is good person. I'd probably enjoy being in the company of Manual. I just don't think Jerry is the right guy for the job any longer.

Jerry, I wish you well in your future endeavors.

A.T. Money
09-22-2003, 04:12 PM
I can't remember where I read the interview with Reinsy, but didn't he say the biggest mistake he ever made was firing TLR?

I'm sure they both got a chance to talk at the 83 reunion too. I'm sure Reinsy whispered something in his ear.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-22-2003, 05:46 PM
Like some of you I was around when Tony was the manager, and I remember Harry C. and Piersall roasting him on a nitely basis as well as other Sox fans. He is an overrated manager, but we are desperate and we want a proven commodity of which TL is.

I am certain that if the Yankees lose JT will either be fired or do a behind the scenes "stepping down" routine and take his money and get the hell away from George.

If I am JR and want to give this club instant credibility I hire Torre. He is good with the players, the media, the fans love him (not that its important that we love him) but I do think it gives us market credibility. I don't want a ra-ra guy just for the sake of having one. I want a manager that the players above and beyond respect, and also has experience in big game situations. The obvious question is will JR pay up?

Despite this team tanking the last 2 weeks, I still believe that they have built some momentum for next season. I think if KW fields a team like he did this year with an experienced manager, they might pick up where they left off 3 weeks ago.

This is a key off-season b/c KW has said all this stuff "winning now" well the organization has to step up and keep some guys and bring in others to show the fans and his players that although they fell short that those who fit in will stay and those that don't will be gone. But you can't keep tearing it down and trying to rebuild it year after year.

I would go so far as to say whomever is named manager if JM is fired will tell us ALOT about which diretion this team is headed. So for all of you pining for Wally Backman, if he gets hired look for "The kids can play.. Part Deux"

NYSF

hold2dibber
09-22-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I am certain that if the Yankees lose JT will either be fired or do a behind the scenes "stepping down" routine and take his money and get the hell away from George.

If I am JR and want to give this club instant credibility I hire Torre. He is good with the players, the media, the fans love him (not that its important that we love him) but I do think it gives us market credibility. I don't want a ra-ra guy just for the sake of having one. I want a manager that the players above and beyond respect, and also has experience in big game situations. The obvious question is will JR pay up?

The other obvious question is, would Torre have any interest in managing this team? I'm sure Torre (like just about every other 3rd party observer) sees this Sox team as underachieving and lacking in chemistry. Add to that the fact that he'd be coming to the no. 2 team in a 2 team town, plus the Sox' limited payroll budget, and I'm thinking all the money in the world wouldn't get Torre to come to the South Side - unless he received a commitment from the organization would be totally committed to winning and would up the payroll to a more competitve level (e.g., $70 million).

dickallen15
09-22-2003, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If Tony LaRussa wants to come back to the Sox with his track record and with the way he handled the team in 1983, the Sox should get down on their hands and knees and kiss his ass!

You folks comparing LaRussa to Manuel have been drinking too much Cubbie Kool Aid.

Seriously there is NO comparison between the two.

I guarantee you the Sox wouldn't have rolled over and died the last two weeks with Tony in charge, they still may not have won any more games, but at least they would be busting their asses trying.

Lip


In the St. Louis Post-Dispatch today, a columist said LaRussa should move on. He wrote the team quit on LaRussa after its dreadful series against the Cubs. Tony says he will be back in St. Louis next year. I'm glad he won't be on the South Side of Chicago.

Daver
09-22-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
In the St. Louis Post-Dispatch today, a columist said LaRussa should move on. He wrote the team quit on LaRussa after its dreadful series against the Cubs. Tony says he will be back in St. Louis next year. I'm glad he won't be on the South Side of Chicago.

If I never see Tony Larussa in a Sox uniform again it will be way to soon.

NewyorkSoxFan
09-22-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The other obvious question is, would Torre have any interest in managing this team? I'm sure Torre (like just about every other 3rd party observer) sees this Sox team as underachieving and lacking in chemistry. Add to that the fact that he'd be coming to the no. 2 team in a 2 team town, plus the Sox' limited payroll budget, and I'm thinking all the money in the world wouldn't get Torre to come to the South Side - unless he received a commitment from the organization would be totally committed to winning and would up the payroll to a more competitve level (e.g., $70 million).

I think you might be surprised that JT might welcome working in an a major market without the pressure of winning the WS every year b/c you spend 130 million dollars. Granted he would want some assurances that the team would continue to field a competitive team and that upper management was committed to winning. But I think the city is an easy sell, and he keeps his endorsements, and national spots. I think it would be a win win for both parties.

NYSF

guillen4life13
09-22-2003, 07:51 PM
Torborg isn't managing everywhere. I was a little young to know how good a manager he was, but of what I've read on these boards, many of you guys think he was the "last good manager the Sox had."

Discuss amongst yourselfs. I've given the topic. :D:

JRIG
09-22-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Torborg isn't managing everywhere. I was a little young to know how good a manager he was, but of what I've read on these boards, many of you guys think he was the "last good manager the Sox had."

Discuss amongst yourselfs. I've given the topic. :D:

Jeff Torborg can be directly tied to the destruction of the arms of Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, Wilson Alvarez, and A.J. Burnett, to name a few.

I'd rather have Bevington back. At least he didn't ruin careers. I mean, besides his own.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-22-2003, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Torborg isn't managing everywhere. I was a little young to know how good a manager he was, but of what I've read on these boards, many of you guys think he was the "last good manager the Sox had."

Discuss amongst yourselfs. I've given the topic. :D:

Torborg got the reputation as a bit of a player's manager, smoothing egos and taking the side of the hired help rather than management. For example, he made co-captains of Carlton Fisk and Ozzie Guillen.

Once GM Larry Himes was pushed out (1990), it was only a matter of time before Torborg was shown the door. He jumped (to the Mets) when it became obvious the Sox front office didn't want him anymore.

I liked Torborg and I believe he deserves a lot of credit for pulling the team from last-place to second-place in 1989-90. However the last Sox manager to really get the most of his ballplayers was probably Bob Lemon back in 1977. Naturally Bill Veeck couldn't wait to get rid of him. He was fired the very next year.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2003, 12:05 AM
From my interview with Donn Pall. I think Jeff Torborg would do very nicely...

ML: I had heard this and donít know if itís true. Maybe you could shed some light on it. I had heard that some members of the Sox upper organization felt that Jeff ruined Bobby Thigpen, that he used him too much and that was one of the reasons the Sox "encouraged" Jeff to take the Mets job, that if he didnít, he was going to get fired. Is that true?

DP: "I never heard that. I donít see how anybody could have felt that way. If anything Jeff took special care of all of his pitchers. We were in Seattle one time and Jeff told us before the game that no matter what happened, Bobby, Barry, and I, all the right handers, were not going into the game, that we could just shut it down. All of us had pitched two or three games in a row and Jeff said thatís enough. Those last three games, when we finished the season in Boston, and they were fighting for the division, Jeff told Bobby he wasnít going to be used. Bobby had already set the record and Jeff felt that was enough. And Bobby didnít pitch in those three games."

"Bobbyís trouble and I know the coaches told him about this many times, was that even if he was loose and ready, heíd keep throwing in the bullpen. If it was the last of the 8th and Bobby knew heíd be going in the next inning, heíd loosen up, but if the Sox had a long inning or scored three or four runs, Bobby would keep throwing! He wouldnít stop... I guess he was bullheaded that way. Bobby threw three times longer then he needed to and thatís what wore him out."

Lip

gosox41
09-23-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
I can't remember where I read the interview with Reinsy, but didn't he say the biggest mistake he ever made was firing TLR?

I'm sure they both got a chance to talk at the 83 reunion too. I'm sure Reinsy whispered something in his ear.

All we need to then do is see if Hoyt and Dotson can still throw strikes and we'r all set. :)

Bob

Lip Man 1
09-23-2003, 12:14 AM
Two points:

Yes Jerry Reinsdorf publicly admitted the two worst baseball mistakes he ever made was firing Tony LaRussa and allowing Jerry Koosman to be traded in January 1984.

Second, Jeff Torborg can not be held responsible for "destroying" the arm of Jason Bere because he NEVER managed him. Bere didn't come up until June 1993.

Lip

JRIG
09-23-2003, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


Second, Jeff Torborg can not be held responsible for "destroying" the arm of Jason Bere because he NEVER managed him. Bere didn't come up until June 1993.

Lip

He also had very little to do with Wilson Alvarez. That's my fault on the years.

I'll stand by my original point, however, which is that Torborg is not a pitcher's best friend.

FJA
09-23-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Jeff Torborg can be directly tied to the destruction of the arms of Alex Fernandez, Jason Bere, Wilson Alvarez, and A.J. Burnett, to name a few.

I'd rather have Bevington back. At least he didn't ruin careers. I mean, besides his own.

Whoa there ... I know the Bevington comment was a hypothetical, but let's give Jeff Torborg a bit more credit than "worse than Boom-Boom." And for the sake of all Sox fans, please be careful what you wish for when it comes to one Terry Bevington. :D:

I think Torborg would be a good choice--not the best--but better than JM. Torre would not only be a great choice, but IMO, a great fit. (He and Reinsdorf are both from Brooklyn, which is interesting even if it probably bears no significance on Torre being hired.) He's not a hothead, which is what players seem to like about JM, but unlike JM, he demands respect because of his record. He's also going to bring A LOT more exposure to the team, and while we might still be the "2nd" team as someone suggested, it ain't going to be by nearly as much if Torre comes to town.

I really like La Russa, and always have, but he does tinker quite a bit as some have said. Again, I think he's a good choice because his record demands respect.

If we're going to keep a lot of the same players around--and I hope we do--I think it's important to not do a 180 and bring in Wally Backman, who I like, but who should be the first manager of the post-Thomas, Alomar, Lee and Ordonez days. I'd much rather see Backman lead a bunch of talented young players than screw up with a bunch of veterans, maybe burning his bridges with the organization in the process. I really hope we don't rush Backman here, because I think he could do something really special with a different Sox team.

As for Levine, the guy is an idiot. He said something on Mac, Jurko and Harry about a month and a half ago (I think when only Jurko and Moronotti were on) to the effect of Maggs not deserving 2004's pay raise because the "power numbers" weren't there. Of course, this was right after Maggs' tear through July and even the Moron sounded like he wanted to lash out at his colleague. He's usually pretty good about breaking trades shortly before others, but when he just talks about baseball and speculates, you would think he never watched either team.

soxtalker
09-23-2003, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by FJA
I think Torborg would be a good choice--not the best--but better than JM. Torre would not only be a great choice, but IMO, a great fit. (He and Reinsdorf are both from Brooklyn, which is interesting even if it probably bears no significance on Torre being hired.) He's not a hothead, which is what players seem to like about JM, but unlike JM, he demands respect because of his record. He's also going to bring A LOT more exposure to the team, and while we might still be the "2nd" team as someone suggested, it ain't going to be by nearly as much if Torre comes to town.


Fitting in well with JR is important, but what about the fit with KW? Would Torre command so much respect that he could upstage KW in a disagreement?