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LASOXFAN
09-17-2003, 11:48 PM
How do you like these numbers in the last four losses against the Twins:

Thomas 3/16 = .187
Konerko 2/12 = .166
Valentin 2/13 = .153

To say I'm done cheering for these three is putting it mildly.

Way to show up when it counts. Hell, I'm happy with the pitching. The Twins haven't blown us out. So they scored 5 last night and 4 tonight. We average more than that! All you worshipers of Thomas can just chill - the numbers don't lie.

And don't hang this one on Loiza or Garland or the pen (which played great tonight).

Hang this one on a trio of losers. I wish we could see Daubach at first, Graf at short, Rowand in center and Carl DH'ing tomorrow. It won't happen.

And this is coming from a man who still believes that we can win this thing!

bc2k
09-18-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
How do you like these numbers in the last four losses against the Twins:

Thomas 3/16 = .187
Konerko 2/12 = .166
Valentin 2/13 = .153

To say I'm done cheering for these three is putting it mildly.

Way to show up when it counts. Hell, I'm happy with the pitching. The Twins haven't blown us out. So they scored 5 last night and 4 tonight. We average more than that! All you worshipers of Thomas can just chill - the numbers don't lie.

And don't hang this one on Loiza or Garland or the pen (which played great tonight).

Hang this one on a trio of losers. I wish we could see Daubach at first, Graf at short, Rowand in center and Carl DH'ing tomorrow. It won't happen.

And this is coming from a man who still believes that we can win this thing!

Bad week for Graffanino. He has to leave one funeral to return to another. Thomas, Valentin, and Konerko look to be the pall bearers.

LASOXFAN
09-18-2003, 12:29 AM
I posted this thread but the truth is I'm just pissed. I'm a big fan of these three guys and to watch them gag when this team needed them most is so disappointing. If anybody should be coming through it should be these three. They've known the heartache of 2000 and how hard it's been these last two years to get back to this point.

So I vented. Now, I'm getting ready to :gulp:

lowesox
09-18-2003, 01:04 AM
I was going to jump all over your initial post, but I can't blame you for venting. It's tough to take. But I guess all we can do is keep watching and hope for something special.

It's worth remembering that if the sox can win tomorrow's game and there game in hand, they'd only be 1 game back. Of course making up ground with the schedule the way it is, is unlikely.

Jerko
09-18-2003, 11:04 AM
That's not fair to Valentin. He was "forced" to bat right handed.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
How do you like these numbers in the last four losses against the Twins:

Thomas 3/16 = .187
Konerko 2/12 = .166
Valentin 2/13 = .153

....

Hey LA, I'm down with ya on your criticism of Konerko and Valentin. They've both been disappointments, and given his outrageous salary, Konerko will be especially damaging to this ballclub's chances of keeping the talented ballplayers within the chairman's payroll restrictions.

However, I can't help but ask this question...

Is it fair to piss on Frank Thomas--or any ballplayer, for that matter--who is so obviously being played out of position by his manager? We have FIVE YEARS of empirical data that proves Frank hits better when playing first base. (I'm not even counting 2001 which Frank mostly missed due to injury). His downfall as a perrennial MVP candidate perfectly coincides with the arrival of Jerry Manuel as Sox manager in 1998. Who ultimately is accountable for this situation, Frank or Jerry?

Even this season when Frank openly expressed interest in playing first base, Manuel rejected the idea out of hand. The problems Jerry Manuel has managing a ballclub are too numerous to recount here, but with his ouster never more imminent, why would you give up on Frank Thomas now--especially at a bargain $6 million salary? We're paying Konerko more than that (on a long-term contract, too) to completely suck.

:?: :?: :?:

cheeses_h_rice
09-18-2003, 12:05 PM
George, I think you're forgetting that Frank WANTED to be a DH for a while there -- I think he made these comments in '99 or '01.

Also, yes, stats bear out Frank being a more effective hitter when he also plays first base. We can argue that 'til the cows come home.

But Frank is a professional hitter, more than anything. Isn't it fair to place a lot of the blame for his ineffectiveness in crucial games on Frank himself? Jerry Manuel's not the one out there flailing away and popping out, is he?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
George, I think you're forgetting that Frank WANTED to be a DH for a while there -- I think he made these comments in '99 or '01.

Also, yes, stats bear out Frank being a more effective hitter when he also plays first base. We can argue that 'til the cows come home.

But Frank is a professional hitter, more than anything. Isn't it fair to place a lot of the blame for his ineffectiveness in crucial games on Frank himself? Jerry Manuel's not the one out there flailing away and popping out, is he?

Well sure... Frank has in the past stated he prefers DH, but what point does that make? If he hits better at 1B, and he has clearly expressed he wants to play first base, what reason beyond sheer bullheadedness can Manuel offer for denying the request? It's not as though Paul Konerko has been lighting up the American League, has it?

I'm sorry... until Frank "flails away popping out" while playing first base, he has earned the benefit of the doubt from me. He doesn't fill out the lineup cards, and any reasonable person knows he hits better at 1B. It's not even debatable anymore...

:jerry
"Anybody who disagrees with me just doesn't understand baseball."

twang---------------------------------> thump.

JC456
09-18-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey LA, I'm down with ya on your criticism of Konerko and Valentin. They've both been disappointments, and given his outrageous salary, Konerko will be especially damaging to this ballclub's chances of keeping the talented ballplayers within the chairman's payroll restrictions.

However, I can't help but ask this question...

Is it fair to piss on Frank Thomas--or any ballplayer, for that matter--who is so obviously being played out of position by his manager? We have FIVE YEARS of empirical data that proves Frank hits better when playing first base. (I'm not even counting 2001 which Frank mostly missed due to injury). His downfall as a perrennial MVP candidate perfectly coincides with the arrival of Jerry Manuel as Sox manager in 1998. Who ultimately is accountable for this situation, Frank or Jerry?

Even this season when Frank openly expressed interest in playing first base, Manuel rejected the idea out of hand. The problems Jerry Manuel has managing a ballclub are too numerous to recount here, but with his ouster never more imminent, why would you give up on Frank Thomas now--especially at a bargain $6 million salary? We're paying Konerko more than that (on a long-term contract, too) to completely suck.

:?: :?: :?:

So you're giving Frank a pass on playing poorly at the plate, because he isn't playing first base? You're a nice guy. Hey don't worrying about producing for the team because you're not playing in the field. Poor baby!!!!! :whiner:

HA Ha Ha. Pleassse. Save us from your love for the guy and anything is acceptable as long as it is someone's else's fault feelings. It's a team game and he is expected to be a part and if that part is he is DH, well too dam.n bad. Hit the frigging ball when you're expected to. That's his job, that is the reason he is still on this team. Not because he might be able to play first base, and I say might, because your argument as good as you may feel it is, is only one sided. What is the difference in runs allowed when he plays first base vs when he doesn't? Maybe it's a wash and the whole first base thing is for cr.ap. Get over it and root for the guy to produce as he is expected to and quite crying about something you, nor he has control of.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by JC456
So you're giving Frank a pass on playing poorly at the plate, because he isn't playing first base? You're a nice guy....

Nice? Hardly. Dealing with reality? You betcha.

The first time Thomas fills out his own lineup card, go right ahead and bitch the first time he pops out, swings his ass out on an inside strike, or generally does something to annoy you. Until that time...

Perennial MVP candidate until 1998 --------------> :hurt

New Sox manager, 1998 -------------------------> :jerry

:jerry
"I can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Frank back at first base."

I wonder if Jerry considers his own job security enough of an "emergency" to play Frank at 1B tonight? What do you think, JC?

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by JC456
So you're giving Frank a pass on playing poorly at the plate, because he isn't playing first base? You're a nice guy. Hey don't worrying about producing for the team because you're not playing in the field. Poor baby!!!!! :whiner:

HA Ha Ha. Pleassse. Save us from your love for the guy and anything is acceptable as long as it is someone's else's fault feelings. It's a team game and he is expected to be a part and if that part is he is DH, well too dam.n bad. Hit the frigging ball when you're expected to. That's his job, that is the reason he is still on this team. Not because he might be able to play first base, and I say might, because your argument as good as you may feel it is, is only one sided. What is the difference in runs allowed when he plays first base vs when he doesn't? Maybe it's a wash and the whole first base thing is for cr.ap. Get over it and root for the guy to produce as he is expected to and quite crying about something you, nor he has control of.

No one gets a pass for playing poorly, but if you have a player who performs far better under certain conditions (i.e. Frank playing at 1B instead of DH) then it is in the best interests of the team to play that player there.

I mean, isn't that the goal? You put the best team on the field for over all effectiveness. Isn't that the manager's job? How will we know if Frank's defense is so poor at 1B that it counteracts all of the extra offense he brings to the table. Certainly you can't think that Paul Konerko isn't so stunning at 1B that the team couldn't afford to give it a try or maybe I am blind.

Beyond all of that, maybe you need to look at the stats for the whole year and decide if Frank is worthy of the venom you dump on him in this post.

In addition, as PHG has stated before numerous times, Frank wouldn't be the first guy to perform better at the plate because of seemingly unrelated reasons. You can call Frank a baby all you want, but it doesn't mean anything. Do you want the best possible team or do you want to prove you are right? I know what I want...

Finally, crap and damn are not banned words, so you don't need to go through the motions of trying to evade the language filters. However, please don't do it with their harder 4-letter friends...

Bobby Thigpen
09-18-2003, 01:06 PM
George, I'm sorry but your blatant love affair with Frank is going a little too far this time. NO manager is going to play Frank at first base more than 20- 30 times a year. If he is such a viable option at first, then whey were NO National League teams after him in the offseason? Everyone I've heard in baseball has said that Frank is pretty much done as a hitter as well. Is putting him at first going to improve his bat speed, or the fact that he has become, by his own admittance, a swing for the fences slugger in the mold of the despised Sammy Sosa?

I don't care what his stats say, Frank over the long run is not going to be the same player at first that he was in 1998. He is declining and his defensive liabilities outweigh any small increases he may make on the offensive side. Yes he did get in a hot streak when playing there earlier this year, but he also had a few hot streaks as a DH. Putting him at first is not the solution. In fact over the long haul it would be more of a problem than it would be a solution. THIS IS NOT SOME CONSPIRACY BY JERRY TO HURT FRANK.

By the way, happy birthday.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
George, I'm sorry but your blatant love affair with Frank is going a little too far this time. NO manager is going to play Frank at first base more than 20- 30 times a year. If he is such a viable option at first, then whey were NO National League teams after him in the offseason? Everyone I've heard in baseball has said that Frank is pretty much done as a hitter as well. Is putting him at first going to improve his bat speed, or the fact that he has become, by his own admittance, a swing for the fences slugger in the mold of the despised Sammy Sosa?

I don't care what his stats say, Frank over the long run is not going to be the same player at first that he was in 1998. He is declining and his defensive liabilities outweigh any small increases he may make on the offensive side. Yes he did get in a hot streak when playing there earlier this year, but he also had a few hot streaks as a DH. Putting him at first is not the solution. In fact over the long haul it would be more of a problem than it would be a solution. THIS IS NOT SOME CONSPIRACY BY JERRY TO HURT FRANK.

By the way, happy birthday.

Well, if Frank is through as a hitter, we ought to start backing up the truck. He has the highest OPS of any ballplayer on the team. The only exception is Magglio Ordonez and he gets paid OVER TWICE THE SALARY of Thomas. I notice he gets to play RF on a regular basis too, though Jerry's CF experiment was quite the bust, don't you think? Any lessons to be drawn here?

Facts are stubborn things...

Oh, and thank you for the birthday wishes. I'm having deep dish pizza tonight. (Please note I didn't call it "Chicago-style" :smile: .)

JC456
09-18-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Nice? Hardly. Dealing with reality? You betcha.

The first time Thomas fills out his own lineup card, go right ahead and bitch the first time he pops out, swings his ass out on an inside strike, or generally does something to annoy you. Until that time...

Perennial MVP candidate until 1998 --------------> :hurt

New Sox manager, 1998 -------------------------> :jerry

:jerry
"I can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Frank back at first base."

I wonder if Jerry considers his own job security enough of an "emergency" to play Frank at 1B tonight? What do you think, JC?

Well you are giving Thomas a pass. You can say it anyway you want, you are. You do not hold him responsible for leaving runners in scoring position or doubling up runners to end a threat. Nope you blame Manuel. It's Manuel's fault for filling out the line up card. HA again. I think Manuel is the worst manager I've have had to watch since the Bevinton years, yet the Sox are in it this year even with his negligence. If one or two key Sox players could only do their jobs we'd be in a better position than today. But they are still in a position to win. Put your poor Frank pity towel away and expect him to perform for the team and not for Frank. See that is the problem with Frank, it is always about Frank. Well Frank schmank, do your frigging job and let's win this dam.n thing.

If Manuel puts Frank at first I hope it's because he wants his defense to be as good as it can possibly be, because, in a pennant race pitching and defense are bigger than hitting. I will agree with whatever JM decides. All I know is I don't want to see Daubach again. He has done nothing. He is another one who uses playing time to get at bats rather than accept his at bats he gets and make the most out of them. Maybe he should strike out one more time for fun, ey?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Well you are giving Thomas a pass. You can say it anyway you want, you are. You do not hold him responsible for leaving runners in scoring position or doubling up runners to end a threat. Nope you blame Manuel. It's Manuel's fault for filling out the line up card. HA again. I think Manuel is the worst manager I've have had to watch since the Bevinton years, yet the Sox are in it this year even with his negligence. If one or two key Sox players could only do their jobs we'd be in a better position than today. But they are still in a position to win. Put your poor Frank pity towel away and expect him to perform for the team and not for Frank. See that is the problem with Frank, it is always about Frank. Well Frank schmank, do your frigging job and let's win this dam.n thing.

If Manuel puts Frank at first I hope it's because he wants his defense to be as good as it can possibly be, because, in a pennant race pitching and defense are bigger than hitting. I will agree with whatever JM decides. All I know is I don't want to see Daubach again. He has done nothing. He is another one who uses playing time to get at bats rather than accept his at bats he gets and make the most out of them. Maybe he should strike out one more time for fun, ey?

Actually, I'm not giving JERRY MANUEL a pass. I specifically referred to his BULLHEADEDNESS as the reason we still haven't seen Frank at 1B since he went on a hitting tear last spring. I would be the first to join the critics of Thomas if there was any rhyme or reason to what Jerry Manuel has done to completely destroy the Sox offense this season, but I simply can't. It's not his fault that this stubborn bullheaded idiot won't field the best lineup (by his OWN ADMISSION for the entire first-half) to help this team win.

MVP candidates don't grow on trees. Jerry Manuel ought to be smart enough to know this. After six painful years, clearly he isn't.

:angry:

shane
09-18-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by JC456
So you're giving Frank a pass on playing poorly at the plate, because he isn't playing first base? You're a nice guy. Hey don't worrying about producing for the team because you're not playing in the field. Poor baby!!!!! :whiner:

HA Ha Ha. Pleassse. Save us from your love for the guy and anything is acceptable as long as it is someone's else's fault feelings. It's a team game and he is expected to be a part and if that part is he is DH, well too dam.n bad. Hit the frigging ball when you're expected to. That's his job, that is the reason he is still on this team. Not because he might be able to play first base, and I say might, because your argument as good as you may feel it is, is only one sided. What is the difference in runs allowed when he plays first base vs when he doesn't? Maybe it's a wash and the whole first base thing is for cr.ap. Get over it and root for the guy to produce as he is expected to and quite crying about something you, nor he has control of.

So what about Konerko? He's worthless. If the data backs up Frank hitting better at first, it's got nothing to do with Frank whining. It's got to do with a manager that has no balls, er, I mean brains. It's not like Konerko is producing and getting hits when he is EXPECTED to. What's the loss with Konerko on the bench and Frank at 1st? The team has a manager, you know. Maybe he could do his job when he is EXPECTED to.

JC456
09-18-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No one gets a pass for playing poorly, but if you have a player who performs far better under certain conditions (i.e. Frank playing at 1B instead of DH) then it is in the best interests of the team to play that player there.

I mean, isn't that the goal? You put the best team on the field for over all effectiveness. Isn't that the manager's job? How will we know if Frank's defense is so poor at 1B that it counteracts all of the extra offense he brings to the table. Certainly you can't think that Paul Konerko isn't so stunning at 1B that the team couldn't afford to give it a try or maybe I am blind.

Beyond all of that, maybe you need to look at the stats for the whole year and decide if Frank is worthy of the venom you dump on him in this post.

In addition, as PHG has stated before numerous times, Frank wouldn't be the first guy to perform better at the plate because of seemingly unrelated reasons. You can call Frank a baby all you want, but it doesn't mean anything. Do you want the best possible team or do you want to prove you are right? I know what I want...

Finally, crap and damn are not banned words, so you don't need to go through the motions of trying to evade the language filters. However, please don't do it with their harder 4-letter friends...

I just want to know if you think Frank is a better defender than Konerko or Daubach?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by JC456
I just want to know if you think Frank is a better defender than Konerko or Daubach?

Omigod... it's the better-defensive-firstbasemen argument again! Konerko gives away 200 points of OPS--but he makes it up with his superior throwing arm... at first base!

Mike Squires for Sox MVP! :smile:

That's it. I'm out.

daveeym
09-18-2003, 01:42 PM
Oh whatever the Big Skirt is pouting and purposely blowing this thing to get Manuel fired.

Bobby Thigpen
09-18-2003, 01:42 PM
George, putting Frank at first is not going to solve every problem in the world.

My statement that Frank is done is based on this thinking. His bat speed is WAY down in the last two years. He has essentially became a guess hitter. What happens is everyone realizes that you can pitch him inside or out because he is only aiming for the ball to be one of those two places. When he is on it's because he's guessing correctly at the fact that their trying to pitch him inside or out again. He continues to go on this hot streak until everyone's scouting report reflects that he is looking in or out and then they just start pitching him either away or in. It's going to be a cyclical thing. This is why he has become an amazingly streaky hitter. His natural skills no longer allow him to adjust to the pitch, (hence his decline in BA) so now he is just looking for one pitch to hit. PUTTING HIM AT FIRST BASE IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.

I've heard this several times and initially thought it was a bunch of crap. After watching Frank this year I believe it is true.

Edit- By the way this is not a Frank vs. Konerko or Daubach argument for me. This years stats make it hard for me to state any case for Pauly. I like the guy, but yes he is terrible right now and was terrible to start the year. Frank's stats are much better. My argument is that putting him at first is not the problem with his offensive woes at the time. This isn't Jerry's fault. Playing a position doesn't change bat speed.

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by JC456
I just want to know if you think Frank is a better defender than Konerko or Daubach?

Um, no, but he isn't so much worse that it justifys making him the DH, IMO.

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Oh whatever the Big Hurt is pouting and purposely blowing this thing to get Manuel fired.

Whatever it takes. Can we leave the trollish flubbie fan nicknames to the flubbie trolls?

JC456
09-18-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Um, no, but he isn't so much worse that it justifys making him the DH, IMO.

Well someone with the authority thinks it does. And so do I.

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Well someone with the authority thinks it does. And so do I.

That somebody is Jerry Manuel. You a JM backer? I'm surprised there are any left...

JC456
09-18-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Omigod... it's the better-defensive-firstbasemen argument again! Konerko gives away 200 points of OPS--but he makes it up with his superior throwing arm... at first base!

Mike Squires for Sox MVP! :smile:

That's it. I'm out.

Just can't admit that Frank isn't doing his job, can you? That is the Frank syndrome.

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Just can't admit that Frank isn't doing his job, can you? That is the Frank syndrome.

Has Frank struggled in September? Sure, but check out the stats for the year and then start griping. You haters get more ridiculous with every passing day.

JC456
09-18-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
George, putting Frank at first is not going to solve every problem in the world.

My statement that Frank is done is based on this thinking. His bat speed is WAY down in the last two years. He has essentially became a guess hitter. What happens is everyone realizes that you can pitch him inside or out because he is only aiming for the ball to be one of those two places. When he is on it's because he's guessing correctly at the fact that their trying to pitch him inside or out again. He continues to go on this hot streak until everyone's scouting report reflects that he is looking in or out and then they just start pitching him either away or in. It's going to be a cyclical thing. This is why he has become an amazingly streaky hitter. His natural skills no longer allow him to adjust to the pitch, (hence his decline in BA) so now he is just looking for one pitch to hit. PUTTING HIM AT FIRST BASE IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.

I've heard this several times and initially thought it was a bunch of crap. After watching Frank this year I believe it is true.

Edit- By the way this is not a Frank vs. Konerko or Daubach argument for me. This years stats make it hard for me to state any case for Pauly. I like the guy, but yes he is terrible right now and was terrible to start the year. Frank's stats are much better. My argument is that putting him at first is not the problem with his offensive woes at the time. This isn't Jerry's fault. Playing a position doesn't change bat speed.

Ah, but pitching and defense wins more games, and anyone who thinks you can put crap on the field and try and score as many runs as you can, will be a loser in the pro game every time. Because the opposing good pitching will silence bats quickly.

The problem with Frank has always been in the clutch. He could go 4 for 5 and the one at bat he didn't get a hit in was the one the TEAM needed. That is what is obvious!!!! :D:

ma-gaga
09-18-2003, 02:37 PM
PHG is right though. Studies have shown that baseball is typically split up with hitting being 48% of the game and pitching and defense 52%. But they have to be split up, and the pitcher usually gets a majority of the credit. Thomas's hitting far outweighs any defensive liabilities over Konerko's 'skill'. I have MY doubts on the accuracy of these numbers, but the order of magnitude seems about right.


That being said, who would the Sox use at DH? and why??

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
PHG is right though. Studies have shown that baseball is typically split up with hitting being 48% of the game and pitching and defense 52%. But they have to be split up, and the pitcher usually gets a majority of the credit. Thomas's hitting far outweighs any defensive liabilities over Konerko's 'skill'. I have MY doubts on the accuracy of these numbers, but the order of magnitude seems about right.


That being said, who would the Sox use at DH? and why??

Konerko would be fine with me based on the current team's stats. If not, then they have Daubach, or they could move Rowand to CF and let Everett DH, though that last one would be my last choice.

JC456
09-18-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Has Frank struggled in September? Sure, but check out the stats for the year and then start griping. You haters get more ridiculous with every passing day.

The year is now. There is no looking back into April and saying jeez if he'd only done this or that. No the time is now and all of our better hitters are not better at this time and that is the difference between games at this point. Their best have out hit ours. I never said anything about Frank's year. What I stated was he is not an answer playing defense. I have admitted Konerko hasn't come through, I said I didn't want to see Daubach again. I'm not going to say play Frank at first though. So pay attention to what is written before calling me a hater. One more question, In 2000, when Frank DH'd in the playoffs, was that the reason they got swept?

By the way, to the poster who asked if I liked Manuel? Hell no!! But I can't and you can't stop him from playing his players and I decided back after the ASB to accept that fact. It would be nice if others would accept it as well. It isn't going to change anything today, that's for sure. :D:

It would just be nice to see everyone just accept the fact that the Minnesota Twins beat our best and our best aren't clutch enough to win a big important game. They haven't since 1983!!! :gulp:

THE_HOOTER
09-18-2003, 02:59 PM
The original argument or statement was that Konerko, Thomas, and Valentin all suck in the clutch, and I agree.


This series was pressure filled and not one of these guys stepped up when it counted.


Whether Manuel is right or wrong for putting Thomas at first is not the argument.


Thomas is not a clutch hitter, and he proved it once again.


When he chokes this bad, its beyond awful because he doesnt even take a lot of pitches.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
The original argument or statement was that Konerko, Thomas, and Valentin all suck in the clutch, and I agree.


This series was pressure filled and not one of these guys stepped up when it counted.


Whether Manuel is right or wrong for putting Thomas at first is not the argument.


Thomas is not a clutch hitter, and he proved it once again.


When he chokes this bad, its beyond awful because he doesnt even take a lot of pitches.

Are Konerko and Valentin playing out of position? Is Manuel an idiot and in danger of losing his job (deservedly so) for botching the Sox offense the first 3 months of this season with his 87 different lineups?

Are we trying to actually SOLVE the problems of the Sox offense (i.e. firing Jerry Manuel) or content to simply take blind stabs in the dark (i.e. it's Frank's fault he doesn't hit at DH)?

Should we throw out the baby and keep the bathwater?

Undisputed bathwater ------------> :jerry

The Frank haters around here are ridiculous. They haven't made a cogent argument to defend their position yet. Ah, but they keep on trying...

:gulp:

shane
09-18-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
The original argument or statement was that Konerko, Thomas, and Valentin all suck in the clutch, and I agree.


This series was pressure filled and not one of these guys stepped up when it counted.


Whether Manuel is right or wrong for putting Thomas at first is not the argument.


Thomas is not a clutch hitter, and he proved it once again.


When he chokes this bad, its beyond awful because he doesnt even take a lot of pitches.

How about answering this: Who IS a clutch hitter?

Everett for a couple of nights, but what about the rest of the team. I honestly don't think anyone on the team is a great clutch hitter. Any of these guys could come up with the 2 on, 1 out, tied in the bottom of the ninth and hit into the DP or pop-out. Pujols is a clutch hitter. There is no Pujols on this team. We don't need clutch hitters, we need to quit trying to score 6 runs in the first two innings on homeruns. Play better ball, smarter ball (this is where a competent manager comes in) and clutch isn't necessary. Clutch is not 6 entire games for christ's sake. Clutch is that one hit that gets things done when the game is on the line. If you are going to call the whole game a clutch game, well then, this is not a clutch team. It's not entirely Thomas' fault. None of those guys are getting it done. All have provided a clutch hit or two throughout the season, but I just don't think we have a bonified clutch hitter.

THE_HOOTER
09-18-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Are Konerko and Valentin playing out of position? Is Manuel an idiot and in danger of losing his job (deservedly so) for botching the Sox offense the first 3 months of this season with his 87 different lineups?

Are we trying to actually SOLVE the problems of the Sox offense (i.e. firing Jerry Manuel) or content to simply take blind stabs in the dark (i.e. it's Frank's fault he doesn't hit at DH)?

Should we throw out the baby and keep the bathwater?

Undisputed bathwater ------------> :jerry

The Frank haters around here are ridiculous. They haven't made a cogent argument to defend their position yet. Ah, but they keep on trying...

:gulp:




first of all, I am not a Frank hater, and I agree with everything you say about Manuel and the other two.


But the fact still remains that Frank Thomas has not stepped up in pressure situations like he should, along with Manuel, Valentin, and Konerko.


I agree also that Thomas should be at 1st base, especially after his performance this summer while he was out there.

But it does not have anything to do with the fact that he consistently sucks in big/playoff style games.

Maybe he would perform better and 1st, and most likely he would--but if he is the DH, he should still be performing.


I don't see why that makes me a Frank Hater, or anything else.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 04:34 PM
I would GLADLY take our collection of "non-clutch hitters" with Ron Gardenhire as manager over Jerry Manuel managing Ruth, Gehrig and the rest of the '27 Yankees.

For the millionth time, the problem IS NOT our talent. Manuel would have Ruth pitching every fourth day.

:jerry
"I can't imagine anything short of an emergency putting the Bambino back in right field."
"Gehrig looks tired. I'm going to sit him. Frankly that consecutive game streak is a bigger deal for him than it is for us."

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Paulwny
09-18-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


For the millionth time, the problem IS NOT our talent. Manuel would have Ruth pitching every fourth day.




LMAO-- but it's probably true.

Oh yea, happy b-day.

Mammoo
09-18-2003, 04:50 PM
I think they should be launched after the season. It was a nice run with them but now it's over!!! :(:

RKMeibalane
09-18-2003, 05:03 PM
It is now time for "Frank's lawyer" to add his two cents to this discussion.

Folks, I have said this many times before. When Frank Thomas is on his game, he is the most dangerous hitter in all of baseball. Period. Anyone who saw the damage he did during the month of August will agree with me. Anyone who has seen the numbers he has put up this season, in spite of his hold-cold streaks, knows that Frank Thomas truly is the "Big Hurt."

There was a time, not long ago, when Frank was a certain first-ballot HOF'er. He was so devestating at the plate that when scouts and baseball historians were asked if they would rather have Frank Thomas, Ted Williams, or Lou Gehrig, many had to think LONG AND HARD before answering. He was that good.

Frank is not the hitter he once was, but I believe that he is capable of MVP numbers. How can my dream become a reality? By putting him at first base, which Jerry "The Tinkerer" Manuel has refused to do over and over and over.

Manuel said that he wouldn't play Frank at 1B unless there was an emergency. I'd say this mess qualifies as one, woudn't you?

Get this dumb piece of **** out of here -------------------> :jerry

JC456
09-19-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I would GLADLY take our collection of "non-clutch hitters" with Ron Gardenhire as manager over Jerry Manuel managing Ruth, Gehrig and the rest of the '27 Yankees.

For the millionth time, the problem IS NOT our talent. Manuel would have Ruth pitching every fourth day.

:jerry
"I can't imagine anything short of an emergency putting the Bambino back in right field."
"Gehrig looks tired. I'm going to sit him. Frankly that consecutive game streak is a bigger deal for him than it is for us."

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:
For the millionth time, you're not going to change the way Manuel manages this team. Not all of our top performers performed as we'd have liked to seen them. Minnesota has 9 players on the field as well and maybe, just maybe, out performed our players. Isn't that at all possible?

Konerko, Valentin, Thomas didn't perform, was the start of this thread. That is accurate. Giving Thomas a pass just because he didn't play 1st base or fill out a line up card doesn't change that fact. It doesn't make me a Frank Thomas hater. It just doesn't change the facts. Is that difficult to comprehend? Your politicking that things would have been different if he'd been at first base is just an assumption that will never be proven correct. Hence that is a theory and not fact.

The fact is that in the first inning again last night, whether Frank played first base or not, he didn't drive in a runner in scoring position with no one out again. And the reason that 1st base play doesn't matter for two of the nights is simply because the team hadn't played in the field yet because they were the visitors. So for two out of three nights that is 0 for 2 he didn't get the job done. He failed, and you and other Thomas lovers can't say that, it is beyond your capabilities to say he failed because he is destined for the HOF. I say who cares, he still failed. Konerko failed and Valentin failed. The team failed and Minnesota won, because they overcame their obstacles to win and the Sox did not. It is that simple.

Manuel is a piece of work that will need to leave soon, but the facts are, he is the manager and our team lost. Oh well that is the way the ball bounces, I'm saddened by that and it sucks to know the year is pretty much over. But you know what? There are 10 games left and anything is possible and I am going to continue to root that they win the remaining 10 and put pressure back on Minnesota not to fail. I'm going to the game on Saturday my sister and her friends on Sunday and we are both going to root hard during those two games, as I will, as I watch them tonight.

Have faith until it is officially over. Go Sox

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by JC456
For the millionth time, you're not going to change the way Manuel manages this team....

LOL! I don't need "to change the way Manuel manages." I only need Manuel to get fired. Events of the past 3 weeks on top of the last 3 years ought to ensure it.

:)

jabrch
09-19-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by JC456
Manuel is a piece of work that will need to leave soon


Is "work" an acceptable euphamism (sp?) for "DOG DOODY"

ode to veeck
09-19-2003, 02:01 PM
Is "work" an acceptable euphamism (sp?) for "DOG DOODY"

alt def: 25 monkeys sitting at 25 typewritters writing linup cards

JC456
09-19-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
LOL! I don't need "to change the way Manuel manages." I only need Manuel to get fired. Events of the past 3 weeks on top of the last 3 years ought to ensure it.

:)

What will you do if they don't fire him?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-19-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by JC456
What will you do if they don't fire him?

Keep bitching about how he is screwing up the most talented roster in the entire division, of course.

:)

Randar68
09-19-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by JC456
What will you do if they don't fire him?

Flood the White Sox with mail about me not going to another game until that sorry excuse for a gargoyle is fired. I suggest all other Manual dissenters begin doing so the day after the season ends if he is not yet fired.

Refuse to renew season tickets until you are sure he is gone, and let management know why.

JRIG
09-19-2003, 02:56 PM
I haven't looked at these numbers in a while:

Frank at 1B: .352/.487/.725 1.212 OPS


Frank as DH: .241/.361/.513 .874 OPS


Oh....what could have been in 2003.

JC456
09-19-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Flood the White Sox with mail about me not going to another game until that sorry excuse for a gargoyle is fired. I suggest all other Manual dissenters begin doing so the day after the season ends if he is not yet fired.

Refuse to renew season tickets until you are sure he is gone, and let management know why.

But don't you think that hurts the players not to go to a game just because you don't like the manager?

Management to some degree did it's job bringing in players in July and August to try and win. That is the first time I remember them doing it in a long time. I applaud them for that. Now you're saying don't go to games again because of the bum they have managing the team. All that will do is ensure much more losing, because then truly the talent will be gone for a long time. I guess it is what it is.