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View Full Version : JM was in a now win situation yesterday


gosox41
09-17-2003, 02:33 PM
As much as I can't stand JM, just about any scenario that played out with the pitching was going to get him gried somewhere. I've heard a lot of talk about resting Loiaza and all that. Esteban Loiaza was sick and Manuel still stuck with him as a starter instead of flip flopping him and Garland.

For the record, I am 100% in favor of the move. It didn't work out, but Loiaza is the best the Sox have right now. Would one day have made much of a difference in his health and strength?? Maybe, maybe not.

But the bottom line is JM actually made the right move, IMHO. If Loiaza didn't pitch, he'd be called gutless. If Garland did pitch and got lit up everyone would want JM fired. What if Loiza went out and pitched tonight and got lit up, would people be on JM for not pushing him back yet another day because he was still sick.

Too many 'what if's' but I think JM did the best with what he had. Other athletes have been known to rise above an injury or illness to dominate (Jordan comes to mind.) Why not give your best an opportunity to do this.

Anyone agree or disagree?

Bob

dickallen15
09-17-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
As much as I can't stand JM, just about any scenario that played out with the pitching was going to get him gried somewhere. I've heard a lot of talk about resting Loiaza and all that. Esteban Loiaza was sick and Manuel still stuck with him as a starter instead of flip flopping him and Garland.

For the record, I am 100% in favor of the move. It didn't work out, but Loiaza is the best the Sox have right now. Would one day have made much of a difference in his health and strength?? Maybe, maybe not.

But the bottom line is JM actually made the right move, IMHO. If Loiaza didn't pitch, he'd be called gutless. If Garland did pitch and got lit up everyone would want JM fired. What if Loiza went out and pitched tonight and got lit up, would people be on JM for not pushing him back yet another day because he was still sick.

Too many 'what if's' but I think JM did the best with what he had. Other athletes have been known to rise above an injury or illness to dominate (Jordan comes to mind.) Why not give your best an opportunity to do this.

Anyone agree or disagree?

Bob



I'm sure Esteban said he was good to go. When it became obvious in the very first inning that his health would be a problem he should have been taken out of the game. It is beyond me how dense Manuel must be.

LASOXFAN
09-17-2003, 03:07 PM
Manuel can't win with any choice he makes. The thing everyone fails to mention is that Radke pitched great. For as bad as he looked Loiza only gave up three runs and our pen only allowed two more. That's five runs, less than what the Sox have averaged since the break. I blame our offense and give credit to Radke and the Twins. Our players quit. Even Radke said he saw players hanging their heads early in the game. Newsflash: you don't see the Twins hanging their heads. They battle until the last out. It's a shame we don't have the same kind of mentality.

gosox41
09-17-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Our players quit. Even Radke said he saw players hanging their heads early in the game. Newsflash: you don't see the Twins hanging their heads. They battle until the last out. It's a shame we don't have the same kind of mentality.

Now that I may put some of the blame on JM.

Bob

Rocky Soprano
09-17-2003, 03:17 PM
Best post of the day!

I totally agree with what you said.

Its easy to point all the fault at Manuel, but he isnt the one out there taking at bats.

He did what he thought was best. It failed, oh well we get up and try again.

CHISOXFAN13
09-17-2003, 03:25 PM
Very solid post.

Everyone assumes Garland would have shut down the Twins, and Radke has been almost unhittable since the ASB.

OEO Magglio
09-17-2003, 03:53 PM
I totally disagree, first of all it was suppost to be garlands game to pitch anyways, and loaiza was suppost to pitch tonights game. Also one days rest when having the flu, can give you a lot of your strength back, that said our players still went out there with no intensity and were just terrible, but that was still a terrible move by JM.

jeremyb1
09-17-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I'm sure Esteban said he was good to go. When it became obvious in the very first inning that his health would be a problem he should have been taken out of the game. It is beyond me how dense Manuel must be.

Hahaha. Yeah, Manuel is dense but its a good idea to use your pen for 8 innings with 12 games left in a close penant race. Please tell me you're kidding.

The original post was dead on. I completely agree with you. It was a no win situation for Manuel. This entire season has more or less been a no win situation for him.

LASOXFAN
09-17-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Now that I may put some of the blame on JM.

Bob

Now you're touching on MY chief complaint about Manuel. Everyone wants him gone for all the moves he makes. No, I don't like all the moves he makes. Have yet to see a manager I agree with all season, that will be a first. But my chief complaint is that Jerry is about as inspirational as a wet rag. If teams take on the character of their manager, what are the Sox? This goes back to 2000 and the playoffs for me, when he made some disturbing statements about this team being ahead of schedule, I have very low expectations, blah blah blah. I wanted him fired right there and then. Still do want him gone, just not for the same reasons as most.

Jerko
09-17-2003, 04:15 PM
Jerry Manuel is the brightest, most refreshing manager to ever adorn the steps of a major league dugout. Not only are his in-game moves impeccable, but in the rare times when things DO go wrong, his explanations are precise, intelligent, non-contradictory, and gosh darnit, just an overall breath of fresh air! He has never made a bad move; he has never left a pitcher in too long, nor has he ever lied to the media or fans. He has never done 2 completely different things in the same situation and then try to explain both moves in the same breath. Since he is the only manager in baseball that doesn't pitch, hit, throw, or baserun for his team like all the rest of them do, nothing can ever be his fault, since he does not pitch, hit, throw, or baserun for his team. The fans are too rough on him, in their eyes EVERYTHING is his fault, when in reality, since he does not play, nothing is. What other manager could consistently guide his team to second place finishes almost every year? Who else can guide a team to almost the exact same record every year with all different players? Who else would let Willie Harris and Jose Paniagua justify their existences on a national stage when the rest of the world would just as soon see them go away? Jerry Manuel. I nominate Jerry Manuel for the Purple Heart, Nobel Peace Prize, Manager of the Year, and any other lifetime award that I just can't think about right now.

JasonC23
09-17-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Jerry Manuel is the brightest, most refreshing manager to ever adorn the steps of a major league dugout. Not only are his in-game moves impeccable, but in the rare times when things DO go wrong, his explanations are precise, intelligent, non-contradictory, and gosh darnit, just an overall breath of fresh air! He has never made a bad move; he has never left a pitcher in too long, nor has he ever lied to the media or fans. He has never done 2 completely different things in the same situation and then try to explain both moves in the same breath. Since he is the only manager in baseball that doesn't pitch, hit, throw, or baserun for his team like all the rest of them do, nothing can ever be his fault, since he does not pitch, hit, throw, or baserun for his team. The fans are too rough on him, in their eyes EVERYTHING is his fault, when in reality, since he does not play, nothing is. What other manager could consistently guide his team to second place finishes almost every year? Who else can guide a team to almost the exact same record every year with all different players? Who else would let Willie Harris and Jose Paniagua justify their existences on a national stage when the rest of the world would just as soon see them go away? Jerry Manuel. I nominate Jerry Manuel for the Purple Heart, Nobel Peace Prize, Manager of the Year, and any other lifetime award that I just can't think about right now.

Dammit, Jerko, I'm laughing so hard people are starting to wonder what the heck is wrong with me (moreso). Thanks a lot. :smile:

longshot7
09-17-2003, 04:49 PM
every game is a now win situation....