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View Full Version : Reason Why We Lost This Division (other Than The Past 3 Games)


Mots09
09-19-2003, 02:51 AM
Does anyone remember that trip we made to Cleveland, TB, and Det and only ended up winning 1 game! Looking back at that trip, it sure would have come in handy to have few more wins


GO SOX GO

Banix12
09-19-2003, 03:54 AM
That's a good reason. If you can't beat detroit you honestly don't deserve to win.

Reason number two should be the first half bullpen. Rick White, Billy Koch, an unreliable Tom Gordon (though he did have an unbeleivable turnaround). Gary Glover's problem was that manuel didn't use him so i don't blame him. Manuel's handling of the bullpen should fall under this too.

and reason number three should be our overreliance on the longball and our inablity to manufacture runs without it

mrwag
09-19-2003, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Banix12
and reason number three should be our overreliance on the longball and our inablity to manufacture runs without it
I think that's the key, plus our lack of speed. Power hitters are usually streaky. When they don't hit, you have to find other ways of scoring runs. This team doesn't know any other way. They can't run, they can't bunt, they can't take the extra base. How do you consistently win that way?

hold2dibber
09-19-2003, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by mrwag
I think that's the key, plus our lack of speed. Power hitters are usually streaky. When they don't hit, you have to find other ways of scoring runs. This team doesn't know any other way. They can't run, they can't bunt, they can't take the extra base. How do you consistently win that way?

I don't buy it. If Konerko and Crede had hit in the first half, and if Koch had put up numbers like his numbers last year, the Sox would be at least 5 games better than they are right now, despite their reliance on the long ball.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to have a manager who isn't a nimrod, moron, doofus, idiot, crap-for-brains, tool, stroke, imbecile, mental midget, brainless, clueless, worthless, fool.

Hullett_Fan
09-19-2003, 08:16 AM
3 REASONS WHY WE DON'T HAVE 10 MORE WINS THAN WE HAVE NOW...



:walnuts :bkoch: :jerry

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2003, 08:42 AM
Reasons we have 10 fewer wins and lost the division.

1.) Anemic offense, largely caused by Jerry Manuel refusing to go with a set lineup until well past the halfway point of the season.

2.) Manuel's misuse of the bullpen, leaving pitchers in too long and failing to anticipate lefty/righty combinations.

3.) Paul Konerko's league-worst hitting failures, aggravated further by Manuel's stubborn insistence on playing Paul Konerko long after it became clear his hot streaks were the anomaly, not his slumps.

4.) Failing to pinch hit in game situations, especially in the first-half. The Sox all but forfeited games letting Sandy and Miguel bat for themselves in the ninth inning.

5.) Continued decline of Jose Valentin.

6.) Lack of situational hitting and ridiculous proclivity for grounding into double-plays, especially Konerko and Ordonez.

7.) Sub-optimal performance from Frank Thomas, the team's best overall hitter. A smart manager wouldn't have aggravated this situation but Manuel did, refusing to stick Frank at 1B.

8.) Painfully slow development of younger ballplayers, especially Jon Garland and Joe Crede.

9.) Dan Wright's struggles (injury?) and the resulting lack of a fifth starter.

10.) Sox Fans. We're not to blame, but somehow you know the chairman will put this on us just the same.

:(:

On a positive note, Esteban Loaiza's career year has been good for at least five EXTRA wins we had no business expecting from him. The Sox should start with the premise that those 5 extra wins won't be there next year.

Hullett_Fan
09-19-2003, 09:09 AM
Just to piggy-back on PHG's post...

11) Lack of any talent in minor league system. Would've been nice to bring up a middle infielder/CF that gets on base. Or how about a reliever/closer when Koch and White stunk it up.

What happened to that "#1 system in MLB"???

Gumshoe
09-19-2003, 11:28 AM
Foulke trade and Jerry Manuel or the only reasons ... which lead to one NAME

To blame


Kenny Williams.



Gumshoe

Hullett_Fan
09-19-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Foulke trade and Jerry Manuel or the only reasons ... which lead to one NAME

To blame


Kenny Williams.



Gumshoe

No offense...but you're out of your mind.

Kenny Williams did his best to put a team on the field capable of winning this division. He's the Sox MVP for 2003 (well, co-MVP w/Loaiza).

1) He did not hire Manuel...and if it was his decision, Manuel would've been gone the day Kenny was named GM

2) I wasn't pleased w/ the Foulke trade at the start...but didn't expect it to blow up like this...no one could've predicted it.

Again -- Manuel, Konerko and Koch are the 3 to be pointing your finger at. I hope they're all gone at end of season.

JJAustin69
09-19-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Mots09
Does anyone remember that trip we made to Cleveland, TB, and Det and only ended up winning 1 game! Looking back at that trip, it sure would have come in handy to have few more wins


GO SOX GO Yes, I said at the time that when we come up short in September, look no further than being swept by Detroit, the worst team in history.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by JJAustin69
Yes, I said at the time that when we come up short in September, look no further than being swept by Detroit, the worst team in history.

LOL! What about early this month when Manuel actually set his rotation to beat Detroit, forgoing an opportunity to sweep the Yankees in NYC!

:jerry
"Frankly it's a bigger deal for him [Buehrle pitching in NY] than it is for us."

I wonder if Manuel is intelligent enough now to regret ever having said that? Probably not...

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 01:14 PM
Kenny Williams is not to blame for this mess. Sure, the Koch trade was a complete disaster, but KW has done his best to put a winning team on the field. It's not his fault that the person in charge of running the team on a day-to-day basis probably probably can't even spell tinkering, let alone refrain from doing it.

Is Williams guilty of keeping Jerry Manuel around? Probably, but I don't think he has final say on who the manager is. If he did, Manuel would have been gone after last season. Any other general manager would have pulled the plug on that idiot after he admitted that he "likes to tinker, even though it usually doesn't work."

voodoochile
09-19-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I wonder if Manuel is intelligent enough now to regret ever having said that? Probably not...

Actually, I think that is a big part of the problem. Manuel is too damned smart for his own good.

Baseball is a pretty simple game and the way it is played hasn't changed much in the past century+. Yeah, there is a bigger concentration on the HR and the pitchers are using a slide step when they work from the stretch, but that is pretty much it.

Jerry like to tinker in a game that actually resists tinkering...

RKMeibalane
09-19-2003, 01:27 PM
Top Ten Reasons Why the Sox Won't Win This Division:

10. Jerry Manuel's decision to start Neal Cotts at Yankee Stadium, effectively destroying all the momentum the team had built up in the first two games of the series.

9. Jerry Manuel's insistence on juggling the starting rotation, taking players out of their normal rhythm, because he was worried about beating Detroit.

8. Jerry Manuel's inconsistency in late-game situations. One day he would pinch-hit for Miguel Olivo, the next he would let Olivo swing away, because he was worried about Miguel's confidence level.

7. Jerry Manuel's insistence on giving playing time to Willie Harris, Armando Rios, Jose Paniaqua, and anyone else who deserves to be labled as a "scrub."

6. Jerry Manuel's refusal to confront players who were guilty of serious mental mistakes (D'Angelo Jimenez, for example).

5. Jerry Manuel's decision to rest players when they were hitting well, because he was worried about them being tired.

4. Jerry Manuel's complete misuse of the bullpen, leaving players confused and frustrated, because no one knew what his role was.

3. Jerry Manuel's insistence on giving regular playing time to Paul Konerko, in spite of the fact that he was hitting .185 as late as July 6, and that the Sox had a player (Brian Daubach) capable of providing solid production at 1B/DH.

2. Jerry Manuel's constant tinkering with the lineup, which caused the offense to sputter through an inconsistent first half.

And finally...

1. Jerry Manuel's complete and utter refusal to play Frank Thomas, a future Hall-of-Famer, at first base, largely because he was worried about getting Paul Konerko's bat going.

Gumshoe
09-19-2003, 01:59 PM
Where are all the people that were asking me if I'll give KW credit? HE DESERVES NONE UNLESS WE GET TO THE PLAYOFFS. If we don't get there, there he is again, underachieving. His deals have been nothing short of disastrous. DEALS.

Clearly it's complicated, but he's JR's boy ... and it's not like he's done a lot of things RIGHT

Gumshoe

soxrme
09-19-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Reasons we have 10 fewer wins and lost the division.

1.) Anemic offense, largely caused by Jerry Manuel refusing to go with a set lineup until well past the halfway point of the season.

2.) Manuel's misuse of the bullpen, leaving pitchers in too long and failing to anticipate lefty/righty combinations.

3.) Paul Konerko's league-worst hitting failures, aggravated further by Manuel's stubborn insistence on playing Paul Konerko long after it became clear his hot streaks were the anomaly, not his slumps.

4.) Failing to pinch hit in game situations, especially in the first-half. The Sox all but forfeited games letting Sandy and Miguel bat for themselves in the ninth inning.

5.) Continued decline of Jose Valentin.

6.) Lack of situational hitting and ridiculous proclivity for grounding into double-plays, especially Konerko and Ordonez.

7.) Sub-optimal performance from Frank Thomas, the team's best overall hitter. A smart manager wouldn't have aggravated this situation but Manuel did, refusing to stick Frank at 1B.

8.) Painfully slow development of younger ballplayers, especially Jon Garland and Joe Crede.

9.) Dan Wright's struggles (injury?) and the resulting lack of a fifth starter.

10.) Sox Fans. We're not to blame, but somehow you know the chairman will put this on us just the same.

:(: what he said

On a positive note, Esteban Loaiza's career year has been good for at least five EXTRA wins we had no business expecting from him. The Sox should start with the premise that those 5 extra wins won't be there next year.

Rocklive99
09-19-2003, 02:49 PM
Don't forget the annual west coast road trip