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View Full Version : Can we abandon the 4 man rotation?


jeremyb1
09-21-2003, 04:14 PM
I can't believe anyone really believes we have a shot at this point so why not ditch the 4 man rotation? We're going to carry poor momentum into next season if someone like Garland (who looked to substantially improve his ERA from last year until his last two starts where its jumped up over .3) gets hammered several times to end the season. Plus, we're missing out on the opportunity to give someone who could be a factor next season such as Wright or Rauch a start.

TDog
09-21-2003, 04:19 PM
Sure. Abandonment is pretty much what I'm feeling from my baseball team now anyway.

JRIG
09-21-2003, 04:40 PM
Thing is, if I'm not mistaken, this is really the first weekend we've gone on the 4-man rotation. So after all the talk, by the time Manuel implements the 4-man rotation, it's too late anyway.

spanishwhite
09-21-2003, 05:11 PM
I say abandon the whole team.

Rowand has produced more offense than a majority of
the team combined over the last couple of days.

But I do agree with Jeremy, might as well give some innings
to someone else because for the past week EVERY starter we
have has tanked it and Loaiza (as poorly as he has pitched) is the only one who has a quality start in that span.

Man, what the hell happened to what was supposed to be a
strength on our team. I thought the Twins and the dome were the reason but the Royals are doing the same thing in our backyard.

What a Cub/red soxlike collapse!

duke of dorwood
09-21-2003, 05:15 PM
He just went 4 man for this series-maybe this is why it wasnt done before. So much was made about it, again it gave these guys an excuse. Good thing these pampered athletes did not pitch in another era.

RichH55
09-21-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
He just went 4 man for this series-maybe this is why it wasnt done before. So much was made about it, again it gave these guys an excuse. Good thing these pampered athletes did not pitch in another era.

Agreed, how else would we blow out arms? Pitch 'em every day!

THough seriously is anyone confident about Loiza for next year?

Win1ForMe
09-21-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Agreed, how else would we blow out arms? Pitch 'em every day!

THough seriously is anyone confident about Loiza for next year?

Loaiza is not a fluke. I made a whole post about this in yesterday's (9/20) game thread. Look at his strike outs this year compared to previous years. Even in the last four starts when he's given up some runs he's had more Ks than IP. He'll be fine.

He may be getting tired which is causing him to lose some of his good control and leave pitches out over the plate.

At worst, I think Loaiza is analogous to a pitcher like Woody Williams of the Cardinals. He struggled early in his career and then figured it out.

I'm not worried about anything other than having to resign him after next season.

RichH55
09-21-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
Loaiza is not a fluke. I made a whole post about this in yesterday's (9/20) game thread. Look at his strike outs this year compared to previous years. Even in the last four starts when he's given up some runs he's had more Ks than IP. He'll be fine.

He may be getting tired which is causing him to lose some of his good control and leave pitches out over the plate.

At worst, I think Loaiza is analogous to a pitcher like Woody Williams of the Cardinals. He struggled early in his career and then figured it out.

I'm not worried about anything other than having to resign him after next season.

I think Woody Williams could be a good analogy........but you have to admit there is a big ? with a guy like Loaiza when the lightbulb suddenly goes on, but then starts to dim near the end of the year...especially when it is all mental with him as he has always had the arm

Win1ForMe
09-21-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I can't believe anyone really believes we have a shot at this point so why not ditch the 4 man rotation? We're going to carry poor momentum into next season if someone like Garland (who looked to substantially improve his ERA from last year until his last two starts where its jumped up over .3) gets hammered several times to end the season. Plus, we're missing out on the opportunity to give someone who could be a factor next season such as Wright or Rauch a start.

I agree with this...They can keep Colon, Buehrle, and Loaiza on three days rest for they Yankees series but then bring up someone (Rauch) to start the first game of the Royals series and pitch Garland and everyone else on four days rest. There's really no point anymore...

Win1ForMe
09-21-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I think Woody Williams could be a good analogy........but you have to admit there is a big ? with a guy like Loaiza when the lightbulb suddenly goes on, but then starts to dim near the end of the year...especially when it is all mental with him as he has always had the arm

I think it's a valid concern but just take a look at his last few starts. Against Cleveland he threw two hangers which were hit for home runs and accounted for the scoring. It doesn't take much to hit a hanging breaking ball.

Against the, Twins he gave Stewart the cutter over the plate (again, a lack of control and not hitting the propper spot) which he hit for that double to give them the big lead. I'm not sure how much we can take from his start in Minnesota other than he didn't have any control. Even when he was getting his brains beat-in in previous years, walking people was not a problem.

In the game last night, he pretty much beat himself by walking Mayne and Beltran and giving the Royals an opportunity to have a big inning. He tried too hard to make the perfect pitch. Some would say the start last night against KC wasn't a great outing but it pretty much is identical to the last two outings he's had against them (and those were without Sweeny and Rondell White who accounted for 3 of the 7H).

His problems in the past were to leave too many pitches in the strike zone and not keep the hitters off balance by mixing it up. This year he's got the cutter to lefties but he's also done better in working the corners and hitting his spots on the corners. He's probably fatigued (he's never gone over 200 IP and he's at 213 now) which is causing him to lose some of that good control.

Also, (not counting the sick game) he's really had trouble in one inning of each game. He's given up 10 R in the 3rd inning but only 3R in the other 18IP. He may not have a 2.50 ERA next year but I think it's reasonable to not expect anything over 3.50 and somewhere around 15+ wins.

RichH55
09-21-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
I think it's a valid concern but just take a look at his last few starts. Against Cleveland he threw two hangers which were hit for home runs and accounted for the scoring. It doesn't take much to hit a hanging breaking ball.

Against the, Twins he gave Stewart the cutter over the plate (again, a lack of control and not hitting the propper spot) which he hit for that double to give them the big lead. I'm not sure how much we can take from his start in Minnesota other than he didn't have any control. Even when he was getting his brains beat-in in previous years, walking people was not a problem.

In the game last night, he pretty much beat himself by walking Mayne and Beltran and giving the Royals an opportunity to have a big inning. He tried too hard to make the perfect pitch. Some would say the start last night against KC wasn't a great outing but it pretty much is identical to the last two outings he's had against them (and those were without Sweeny and Rondell White who accounted for 3 of the 7H).

His problems in the past were to leave too many pitches in the strike zone and not keep the hitters off balance by mixing it up. This year he's got the cutter to lefties but he's also done better in working the corners and hitting his spots on the corners. He's probably fatigued (he's never gone over 200 IP and he's at 213 now) which is causing him to lose some of that good control.

Also, (not counting the sick game) he's really had trouble in one inning of each game. He's given up 10 R in the 3rd inning but only 3R in the other 18IP. He may not have a 2.50 ERA next year but I think it's reasonable to not expect anything over 3.50 and somewhere around 15+ wins.

His problems were always the mental part of the game. Leaving hanging pitches is mental(lack of focus)....I think it's fair to say the jury remains out on him

Win1ForMe
09-21-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
His problems were always the mental part of the game. Leaving hanging pitches is mental(lack of focus)....I think it's fair to say the jury remains out on him

Hanging pitches is usually due to poor mechanics (i.e. there's a problem with the delivery). This is why Loaiza was trying to correct something with Coop after those starts. To give you an example, David Wells in his start against the Sox, hung a ton of pitches because he couldn't finish of his delivery due to problems with his back. I remember with Jody Gerut (who hit the homer), Loaiza was trying a backdoor breaking ball. The mental part was the plan to throw the backdoor curve but the physical part was leaving the hanger.

Not trying to pick a fight or anything. That's just IMO.

Win1ForMe
09-22-2003, 12:31 AM
Garland losing his spot in the rotation for the final games... per the Tribune. Pretty interesting, I guess. Manuel would like to bring someone up to get a start so that's why Garland is being sat down. Why don't they just rest Buehrle, Bart, or ELo who've thrown many more innings?

At least there won't be any bad blood to carry over for next year with Manuel being fired and all. Still, it's not the way I want Garland to end the season with two straight poor outings and essentially a benching. Hope it doesn't affect his confidence.

pudge
09-22-2003, 02:44 AM
Very interesting about Garland - man he must hate JM.

Also, why not let someone like Rauch taste the Yanks to get his feet wet? Give Cotts another chance to get his confidence back.