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JasonC23
09-17-2003, 01:00 PM
According to Baseball Prospectus, here are the top 5 AL rally-killers, by Double Plays Above Average (NETDP), a new stat they recently debuted. Guess who's first?

Player, Team, NETDP

Paul Konerko, CHA, 11.98
Todd Walker, BOS, 10.14
Manny Ramirez, BOS, 9.27
Magglio Ordonez, CHA, 9.17
Luis Rivas, MIN, 7.95

(The stat is based on double plays hit into when batting with a man on first and less than 2 outs, above or below the number an average batter would be expected to hit into.)

I love Mags, but man, it is disturbing to see him up there, too.

Oh, and Frank's NETDP is -1.86, which means he's grounded into less than you'd expect a normal batter to (negative is good for this stat).

Oh, heck, just for fun (and remember, positive bad, negative good)...

Player, NETDP

PK, 11.98
Mags, 9.17
CLee, 6.75
Robby, 3.57
Crede, 0.89
Sandy, 0.38
Carl, -0.69
Graff, -1.04
Willie, -1.07
Daubach, -1.17
Frank, -1.86
Rowand, -2.36
Olivo, -2.46
Jose, -2.89

Bobby Thigpen
09-17-2003, 01:05 PM
I don't know about that stat. Most of those guys are slow. Maybe it should be the slow hitter stat. Maggs being on there is a little disturbing, but I wouldn't mind having Manny up with a couple of ducks on hte pond in the World Series.

JasonC23
09-17-2003, 01:11 PM
I noticed that, too. Also noticed that Boston has 2 guys on the list, even though they're the highest scoring team in the league. (Of course, maybe they ground into so many double plays because they always have guys on.) :smile:

I do think it confirms what most of us have been thinking this year when Pauly comes to the dish with a man on first and less than 2 outs..."Time to refill my drink!" :angry:

Dadawg_77
09-17-2003, 01:40 PM
I think it doesn't tell who is slow, but how hits ground balls. Thomas doesn't hit many grounders anymore thus he won't hit into to many double plays. Konerko hits too many grounders, thus his chances of being doubled up are higher.

Jerko
09-17-2003, 02:37 PM
Look at that list. Every OTHER team on it will be in the playoffs.

FarmerAndy
09-17-2003, 03:39 PM
Konerko is TOO slow!

Last night he hit a ball to third. It was a tough play for Koskie and he went for the out at second. Judging from the body language of the Twins, they had no intention of turning a double play. After Hocking took the throw from Koskie, he paused a second before realizing he still had a play on Konerko who was still nowhere close to 1B yet. It was the most pathetic thing I'd ever seen.

He also failed to beat out a ball that was bobbled in the ninnth inning. I was listening to the radio at that point, but Rooney said the play wasn't even close. How can it not even be close when the fielder bobbles the ball?

When Konerko hits the ball, you can't even call what he does running. He jogs to 1B. It's really pathetic how slow he is. I mean, he's not Greg Luzinski or anything. He's not totally huge. How can a guy his size be that slow?

I hope the Sox can find another team willing to take on his salary, 'cause I've had enough of P.K. Use his money and try to keep Colon.

daveeym
09-17-2003, 03:46 PM
Just another worthless stat. As pointed out by everyone above there are various reasons for it. How good a team's offense is, Olivo is low cuz he strikes out, frank is low because he pops up, Pauly is high because he's slow, Maggs is high because he swings alot and hits the ball hard. There are too many factors that go into that to mean anything.

If anyone brings up the darn RS/27 stat i may scream.

JasonC23
09-17-2003, 04:16 PM
My main point was to show that, although we all know intuitively that Konerko has killed more rallies this year than anyone else in baseball, it was interesting to see a stat back that up. As others have pointed out, it does slant toward slow, ground-ball-producing hitters, true, but still, Pauly is head-and-shoulders above the crowd when it comes to rally-killing.

And off-topic...what is the problem with RC/27? That's twice I've seen it disparaged on this board, and neither time did the person doing the disparaging say why. It's easy to pick a random stat and say it sucks...how about some follow-up explaning what's wrong with it? I always wonder what drives people to be so anti-stat that they wave anything more complicated than BA, HR, and RBI away with a quick, "That's meaningless." Just curious...

daveeym
09-17-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
My main point was to show that, although we all know intuitively that Konerko has killed more rallies this year than anyone else in baseball, it was interesting to see a stat back that up. As others have pointed out, it does slant toward slow, ground-ball-producing hitters, true, but still, Pauly is head-and-shoulders above the crowd when it comes to rally-killing.

And off-topic...what is the problem with RC/27? That's twice I've seen it disparaged on this board, and neither time did the person doing the disparaging say why. It's easy to pick a random stat and say it sucks...how about some follow-up explaning what's wrong with it? I always wonder what drives people to be so anti-stat that they wave anything more complicated than BA, HR, and RBI away with a quick, "That's meaningless." Just curious...

RC/27 gets' ripped due to some posters beliefs that say its the god of stats, the end all be all of stats. I think for those posters, like me, that dismiss those stats, dismiss them when they are used by people as the only viable stat in an argument.

Your stat is actually fine for the point you were trying to make, sorry for getting off topic by dragging in the remnants of arguments from other threads into this one. :gulp: Paulie is carrying a semi on his back and I totally agree kills more rallies than anyone else.

But regarding it being a worthless stat why can't we look at how many GDP he has instead of making up some new stat to show it in a different way?

idseer
09-17-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy
Konerko is TOO slow!

Last night he hit a ball to third. It was a tough play for Koskie and he went for the out at second. Judging from the body language of the Twins, they had no intention of turning a double play. After Hocking took the throw from Koskie, he paused a second before realizing he still had a play on Konerko who was still nowhere close to 1B yet. It was the most pathetic thing I'd ever seen.

He also failed to beat out a ball that was bobbled in the ninnth inning. I was listening to the radio at that point, but Rooney said the play wasn't even close. How can it not even be close when the fielder bobbles the ball?

When Konerko hits the ball, you can't even call what he does running. He jogs to 1B. It's really pathetic how slow he is. I mean, he's not Greg Luzinski or anything. He's not totally huge. How can a guy his size be that slow?

I hope the Sox can find another team willing to take on his salary, 'cause I've had enough of P.K. Use his money and try to keep Colon.


you should have been around during the days of sherman lollar and walt dropo! :)

Paulwny
09-17-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by idseer
you should have been around during the days of sherman lollar and walt dropo! :)

You got me wondering,so I had to look it up, Konerko may pass Dropo who had 6 career sb but never Lollar who had 17sb career.

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Just another worthless stat. As pointed out by everyone above there are various reasons for it. How good a team's offense is, Olivo is low cuz he strikes out, frank is low because he pops up, Pauly is high because he's slow, Maggs is high because he swings alot and hits the ball hard. There are too many factors that go into that to mean anything.

If anyone brings up the darn RS/27 stat i may scream.

Still nice to have something to shows that in more concrete terms....

SouthBendSox
09-17-2003, 08:01 PM
how bout we just fire Manuel?

idseer
09-17-2003, 08:08 PM
and yet .................
































pk has beaten out 3 infield hits this year. probably leads the team!