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Lip Man 1
09-19-2003, 01:25 AM
To Rick Morrissey of the Chicago Tribune:

A.J. Pierzynski-- "We have a lot of guys who do little things. We have guys who will bunt. We've got guys who will steal bases."

Denny Hocking-- "We understand that we're not going to hit two three-run homers in a game. We're going to have to outsmart teams. We're going to have to outthink teams and we're going to have to outplay teams.

"When this team gets away from executing the fundamentals, that's when we take a step back. But when our pitchers throw strikes and keep the game moving, and we take good at-bats and field ground balls and throw to the right base, we're a pretty good team."

Morrissey also brings up a brutally honest point. "The Twins play very hard for Ron Gardenhire. The White Sox play for Jerry Manuel. Notice the difference?"
------------------------------------------------

O.K. I'm now ready, able and willing to listen to all of those who were insisting that "small ball," "little things," and "fundamentals'
weren't that important... that 'bunting" is a wasted out, that by attempting to steal you are risking getting a guy pegged and ruin a big inning.

I'm here to hear all the statistic arguments proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that D'Angelo Jimenez who was the principle sleepwalker (especially on the bases) in the first half is without
question TEN times the baseball player that Roberto Alomar is...

and finally I'm listening for comments about how Carl Everett was such a "cancer" and the Sox really would be far better off with that master of skills Aaron Rowand getting the bulk of the playing time.

The only chance that the Sox had this year came after Williams cut the four deals bringing in four veteran players The Cubs are hot on the trail of a playoff spot because they went out and picked up six veteran players after they trailed Houston by 5 1/2 in July.

And even with the established vets the Sox fell apart because of the "inspiring" leadership and communicative skills of the esteemed Manager Gandhi who'd screw up the cure for cancer, a two car funeral and a Little League team.

Please friends and neighbors no more stats, no more defending Gandhi and no more blaming the umpires.

Thank you.

Lip

jeremyb1
09-19-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I'm here to hear all the statistic arguments proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that D'Angelo Jimenez who was the principle sleepwalker (especially on the bases) in the first half is without
question TEN times the baseball player that Roberto Alomar is...

Its important to note no one ever claimed Jimenez is ten times the player Alomar is. The biggest factors Jimenez has in his favor are that he's still young and improving, he's cheaper than Alomar, and he will continue to be cheap since he's not yet arbitration elligible. That said he does outproduce Alomar.

My argument is that Jimenez's OBP is 20 points higher than Alomar. Calculate that to 500 plate appearances and over the course of a season and Jimenez reaches base at least ten times more in a season than Alomar. Figure in the fact that Jimenez hit considerably more base hits than Alomar and his offensive production is even better. Do Alomar's defense, clubhouse presence, and defense make up for this lack of production? Quite possibly but probably not to the extent that its worth paying him 5 or 6 times as much as Jimenez. Once you figure in the fact that Alomar has been declining while Jimenez is improving (his OBP with Cincinatti is .370, .040 points better than Alomar or reaching base around 20 times more than Alomar in a season) and I think Jimenez is more desirable despite his flaws.

JasonC23
09-19-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
To Rick Morrissey of the Chicago Tribune:

Denny Hocking-- [B]"We understand that we're not going to hit two three-run homers in a game."

------------------------------------------------

O.K. I'm now ready, able and willing to listen to all of those who were insisting that "small ball," "little things," and "fundamentals'
weren't that important... that 'bunting" is a wasted out, that by attempting to steal you are risking getting a guy pegged and ruin a big inning.

Lip

No matter what Denny Hocking says, the Twins won yesterday's game because they hit two 2-run homers. That's not small ball, that's big ball.

And I'd address some of your other points, but I'm too depressed about the way this season is ending. :(:

Hullett_Fan
09-19-2003, 08:39 AM
Exactly Lip. We lost because of our idiotic manager AND because we have a bunch of hacks in our lineup. It's hard to hit a 3-run HR when no one knows how to get on base. Pop-up after pop-up.

I think almost everyone on this board is too light on Konerko. He deserves as much blame as Manuel for destroying our postseason chances. He's hitting 30-40 pts. below his career average. Probably translates to 20-30 extra RBI, which translates to winning at least 4-5 of those one-run losses we had in April - June. If he's a real 'team leader' he'll come out and apologize for his piss poor play.

Manuel, Konerko and Koch are personally responsible for 10-15 losses this year. Period.

FanOf14
09-19-2003, 08:41 AM
To be honest, I couldn't care less what the twinks have to say. They are so full of themselves it's hysterical. Chances are really good that they are going to win the division, but let's face it, they are not as great as they think they are. I hope that the Tiggers get sick of their mouths and dancing in the box and throw a few brush back pitches - what have they got to lose? :?:

FanOf14
09-19-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan


I think almost everyone on this board is too light on Konerko.


That's funny. You apparently just came 'round recently as most of the season there were at least 2-3 threads running at the same time how we should get rid of him, that he is worthless, etc. I say trade him to the Dodgers, heck it's where he started and they only have McGriff at 1st and he has seemed to do much anyways.

alohafri
09-19-2003, 09:01 AM
Paulie is Gandhi's "golden boy." If Manuel goes, Paulie will be gone.

Hullett_Fan
09-19-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
That's funny. You apparently just came 'round recently as most of the season there were at least 2-3 threads running at the same time how we should get rid of him, that he is worthless, etc. I say trade him to the Dodgers, heck it's where he started and they only have McGriff at 1st and he has seemed to do much anyways.

I've been around...and after I wrote that I remembered seeing some 'trade Paulie' threads. Still, he hasn't gotten half the grief Manuel's gotten and IMO they're equally responsible for this abysmal season.

Jerko
09-19-2003, 09:10 AM
After the Wills show last night, AJ pweriower and Denny Hocker were on AM1000 national show and they themselves were questioning the heart of the entire Sox team while barely pretending to not be dissing them. I guess in game 1 at the HHH dome a Sox player who was on first told Mientwqerid "good luck, I hope you go all the way" and Mientekwqerij said "huh, what are you talking about" or something like that and could not believe that the Sox player even said that at that point and time. IF THAT IS TRUE, since who knows if those guys are BSing, but if it is true, this team is a bunch of quitters, and the person they quit on is taking a siesta in the dugout and doesn't even see it. Even last night's game, Colon is getting squeezed by the umpire worse than by his pants and the announcers were even saying "uh, somebody on the bench please go say something". I can't STAND this team under JM. Carlos Lee had to tell JM when to use a pinch runner. Wake the @#$@#$%#@ up and can this guy's ass NOW! I am infuriated by the fact that a PLAYER had to tell his manager what move to make! WHAT IS HE DOING THERE! I can plant a Chia head in the corner of the dugout and at least IT would stay interested in the game! DAMMIT this guy better have nobody left defending him after this. Brutal.

MetalliSox
09-19-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

and finally I'm listening for comments about how Carl Everett was such a "cancer" and the Sox really would be far better off with that master of skills Aaron Rowand getting the bulk of the playing time.



I agree. When we got him, I was skeptical. He is clearly not a CF. No range and no arm, but if we could have 9 Carl Everett's in our line up, I'd be a happy man.
He doesn't always swings for the fences and never tries to do too much. I respect the guy. He had one bad year off the field and took a lot of heat about it. He has come around.
If we brought him back, I'd be a happy guy.

FanOf14
09-19-2003, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
I've been around...and after I wrote that I remembered seeing some 'trade Paulie' threads. Still, he hasn't gotten half the grief Manuel's gotten and IMO they're equally responsible for this abysmal season.

Some trade threads? That's why I left for a short while - I agreed with them, but I didn't need to read the same thing 3 times every day. Yes Konerko sucked this year (whoever would deny this would need their head examined), but so did other members of this team. I am all for trading him for the right return package.

IMO the entire team (outside of Maggs, Lee and Loaiza) is to blame because they are the ones playing the game and they failed. There were few if any clutch players this year and that killed us, that and Manuel's laid back attitude (this team seems to need a guy with fire).

soxtalker
09-19-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


O.K. I'm now ready, able and willing to listen to all of those who were insisting that "small ball," "little things," and "fundamentals'
weren't that important... that 'bunting" is a wasted out, that by attempting to steal you are risking getting a guy pegged and ruin a big inning.

...

Please friends and neighbors no more stats, no more defending Gandhi and no more blaming the umpires.

Thank you.

Lip

I think that you'll need a more detailed analysis to dismiss statistical arguments. And rather than just looking at the Twins vs. the Sox, it might be worthwhile to look at the Oakland A's. A lot of aspects of "small ball", "little things", and "fundamentals" are entirely consistent with a statistical approach. True, bunting and base-stealing are not. There's a lot in the statistical approach that could have helped the Sox -- one walk in each game of the series seems awfully low.

I'm not an expert/advocate of the statistical approach. My only exposure was a recent reading of "Moneyball". However, I have a few observations. First, I do use statistics occasionally in my work, and my impression is that the use of statistics in baseball is by no means a finished, polished practice. Over the next few years, you'll probably see people digging down and pulling out finer and finer details. There's probably an awful lot that Beane did not reveal in Moneyball. Second, you'll probably never be able to account for everything using statistics -- just a lot. Finally, I wouldn't be surprised if statistics dramatically alters the game within 10 years. The success of Oakland is already spreading to the hiring of like-minded GM's in Toronto and Boston.

bc2k
09-19-2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
After the Wills show last night, AJ pweriower and Denny Hocker were on AM1000 national show and they themselves were questioning the heart of the entire Sox team while barely pretending to not be dissing them. I guess in game 1 at the HHH dome a Sox player who was on first told Mientwqerid "good luck, I hope you go all the way" and Mientekwqerij said "huh, what are you talking about" or something like that and could not believe that the Sox player even said that at that point and time. IF THAT IS TRUE, since who knows if those guys are BSing, but if it is true, this team is a bunch of quitters, and the person they quit on is taking a siesta in the dugout and doesn't even see it. Even last night's game, Colon is getting squeezed by the umpire worse than by his pants and the announcers were even saying "uh, somebody on the bench please go say something". I can't STAND this team under JM. Carlos Lee had to tell JM when to use a pinch runner. Wake the @#$@#$%#@ up and can this guy's ass NOW! I am infuriated by the fact that a PLAYER had to tell his manager what move to make! WHAT IS HE DOING THERE! I can plant a Chia head in the corner of the dugout and at least IT would stay interested in the game! DAMMIT this guy better have nobody left defending him after this. Brutal.

If there is one bright spot to come out of this series it is the fact that Pierzynski and Hocking are saying the Sox are quitters. This is the garbage attitude that we fans have had to put up with for four years from our Sox! I hope they put a spotlight on the Sox players. I don't consider what Pier and Hocking said about the Sox to be trash talk, they're just telling the truth.

As a fan, all year it was harder to root for this team than it should have been. Offensive inconsistency, lack of effort/heart, dumb plays bad fundamentals. I rooted for a Twins to be swept in the playoffs in years' past, but now I'm rooting for the Twins to go all the way since they play the game right and are an easy team to like. I hate playing against Pier but would love him on my team.

Jerko, I was throwing stuff around my room when Crede was yet to be lifted for Harris. I kept waiting for it to be announced since Crede represented the TYING RUN! What else could Manuel have been thinking about?

I would love to find out which Sox player said that to Mientkiwicz. If you're sure it was in game 1, we can narrow it down to a handful of players. I don't know if Konerko got to first that game, but that sounds like something Konerko would say.

Jerko
09-19-2003, 10:23 AM
I THOUGHT I heard it was Olivo, but I can't be sure.

shane
09-19-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by JasonC23
No matter what Denny Hocking says, the Twins won yesterday's game because they hit two 2-run homers. That's not small ball, that's big ball.

And I'd address some of your other points, but I'm too depressed about the way this season is ending. :(:

They did play great fundamental baseball. Last night was the longball, but they swept us, and it wasn't on long balls. We had players trying to do little things on offense, the problem is, they get on base and one of the big boppers comes up to pop out or fly out.

shane
09-19-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't know if Konerko got to first that game, but that sounds like something Konerko would say.

That sounds exactly like something Konerko would say.

Here's your choices based on people that could have been on first:

R Alomar
CLee
Frank
Maggs
Everett
Crede

I've got my money on Konerko playing first and saying this to McSandwich after he reached base.

bc2k
09-19-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by shane
That sounds exactly like something Konerko would say.

Here's your choices based on people that could have been on first:

R Alomar
CLee
Frank
Maggs
Everett
Crede

I've got my money on Konerko playing first and saying this to McSandwich after he reached base.

I would rule out Everett and Alomar since they haven't competed with the twins the past three years (as Sox rivals) and don't really have a bond with them. I'm pretty sure Crede is a mute, and I, based on no facts, don't see Frank or CLee EVER saying such a thing. That doesn't sound like Maggs either.

That leaves me with Konerko, who I originally thought it was. That hurts more than all his double plays combined.

Though, could Paulie - or whoever said it - have been trying to psyche out the Twins? Mind games in Minny?

Jerko
09-19-2003, 10:49 AM
OLIVO got to first. The one time he actually hit the ball he forced Crede at 2nd.

harwar
09-19-2003, 10:51 AM
The twins think that they one of the best now but the truth is that the White Sox GAVE them those games.I don't expect them to win more than ONE game in the first round.

shane
09-19-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
OLIVO got to first. The one time he actually hit the ball he forced Crede at 2nd.

You're right. He grounded into a fielder's choice. Add Olivo to the list, but why would he say it? He needs to concentrate on catching balls, not playing mind games.

I'm still going with Konerko.

FanOf14
09-19-2003, 11:06 AM
According to Mantkevich (however you spell it), it was a player who was on first which to me sounds like someone who reached first and PK did not reach first (according to the box score - my stomach couldn't take watching the game after the first).

Randar68
09-19-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Denny Hocking-- "We understand that we're not going to hit two three-run homers in a game. We're going to have to outsmart teams. We're going to have to outthink teams and we're going to have to outplay teams.



Ahhhh, good ole' Denny Hocking. The same Denny Hocking that last week bitched and moaned about the Sox "standing and watching" their HR's. Was he at the game last night where Jones stood and watched his 2 HR's in the box?

Nothing like the good ole' baseball player idiots for a quote.

FanOf14
09-19-2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
Nothing like the good ole' baseball player idiots for a quote.

Randar - I couldn't have said it better myself.

I have to be honest in that I really don't believe any Sox player said anything of the sort to a Twinkie - too much bad blood between the teams. If something at all was said, I am willing to bet that what was repeated on the air was completely out of context and thus had it's meaning changed.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2003, 12:29 PM
Jeremy says: " My argument is that Jimenez's OBP is 20 points higher than Alomar. Calculate that to 500 plate appearances and over the course of a season and Jimenez reaches base at least ten times more in a season than Alomar. Figure in the fact that Jimenez hit considerably more base hits than Alomar and his offensive production is even better. Do Alomar's defense, clubhouse presence, and defense make up for this lack of production? Quite possibly but probably not to the extent that its worth paying him 5 or 6 times as much as Jimenez. Once you figure in the fact that Alomar has been declining while Jimenez is improving (his OBP with Cincinatti is .370, .040 points better than Alomar or reaching base around 20 times more than Alomar in a season) and I think Jimenez is more desirable despite his flaws.


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Lip

soxruleEP
09-19-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Its important to note no one ever claimed Jimenez is ten times the player Alomar is. The biggest factors Jimenez has in his favor are that he's still young and improving, he's cheaper than Alomar, and he will continue to be cheap since he's not yet arbitration elligible. That said he does outproduce Alomar.

My argument is that Jimenez's OBP is 20 points higher than Alomar. Calculate that to 500 plate appearances and over the course of a season and Jimenez reaches base at least ten times more in a season than Alomar. Figure in the fact that Jimenez hit considerably more base hits than Alomar and his offensive production is even better. Do Alomar's defense, clubhouse presence, and defense make up for this lack of production? Quite possibly but probably not to the extent that its worth paying him 5 or 6 times as much as Jimenez. Once you figure in the fact that Alomar has been declining while Jimenez is improving (his OBP with Cincinatti is .370, .040 points better than Alomar or reaching base around 20 times more than Alomar in a season) and I think Jimenez is more desirable despite his flaws.

TEN TIMES MORE! AS MUCH AS THAT!

That's great--so for the sake of ten more total bases (or 2.5 runs created) we have an idiot on the basepaths, a second baseman with no range and no arm, and a clubhouse cancer. he cost more than that on one play I that I can recall.

I don't care how cheap Jimenez was/is--he is too expensive at any price.

voodoochile
09-19-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
TEN TIMES MORE! AS MUCH AS THAT!

That's great--so for the sake of ten more total bases (or 2.5 runs created) we have an idiot on the basepaths, a second baseman with no range and no arm, and a clubhouse cancer. he cost more than that on one play I that I can recall.

I don't care how cheap Jimenez was/is--he is too expensive at any price.

Now now, be fair, it might be as much as 15 total bases if a couple of those are extra base hits and that comes out to almost 4 whole extra runs...