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Lip Man 1
09-19-2003, 12:51 PM
A stunning series of comments are listed in the Daily Southtown Friday under the by line of Joe Cowley.

It comes from Sox players (who don't have their name listed naturally) who are angered that Wally Backman may even be considered for the upcoming vacant managerial position.

One player is quoted as saying "they'll be a f****** revolt..."

I find that laughable.

This team which was castigated by the owner in August 2002 the day before a potential labor strike (remember the threat of a "boot camp" spring training?) and who "sleepwalked" through long stretches of this season has the gall to get upset because the Sox might actually get a manager who isn't afraid to skake up their little "conutry club."

Granted manager Gandhi would screw up a two car funeral and is 90% responsible for the chotic state of the Sox but the players themselves have to take some responsibility.

Yet these same buffoons are apparently upset of this possibility.

Amazing.

Lip

Hullett_Fan
09-19-2003, 12:59 PM
All the more reason to hire him. :D: What do these guys know about Backman anyway??

Also, any chance either Lou Pinella or Art Howe can get out of their contracts and come here?? :?:

voodoochile
09-19-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
All the more reason to hire him. :D: What do these guys know about Backman anyway??

Also, any chance either Lou Pinella or Art Howe can get out of their contracts and come here?? :?:

They might consider it, but will JR pay them? Not a chance in hell...

Hullett_Fan
09-19-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They might consider it, but will JR pay them? Not a chance in hell...


Oops...forgot about that part of the equation. :D:

Pinella's gotta have an out-clause in his contract and even JR can see that the reason we didn't win this year was the manager...so maybe he doesn't re-sign Colon and uses the $$ to sign Pinella :?:

voodoochile
09-19-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
Oops...forgot about that part of the equation. :D:

Pinella's gotta have an out-clause in his contract and even JR can see that the reason we didn't win this year was the manager...so maybe he doesn't re-sign Colon and uses the $$ to sign Pinella :?:

No, there will be another new face who has never managed in the bigs or for whatever reason has been cast aside long enough to allow them to pay him cheap.

Remember, Reinsy is the guy who ran Phil Jackson out of town rather than pay him a nice fat salary and Phil won 6 championships while he was here... SIX! Phil even came on board as an unknown as did Collins before him.

The man just will NOT hire veteran leadership. The money is too damned important to him...

:selljerry
AND TAKE THE DAMNED PROFIT ALREADY!

Hullett_Fan
09-19-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
[B]No, there will be another new face who has never managed in the bigs or for whatever reason has been cast aside long enough to allow them to pay him cheap...

Guess I'll just sit back and countdown the days until we JR announces Buddy Bell as our new manager. Ughhhhh. :(:

A.T. Money
09-19-2003, 01:13 PM
I still like Bobby Valentine. Light a fire under some asses.

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
I still like Bobby Valentine. Light a fire under some asses.

If Valentine is the new manager, I will start counting the days until he and Frank have their first confrontation. Bobby V's ego is even bigger than Reinsdorf's. I don't want him here.

jabrch
09-19-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
One player is quoted as saying "they'll be a f****** revolt..."


the players themselves have to take some responsibility.

Lip


I agree with You Lip...on both points...
1) It is amazing that anyone would threaten a revolt. Who do you think it would be? And should we care? Really, is there anyone who is untouchable here if they would leave because the don't like the manager?

and

2) The players need to take some resonsibility

Geez, if I were a player, I'd threaten a revolt if Manuel wasn't fired IMMEDIATELY. Backman could only make that team better. His contribution could be no less than that of Manuel.

SoxxoS
09-19-2003, 01:19 PM
The players don't want Wally Backman b/c they will probably make them work their tails off.

Jerry would take them for ice cream after the game, Wally would have extra bunting practice for 2 hours.

I don't know which player would say "There would be a ****ing revolt" so we can only speculate.

I think it's Buerhle. He seems like the only one to open his big mouth.

jabrch
09-19-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
If Valentine is the new manager, I will start counting the days until he and Frank have their first confrontation. Bobby V's ego is even bigger than Reinsdorf's. I don't want him here.


What manager won't Frank have a conflict with? Someone who rolls over for him maybe - but I don't ever remember Frank being very manager friendly.

voodoochile
09-19-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
What manager won't Frank have a conflict with? Someone who rolls over for him maybe - but I don't ever remember Frank being very manager friendly.

Yeah, but look at his last two managers...

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, but look at his last two managers...

Agreed. If I were Frank, I probably wouldn't like working with either Manuel or Bevington, either. Those guys are both morons. The best manager Frank has had in his career was Jeff Torborg. That was twelve years ago.

bc2k
09-19-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
All the more reason to hire him.

Damn right Hullet.

What kind of stunts could these prissy players do if they "revolt"? Seriously, what could they do?

And if I'm KW or JR, I'm sending most of these bums to winter ball. Joe Crede refused winter ball in the past so he's at the top of the list. Olivo has got to go but I don't want him catching any games there. Rowand will have to go since JM single handidly F upped his swing once he finally had a hitting epiphany. Borchard and Harris have to go if they want a shot at making the team.

I look at Winter ball like kids that had to take Summer school because they weren't good enough the previous year. A combination of punishment and way to improve your bad grades/batting.

jabrch
09-19-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yeah, but look at his last two managers...


While that is true...it is still an alarming trend. You manager may be an idiot (and in the case of the Sox, they tend to be...) but you need to be able to deal better with it. If Thomas has a problem with Backman or Valentine - guys he never played with, for or against, I think that is kinda crappy of him. Unless he becomes a clubhouse leader himself, he needs to let whomever is going to manage this team have a chance to put his own fiery stamp on it.

Jerko
09-19-2003, 01:40 PM
I'd like to know, if this is all true, just who in the hell do these players think they are to revolt, or to have a say so in who the manager is? They are SO USED to being able to do whatever they want because of JM, so even though they have not won squat in years they are going to dictate who the manager should be? I am liking this team less and less each passing hour. God forbid somebody makes them WORK!?!?!? Makes them LEARN how to do things they suck at, or MAKES them not do things they suck at (wanna bat righty some more, Valentin?) JM has been a doormat for so long now these players tell him WHAT MOVES TO MAKE DURING GAMES NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This whole organization is ass-backwards.

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
While that is true...it is still an alarming trend. You manager may be an idiot (and in the case of the Sox, they tend to be...) but you need to be able to deal better with it. If Thomas has a problem with Backman or Valentine - guys he never played with, for or against, I think that is kinda crappy of him. Unless he becomes a clubhouse leader himself, he needs to let whomever is going to manage this team have a chance to put his own fiery stamp on it.

My comment that Valentine and Frank would have confrontation was referring to the fact that Valentin blasted Frank on Baseball Tonight back in June, when the Sox were struggling, even though Frank was not reason why. Bobby's argument seemed as personal, as though Frank had done something to him in the past.

Frank is not Mr. Innocent by any stetch of the imagination. His mood changes as often as the weather, but at least his head can fit through the clubhouse door every day. That isn't the case with Valentin.

fuzzy_patters
09-19-2003, 01:47 PM
The Sox should bring back Jeff Torborg and bring Ozzie in as third base coach.

jabrch
09-19-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
My comment that Valentine and Frank would have confrontation was referring to the fact that Valentin blasted Frank on Baseball Tonight back in June, when the Sox were struggling, even though Frank was not reason why. Bobby's argument seemed as personal, as though Frank had done something to him in the past.

Frank is not Mr. Innocent by any stetch of the imagination. His mood changes as often as the weather, but at least his head can fit through the clubhouse door every day. That isn't the case with Valentin.

OK...I think Bobby V. on BBTN was just there to stir up the natives. He should be able to come in here and make nice to Frank if the situation calls for it. I'd be interested in seeing, next year, after a new manager watches Frank take IF practice in spring training, if he decides that Frank is good enough to play the IF or if he concurrs with Manuel that Frank is too much a liability defensively.

Frankly, any of the managers I have heard listed, with the exception of a Buddy Bell type guy, are fine with me. I'd like either a fiery young guy (Randolph/Backman) or a seasoned veteran Valentin, Lou, Torre) but I'd even tolerate someonein the middle... Just not Manuel again...please...

Viva Magglio
09-19-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
The Sox should bring back Jeff Torborg and bring Ozzie in as third base coach.

That would be interesting. But do you know why the Marlins canned him? Just ask A.J. Burnett and the other Fighting Fish hurlers that spent time on the 60-day DL.

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
That would be interesting. But do you know why the Marlins canned him? Just ask A.J. Burnett and the other Fighting Fish hurlers that spent time on the 60-day DL.

Jeff Torborg equals ------------> :nardi

BeerHandle
09-19-2003, 02:19 PM
I want Manuel gone, but can he really be blamed for the following:

Frank Thomas: .258 (not very clutch: as Frank goes so does the team)
Jose Valentine: .230 (improved golve)
Paul Kornerko: .246 (didn't hit when it mattered early)
Brian Duabach: A JOKE (enough said)
Joe Crede: Didn't hit when it mattered early (i.e. Royce Clayton his last year here - great glove, bad bat early and then exploded)
Miquel Olivo - .227 (sounds like Ron Karkovice)
Billy Koch - From Rolaids Reliever of the year to Porta-Potty Cleaner

No doubt, Manuel didn't make some of the best moves through out the year, but the players still have to play to their level. The team never panicked which is a sign of Manuel's Gandhi attitude, but what they needed during the last seven games was a fire under their ass. We were so flat! The only one that showed signs of life were R. Alomar and Everett.

I would like Wally, but remember this: every manager always gets criticized!

mike squires
09-19-2003, 02:21 PM
This may be an ignorant question but I'm curious. Is that the same Joe Cowley that used to pitch in the bigs and for the Sox? I'm guessing probably not. Just wondering.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
A stunning series of comments are listed in the Daily Southtown Friday under the by line of Joe Cowley.

It comes from Sox players (who don't have their name listed naturally) who are angered that Wally Backman may even be considered for the upcoming vacant managerial position.

One player is quoted as saying "they'll be a f****** revolt..."

I find that laughable.

This team which was castigated by the owner in August 2002 the day before a potential labor strike (remember the threat of a "boot camp" spring training?) and who "sleepwalked" through long stretches of this season has the gall to get upset because the Sox might actually get a manager who isn't afraid to skake up their little "conutry club."

Granted manager Gandhi would screw up a two car funeral and is 90% responsible for the chotic state of the Sox but the players themselves have to take some responsibility.

Yet these same buffoons are apparently upset of this possibility.

Amazing.

Lip



Hmmmm, guess I have no clue what I'm talking about.

thepaulbowski
09-19-2003, 02:24 PM
I'm casting my vote for Willie Randolph.

jeremyb1
09-19-2003, 02:33 PM
Yeah. My first reaction is how do they know much about Backman and my second is, all the more reason to hire him. I don't want a lazy veteran team.

Bisco Stu
09-19-2003, 02:36 PM
Those interested in a "revolt" aren't very interested in winning baseball.

On paper, Backman's the ideal MLB manager, a scrappy, hustling player who had to rely on savvy and wits to compete with superior athletes.

Wally Backman should be hired on Sept. 29th, so he can begin preparing for the 2004 season.

MarkEdward
09-19-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Yeah. My first reaction is how do they know much about Backman and my second is, all the more reason to hire him. I don't want a lazy veteran team.

I think this team is really close to Manuel, and the players don't want to see him get fired.

BeerHandle
09-19-2003, 02:43 PM
These guys are professionals and need start acting like it. I'm sure Manuel didn't want his buddies fired either: Nardi and Gary Ward. He moved on and accepted it!

Dick Allen
09-19-2003, 02:46 PM
If these players want to revolt, I say let them sit their ugly a$$e$ on the bench, or let them go play for the Schaumburg Flyers. I didn't realize they won all these World Series so that they should be telling us who should be managing them.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Dick Allen
If these players want to revolt, I say let them sit their ugly a$$e$ on the bench, or let them go play for the Schaumburg Flyers. I didn't realize they won all these World Series so that they should be telling us who should be managing them.

Let's see.... replace 25 players or one manager???? Hmmmmmm.

Dick Allen
09-19-2003, 03:00 PM
Yeah, replace the 25 players who have underachieved and haven't won diddly. That's really the type of INDIVIDUALS you want running the asylum.

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
What manager won't Frank have a conflict with? Someone who rolls over for him maybe - but I don't ever remember Frank being very manager friendly.

Nothing like a chance to take a shot at Frank, eh?

thepaulbowski
09-19-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
These guys are professionals and need start acting like it. I'm sure Manuel didn't want his buddies fired either: Nardi and Gary Ward. He moved on and accepted it!

Sounds like Manuel is more professional than the guys playing on the team. How can this team sleep at knowing they have cost 4 people their jobs? Two hitting coaches, one pitching coach and soon to be one manager.

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Sounds like Manuel is more professional than the guys playing on the team. How can this team sleep at knowing they have cost 4 people their jobs? Two hitting coaches, one pitching coach and soon to be one manager.

You're forgetting the fact that Gary Ward had never been a hitting instructor at the Major League level, and probably won't be for sometime, and that Nardi Contreras is a horrible pitching coach. He had already been fired several times before the Sox got him.

thepaulbowski
09-19-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I think this team is really close to Manuel, and the players don't want to see him get fired.

Maybe they could fire me as a fan, that would make my life easier.

thepaulbowski
09-19-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
You're forgetting the fact that Gary Ward had never been a hitting instructor at the Major League level, and probably won't be for sometime, and that Nardi Contreras is a horrible pitching coach. He had already been fired several times before the Sox got him.

That may be true, but if the players had done there job, they wouldn't have been fired. I mean how much difference can these coaches make. Either you want to listen and work on it or you don't, the coach doesn't matter in many cases.

Granted there are times when they do make a difference, too. But it's really hard to tell.

jabrch
09-19-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Nothing like a chance to take a shot at Frank, eh?

Frank has had problems with our last two managers. You feel like disagreeing with me on that? Sure...our last two managers also both sucked, but Frank isn't manager friendly when he doesn't agree with them.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Frank has had problems with our last two managers. You feel like disagreeing with me on that? Sure...our last two managers also both sucked, but Frank isn't manager friendly when he doesn't agree with them.


****NEWS FLASH*****

This just in... The AP is reporting White Sox 1B/DH Frank Thomas is the first player in Major League Baseball history to disagree with a manger.... check that... 2 managers.

jabrch
09-19-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
****NEWS FLASH*****

This just in... The AP is reporting White Sox 1B/DH Frank Thomas is the first player in Major League Baseball history to disagree with a manger.... check that... 2 managers.

Your best hitter - your veteran - your team leader - this guy should not be causing problems with managers. Not in public...deal with them behind closed doors.

Jerko
09-19-2003, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BeerHandle
[B]I want Manuel gone, but can he really be blamed for the following:

Frank Thomas: .258 (not very clutch: as Frank goes so does the team)
Jose Valentine: .230 (improved golve)
Paul Kornerko: .246 (didn't hit when it mattered early)
Brian Duabach: A JOKE (enough said)
Joe Crede: Didn't hit when it mattered early (i.e. Royce Clayton his last year here - great glove, bad bat early and then exploded)
Miquel Olivo - .227 (sounds like Ron Karkovice)
Billy Koch - From Rolaids Reliever of the year to Porta-Potty Cleaner

I'll try my best:

Thomas .258 might have been better if he were allowed to stay at first when he was hitting .386 as a first baseman. Who fills out the lineup card? Manuel.

Valentin .230 might have been better if his manager MADE him stop switch hitting, or let him NEVER face a righty. What is he righty, .140? Again, to some extent, JM could have made a little bit of a difference.

Daubach I can't blame anybody on. PK was an all star coming into the year and I never expected much from Daubach as a left handed specialist.

Crede: can't really blame JM for that one

Olivo: No, it is NOT JM's fault Olivo can not hit, but the last game I was at he had Olivo batting behind a right handed Valentin for 2 automatic outs every time they were up. THAT IS JM's fault.

I am not saying it's his fault all the above players were below average this season, but he knowingly uses these guys where even a casual Sox fan can see they will fail.

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Your best hitter - your veteran - your team leader - this guy should not be causing problems with managers. Not in public...deal with them behind closed doors.

Manuel deserves at least part of the blame for the media getting involved. He was the one who allowed the Thomas-Konerko spat to play out in front of the media. He was the also the person who accused Frank of "quitting the team" back in '99, though it was later revealed that Frank should not have been baseball for much of that season.

MRKARNO
09-19-2003, 04:22 PM
I think the players not wanting Backman is more of a reason that we should hire him. MAKE THOSE BLEEPING MILLIONAIRES WORK!!!. Game ending high popup with RISPs and the ball in a good position to be made contact with, scream and yell at the player, no "that's unfortunate____" garbage

JasonC23
09-19-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Your best hitter - your veteran - your team leader - this guy should not be causing problems with managers. Not in public...deal with them behind closed doors.

What a great point you keep making...anyone who disagrees and causes problems with the immortal Terry Bevington and Jerry Manuel MUST be the problem with this team.

What is the obsession sports fans have with blaming the best (or one of the best) players on the team for everything that goes wrong? According to some Bears fans, last year (and I'm sure this year) is all Brian Urlacher's fault, because he doesn't make a tackle in the backfield on every single play. Never mind that he is surrounded by crap. Frank has the second-highest OPS on the team, but because he doesn't get along with completely idiotic, stupid managers, it's all his fault they don't win? :?:

How about blaming Konerko, or Koch, or anyone else who sucked this year and actually was a big part of the real reason they didn't win?

jabrch
09-19-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
What a great point you keep making...anyone who disagrees and causes problems with the immortal Terry Bevington and Jerry Manuel MUST be the problem with this team.

What is the obsession sports fans have with blaming the best (or one of the best) players on the team for everything that goes wrong? According to some Bears fans, last year (and I'm sure this year) is all Brian Urlacher's fault, because he doesn't make a tackle in the backfield on every single play. Never mind that he is surrounded by crap. Frank has the second-highest OPS on the team, but because he doesn't get along with completely idiotic, stupid managers, it's all his fault they don't win? :?:

How about blaming Konerko, or Koch, or anyone else who sucked this year and actually was a big part of the real reason they didn't win?

No...that's not the point I am making...The point I am making is that none of these players has a right to revolt against Wally Backman if he is hired. Not a single one of them...

I never said it was "all Frank's fault"...so why would you say something so ridiculous?

Blaming Koch and Konerko? Geez, that's a brilliant idea... I would have never thought about that...

Read the freaking thread...Frank is a great hitter...there is no doubt about that. Does that excuse other behavior issues? Does that excuse .176 in Sept.? If he is one of the people threatening to revolt aginst Backman, does it excuse that?

Jumping Anacondas....its like Cubs fans and Sosa sometimes. Why is it that I can't say something truthfully negative about Frank without an eruption?

hold2dibber
09-19-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
I want Manuel gone, but can he really be blamed for the following:

Frank Thomas: .258 (not very clutch: as Frank goes so does the team)
Jose Valentine: .230 (improved golve)
Paul Kornerko: .246 (didn't hit when it mattered early)
Brian Duabach: A JOKE (enough said)
Joe Crede: Didn't hit when it mattered early (i.e. Royce Clayton his last year here - great glove, bad bat early and then exploded)
Miquel Olivo - .227 (sounds like Ron Karkovice)
Billy Koch - From Rolaids Reliever of the year to Porta-Potty Cleaner

No doubt, Manuel didn't make some of the best moves through out the year, but the players still have to play to their level. The team never panicked which is a sign of Manuel's Gandhi attitude, but what they needed during the last seven games was a fire under their ass. We were so flat! The only one that showed signs of life were R. Alomar and Everett.

I would like Wally, but remember this: every manager always gets criticized!

Here is why Manuel is to blame:

(1) This is the big one: he does not give this team any sense of urgency, ever, under any circumstances. In the first half, he's more interested in keeping everyone happy than with winning games. There are no repurcussions when guys play poorly or fail to execute fundamentals. He plays the Junior Varsity lineup if they win the first two games of a series. He talks about being a "championship team" when the friggin' team is 8 games under .500! This all adds up to a team that thinks they can just turn it on at some point and everything will be fine. Then they eventually start playing to their talent level, but when it's time to put up or shut up, they fold like a house of cards because they're not used to the intensity it takes to win in crucial games. They don't play with any sense of urgency, which means a lack of hustle, a lack of determination and a lack of desire. I realize that those qualities are, to a certain extent, ingrained in individuals, but the manager sets the tone and can have a great affect on those types of "intangibles" - and Manuel is absolutely, positively ATTROCIOUS in this department.

(2) He jerks his players around because he can never make up his mind. Frank is going to play 1B for the foreseeable future. Oh, never mind. Clayton is going to be benched. Oh, never mind. There is a 99.9% chance Buehrle is the starter. Oh, never mind. The man is a buffoon.

(3) His bullpen management is an abomination. He never, ever used Glover, despite the fact that Glover was good. He barely ever used Wunsch, despite the fact that he was good. He leaves guys in too long regularly, he pisses guys off by not giving them set roles (and I agree with those who say that current relievers get too hung up on that - but if, as a manager, you don't like rigidly defined roles, you have to talk to your relievers and sell them on that plan).

(4) He falls in love with crappy players and plays the death out of them. See: Clayton, Royce. Also, that bozo outfielder who couldn't hit at all in 2001. Also, Jose Valentin against lefties - he should be on the bench EVERY time a lefty comes into the game.

I could go on and on, but those are the big ones, with no. 1 being by far the biggest.

So yes, I do blame Manuel for the team's failure this year. The players surely deserve a lot of blame, too. But I am firmly convinced that a manager like Lou Piniella, Jack McKeon or Davey Johnson would have won 95 games with this team.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
What a great point you keep making...anyone who disagrees and causes problems with the immortal Terry Bevington and Jerry Manuel MUST be the problem with this team.

What is the obsession sports fans have with blaming the best (or one of the best) players on the team for everything that goes wrong? According to some Bears fans, last year (and I'm sure this year) is all Brian Urlacher's fault, because he doesn't make a tackle in the backfield on every single play. Never mind that he is surrounded by crap. Frank has the second-highest OPS on the team, but because he doesn't get along with completely idiotic, stupid managers, it's all his fault they don't win? :?:

How about blaming Konerko, or Koch, or anyone else who sucked this year and actually was a big part of the real reason they didn't win?



Well said.

Mammoo
09-19-2003, 04:37 PM
Those comments speak volumes about this sad bunch of under achievers. That's good enough reason for me to support his promotion.

I just became a Wally Backman fan!!!!!!!! :smile:

jabrch
09-19-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I think the players not wanting Backman is more of a reason that we should hire him. MAKE THOSE BLEEPING MILLIONAIRES WORK!!!. Game ending high popup with RISPs and the ball in a good position to be made contact with, scream and yell at the player, no "that's unfortunate____" garbage

Absolutely! And any of them - and I mean any of them - that don't like it can find themselves somewhere else to play. They can take their collective championship rings (I believe R. Alomar is the only one on the team to have one) and go elsewhere. It seems that there is no unanimous single player who we couldn't survive without - and in fact replace and compete without - given our salary structure.

Bring on Wally Backman. The more these guys whine, the more I am becoming a Backman fan.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Those comments speak volumes about this sad bunch of under achievers. That's good enough reason for me to support his promotion.

I just became a Wally Backman fan!!!!!!!! :smile:


I'm a Wally Backman fan, don't get me wrong. However, with a veteran team, it'll make Larry Bowa looked beloved by his players.

Backman needs to be with young players. He's a tough guy to play for, but he makes you play aggressive and balls-out all the time, and will get in your face if you don't. It would be ugly, beyond belief.

jabrch
09-19-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I'm a Wally Backman fan, don't get me wrong. However, with a veteran team, it'll make Larry Bowa looked beloved by his players.

Backman needs to be with young players. He's a tough guy to play for, but he makes you play aggressive and balls-out all the time, and will get in your face if you don't. It would be ugly, beyond belief.

Um...why exactly is that a bad thing? We saw what happens when players are allowed to sleepwalk all the time... Nobody sacrifices, nobody hits behind runners, nobody works at the little things except Robby and Crazy Carl... Your arguement makes even more a case for Backman in my eyes.

To quote my favorite movie, Major League, "We are coddling these guys"

Randar68
09-19-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Um...why exactly is that a bad thing? We saw what happens when players are allowed to sleepwalk all the time... Nobody sacrifices, nobody hits behind runners, nobody works at the little things except Robby and Crazy Carl... Your arguement makes even more a case for Backman in my eyes.

To quote my favorite movie, Major League, "We are coddling these guys"


No, because it's the way he does it. If you don't really know what Wally Backman is about, you should just remove your hands from your keyboard. Unless the veteran presense on this team is totally dissolved, Backman is the worst possible guy to bring in in this situation.


Sorry, but this is 2003, not 1972. You have to coddle these guys now. They simply won't play for a guy like Backman. How'd Buddy Bell do again? And that was with relatively young guys.

You don't want to find out if you're right or not, because I'll guarantee you you're not. Bringing him in will make this season look like a fairy tale.

Shoeless Joe
09-19-2003, 05:06 PM
If the Sox don't get Torre next year then it's really pointless to hire anybody else who will cost the Sox major money. If Wally is the guy they want to get then fine let it be. When you get down to it there aren't many Jerry Manuel's in the world so I think we would be fine with any change at Manager.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Shoeless Joe
If the Sox don't get Torre next year then it's really pointless to hire anybody else who will cost the Sox major money. If Wally is the guy they want to get then fine let it be. When you get down to it there aren't many Jerry Manuel's in the world so I think we would be fine with any change at Manager.


If it's gonna be someone from within, with the current team makeup, I'd rather have Walker or Leyva be the guys. This team would be an H-bomb waiting to explode (in a bad way) if Backman becomes the manager.

MRKARNO
09-19-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Absolutely! And any of them - and I mean any of them - that don't like it can find themselves somewhere else to play. They can take their collective championship rings (I believe R. Alomar is the only one on the team to have one) and go elsewhere.

Robbie has 2 and schoenwiess has 1

Foulke You
09-19-2003, 06:12 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned but anyone know what former early '90s Blue Jays manager Cito Gaston is up to these days? He has two World Series rings and coached Robbie Alomar back then. Assuming Robbie stayed, that would be a nice fit. Also, as I recall, the Blue Jays had a very disciplined club back then. He is also African American and JR has been known to favor hiring minority management. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that but if that is the route they are going, they might be inclined to replace a minority manager with another minority manager like Cito Gaston. Just a thought...

soxtalker
09-19-2003, 06:59 PM
This could make for a very interesting off season. If the players are really opposed to Backman and he is named manager, then those with options to leave (FA's and Frank) might exercise them. I'm not saying that's good or bad.

gosox41
09-19-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
A stunning series of comments are listed in the Daily Southtown Friday under the by line of Joe Cowley.

It comes from Sox players (who don't have their name listed naturally) who are angered that Wally Backman may even be considered for the upcoming vacant managerial position.

One player is quoted as saying "they'll be a f****** revolt..."

I find that laughable.

This team which was castigated by the owner in August 2002 the day before a potential labor strike (remember the threat of a "boot camp" spring training?) and who "sleepwalked" through long stretches of this season has the gall to get upset because the Sox might actually get a manager who isn't afraid to skake up their little "conutry club."

Granted manager Gandhi would screw up a two car funeral and is 90% responsible for the chotic state of the Sox but the players themselves have to take some responsibility.

Yet these same buffoons are apparently upset of this possibility.

Amazing.

Lip

Whoever said this hsould be shipped out of town immediately. He's probably onle of the lazy players taht took advantage of JM and his "letting the clubuhouse run itself" attitude.

Is this guy afraid of a little intensity? Does he like the idea of continuously losing so he can have free reign to do whatever knowing JM won't do a thing about it..

Whoever said this needs to check his ego at the door.

Who would revolt on the Sox? Maybe PK. Frank?? Garland?? Buehrle?? They all have good reasons to detest Manuel. Alomar and Everett haven't been here long enough to develop an attachment. Koch? I doubt he enjoys being demoted no matter how well it's deserved. Colon? He could probably care less.

I don't see much room for a revolt. But if it fires up the team I'm all for it. I also don't see many players publicle defending JM and his moves.

Bob

gosox41
09-19-2003, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
They might consider it, but will JR pay them? Not a chance in hell...

Hiring Art Howe would be a big mistake.

Bob

gosox41
09-19-2003, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
I want Manuel gone, but can he really be blamed for the following:

Frank Thomas: .258 (not very clutch: as Frank goes so does the team)
Jose Valentine: .230 (improved golve)
Paul Kornerko: .246 (didn't hit when it mattered early)
Brian Duabach: A JOKE (enough said)
Joe Crede: Didn't hit when it mattered early (i.e. Royce Clayton his last year here - great glove, bad bat early and then exploded)
Miquel Olivo - .227 (sounds like Ron Karkovice)
Billy Koch - From Rolaids Reliever of the year to Porta-Potty Cleaner

No doubt, Manuel didn't make some of the best moves through out the year, but the players still have to play to their level. The team never panicked which is a sign of Manuel's Gandhi attitude, but what they needed during the last seven games was a fire under their ass. We were so flat! The only one that showed signs of life were R. Alomar and Everett.

I would like Wally, but remember this: every manager always gets criticized!

Wally at least manages with some intensity, unlike the "Corpseball" we've seen here.

Manuel is partly to blame for the bad BA's because of his constant tinkering the first half. Is it coincidence the averages went up went Manuel went with a more set line up?

Bob

valposoxfan
09-20-2003, 12:42 AM
I know this may sound weird, but what about Fisk??? Would he settle his differences with JR and come to the South Side to manage?? Don't see him clashing with players... It could be an interesting idea...

TornLabrum
09-20-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by valposoxfan
I know this may sound weird, but what about Fisk??? Would he settle his differences with JR and come to the South Side to manage?? Don't see him clashing with players... It could be an interesting idea...

Snowball's chance in hell....

jabrch
09-20-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Robbie has 2 and schoenwiess has 1

I totally forgot Schoenweiss...thx

jabrch
09-20-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
No, because it's the way he does it. If you don't really know what Wally Backman is about, you should just remove your hands from your keyboard. Unless the veteran presense on this team is totally dissolved, Backman is the worst possible guy to bring in in this situation.


Sorry, but this is 2003, not 1972. You have to coddle these guys now. They simply won't play for a guy like Backman. How'd Buddy Bell do again? And that was with relatively young guys.

You don't want to find out if you're right or not, because I'll guarantee you you're not. Bringing him in will make this season look like a fairy tale.

Things are working out in Philly under Larry Bowa who is supposed to be the same type of guys.

I know what Backman is all about - I know his type. Thanks for asking... The "veteran presence" on this team has been the problem. Unemotional, uninspired, and impassionate is how I would describe our veterans for the most part. Since we can't get rid of all of them, I say we shock them. It has happened before and worked.

I'll be content with almost any of the options we have as long as they don't let the veteran players get away with the crap that Manuel permitted.

MarkEdward
09-20-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Things are working out in Philly under Larry Bowa who is supposed to be the same type of guys.


According to most Phillies' fans, Larry Bowa is not working out. In fact, he's the reason the Phillies aren't playing better. He handles his bullpen awfully, and he drove one of the best third baseman out of Philadelphia (Scott Rolen). Larry Bowa would be one of the last men I'd want to run my team.

jabrch
09-20-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
According to most Phillies' fans, Larry Bowa is not working out. In fact, he's the reason the Phillies aren't playing better. He handles his bullpen awfully, and he drove one of the best third baseman out of Philadelphia (Scott Rolen). Larry Bowa would be one of the last men I'd want to run my team.

But there has not been a major players revolt and the team in right there competing for a wild card...

MarkEdward
09-20-2003, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
But there has not been a major players revolt and the team in right there competing for a wild card...

Well, there hasn't been a *major* revolt, but Tyler Houston and Scott Rolen were extremely critical of Bowa.

Has there been a revolt under Manuel?

Mammoo
09-20-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Randar68

Backman needs to be with young players...

That's just the point, I don't think many of these veterans will be around next year.

Now, a guy like Maggs who most cetarinly will stay will become the leader by example. Backman will get Maggs in his corner and the rest will follow along!! :smile:

Mammoo
09-20-2003, 11:11 AM
This is from when the Mets were looking after Valentine got fired:

"The scrappy second baseman for the '86 World Series Mets, Backman led the Double-A Birmingham Barons to the Southern League title this season. "Wally's the best manager in the minor leagues right now," an American League scout told the Birmingham News over the summer. But if the Mets call, Backman might not call back: He is upset that the club never returned his call when he was looking for a minor-league job."

Mammoo
09-20-2003, 11:19 AM
***Long hours for the love of the game***

***A minor league odyssey***

Wally Backman is irate. But irate really doesn't describe it.

Backman is pissed.

After a Carolina League game between the Class A Potomac Cannons and the Winston-Salem Warthogs, I walk into the Warthogs' locker room to talk to former major league second baseman Wally Backman, now the manager of the Warthogs, an affiliate of the Chicago White Sox.

Cussing words, loud, angry ones, are the first thing I hear. Backman is mad about something. At first I think he's hollering at his players, who dropped a game to the Cannons 10-3. I quietly exit the clubhouse and head back to the field.

Next thing I see is Backman is running up the stands for the press box, trying to open doors, searching for the official scorekeeper, pointing at him, wanting to talk. Two assistant coaches and the White Sox's director of minor league operations try to keep Backman from a regrettable incident.

No such incident occurs.

Later, Backman tells me he was ticked that the official scorekeeper gave the catcher on error when Warthogs center fielder Chad Durham laid down a bunt.

"That was no error," Backman says with a colorful four-letter adjective added for emphasis. "The kid has 15 bunt singles this season. That should've been his 16th."

Truth be told, I would've given the batter a bunt single in my scorebook. I didn't think a good throw from the catcher would've gotten him. I understand Backman's anger.

When Backman cools down, sipping a cold Budweiser and smoking Marlboro reds to the filter, he explains his anger.

"You can either be a hard scorekeeper or an easy scorekeeper. You can't be both," Backman says, a glimpse of his fiery days in the big leagues still present. "You can't be hard on the visiting team and soft on the home team.

"We have to judge every player in this league and the end of the season, and we only get to see each team a certain number of times. We need to look at batting averages and earned run averages. Is the kid batting .265 or is it .275? Sometimes those 10 points might be the difference between Single-A and Double-A. My kid deserved a hit."

Backman is just one of many people who makes a living with jobs in the minors.

Umpires, general managers, managers, scouts. There are more occupations (public relations director, bus driver, advertising exec, radio play-by-play person); those are just the people I interviewed.

This is Backman's first year at Winston-Salem. He previously coached in the Independent League. The White Sox offered him a chance to instruct young ballplayers.

"It feels good to teach," says Backman, who played in the Carolina League for Lynchburg in 1978. "I want to help the kids to the next level. I also like the strategy. I like being part of the game."

Can you imagine Jerry Manuel doing something like that (with the scorekeeper)?

This guy is passionate and that's what this team needs. I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to read as much as possible about this guy because he may be with us before long! :smile:

soxtalker
09-20-2003, 12:30 PM
On the radio today (I think it was Rooney and Levine), I heard a parallel being drawn between the current situation with Manuel and that of the early to mid 90's. We needed a firey manager was the call. The team turned to Terry Bevington, which we all know was a disaster. Can someone comment on the contrast between Wally Backman and Terry Bevington?

Mammoo
09-20-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Can someone comment on the contrast between Wally Backman and Terry Bevington?

Yes...TB was retarded...WB isn't!!! :D:

Seriously, I couldn't say, that's why I want to read up on this guy and see what he's all about.

If he's all flash and no substance, then you're right; what have we gained??? :?:

soxtalker
09-20-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Yes...TB was retarded...WB isn't!!! :D:

Seriously, I couldn't say, that's why I want to read up on this guy and see what he's all about.

If he's all flash and no substance, then you're right; what have we gained??? :?:

I had been thinking that Backman would be a good choice, as the reports on what he was able to do in AA sound good. However, after hearing that comment on the radio, it made me stop. I can't honestly remember what I thought of or heard about Terry Bevington before he was made the manager.

jabrch
09-20-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Well, there hasn't been a *major* revolt, but Tyler Houston and Scott Rolen were extremely critical of Bowa.

Has there been a revolt under Manuel?


Rolen didn't like him...yeah, and that certainly cost the Phils. However, if any of our Tyler Houstons were to yap about the Backman selection, I'd show them the door.

The only people I'd listen to are Frank, Mags, Carlos, Buehrle and Colon (after he signs a deal to stay 3 years)... and from those guys, I'd want to understand what their issues are. If it is just that he is harsh, demands hard work, and is not a players guy lke Manuel - screw them....they had a chance to perform under Manuel and didn't for the entire first half.

I'd say Bring in Backman...

Mammoo
09-21-2003, 04:48 PM
http://www.barons.com/thebarons/roster/2003/players/backman/backman.jpg
"I hear you're looking for a manager up here..."

NC_sox_fan
09-21-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
***Long hours for the love of the game***

***A minor league odyssey***


This is Backman's first year at Winston-Salem. He previously coached in the Independent League. The White Sox offered him a chance to instruct young ballplayers.

"It feels good to teach," says Backman, who played in the Carolina League for Lynchburg in 1978. "I want to help the kids to the next level. I also like the strategy. I like being part of the game."

Can you imagine Jerry Manuel doing something like that (with the scorekeeper)?

This guy is passionate and that's what this team needs. I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to read as much as possible about this guy because he may be with us before long! :smile:


The only thing Wally Backman knew how to teach the Warthogs two years ago was how to cure a hang-over. He's no teacher.

The guys loved him though. They all said he was the best. Ask any of the guys who've played for him. It's amazing. I don't know why the guys in Chicago said they would revolt if Wally was their manager. I find that to be very interesting.

The odds seem high that Wally WILL be a big league manager next year according to what I've heard. He's already had plenty of offers to be a base coach, but he only wants to manage.

Can't wait to see how this turns out!

Hangar18
09-22-2003, 08:10 AM
I never cheer for an NL team, therefore, I'll be cheering the
Boston Red Sox

JC456
09-22-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
I still like Bobby Valentine. Light a fire under some asses.

I lived in Arlington, Texas when Valentine was the manager of the Rangers. He owned several restaurants in the area and I actually got to have a drink with him at one. He is a nice individual, but like JM, he isn't a winner. The fans down there were screaming for him to leave when he finally left town. All you are doing is replacing a loser with another one from another city. Yes he took the Mets to the WS, but he blew that the next year and was back to his old ways.

Pale Hose Pat
09-24-2003, 08:23 PM
Wally Backman has to be the guy for a lot of reasons.

He and Dykstra were the ass kickers on those Mets teams, and set the tone for the whole team at the top of the lineup.

WE NEED AN ASS KICKER, AND SOMEONE TO SET THE TONE, FOLKS!

However, the biggest reason is the fact that he was born on September 22, 1959. Yes, the very same day that the Sox last clinched a World Series berth.

If that is not karma, I don't know what is.

Daver
09-24-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by Pale Hose Pat
Wally Backman has to be the guy for a lot of reasons.

He and Dykstra were the ass kickers on those Mets teams, and set the tone for the whole team at the top of the lineup.

WE NEED AN ASS KICKER, AND SOMEONE TO SET THE TONE, FOLKS!

However, the biggest reason is the fact that he was born on September 22, 1959. Yes, the very same day that the Sox last clinched a World Series berth.

If that is not karma, I don't know what is.

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

Nick@Nite
09-24-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Pale Hose Pat
Wally Backman has to be the guy for a lot of reasons.

He and Dykstra were the ass kickers on those Mets teams, and set the tone for the whole team at the top of the lineup.

WE NEED AN ASS KICKER, AND SOMEONE TO SET THE TONE, FOLKS!

However, the biggest reason is the fact that he was born on September 22, 1959. Yes, the very same day that the Sox last clinched a World Series berth.

If that is not karma, I don't know what is.

Whenever Lenny Dykstra's name is mentioned, an image of his puss covered with streams of saliva & chaw comes to mind.

Dadawg_77
09-24-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Pale Hose Pat
Wally Backman has to be the guy for a lot of reasons.

He and Dykstra were the ass kickers on those Mets teams, and set the tone for the whole team at the top of the lineup.

WE NEED AN ASS KICKER, AND SOMEONE TO SET THE TONE, FOLKS!

However, the biggest reason is the fact that he was born on September 22, 1959. Yes, the very same day that the Sox last clinched a World Series berth.

If that is not karma, I don't know what is.

Get Backman as the manager, maybe Lenny could be the thrid base coach and another teammate as the GM, and the Sox will be golden.