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View Full Version : 3 offseason moves I'd like to see....


Randar68
09-18-2003, 11:11 AM
OK. Both of these are 100% pipedreams.

1) Trade Buehrle. Like many, I think he is a good pitcher. However, he is not overpowering and is going to have many seasons where he is in the 15-16 win range. I just don't think he'll ever be an ace of a contending club.

Work a deal with St. Louis. They are desperate for pitching. I don't know who, outside of Pujols I'd be interested in as there'd have to be some considerable talent involved in that trade to make it worth it. JD Drew and some of their other best players are never healthy...

2) Dump Konerko for anything you can get. We might have to take on some salary to do it.

3) Trade for Barry Bonds. He's getting to the point that he can't stay healthy playing OF and has stated he'd like to spend the last several years as a DH. I know it would cost quite a bit, but you may also be able to package Konerko or some others, maybe even Maggs, which I'd actually be OK with.


These are ALL pipedreams, now that I think about it, except for maybe #1, in which case I'm not real confident St. Louis has the right pieces to put together a package beneficial to the Sox.

thepaulbowski
09-18-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
OK. Both of these are 100% pipedreams.

1) Trade Buehrle. Like many, I think he is a good pitcher. However, he is not overpowering and is going to have many seasons where he is in the 15-16 win range. I just don't think he'll ever be an ace of a contending club.

Work a deal with St. Louis. They are desperate for pitching. I don't know who, outside of Pujols I'd be interested in as there'd have to be some considerable talent involved in that trade to make it worth it. JD Drew and some of their other best players are never healthy...

If we were to trade Buehrle, we'd HAVE to keep Colon. Also, trading him for an establised payer doesn't make sense, unles the other team takes on salary. He's only making around $500,000, so the team that took him would have to take on salary of whoever they sent our way. Unless they give up a boatload of prospects (which I don't think Saint Louis has).

Jerko
09-18-2003, 11:33 AM
Three moves I'd like to see:

1. Get rid of Manuel

2. Refurbish the dugout to get rid of any Manuel microbes that might affect the next manager

3. Replace Viagra outfield sign with a HE GONE sign referring to Jerry Manuel

Randar68
09-18-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
If we were to trade Buehrle, we'd HAVE to keep Colon. Also, trading him for an establised payer doesn't make sense, unles the other team takes on salary. He's only making around $500,000, so the team that took him would have to take on salary of whoever they sent our way. Unless they give up a boatload of prospects (which I don't think Saint Louis has).

Mark is arbitration eligible and will be due a hefty raise.

Randar68
09-18-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
Three moves I'd like to see:

1. Get rid of Manuel

2. Refurbish the dugout to get rid of any Manuel microbes that might affect the next manager

3. Replace Viagra outfield sign with a HE GONE sign referring to Jerry Manuel


I like all of them!

GoSox2K3
09-18-2003, 11:50 AM
Trading Buerhle at some point is not a bad idea since he keeps dropping hints that he's ready to bolt to St. Louis once he's eligible for free agency. Unfortuately, there's no way we're going to be able to keep Colon. Look for him to play in the Bronx next year.

I think the first thing the Sox need to do is get rid of Manual. Spending more money on players would be a waste of time if Manual is just going to flush another season down the toilet with managerial moves that are leaving even casual baseball fans scratching their heads.

This team is the most underacheiving Sox team I can remember. It can't ALL be Manual's fault. How we played against the Twins this week seems to be a continuation of how we played against Seattle in the 2000 ALDS. We have so many great hitters in our lineup and too many of them can't execute fundamentals or come through in the clutch. Sticking w/ the same core lineup is just going to get us more of the same next year.

I'm tired of hearing about how our lineup looks great ON PAPER only to have them fail in the games that matter. A shake up is needed (but, please, not another "Rebuilding" effort!)

Randar68
09-18-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
Trading Buerhle at some point is not a bad idea since he keeps dropping hints that he's ready to bolt to St. Louis once he's eligible for free agency. Unfortuately, there's no way we're going to be able to keep Colon. Look for him to play in the Bronx next year.

I think the first thing the Sox need to do is get rid of Manual. Spending more money on players would be a waste of time if Manual is just going to flush another season down the toilet with managerial moves that are leaving even casual baseball fans scratching their heads.

This team is the most underacheiving Sox team I can remember. It can't ALL be Manual's fault. How we played against the Twins this week seems to be a continuation of how we played against Seattle in the 2000 ALDS. We have so many great hitters in our lineup and too many of them can't execute fundamentals or come through in the clutch. Sticking w/ the same core lineup is just going to get us more of the same next year.

I'm tired of hearing about how our lineup looks great ON PAPER only to have them fail in the games that matter. A shake up is needed (but, please, not another "Rebuilding" effort!)

Maybe I should have clarified the original post as being under the assumption that Manual is gone.

maurice
09-18-2003, 12:00 PM
Assuming for the sake of argument that the Sox dump Maggs' salary this offseason, what lower-priced player(s) do you think we could/should get in return? A good, young SS would be nice.

MHOUSE
09-18-2003, 12:17 PM
Buehrle will be traded at some point. He's obviously unhappy here and complains a lot. Maybe a better manager would settle him down, but he'll be a St. Louis pitcher at some point. Problem is that they're pretty unwilling to part with anyone but the oft-injured J.D. Drew. Manuel MUST GO.

Maggs for Bonds? You've got to be kidding me. Our best hitter for a guy who'll fight with Frank in the clubhouse and be retired in a few years? Please. Maggs is a much better everyday player for the long term. Bonds is a god, but I don't want him on my team. He can stay in the NL forever.

thepaulbowski
09-18-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Assuming for the sake of argument that the Sox dump Maggs' salary this offseason, what lower-priced player(s) do you think we could/should get in return? A good, young SS would be nice.


:hitless

Hey guys...I'll be available next year!

Randar68
09-18-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Buehrle will be traded at some point. He's obviously unhappy here and complains a lot. Maybe a better manager would settle him down, but he'll be a St. Louis pitcher at some point. Problem is that they're pretty unwilling to part with anyone but the oft-injured J.D. Drew. Manuel MUST GO.

Maggs for Bonds? You've got to be kidding me. Our best hitter for a guy who'll fight with Frank in the clubhouse and be retired in a few years? Please. Maggs is a much better everyday player for the long term. Bonds is a god, but I don't want him on my team. He can stay in the NL forever.

I love Maggs, but he makes 14 million next year, plays an average OF.

Bonds is a god at the plate, maybe the best hitter ever, and he's shown little signs of decline.

How long you think Maggs is gonna be here anyways?

Hangar18
09-18-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


How long you think Maggs is gonna be here anyways?

Career. hopefully. The sox marketing bozo's have no idea
how to market this guy. hes excellent and will be Consistent.
if the cubs can market a over-the-hill, terrible (by announcer standards) announcer, and have everyone in the Media think hes excellent back there, how can we not Market a 3time allstar?

Keep Maggs here. hes solid and plays overall good baseball

bc2k
09-18-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by GoSox2K3
How we played against the Twins this week seems to be a continuation of how we played against Seattle in the 2000 ALDS. We have so many great hitters in our lineup and too many of them can't execute fundamentals or come through in the clutch. Sticking w/ the same core lineup is just going to get us more of the same next year.

YES 2k3, I also paralled the 2000 ALDS with these past two games against the Twins.

Rocky Soprano
09-18-2003, 01:22 PM
1. Fire Manuel

2. Re-sign Colon

3. Trade Konerko

I would trade Mark B. if we could get something good.

I dont want Bonds anywhere near our team. Maggs is our cornerstone, build around him. Also keep C.Lee!

spanishwhite
09-18-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

2) Dump Konerko for anything you can get. We might have to take on some salary to do it.



His value isn't so bad. We almost got Ponson for him when he was struggling with the Mendoza line.

I would trade him for Mota. I would take on some of the salary, maybe.

Dodgers still need offense, and they would still have a top 2 bullpen without Mota.

I would do that more for the reason that I would try to shave some contraversy off of this team. The 1b issue with Thomas and Konerko, would end. Eventhough Thomas hasn't said anything recently.

daveeym
09-18-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
His value isn't so bad. We almost got Ponson for him when he was struggling with the Mendoza line.

I would trade him for Mota. I would take on some of the salary, maybe.

Dodgers still need offense, and they would still have a top 2 bullpen without Mota.

I would do that more for the reason that I would try to shave some contraversy off of this team. The 1b issue with Thomas and Konerko, would end. Eventhough Thomas hasn't said anything recently.

The Dodgers already dumped Konerko once I don't think they'll take him back.

Randar68
09-18-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
1) Trade Buehrle. Like many, I think he is a good pitcher. However, he is not overpowering and is going to have many seasons where he is in the 15-16 win range. I just don't think he'll ever be an ace of a contending club.

Work a deal with St. Louis. They are desperate for pitching. I don't know who, outside of Pujols I'd be interested in as there'd have to be some considerable talent involved in that trade to make it worth it. JD Drew and some of their other best players are never healthy...


OK, Buehrle for Édgar Rentería ????

soxtalker
09-18-2003, 02:48 PM
On trading Buehrle, St. Louis seems to be the obvious choice due to Mark's desire to return home. Who do they have in their high minor leagues that would be desirable to us and might come in a package?

maurice
09-18-2003, 02:56 PM
Buehrle and Maggs for Renteria and Pujols.

:cool:

WWIII
09-18-2003, 03:18 PM
Forget Robbie Alomar next year, trade Buehrle for Bo Hart and some prospects. I like Everett, but forget him and use Rowand in center. Hold Maggs, CLee for right and left. Unload Konerko (sorry Paulie), play Frank at first using Daubach every now and then to give Frank a rest. Pick up a rookie ss, I don't care who, unload Valentin, keep Crede at third and teach Olivo to hit.

Randar68
09-18-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by WWIII
Forget Robbie Alomar next year, trade Buehrle for Bo Hart and some prospects.

This would be one of the worst trades in Sox history.

jeremyb1
09-18-2003, 03:26 PM
I think dealing Buehrle would be a huge mistake. Its true he's arbitration elligible this season, but he still will be worth keeping. He shouldn't receive that much money coming off his worst season for us. He's worth 5 or 6 million even if he's only as good as this year but he's been better in the past and there's a good chance he'll rebound. Its hard to land young aces and you have to hold on to them when you find them. We still have Buehrle for three more seasons which is a very long time. Unless we don't think we can contend in the next three seasons, I don't see the point.

I like the idea of dumping Paully's salary. If we can do it without having to pay much more than 1/3rd of the rest of his salary, I'd go along with it. That would allow us to move Carlos to 1B/DH and find an undervalued run producing OF (or play Reed and Rowand) or to find a good run producing 1B/DH type for cheap.

Randar68
09-18-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I like the idea of dumping Paully's salary. If we can do it without having to pay much more than 1/3rd of the rest of his salary, I'd go along with it. That would allow us to move Carlos to 1B/DH and find an undervalued run producing OF (or play Reed and Rowand) or to find a good run producing 1B/DH type for cheap.

Let's see. Frank and Dog-bag splitting time at 1st/DH and leaving Lee in LF. He's more than capable defensively there now, why switch him at this point?

That's about 8 million combined Dog-bag/Thomas. Put Reed in CF and leave Rowand right where he is. Riding the bench as the 4th OF'er.


By the way, it's a stretch to call Buehrle an ace at this point. Even last year, would you have felt comfortable with him starting game 1 of a playoff series??? I wouldn't have.

Thunderstruck30
09-18-2003, 03:46 PM
Trading Ordonez for Bonds is a horrible idea. You dont get rid of your best hitter and fan favorite for a guy who will be retiring soon. And as someone else mentioned, he would cause problems with Frank about being DH.

Dadawg_77
09-18-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Thunderstruck30
Trading Ordonez for Bonds is a horrible idea. You dont get rid of your best hitter and fan favorite for a guy who will be retiring soon. And as someone else mentioned, he would cause problems with Frank about being DH.

Well if you can ship Konerko out of town, Frank goes to first. If we trade Mags for Bonds, maybe move Lee to Right and put Bonds in LF for some games.

booter14
09-18-2003, 03:53 PM
1) Trade Carlos Lee at his all-time peak for Frontline Pitcher (Pedro?)
2) Hope Frank does not exercise option, then not re-sign him.
3) Trade Garland for shortstop (Renteria, Rey Ordonez, or sweeten the deal and try for A Rod)

The Sox have too many DH's (this includes Lee) We need more pitching, more defense & more guys who have bat control.

Of course, all these events take place after JM is axed.

LauraJ14
09-18-2003, 03:58 PM
Well if we trade Buehrle to St. Louis, how about Fernando Vina?
Good leadoff hitter, good defensive 2nd baseman (if we don't keep Robbie)

Win1ForMe
09-18-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I like the idea of dumping Paully's salary. If we can do it without having to pay much more than 1/3rd of the rest of his salary, I'd go along with it. That would allow us to move Carlos to 1B/DH and find an undervalued run producing OF (or play Reed and Rowand) or to find a good run producing 1B/DH type for cheap.

I think getting rid of PK won't be as difficult as some predict. In this day and age the way to get a team to bite on sallary is to throw in a good prospect. While getting rid of a prospect seems like a bad move, I think it's more important for us to free up that money. The key would be Kenny convincing other GMs that Konerko's second half is what they should look at...

Several teams that would possibly be interested:

Dodgers - seeking offense and they don't have a first baseman signed for next year.
Angels - same deal, Spiezio is a free agent.
Baltimore - possible if they strike out in free agency.
Mets - also possible but depends on how sold they are on Jason Phillips and there's always the notion of Piazza at 1B.
Cubs - they don't really have a first baseman and this would be hilarious
Giants - have ancient Galaraga and JT Snow is a FA. Could this be the possible re-union of Konerko and Felipe Alou's bench coach-to-be, Jerry Manuel?
DBacks - they could always use more offense and they don't have a real first baseman

Who knows, if we get interest from multiple teams we might not even have to throw in a prospect.

oheeoh...magglio
09-18-2003, 04:54 PM
1. Keep the outfield in tact, i'd like to keep everett, even though we won't but i'd like to keep the outfield in tact.

2. Re-sign colon. This guy is a sub 30 year old horse who eats inning after inning.

3. Trade buehrle to st. louis. In my opinion, st. louis is desperate enough for a starter to give us renteria in that trade, if we give them a high level minor leaguer and they return a low level minor leaguer. Renteria is a solid shortstop who's a good clutch hitter, good defender, and DOESN'T HIT HOME RUNS, which is the type of guy we need. He's also relatively young, and hits for good average.

RichH55
09-18-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by booter14
1) Trade Carlos Lee at his all-time peak for Frontline Pitcher (Pedro?)
2) Hope Frank does not exercise option, then not re-sign him.
3) Trade Garland for shortstop (Renteria, Rey Ordonez, or sweeten the deal and try for A Rod)

The Sox have too many DH's (this includes Lee) We need more pitching, more defense & more guys who have bat control.

Of course, all these events take place after JM is axed.

These are supposed to be pipedreams, right?>

RichH55
09-18-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
The Dodgers already dumped Konerko once I don't think they'll take him back.

Why? Didn't they dump him in like 1997? What is still constant with LA that would preclude them from going after Paulie? I don't think the have the same GM(I know Dan Evans was here then), and I don't even think they have the same owner as thye did then.

A better question would be Dan Evans role in the Konerko-Cameron deal. Paulie might be an Evans guy, which would actually make LA a more intriguing destination....otherwise the only thing the same as it was in 1997 is Dodger Blue

jeremyb1
09-18-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
By the way, it's a stretch to call Buehrle an ace at this point. Even last year, would you have felt comfortable with him starting game 1 of a playoff series??? I wouldn't have.

We'd better hope Buehrle is an ace because he's definitely the best we've got and the future of the franchise as far as I'm concerned. Lets be realistic here, Frank is 35, Maggs is 30, Loaiza is 31 and there's no guarnatee he can repeat this season. Buehrle is 24 and has a career era of 3.7. Considering there are really only a handful of pitchers these days that can post an era below 4 and Buehrle has done it 2 out of his first 3 seasons, I think he's pretty good. Aside from your premonitions why shouldn't he be considered the key to the future of this franchise?

Randar68
09-18-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
We'd better hope Buehrle is an ace because he's definitely the best we've got and the future of the franchise as far as I'm concerned. Lets be realistic here, Frank is 35, Maggs is 30, Loaiza is 31 and there's no guarnatee he can repeat this season. Buehrle is 24 and has a career era of 3.7. Considering there are really only a handful of pitchers these days that can post an era below 4 and Buehrle has done it 2 out of his first 3 seasons, I think he's pretty good. Aside from your premonitions why shouldn't he be considered the key to the future of this franchise?

You did not even attempt to touch my assertion. Would you feel comfortable with MB pitching game 1 of a playoff series???

Mark is a very good pitcher, but he does not have dominating stuff by any means. He'll always give up quite a few hits. The key with his is his BB's, which have been up this year. He will always be effective, but he simply cannot dominate. In addition to that, when has MB ever come out on a "Must Win" night and pitched light's out? Certainly not when he was going for #20. Name me one major area of his game he can improve to get to that next level.

"Future of the franchise?"

I hope we're not in that bad of shape.

jeremyb1
09-18-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
You did not even attempt to touch my assertion. Would you feel comfortable with MB pitching game 1 of a playoff series???

Mark is a very good pitcher, but he does not have dominating stuff by any means. He'll always give up quite a few hits. The key with his is his BB's, which have been up this year. He will always be effective, but he simply cannot dominate. In addition to that, when has MB ever come out on a "Must Win" night and pitched light's out? Certainly not when he was going for #20. Name me one major area of his game he can improve to get to that next level.

"Future of the franchise?"

I hope we're not in that bad of shape.

I addressed your assertion when I referred to you having "premonitions". Your argument basically seems to be that you have a bad gut feeling about Buehrle starting in the playoffs.

Buehrle's walks are obviously up this season. He's not having his best season. However, unless you think that he's going to become worse ever season and that his first two seasons were a fluke, I don't see why his walks would continue to be a problem. Most pitchers don't master their control at 22 and then watch it decline.

Its true Buehrle doesn't have incredible stuff but neither does Jamie Moyer, Greg Maddux, or Tom Glavine and they all seem to get the job done without a lot of K's. Buehrle has pitched a number of outstanding games in his first three seasons with us and I'm not willing to give up on him because people think he's not a big game pitcher. As good of a pitcher as he is I don't see why he can't pitch well in important games and unimportant games.

One of the biggest problems here is, who are we going to replace Buehrle with if he leaves. No one appretiates him very much right now because this isn't his best season and we have Colon and Loaiza but reality check: Colon is gone after the season, we can't necessarily count on Loaiza to continue his dominance and if he does, he's most likely gone after next season. Buehrle is signed for three more seasons and will most likely be a top 10 starter in the AL next season and the best starter on our team.

Also, chuckle all you want at my future of the franchise comment but if its not Buehrle who is it?

Randar68
09-18-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I addressed your assertion when I referred to you having "premonitions". Your argument basically seems to be that you have a bad gut feeling about Buehrle starting in the playoffs.

Buehrle's walks are obviously up this season. He's not having his best season. However, unless you think that he's going to become worse ever season and that his first two seasons were a fluke, I don't see why his walks would continue to be a problem. Most pitchers don't master their control at 22 and then watch it decline.

Its true Buehrle doesn't have incredible stuff but neither does Jamie Moyer, Greg Maddux, or Tom Glavine and they all seem to get the job done without a lot of K's. Buehrle has pitched a number of outstanding games in his first three seasons with us and I'm not willing to give up on him because people think he's not a big game pitcher. As good of a pitcher as he is I don't see why he can't pitch well in important games and unimportant games.

One of the biggest problems here is, who are we going to replace Buehrle with if he leaves. No one appretiates him very much right now because this isn't his best season and we have Colon and Loaiza but reality check: Colon is gone after the season, we can't necessarily count on Loaiza to continue his dominance and if he does, he's most likely gone after next season. Buehrle is signed for three more seasons and will most likely be a top 10 starter in the AL next season and the best starter on our team.

Also, chuckle all you want at my future of the franchise comment but if its not Buehrle who is it?


I don't consider a guy who will post a 3.50-3.75 ERA an ACE.


'Future of the franchise?'

Carlos
Maggs
Crede
Olivo

Sorry, I don't consider a #2 or #3 pitcher the "future of the franchise"

Use that thing between the ole' ears.

spanishwhite
09-19-2003, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by daveeym
The Dodgers already dumped Konerko once I don't think they'll take him back.

He was a "prospect" when they had him. I dont remember who they traded him to the Reds for, but that is not a dump.

I thought an everyday ex-All Star 1b would be worth more value than a reliever. That would even out the fact that he is due 8 million.

We all know what Paulie is capable of, the problem is that he can't sustain it over a year.

LASOXFAN
09-19-2003, 01:14 AM
3 moves...and then some.

1. Sign Colon
2. Sign Tejada
3. Keep Carl at DH
4. put Rowand in CF (I love this guy)
5. Say adios to one Frank Thomas and Jose Valentin
6. Get whatever you can for Konerko and Koch.
7. Flash is heading to Tampa, make Marte the closer

jeremyb1
09-19-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't consider a guy who will post a 3.50-3.75 ERA an ACE.


'Future of the franchise?'

Carlos
Maggs
Crede
Olivo

Sorry, I don't consider a #2 or #3 pitcher the "future of the franchise"

Use that thing between the ole' ears.

There are 15 pitchers in the AL this season with an ERA under 4. Only 8 of them posted an ERA under three last season. It may not impress you but posting an ERA under 4 is quite hard to do. Three of those pitchers are on Oakland. I think that by definition there has to be more than 4 or 5 aces in the AL. If you don't want to call Buerhle an ace don't but by all measures he's been by far one of the best starters in the AL the past three seasons and I value that. Nothing against Crede and Olivo but they're well below average run producers for their position. Carlos will be 28 next season and Maggs will be 31. With his lack of plate discipline Carlos isn't much more than average for an outfielder. Buehrle is more of an exception for his position. Sadly, Maggs will be on the downside of his career in 3 to 4 seasons and it will cost around 15 million dollars per season to keep him around that long. He's an exceptional veteran but not a piece to build around.

Banix12
09-19-2003, 03:36 AM
I can't beleive how many people are ready to scrap the whole team. We got swept by the twins, it hurts (oh lord it hurts) but I still think we have a really good team here and you don't become a better team by getting rid of your best players because you think that they are going to go on a downward slide.

Buherle may not be an ace but he is still a damn good pitcher, especially as a #2. you won't find many better #2 starters and I say lets get what we can out of him while we still retain his rights. When it gets to his walk year then lets think about dumping him.

Also, I'm not exactly ready to give up on konerko yet. Look around the league, it's not exactly bursting with first base talent. And even with Konerko's horrible season there are far worse first basemen in the league who start more often. Unless we somehow got a deal ripping Richie Sexson off the Brewers i'd leave that position alone.

To anyone who wants to get rid of Ordonez and/or Lee... are you high or just incredibly stupid. You are not going to get anyone better than these two. Yes they are going to command a lot of money but they deserve it.

Crede started to turn it around in the end and he's playing a position that is a black hole around most of the league (remember how much Philadelphia payed David Bell)

Olivo will hit better and even if he doesn't it's a defensive position and he has a cannon arm.

The only changes i would prescribe are thus...

1. Forget about signing Robbie (he was nice to start with but is obviously no better than a part time player now) and try to trade for Fernando Vina. I'm sure the cardinals would rather keep Hart since he's a cheaper player and they would like to free up some money for pitching. Plus it would give us the lead-off man we've been missing since tim raines left

2a. If frank thomas goes...
keep Carl Everett as the DH. I love Thomas. I have a lot of great memories of him in his prime but a lot of recent memories of him popping up with runners in scoring position. fourty homeruns are nice but what this team needs more are people like everett who know how to put the ball in play and move the runners along. Sure we could keep everett in center and thomas at DH but honestly i don't want to see a whole everett season in CF.

2b. if frank thomas stays...
play frank occasionally at first base (once or twice a week, never on astroturf) just to see if he hits better over a whole season. Paulie plays the rest of the week. Keep carl and hope nobody hits it too hard to center.

3. Try to resign Colon. If we can't, try to get another innings eater like a Livan Hernandez. We had good pitching this year and it would be smart to keep it in tact. The starters weren't the problem on the team, it was the bullpen

4. I'm not exactly sure on this one but i think it might be a good time to replace Valentin. I love his attitude and he does hit a lot of homeruns from the shortstop position but i'm getting sick of that .220 average and he is no more than a platoon player these days. Only resign him if he comes cheap. Tejada would be a pipe dream but there are some good .avg hitters out there for the taking.

5. Since no team will be willing to take Koch of our hands (possibly the phillies, they seem to have this unnatural attraction to lousy closers) give him a shot in spring training and if his velocity isn't back release him.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Banix12
I can't beleive how many people are ready to scrap the whole team. We got swept by the twins, it hurts (oh lord it hurts) but I still think we have a really good team here and you don't become a better team by getting rid of your best players because you think that they are going to go on a downward slide.

Buherle may not be an ace but he is still a damn good pitcher, especially as a #2. you won't find many better #2 starters and I say lets get what we can out of him while we still retain his rights. When it gets to his walk year then lets think about dumping him.

Also, I'm not exactly ready to give up on konerko yet. Look around the league, it's not exactly bursting with first base talent. And even with Konerko's horrible season there are far worse first basemen in the league who start more often. Unless we somehow got a deal ripping Richie Sexson off the Brewers i'd leave that position alone.

To anyone who wants to get rid of Ordonez and/or Lee... are you high or just incredibly stupid. You are not going to get anyone better than these two. Yes they are going to command a lot of money but they deserve it.

Crede started to turn it around in the end and he's playing a position that is a black hole around most of the league (remember how much Philadelphia payed David Bell)

Olivo will hit better and even if he doesn't it's a defensive position and he has a cannon arm.

The only changes i would prescribe are thus...

1. Forget about signing Robbie (he was nice to start with but is obviously no better than a part time player now) and try to trade for Fernando Vina. I'm sure the cardinals would rather keep Hart since he's a cheaper player and they would like to free up some money for pitching. Plus it would give us the lead-off man we've been missing since tim raines left

2a. If frank thomas goes...
keep Carl Everett as the DH. I love Thomas. I have a lot of great memories of him in his prime but a lot of recent memories of him popping up with runners in scoring position. fourty homeruns are nice but what this team needs more are people like everett who know how to put the ball in play and move the runners along. Sure we could keep everett in center and thomas at DH but honestly i don't want to see a whole everett season in CF.

2b. if frank thomas stays...
play frank occasionally at first base (once or twice a week, never on astroturf) just to see if he hits better over a whole season. Paulie plays the rest of the week. Keep carl and hope nobody hits it too hard to center.

3. Try to resign Colon. If we can't, try to get another innings eater like a Livan Hernandez. We had good pitching this year and it would be smart to keep it in tact. The starters weren't the problem on the team, it was the bullpen

4. I'm not exactly sure on this one but i think it might be a good time to replace Valentin. I love his attitude and he does hit a lot of homeruns from the shortstop position but i'm getting sick of that .220 average and he is no more than a platoon player these days. Only resign him if he comes cheap. Tejada would be a pipe dream but there are some good .avg hitters out there for the taking.

5. Since no team will be willing to take Koch of our hands (possibly the phillies, they seem to have this unnatural attraction to lousy closers) give him a shot in spring training and if his velocity isn't back release him.




I agree with most. However, I'd let Carl walk and put Reed out there. The Sox need more OBP guys and some guys with better speed. Needing 4 singles to score one run is a pathetic indictment of a team's baserunning skills. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times this season the Sox had 3 singles in an inning and didn't score.

Randar68
09-19-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
There are 15 pitchers in the AL this season with an ERA under 4. Only 8 of them posted an ERA under three last season. It may not impress you but posting an ERA under 4 is quite hard to do. Three of those pitchers are on Oakland. I think that by definition there has to be more than 4 or 5 aces in the AL. If you don't want to call Buerhle an ace don't but by all measures he's been by far one of the best starters in the AL the past three seasons and I value that.

Ok. One at a time. Leading your team in ERA or having a top 10 ERA in 2 straight seasons does not an Ace make. I do believe there are only 4 or 5 "Ace's" in each league; that is why they are so valuable. MB is a very good #2 or #3 pitcher on a contender. He is a #1 pitcher on an also-ran.

You also failed to point me to the major flaw that Buerhle will magically correct to become this long-awaited ace.


Originally posted by jeremyb1
With his lack of plate discipline Carlos isn't much more than average for an outfielder. Buehrle is more of an exception for his position. Sadly, Maggs will be on the downside of his career in 3 to 4 seasons and it will cost around 15 million dollars per season to keep him around that long. He's an exceptional veteran but not a piece to build around.

Name me 5 LF'ers in each league better than Carlos Lee. You can't do it, but he is "average?" .300-30-100 is average??? In what world? He's hitting .342 with an OPS of almost 1.000 since the All-Star break! He's been the only consistent run-producer or RBI guy on this team all year. Take your head out of your math book.


Originally posted by jeremyb1
Nothing against Crede and Olivo but they're well below average run producers for their position. Carlos will be 28 next season and Maggs will be 31.

Two players who are at the top of their positions defensively in their first full seasons in the major leagues. Jesus CHRIST! Do you even know what the word patience means? Crede's had a hard time adjusting the first half, but he's hit .313-11-30 in 207 PA's since the All-star break hitting at the bottom of the order. Over that period, his OPS is over .900.

We've been clamoring for a 3B who can play D since Ventura left. Here is one who has the potential to annually be in the .280-25-80 range (low end of his potential, IMO), and you're minimizing his future contributions???

Paulwny
09-19-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
[B

We've been clamoring for a 3B who can play D since Ventura left. Here is one who has the potential to annually be in the .280-25-80 range (low end of his potential, IMO), and you're minimizing his future contributions??? [/B]

Yep,I'm very impressed with Crede since the AS break, the guy's a keeper.

soxruleEP
09-19-2003, 12:21 PM
Many thoughtful responses here--my two cents:

1. Valentine must go. We may be stuck with him though because of option based on games played.

2. Keep Carl--he will sign for a lot less and if someone wants to pay him, okay. Spot him in OF and DH.

3. Rowand is #4 outfielder. Keep him there.

4. Lee and Ordonez: name a better lf/rf combo in the league.

5. See what you can get for Konerko. A solid infielder might be nice.

6. Spend some money: Sign Tejada and Colon. Sign Colon now before Steinbrenner gets involved because he will get some ptichers to take Wells and Clemens spots.

7. You must keep Buerhle. Solid starters don't grow on trees.

8. Give Garland one last chance to grow a pair. If he can't get a third strike or third out send him somewhere else. he's been in the bigs four years.

9. Crede and Oliva will be okay. There are not a lot of good 3rd basemen in the history of baseball, let alone in the game right now. Aside from Koskie and Chavez, who's better than Crede? (even allowing for Bill Mueller Boston line-up effect)

10. Pray Koch returns to a shadow of his former self.

11. Willie Harris learns to hit or he is gone.

12. Plan on a rookie centerfielder.

thepaulbowski
09-19-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
Give Garland one last chance to grow a pair. If he can't get a third strike or third out send him somewhere else. he's been in the bigs four years.

What?!?! With all the progress he made this year? He's only 23-24 years old, remember that. He's goning to be a solid starter in years to come.

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
Many thoughtful responses here--my two cents:

1. Valentine must go. We may be stuck with him though because of option based on games played.
All depends on Contract...Jose at 2 million per is not a bad decesion
2. Keep Carl--he will sign for a lot less and if someone wants to pay him, okay. Spot him in OF and DH.
Sign for Less? Based on what? I haven't seen word one about Carl looking to resign here...especially for a big price break. And that assumes you can move Konerko, if you can't then you don't have muhc flexibility and resigning Carl limits your leverage in dealing Paulie, which is limited as is. Carl is gone

3. Rowand is #4 outfielder. Keep him there.

Agreed

4. Lee and Ordonez: name a better lf/rf combo in the league.
Good Point...But for 20+ Million a year

5. See what you can get for Konerko. A solid infielder might be nice.
A new hat for PHG would be nice

6. Spend some money: Sign Tejada and Colon. Sign Colon now before Steinbrenner gets involved because he will get some ptichers to take Wells and Clemens spots.

Spend money wisely...Don't spend for the sake of spending
7. You must keep Buerhle. Solid starters don't grow on trees.
Agreed with reservations. If the award comes back huge and you can get something of value for him, you have to consider dealing him with all the uncertanity. Thrown alot of pitches at a young age and the contract is ever looming like the Sword of Damocles over the Sox Heads

8. Give Garland one last chance to grow a pair. If he can't get a third strike or third out send him somewhere else. he's been in the bigs four years.
He's been pretty good this year....Good starters don't grow on trees or something like that?

9. Crede and Oliva will be okay. There are not a lot of good 3rd basemen in the history of baseball, let alone in the game right now. Aside from Koskie and Chavez, who's better than Crede? (even allowing for Bill Mueller Boston line-up effect)
I like both Olivo and Crede as well....and the price is right

10. Pray Koch returns to a shadow of his former self.

Only hope here....would be nice since you could move Marte to the rotation as well

11. Willie Harris learns to hit or he is gone.

His role IMO has always been utiliy guy/speed/defense ...What has changed? He makes peanuts

12. Plan on a rookie centerfielder.
Reed or Borchard...with no Crazy Carl or Paulie....maybe both

RichH55
09-19-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Banix12
I can't beleive how many people are ready to scrap the whole team. We got swept by the twins, it hurts (oh lord it hurts) but I still think we have a really good team here and you don't become a better team by getting rid of your best players because you think that they are going to go on a downward slide.

Buherle may not be an ace but he is still a damn good pitcher, especially as a #2. you won't find many better #2 starters and I say lets get what we can out of him while we still retain his rights. When it gets to his walk year then lets think about dumping him.

Also, I'm not exactly ready to give up on konerko yet. Look around the league, it's not exactly bursting with first base talent. And even with Konerko's horrible season there are far worse first basemen in the league who start more often. Unless we somehow got a deal ripping Richie Sexson off the Brewers i'd leave that position alone.

To anyone who wants to get rid of Ordonez and/or Lee... are you high or just incredibly stupid. You are not going to get anyone better than these two. Yes they are going to command a lot of money but they deserve it.

Crede started to turn it around in the end and he's playing a position that is a black hole around most of the league (remember how much Philadelphia payed David Bell)

Olivo will hit better and even if he doesn't it's a defensive position and he has a cannon arm.

The only changes i would prescribe are thus...

1. Forget about signing Robbie (he was nice to start with but is obviously no better than a part time player now) and try to trade for Fernando Vina. I'm sure the cardinals would rather keep Hart since he's a cheaper player and they would like to free up some money for pitching. Plus it would give us the lead-off man we've been missing since tim raines left

2a. If frank thomas goes...
keep Carl Everett as the DH. I love Thomas. I have a lot of great memories of him in his prime but a lot of recent memories of him popping up with runners in scoring position. fourty homeruns are nice but what this team needs more are people like everett who know how to put the ball in play and move the runners along. Sure we could keep everett in center and thomas at DH but honestly i don't want to see a whole everett season in CF.

2b. if frank thomas stays...
play frank occasionally at first base (once or twice a week, never on astroturf) just to see if he hits better over a whole season. Paulie plays the rest of the week. Keep carl and hope nobody hits it too hard to center.

3. Try to resign Colon. If we can't, try to get another innings eater like a Livan Hernandez. We had good pitching this year and it would be smart to keep it in tact. The starters weren't the problem on the team, it was the bullpen

4. I'm not exactly sure on this one but i think it might be a good time to replace Valentin. I love his attitude and he does hit a lot of homeruns from the shortstop position but i'm getting sick of that .220 average and he is no more than a platoon player these days. Only resign him if he comes cheap. Tejada would be a pipe dream but there are some good .avg hitters out there for the taking.

5. Since no team will be willing to take Koch of our hands (possibly the phillies, they seem to have this unnatural attraction to lousy closers) give him a shot in spring training and if his velocity isn't back release him.

I'm pretty sure Vina is a FA, so no need to trade...could be wrong though.

Why release Koch...you would still have to pay him, so you might as well ride it out and hope to get something out of your investment

So Frank hits homeruns and gets on base...But doesn't hit as well as Crazy Carl? I'm confused

akingamongstmen
09-19-2003, 04:08 PM
I really think that we've got a good core here...

I've said it before, I've got a really good feeling about Olivo.

Crede is gonna be a good 3rd baseman for a long time.

Carlos and Maggs are a powerful combo (but, admitedly, overpaid).

Marte is lights out in the bullpen.

Buerhle and Garland are still VERY young and are already solid pitchers. Other teams would kill for these guys.

Colon is a stud (despite yesterday's disappointment), and we need to resign him.

Plus, we've got a lot of talent in the minors (Reed, Honel, Rauch, etc.) that could step in next year to help.

I think with a more consistent SS (sorry Jose...leave, and take your mustache with you), and a better defensive CF that we could be a good team for a long time.

Banix12
09-20-2003, 02:39 PM
The reason i feel I would rather have Everett than Frank is because Everett seems to be better at moving the runners into scoring position and he isn't a logjam on the basepaths like Frank. Also he seems to hit a little more consistently.

As for releasing Koch, If he hasn't regained his stuff (i would be willing to cart him out of the bullpen to the mound the first month of next season just to see if he has regained an abiltity to get outs) i would rather pay him not to play for us. What good is it having a guy around to pitch when you can barely trust him when you have a four run lead. It's a shame we signed him to that contract extention in the first place

soxtalker
09-20-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Banix12
The reason i feel I would rather have Everett than Frank is because Everett seems to be better at moving the runners into scoring position and he isn't a logjam on the basepaths like Frank. Also he seems to hit a little more consistently.

As for releasing Koch, If he hasn't regained his stuff (i would be willing to cart him out of the bullpen to the mound the first month of next season just to see if he has regained an abiltity to get outs) i would rather pay him not to play for us. What good is it having a guy around to pitch when you can barely trust him when you have a four run lead. It's a shame we signed him to that contract extention in the first place

Does Koch have to take up a roster position in the majors, or can he be sent to the minors for an extended basis? I know that he did go down for awhile, but I that may have been for a rehab assignment, which I think is a special designation. If he can be sent down, I'd rather see if he can work out his problems there.

If we release him, and he subsequently signs with another team, I think that we have to pay the bulk of his salary.

As an aside, I believe that it is different with a manager. If someone picks up Manuel, I think that we're off the hook. (The difference may simply be that we don't have any roster requirements for a manager.)

Those are guesses, so please comment if you're more knowledgeable about the rules.

MisterB
09-20-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I'm pretty sure Vina is a FA, so no need to trade...could be wrong though.

The Cards hold a $4.5M option on Vina for next year, or they can buy it out for $1M.

RichH55
09-20-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
The Cards hold a $4.5M option on Vina for next year, or they can buy it out for $1M.

SO he's a FA:)

RichH55
09-20-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Banix12
The reason i feel I would rather have Everett than Frank is because Everett seems to be better at moving the runners into scoring position and he isn't a logjam on the basepaths like Frank. Also he seems to hit a little more consistently.

As for releasing Koch, If he hasn't regained his stuff (i would be willing to cart him out of the bullpen to the mound the first month of next season just to see if he has regained an abiltity to get outs) i would rather pay him not to play for us. What good is it having a guy around to pitch when you can barely trust him when you have a four run lead. It's a shame we signed him to that contract extention in the first place

Logjam? Case in point-> Frank last night gets a double by legging it out, just good good baserunning

Carl--> How's the Knee, How's the knee....Contract Year mean anything to you?>

jeremyb1
09-20-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ok. One at a time. Leading your team in ERA or having a top 10 ERA in 2 straight seasons does not an Ace make. I do believe there are only 4 or 5 "Ace's" in each league; that is why they are so valuable. MB is a very good #2 or #3 pitcher on a contender. He is a #1 pitcher on an also-ran.

You also failed to point me to the major flaw that Buerhle will magically correct to become this long-awaited ace.

Name me 5 LF'ers in each league better than Carlos Lee. You can't do it, but he is "average?" .300-30-100 is average??? In what world? He's hitting .342 with an OPS of almost 1.000 since the All-Star break! He's been the only consistent run-producer or RBI guy on this team all year. Take your head out of your math book

Two players who are at the top of their positions defensively in their first full seasons in the major leagues. Jesus CHRIST! Do you even know what the word patience means? Crede's had a hard time adjusting the first half, but he's hit .313-11-30 in 207 PA's since the All-star break hitting at the bottom of the order. Over that period, his OPS is over .900.

We've been clamoring for a 3B who can play D since Ventura left. Here is one who has the potential to annually be in the .280-25-80 range (low end of his potential, IMO), and you're minimizing his future contributions???

I guess we disagree on the definition of an ace. I don't really see how there can only be 8 aces in baseball when there are nearly four times as many teams. Also, some teams have multiple aces such as the D-Backs and Oakland. An ace is a teams best pitcher. Obviously every team's best pitchers isn't automatically an ace but there are a lot of good pitchers in baseball. It seems an odd notion to me that 3/4ths of the teams in baseball don't have an ace. I agree Buehrle isn't one of the top 4 pitchers in the AL but he's in the top ten as far as performance over the past three seasons.

As far as Carlos, its unfair to compare him to only leftfielders. He shouldn't be rewarded for playing the least difficult outfield position. He should be compared with center fielders and right fielders too who could certainly play left field. Carlos is in the upper third of outfielders in the league in terms of production (9th in OPS) which is good but Buehrle is probably in the upper fifth of starters in the AL and he's 3 years younger.

I'm not trying to rag on Crede but you're telling me to be patient and let him develop while saying there's no hope for Buehrle who's younger than Crede is. How is one of the top 10 starters in the AL less of a piece for the future than a promising, but so far not particularly productive 3B?

WinningUgly!
09-20-2003, 10:00 PM
Sign free agent Keith Foulke.

Randar68
09-20-2003, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I guess we disagree on the definition of an ace. I don't really see how there can only be 8 aces in baseball when there are nearly four times as many teams.

Because you consider an ace, someone who starts on opening day for their team.


IMO, an Ace is someone capable of going out and winning games on his own. 1-0, 2-1...

Nobody on the Sox has been capable of that since maybe BlackJack.