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View Full Version : 2 Year extention for Valentin?


duke of dorwood
09-18-2003, 11:06 PM
Per Bruce Levine, this is apparently being discussed,

RichH55
09-18-2003, 11:08 PM
Better than what we would have to pay for him if the option vests.....2 yrs 6 million at max?

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 11:09 PM
I was wondering about this. I figured they would try to do it if they could then they can split the $5M he would have gotten next year between him and Robbie and try to keep them both.

RichH55
09-18-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I was wondering about this. I figured they would try to do it if they could then they can split the $5M he would have gotten next year between him and Robbie and try to keep them both.

That would answer the 2b/SS question....put Reed in CF and that just leaves pitching as the ???

duke of dorwood
09-18-2003, 11:13 PM
Levine says this is because they have no one coming up, and they do not plan to bid for Tejada

RichH55
09-18-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Levine says this is because they have no one coming up, and they do not plan to bid for Tejada

Sounds like the reasoning.....also having Alomar/Valentin at 5-6 million total, leaves you alot more flexibility than Tejada at 9 per and a 2B on top of that..

Daver
09-18-2003, 11:24 PM
I will be a bit surprised if Tejada is not playing for the A's next season.

MetalliSox
09-18-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I will be a bit surprised if Tejada is not playing for the A's next season.

I don't want Tejada. He is just another free swinging power hitter. We have enough.

ma_deuce
09-18-2003, 11:42 PM
Jose is done. Get rid of him and Everett. Pick up a SS and bring up Borchard. Do your best to keep Carlos, and try to trade Konerko. Keep as many Alamars as you can (preferably Roberto) and bring back the Ball Girl.

AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, FIRE JERRY MANUEL ON OCTOBER 1 (IF NOT SOONER)!!! :angry:

lowesox
09-18-2003, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
put Reed in CF and that just leaves pitching

Call me crazy, I say we try to keep Everett. I like him a lot. I like his heart, and how he is clutch. I don't think it's a coincidence how much better the record is with him.

Valentin on the other hand doesn't do much for me. I'm sure there's a good defensive shortstop out there somewhere.

Banix12
09-19-2003, 04:18 AM
I say keep everett too. He is the only guy on this team who seems to want to get hits as well as homeruns. i would rather him play DH instead of center but if Thomas is around that doesn't seem likely.

Valentin hits a lot of homers for a shortstop but that average just seems to get lower and lower. defensively he's been great since Robbie showed up so that's not too big of an issue with me. I just worry about locking up millions of dollars with a guy who is basically a platoon player.

RedPinStripes
09-19-2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by ma_deuce
Jose is done. Get rid of him and Everett. Pick up a SS and bring up Borchard. Do your best to keep Carlos, and try to trade Konerko. Keep as many Alamars as you can (preferably Roberto) and bring back the Ball Girl.

AND FOR GOD'S SAKE, FIRE JERRY MANUEL ON OCTOBER 1 (IF NOT SOONER)!!! :angry:
Bring up Borchard? For what?

thepaulbowski
09-19-2003, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
Bring up Borchard? For what?

because we need more strikeouts

JRIG
09-19-2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I will be a bit surprised if Tejada is not playing for the A's next season.

I'd be shocked if Tejada is playing for the A's next year. They've got one of the best prospects in baseball, Bobby Crosby, sitting at AAA, and Tejada is not a guy I think Beane would overpay for.

Procol Harum
09-19-2003, 09:00 AM
Keep Valentin for another two years? So his defensive skills can begin to erode back to what they were in 2000? So he can hit .144 from the right side of the plate against lefties? I don't think so.

Given the choice I'd much rather have Everett on this team as a DH and stopgap reserve outfielder. He's crazy, but he's good crazy. He actually seems to be able to hit situationally, has decent power, and is pretty smart on the basepaths. We need 4-5 more guys with those kind of attributes.

34 Inch Stick
09-19-2003, 09:04 AM
He's crazy because he strictly interprets the Bible and thinks archeologists are all in on some conspiracy to dupe the world. However as long as he believes that a bat hitting a ball makes that ball move in the opposite direction he is fine by me.

He's crazy between the ears but not between the white lines.

soxtalker
09-19-2003, 09:07 AM
I wonder if they've painted themselves into a corner. Valentine is awfully close to the majic number of plate appearances that he needs to force that $5M salary next year. Unless the word comes down from KW that he should be benched the rest of the season, I'd guess that he's going to hit it.

Two more years seems like an incredible gamble, as his batting skills do seem to have eroded. Wonder if there is any thought to placing him somewhere else in the organization.

shane
09-19-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'd be shocked if Tejada is playing for the A's next year. They've got one of the best prospects in baseball, Bobby Crosby, sitting at AAA, and Tejada is not a guy I think Beane would overpay for.

Tejada is not a guy that anyone should overpay for, including us. If he can be obtained for a fair price, I really like the guy. Throughout the twins series, we heard a lot of talk about our guys not having heart, and that's one thing Tejada does have. Still, I think his bat is very overrated, and we have got to retain/obtain some pitching. It doesn't matter who's behind the pitcher, if the pitching stinks, we won't win.

Bobby Thigpen
09-19-2003, 09:37 AM
If they could get BOTH Jose and Robbie for 5-6 mill, that would be one of the greatest moves the organization has ever made. It would free up money to get some pitching and solidify the infield defense while giving us the veteran leadership Alomar provides and the heart and clubhouse presence Jose provides. This would be a great signing. If you let both go you have a lot of problems and you may as well go into full blown rebuild mode.

Your not going to get 1 decent player for that kind of money, let alone two.

jabrch
09-19-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I will be a bit surprised if Tejada is not playing for the A's next season.

I would be shocked if Tejada is not a Cub next year. Just a gut feeling...

shane
09-19-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
If they could get BOTH Jose and Robbie for 5-6 mill, that would be one of the greatest moves the organization has ever made. It would free up money to get some pitching and solidify the infield defense while giving us the veteran leadership Alomar provides and the heart and clubhouse presence Jose provides. This would be a great signing. If you let both go you have a lot of problems and you may as well go into full blown rebuild mode.

Your not going to get 1 decent player for that kind of money, let alone two.

I tend to agree here. I'm not a Valentin fan at all, but he alone is not going to kill this team. I really like Robbie and don't want to see him go. The saved money would be huge for the pitching we need. I'm always the first to say dump Valentin, but retaining both for that price seems like a great move to me.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Call me crazy, I say we try to keep Everett. I like him a lot. I like his heart, and how he is clutch. I don't think it's a coincidence how much better the record is with him.

Valentin on the other hand doesn't do much for me. I'm sure there's a good defensive shortstop out there somewhere.

I only keep Everett if they can find a way to dump Konerko and Carl signs for significantly less than what he is now making.

If they can dump Konerko, you split time with Reed/Everett in CF and Thomas/Dogbag at 1st and mix in off-days for Maggs/Lee.

Basically, you're splitting time at DH between Carl and Frank. At the same time, you are slowly easing Reed into the picture.

I like that idea, but again, it all hinges on Carl signing for a lot less and the Sox dumping Konerko.

Gumshoe
09-19-2003, 11:23 AM
Randar, you think I'm crazy, but I know you can't be SO irrational to see my points. For this reason, MBs are always ridiculous. If you get rid of Thomas and try to create a "different" atmosphere --- in all senses of the word --- maybe you really start to win games that you expect to win, and not underachieve as KW has done with all his so-called "talent"

Put Rowand in CF, bring in Miles, get rid of Alomar, Everett, Frank ... just start new. Those other guys can play, and they'll hustle. I like Everett as a hitter, but his legs are brutal and why should we keep these old guys around? We're NOT going to keep them all, and doing so would just be stupid for the future.

Is this reasonable? I don't know where some of you guys come from, honestly, if you can't at least understand this line of thinking. Do something DIFFERENT!

G

Randar68
09-19-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Randar, you think I'm crazy, but I know you can't be SO irrational to see my points. For this reason, MBs are always ridiculous. If you get rid of Thomas and try to create a "different" atmosphere --- in all senses of the word --- maybe you really start to win games that you expect to win, and not underachieve as KW has done with all his so-called "talent"

Put Rowand in CF, bring in Miles, get rid of Alomar, Everett, Frank ... just start new. Those other guys can play, and they'll hustle. I like Everett as a hitter, but his legs are brutal and why should we keep these old guys around? We're NOT going to keep them all, and doing so would just be stupid for the future.

Is this reasonable? I don't know where some of you guys come from, honestly, if you can't at least understand this line of thinking. Do something DIFFERENT!

G

Everything there is reasonable except for the assertion that Rowand and Miles should play. Reed is the future, Rowand is already bordering on the past.

Lip Man 1
09-19-2003, 12:18 PM
Gumshoe:

Here's a radical idea to "do something different..."

How about trying to spend 80 million dollars on a payroll and see what happens? Instead of always trying to go cheap and hope for a miracle. Wow!

Lip

Win1ForMe
09-19-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I wonder if they've painted themselves into a corner. Valentine is awfully close to the majic number of plate appearances that he needs to force that $5M salary next year. Unless the word comes down from KW that he should be benched the rest of the season, I'd guess that he's going to hit it.

Two more years seems like an incredible gamble, as his batting skills do seem to have eroded. Wonder if there is any thought to placing him somewhere else in the organization.

I think that of the 10 games left, 5 of them are against lefty pitchers (2x Anderson, 2x May, Wells). He's probably going to sit at least 3 games (although if I were managing Robbie would play all five).

Also, we should probably give some of our September call-ups playing time when we're mathematically eliminated. That could take away from Valenin's ABs. I don't think he's going to get it.

longshot7
09-19-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I would be shocked if Tejada is not a Cub next year. Just a gut feeling...

or an Angel.

KingXerxes
09-19-2003, 01:59 PM
In no way would I bring Valentin back onto this team. I honestly think they'd be far better off using the $5mm on pitching and playing Graffanino at short. A .200 hitting - somewhat suspect fielding - power hitting shortstop is about the last thing this team needs.

Procol Harum
09-19-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Gumshoe:

Here's a radical idea to "do something different..."

How about trying to spend 80 million dollars on a payroll and see what happens? Instead of always trying to go cheap and hope for a miracle. Wow!

Lip

Man, Lip, you must be smokin' some of that home-grown Idaho Mother Nature--get real! :D:

soxrme
09-19-2003, 02:02 PM
I do not believe we should bring him back, 225 average and can't
hit from the right anymore. We always hear what a good leader he is but his time is done in my opinion.

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
because we need more strikeouts

Crazy Carl isnt a K machine himself?

Note: I have to check the numbers still, but I seem to remember many K's from Carl as well

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
He's crazy because he strictly interprets the Bible and thinks archeologists are all in on some conspiracy to dupe the world. However as long as he believes that a bat hitting a ball makes that ball move in the opposite direction he is fine by me.

He's crazy between the ears but not between the white lines.


Ohhh he's crazy between the white lines too....though not so much this year....He is injury prone and on the wrong side of 30

AND oh yeah....just happened to have this little "rebound" year in a contract year......Not exactly the investment I want to make

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Randar, you think I'm crazy, but I know you can't be SO irrational to see my points. For this reason, MBs are always ridiculous. If you get rid of Thomas and try to create a "different" atmosphere --- in all senses of the word --- maybe you really start to win games that you expect to win, and not underachieve as KW has done with all his so-called "talent"

Put Rowand in CF, bring in Miles, get rid of Alomar, Everett, Frank ... just start new. Those other guys can play, and they'll hustle. I like Everett as a hitter, but his legs are brutal and why should we keep these old guys around? We're NOT going to keep them all, and doing so would just be stupid for the future.

Is this reasonable? I don't know where some of you guys come from, honestly, if you can't at least understand this line of thinking. Do something DIFFERENT!

G


This line of thinking isn't different at all....Miles in, Frank out....its been done

See: 2003 and TB and Detroit

Play with no talent

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
In no way would I bring Valentin back onto this team. I honestly think they'd be far better off using the $5mm on pitching and playing Graffanino at short. A .200 hitting - somewhat suspect fielding - power hitting shortstop is about the last thing this team needs.

I'm assuming that if they bring him back for the 2 year stint....it won't be for 5 million per...that makes a big difference IMO

Banix12
09-19-2003, 03:29 PM
Here's the thing about valentin. He has never been able to hit well from the right side. He had similar numbers from the right when he was playing for milwaukee. If he could get it through his head that he should just bat lefty i think he would raise his average about thirty points

OurBitchinMinny
09-19-2003, 03:30 PM
We need to keep everett. He plays with heart and maybe a full year will be able to teach other guys how to have heart. I dont care if valentin our alomar is back. Id rather have everett DH, but I dont mind him in CF that much. Get rid of daubach and frank and that frees up DH

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Banix12
Here's the thing about valentin. He has never been able to hit well from the right side. He had similar numbers from the right when he was playing for milwaukee. If he could get it through his head that he should just bat lefty i think he would raise his average about thirty points


Why can't you just tell him to do that?

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
We need to keep everett. He plays with heart and maybe a full year will be able to teach other guys how to have heart. I dont care if valentin our alomar is back. Id rather have everett DH, but I dont mind him in CF that much. Get rid of daubach and frank and that frees up DH

So your rationale to keep a guy is based entirely on "heart," but you want to dump the guy with the biggest heart on the team in Jose?

And what part of Carl Everett...Contract Year aren't we getting?

shane
09-19-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by ChisoxfaninMinny
We need to keep everett. He plays with heart and maybe a full year will be able to teach other guys how to have heart. I dont care if valentin our alomar is back. Id rather have everett DH, but I dont mind him in CF that much. Get rid of daubach and frank and that frees up DH

Big contract, he can go somewhere else. Reasonable, I'll take him. However, they'd better tell him prior to any contract that he's a DH or it's going to be Boston all over again. We don't need that crap in the clubhouse.

StillMissOzzie
09-21-2003, 03:03 AM
Now let me get this straight. Some have posted that the Sox are talking with Valentin about a 2 year extention, but we also know that he's locked into next year at $5 million if he gets a certain number of AB's this year. Here's my hypothetical conversation between JR and Valentin's agent:

JR: Now, Jose's contract vests for $5 million if he gets x more AB's, right?

JVA: That's right

JR: We're thinking about a 2 year extention at, say, $3 million per year.

JVA: But what about next year's vesting of $5 million?

JR: What is Jose doesn't get his ass off the bench again this season and Tony G plays short the rest of the year? It's not like we're in this race any more.

JVA: Let's talk...

Tragg
09-21-2003, 02:35 PM
Keep Frank, get rid of both alomars, everett, valentin, daubach (pick up a more productive pinch hitter somewhere).
Major offseason task - for goodness sakes, find a lead-off hitter.

chisox1388
09-21-2003, 03:59 PM
Here's what we do. We let everett, colon, both alomars,valentin walk, attempt to trade thomas while he has value. If you accomplish those tasks, thats about 36 million saved. Maggs contract jumps next year and you want to resign gordon and sullivan. Thats about 10 million right there. 26 million to play with, they should make a play a tejada (10-13 million) and castillo (6-8 million) in free agency. Then, bring up Borchard and put him in left, Carlos to DH, and let rowand, harris, or even reed battle it out in center.
Lineup

2b Castillo
dh Lee
ss Tejada
rf Ordonez
1b Konerko
3b Crede
lf Borchard
c Olivo (he'll be ready next year)
cf Harris, Rowand, Reed

Rotation

Buehrle
Loaiza
Garland
Schoenweis (he'll return to form)
Felix Diez

Bullpen

Wunsch
Sullivan
Wright
Gordon
Marte
Koch (hope he'll return to form)

You still have about 5 million to play with and a young and even more talented team than this year.

JRIG
09-21-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by chisox1388
Here's what we do. We let everett, colon, both alomars,valentin walk, attempt to trade thomas while he has value. If you accomplish those tasks, thats about 36 million saved. Maggs contract jumps next year and you want to resign gordon and sullivan. Thats about 10 million right there. 26 million to play with, they should make a play a tejada (10-13 million) and castillo (6-8 million) in free agency. Then, bring up Borchard and put him in left, Carlos to DH, and let rowand, harris, or even reed battle it out in center.


The problem with that logic, among other things, is that the Sox are not paying a dime for Everett or Alomar this year. And, If I'm not mistaken, we got some cash in the Colon deal as well. At most, that's only $17 million saved (Colon 6 mil, Thomas 5 mil, Sandy 1 mil, Valentin 5 mil) while ridding yourself of the team's best hitter and 2nd best starter.

Not to mention that somebody will overpay for Tejada in the offseason. If it's us, that's just another strike against KW. Tejada is worth nowhere near the money he'll probably get in the offseason.

duke of dorwood
09-21-2003, 04:18 PM
Starting with the manager, the core of this team has to be changed.

RichH55
09-21-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Keep Frank, get rid of both alomars, everett, valentin, daubach (pick up a more productive pinch hitter somewhere).
Major offseason task - for goodness sakes, find a lead-off hitter.

With the Alomars it all comes down to money....especially when Miles is the only organizational "answer".....If you can get both for 2.5 per(total) then you are doing good

RichH55
09-21-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Starting with the manager, the core of this team has to be changed.

Manager, I agree with....but core, I'm not sure

RichH55
09-21-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by chisox1388


Schoenweis (he'll return to form)
.

That's what I'm worried about.....For Schoenweis in regards to Starting....returning to form means Sucking

RichH55
09-21-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
Keep Frank, get rid of both alomars, everett, valentin, daubach (pick up a more productive pinch hitter somewhere).
Major offseason task - for goodness sakes, find a lead-off hitter.

Major Offseason Task-Find a Taker For Paulie

JRIG
09-21-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Major Offseason Task-Find a Taker For Paulie

I think I'd put that and "find a leadoff hitter" as 1A and 1B in terms of offseason importance.

After firing Manuel, of course.

RichH55
09-21-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I think I'd put that and "find a leadoff hitter" as 1A and 1B in terms of offseason importance.

After firing Manuel, of course.


Finding a taker for Paulie allows you more options in finding that leadoff hitter though....but in terms of the lineup spot and more importantly...the money

RKMeibalane
09-21-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I only keep Everett if they can find a way to dump Konerko and Carl signs for significantly less than what he is now making.

If they can dump Konerko, you split time with Reed/Everett in CF and Thomas/Dogbag at 1st and mix in off-days for Maggs/Lee.

Basically, you're splitting time at DH between Carl and Frank. At the same time, you are slowly easing Reed into the picture.

I like that idea, but again, it all hinges on Carl signing for a lot less and the Sox dumping Konerko.

I agree. Depending on what he does in Spring Training, Reed deserves a chance to make this team. There's no way he could do any worse than Harris out there.

If Reed is around for next season, then Carl Everett should be moved to DH, and Frank Thomas should be the first baseman. The Big Hurt has proven that he still has a lot of baseball left in him, and I would like to see Carl Everett kept around. He's one of the few players the Sox have who knows how to hit with men on base.

I've seen about all I need to see of Paul Konerko. His struggles in the first half left a huge hole in the middle of the lineup, a hole that was finally filled when Manuel moved Frank to first base. The Sox should not have signed him to that huge contract. He has yet to put an entire season together as far as good numbers are concerned.

If the Sox can find a way to move Konerko, they should do it. The Mets love everything from the American League. Maybe they would be interested.

RichH55
09-21-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I agree. Depending on what he does in Spring Training, Reed deserves a chance to make this team. There's no way he could do any worse than Harris out there.

If Reed is around for next season, then Carl Everett should be moved to DH, and Frank Thomas should be the first baseman. The Big Hurt has proven that he still has a lot of baseball left in him, and I would like to see Carl Everett kept around. He's one of the few players the Sox have who knows how to hit with men on base.

I've seen about all I need to see of Paul Konerko. His struggles in the first half left a huge hole in the middle of the lineup, a hole that was finally filled when Manuel moved Frank to first base. The Sox should not have signed him to that huge contract. He has yet to put an entire season together as far as good numbers are concerned.

If the Sox can find a way to move Konerko, they should do it. The Mets love everything from the American League. Maybe they would be interested.

The problem with Paulie is that even best case scenario with his hitting keeping him around is counterproductive to fielding a competitive team