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OurBitchinMinny
09-19-2003, 02:53 PM
Why do so many people think he might be gone? He is the teams best player. He may look average in the OF, but he has the #1 overall fielding % for RF in the AL. If he is gone, I dont know. I'll always be a sox fan, but if they dont bring him back, they have some morons in the front office.


Also the team should not even let manuel finish off the year. He should have been kept off the flight from the TC's last night and they should let nossek or someone finish off the year

voodoochile
09-19-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Why do so many people think he might be gone? He is the teams best player. He may look average in the OF, but he has the #1 overall fielding % for RF in the AL. If he is gone, I dont know. I'll always be a sox fan, but if they dont bring him back, they have some morons in the front office.


Also the team should not even let manuel finish off the year. He should have been kept off the flight from the TC's last night and they should let nossek or someone finish off the year

The money will factor into the equation heavily, IMO. He would bring good value in return and open up spaces to keep either Everett or bring up Reed. Heck, they might be able to trade for another RF who can put up solid numbers even if they aren't Maggs like.

OurBitchinMinny
09-19-2003, 02:59 PM
I suppose. Would you rather keep him or deal him? If they do deal him they better get some great value in return...A good young SS who can hit over .230 and a starter pitcher at least. Id rather keep him

voodoochile
09-19-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
I suppose. Would you rather keep him or deal him? If they do deal him they better get some great value in return...A good young SS who can hit over .230 and a starter pitcher at least. Id rather keep him

I am torn. I like Maggs numbers, but wonder about his intensity. I thought he was part of the attitude problem this year, to be honest with you. Early in the year he showed no hustle and did a fair amount of showboating, IMO.

Much of that changed as the season progressed, but I want him to be motivated. People jump on Frank for not being a team leader, but when has Maggs ever been one? His numbers are great, but for that much money, he needs to do more than put up numbers, he needs to set an example, day in and day out.

If they can get a trio of regular players for him and not suffer a major drop off in RF production, I don't mind trading him.

Starting SS and starting pitcher, I would have to consider it, IMO.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Why do so many people think he might be gone? He is the teams best player. He may look average in the OF, but he has the #1 overall fielding % for RF in the AL. If he is gone, I dont know. I'll always be a sox fan, but if they dont bring him back, they have some morons in the front office.


Also the team should not even let manuel finish off the year. He should have been kept off the flight from the TC's last night and they should let nossek or someone finish off the year

Agree with everything, but Maggs makes 14 million next season and that is pretty-much the upper-limit of what the Sox can afford to pay a player of Maggs' Caliber. Frankly, I'd rather have Brian Giles, but that isn't happening, now is it?

Maggs OBP and OPS the past 3 years:
.382 & .915
.381 & .978
.387 & .943

A player like Maggs will not be as valuable as many other 14 million dollar players because
1) Average fielder at a relatively unimportant position
2) OBP and OPS are not really SUPER-Star quality
3) Doesn't have people with any real speed to get on base in fron of him!

I'm not saying he isn't a VERY good player, but I don't think he's an elite player in this league.

If the Sox manage to resign Alomar or get another leadoff hitter, this is what I'd like to see:

1) Alomar/Reed/leadoff guy
2) Clee
3) Maggs
4) Thomas

or

1) Alomar
2) Reed
3) Clee
4) Maggs
5) Thomas

OurBitchinMinny
09-19-2003, 03:17 PM
Id like to see them keep everett. The guy plays hard no matter that he pisses some people off. He doesnt seem like a cancer to me. He even played better CF than I thought. If maggs is gone, they could put him in RF...Doesnt reed play CF? Will he be ready next year?

ChiSox21
09-19-2003, 03:23 PM
Mags is soo underated we need to keep him,

BeerHandle
09-19-2003, 03:26 PM
I hope they keep Mags. He is a very good fielder. Not as great of an arm has Harold Baines, but puts up great numbers. I like your lineup change # 1.

) Alomar
2) Clee
3) Maggs
4) Thomas

I think Everett will be gone because he is a liability in the field. He does not have the range for Center. If they do get rid of Mags I bet Everett stays and moves to Right field where he belongs.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox21
Mags is soo underated we need to keep him,

Maggs is rarely going to be in the top 25 or 30 in MLB in OBP annually.

Right now, his average of the past 3 years' OPS would be about #15 or so in MLB this season.

Yet, he's being paid 14 million next year to play RF?

I think he's underrated, but I also think, in 2004, he'll be overpaid.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 03:35 PM
OK, here is what I'd do. It's no secret the Yankees have always liked Maggs.

Nick Johnson and a couple prospect (preferably advanced pitching/IF) for Maggs.

If it would be possible, maybe try to get them to take Konerko's salary?

I don't know if it would work and might require a third team, but I really like Nick Johnson and his OBP skills would be a huge addition to a team sorely lacking in that area.

Soxboyrob
09-19-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

1) Alomar
2) Reed
3) Clee
4) Maggs
5) Thomas

Might even think about flip flopping Lee and Maggs in this scenario.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
Might even think about flip flopping Lee and Maggs in this scenario.

Agree. If Reed comes in and starts hitting right away, I'd have to give a serious look to him being a #1 or #2 hitter. As it stands now, I wouldn't mind seeing him get some time in the #7 or #8 hole off the bat if he is the opening day CF'er, just to get his feet wet and not as much pressure (although he'll probably see better pitches in front of Maggs/Thomas/Lee)

hold2dibber
09-19-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
OK, here is what I'd do. It's no secret the Yankees have always liked Maggs.

Nick Johnson and a couple prospect (preferably advanced pitching/IF) for Maggs.

If it would be possible, maybe try to get them to take Konerko's salary?

I don't know if it would work and might require a third team, but I really like Nick Johnson and his OBP skills would be a huge addition to a team sorely lacking in that area.

Can Johnson play OF? I like him a lot, but if (as I suspect) he is 1B/DH only, then I'd only make this deal if the Yankees would also take Konerko. Of course, they'd have to give a lot more than only Johnson - but I'm not sure who they might have that would be a good fit for the Sox.

In any event, a fully expect the Sox and Maggs to re-negotiate an extension this off season. That $14 million deal was struck right after the A-Rod and Manny Ramirez deals went down - obviously, the market has changed substantially. I would think Maggs would agree to defer a decent portion of that $14 million in return for another 3 years tacked on to his contract at a more reasonable (and in line with current market conditions) rate.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Can Johnson play OF? I like him a lot, but if (as I suspect) he is 1B/DH only, then I'd only make this deal if the Yankees would also take Konerko. Of course, they'd have to give a lot more than only Johnson - but I'm not sure who they might have that would be a good fit for the Sox.

In any event, a fully expect the Sox and Maggs to re-negotiate an extension this off season. That $14 million deal was struck right after the A-Rod and Manny Ramirez deals went down - obviously, the market has changed substantially. I would think Maggs would agree to defer a decent portion of that $14 million in return for another 3 years tacked on to his contract at a more reasonable (and in line with current market conditions) rate.

Johnson is strictly 1B/DH. He's at least as good as Konerko defensively (better range) and he takes a ton of walks and will hit 25-30 HR's in a season. To me, that isn't much of a downgrade from Maggs. It would be such a huge trade in terms of salary and flexibility to do other things...

Of course you'd have to find a taker for Konerko, but with Maggs' 14 million gone, you'd be able to eat some of Konerko's contract in the hopes you'd get some better prospects.

Sign Alomar+Valentin for the next 2 years at 5-6 million combined. Reed is your opening day CF'er and your only real hole is at RF. Maybe you can convince Carl to stay for less, maybe not. I think he's proven to be our #1 or #2 clutch hitter and seems to get the big knocks...

Lineup:
1) Alomar 2B
2) Clee LF
3) Thomas 1B/DH
4) Nic Johnson 1B/DH
5) Carl RF
6) Crede 3B
7) Jose SS
8) Reed CF (maybe moves to #1 or #2 depending on how quickly he adjusts)
9) Olivo and Burke/Sandy? C

This is a huge reduction in salary and I'd argue it has little to no dropoff from this year's team and is a better team at getting on base. It's also not as right-handed as in the past. You'd have to consider finding a way to get Johnson up in front of some of the better hitters too, as he is easily a .400+ OBP guy.

hold2dibber
09-19-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Johnson is strictly 1B/DH. He's at least as good as Konerko defensively (better range) and he takes a ton of walks and will hit 25-30 HR's in a season. To me, that isn't much of a downgrade from Maggs. It would be such a huge trade in terms of salary and flexibility to do other things...

Of course you'd have to find a taker for Konerko, but with Maggs' 14 million gone, you'd be able to eat some of Konerko's contract in the hopes you'd get some better prospects.

Sign Alomar+Valentin for the next 2 years at 5-6 million combined. Reed is your opening day CF'er and your only real hole is at RF. Maybe you can convince Carl to stay for less, maybe not. I think he's proven to be our #1 or #2 clutch hitter and seems to get the big knocks...

Lineup:
1) Alomar 2B
2) Clee LF
3) Thomas 1B/DH
4) Nic Johnson 1B/DH
5) Carl RF
6) Crede 3B
7) Jose SS
8) Reed CF (maybe moves to #1 or #2 depending on how quickly he adjusts)
9) Olivo and Burke/Sandy? C

This is a huge reduction in salary and I'd argue it has little to no dropoff from this year's team and is a better team at getting on base. It's also not as right-handed as in the past. You'd have to consider finding a way to get Johnson up in front of some of the better hitters too, as he is easily a .400+ OBP guy.

I wouldn't mind that at all, particularly if it allowed the Sox to retain the current starting staff. I also think that the Yankees would take PK and Maggs for Johnson without requiring the Sox to eat any of Konerko's salary. The two biggest obstacles I see are: (1) bad PR; Sox fans (for good reason) love Maggs, and a lot still love PK - I think a lot of people would be pissed; (2) Johnson's a poor health risk - he gets hurt an awfully lot.

mike squires
09-19-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
Why do so many people think he might be gone? He is the teams best player. He may look average in the OF, but he has the #1 overall fielding % for RF in the AL. If he is gone, I dont know. I'll always be a sox fan, but if they dont bring him back, they have some morons in the front office.


Also the team should not even let manuel finish off the year. He should have been kept off the flight from the TC's last night and they should let nossek or someone finish off the year

One reason...Harold Baines. I swear I'll never forget watching the game of the week and probably taking a break from my back yard imaginary baseball game and seeing the trade that brought Sammy Sosa to town. I couldn't believe it.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I wouldn't mind that at all, particularly if it allowed the Sox to retain the current starting staff. I also think that the Yankees would take PK and Maggs for Johnson without requiring the Sox to eat any of Konerko's salary. The two biggest obstacles I see are: (1) bad PR; Sox fans (for good reason) love Maggs, and a lot still love PK - I think a lot of people would be pissed; (2) Johnson's a poor health risk - he gets hurt an awfully lot.

1) I agree with that point 100%. Without dealing Konerko or Maggs, they won't be able to resign Colon, IMO, and may not even try without doing so.

2) That's exactly why you split time between he and Frank and the other DH's. Johnson doesn't have a long history of injuries, but has tweaked himself here and there over the past year or two. I don't recall him facing many injuries as a prospect, but I could be wrong.



Simply releiving yourself of that 22+ million dollar burden is the primary focus. Perhaps you even make a run at Maggs if he hits FA a year later, who knows at that point.


I love Maggs, but he makes more than he's worth, and this team needs more guys to consistently get on base. I'm exhausted from waiting for the 2-run HR and getting 3 hits in an inning and only scoring once. Working counts, taking walks.... It all forces the opposing pitchers to make more pitches and increases the liklihood of them making a mistake! Pure and simple. You have guys up there just hackin' and slashin', it doesn't do you a whole lot of good.

Paulwny
09-19-2003, 04:53 PM
Isn't Vlad a fa this year? NY may go after him.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Isn't Vlad a fa this year? NY may go after him.

True. They'll probably have to pay him more than Maggs, though.

Paulwny
09-19-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
True. They'll probably have to pay him more than Maggs, though.

Agree, but they don't give up Johnson and don't get Konerko's salary to go along with Maggs' salary.

maurice
09-19-2003, 05:09 PM
As you can see from my posts in other threads, I'm not opposed to dealing Maggs. I agree that Maggs and Paulie for Johnson and prospects would be a good baseball move. It also would allow the Sox to subtract two right-handed bats, while adding a lefty (Johnson) and keeping a switch hitter (Everett). However, I can't see how they could spin this trade from a PR standpoint, especially if Maggs and Paulie start off well and Johnson gets an early DL stint. I'd expect a fan reaction similar to Himes' (very good) Baines trade.

Ideally, the Sox could move Maggs for a young SS, and spin it as upgrading an important, long-time hole.

RichH55
09-19-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Isn't Vlad a fa this year? NY may go after him.


I highly doubt Vlad would sign with any NY team....Not a guy who likes the limelight at all

Huisj
09-19-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by mike squires
One reason...Harold Baines. I swear I'll never forget watching the game of the week and probably taking a break from my back yard imaginary baseball game and seeing the trade that brought Sammy Sosa to town. I couldn't believe it.

Imaginary baseball games in the backyard. wow does that bring back memories. finally someone else who admits they did it too.

After that trade, it was always the sox against texas, just so I could bat as harold still. for a while, I was pissed so much at the sox that after that trade I always had the sox lose on a baines home run.

actually when that trade happened, I had just turned 6, and my family was camping, and I happened to be wearing my sox hat. when my dad told me about it, i threw my hat on the ground and stomped on it in the dirt.

i might do the same thing if they trade ordonez. not to say that he's without flaws (DPs!), but trading him will tear this team apart more than trading anyone else I think.

gosox41
09-19-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I wouldn't mind that at all, particularly if it allowed the Sox to retain the current starting staff. I also think that the Yankees would take PK and Maggs for Johnson without requiring the Sox to eat any of Konerko's salary. The two biggest obstacles I see are: (1) bad PR; Sox fans (for good reason) love Maggs, and a lot still love PK - I think a lot of people would be pissed; (2) Johnson's a poor health risk - he gets hurt an awfully lot.

I don't think the Yankees would be that stupid to take PK, especially if they get Magglio. If they did, they certainly wouldn't give up a lot.

Bob

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 11:43 PM
I still have high hopes for next season, but I'm dreading what the Sox roster will look like if KW and JR aren't careful. If Frank leaves after this season, and Maggs decides to leave folowing the 2004 season, the Sox will be in trouble, especially if they aren't able to work out trades for other players.

The lineup would look like this:

LF- Reed
2B- Alomar
DH- Lee
1B- Konerko
RF- Borchard
3B- Crede
SS- Valentin
C- Olivo
CF- Harris

:jerry

"It's too bad I won't be around after this year. I could do a lot of tinkering with that bunch."