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Dadawg_77
09-16-2003, 10:12 PM
Now I am hearing the press box knew before the game that E Lo was sick? What the **** is that ****ing idiot of the manager the Sox have ****ing doing? You could have insert Garland, whose regular day to start is today and hold E Lo back til tomorow, hopefully leting the bug pass.

:firejerry


ps I mistakenly put this in the parking lot, if one of the mods could delete that one. sorry

MarkEdward
09-16-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Now I am hearing the press box knew before the game that E Lo was sick? What the **** is that ****ing idiot of the manager the Sox have ****ing doing? You could have insert Garland, whose regular day to start is today and hold E Lo back til tomorow, hopefully leting the bug pass.


And if Garland gets blown out, you would've yelled at Manuel for not putting our best pitcher on the mound in one of the most important games of the year.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Dadawg_77
09-16-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
And if Garland gets blown out, you would've yelled at Manuel for not putting our best pitcher on the mound in one of the most important games of the year.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I probally would have til I heard E Lo was sick. Then you got say Garland was our best chance to win, not throwing a sick pitcher up there.

Jerko
09-16-2003, 10:20 PM
At least Garland is not SICK and it's his regular turn. Tomorrow would have been Loaiza's regular day too! Minnesota using their best pitcher on his normal turn YESTERDAY didn't seem to hurt them too much. You are right though, had Garland taken the mound tonight, we all would have been pissed, until we found out Loaiza was sick.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-16-2003, 10:57 PM
Overwhelming evidence! Bruce Levine agrees with Wills that "you have to go with your horse" and pitch Loaiza.

Well, that ought to settle it.

:)

cheeses_h_rice
09-16-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
And if Garland gets blown out, you would've yelled at Manuel for not putting our best pitcher on the mound in one of the most important games of the year.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Have to agree with you, MarkEdward.

As I posted elsewhere, if ELo pitched well and the Sox won, we'd all be comparing his performance to Michael Jordan's game 5 (?) show in the '98 NBA finals...

IronFisk
09-17-2003, 01:26 AM
uh, Loiaza is no Michael Jordan...

Anyway, kinda nice to see Pauly out of rhythm thanks to that benching for Daubauch in beantown, huh?

whatever.... :angry:

LASOXFAN
09-17-2003, 02:06 AM
Loiza said he wanted the ball. Game, set, match.

:threadsucks

Kilroy
09-17-2003, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Loiza said he wanted the ball. Game, set, match.



Can you imagine this place had Manuel started Garland, he got tagged, and then it came out that Loaiza wanted the ball?

It would be ten times the bitch-fest that it is right now...

Dadawg_77
09-17-2003, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Can you imagine this place had Manuel started Garland, he got tagged, and then it came out that Loaiza wanted the ball?

It would be ten times the bitch-fest that it is right now...

The reports are E Lo was vomiting before the game, couldn't eat. How the hell do you send him out there when you have Garland on his regular start. **** YOU JERRY. This ****ing dip **** cost me the chance the Sox in the playoff, while you may be a great guy outside the game, you ****ing suck worse as a manager then as a player. God this just pisses me off, it is a very stupid choice.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2003, 07:14 AM
What Loaiza says counts in my book. However it was pretty clear from the very first inning he didn't have it in what was essentially a playoff game. If Manuel comes in for any criticism it's for not having a faster hook?

Kilroy
09-17-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
What Loaiza says counts in my book. However it was pretty clear from the very first inning he didn't have it in what was essentially a playoff game. If Manuel comes in for any criticism it's for not having a faster hook?

A little background: I was bowling last night. I watched the game on the monitors above the lanes, but there was no sound. When I got home, I didn't care to read anything or watch anything about this game because I was pretty pissed off. So I had no info other than Sox played and lost, Loaiza looking especially bad.

That said:

I agree that what Loaiza says has to count for something. But with what I'm hearing this morning;

1. Loaiza hadn't been eating much for a couple of days.
2. Vomiting before the game.
3. Warmed up very poorly.

Number 3 is the key for me. Both Manuel and Cooper knew he wasn't feeling well, and then he looked ****ty warming up. Sometimes you have to know when to ignore your ace's statement that he wants the ball. I still stand by the other statement that it would be 10 times worse had JM started Garland, they lost, and then it came out that Loaiza said he could go, but I don't find it as cut and dried as I did.

Dadawg_77
09-17-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
What Loaiza says counts in my book. However it was pretty clear from the very first inning he didn't have it in what was essentially a playoff game. If Manuel comes in for any criticism it's for not having a faster hook?

George, when a player says he is ok sometimes he is "acting like a man". He is trying to suck it up and play hurt. As the manager you need to be able to tell when a guy is being macho and when the player is honestly fine. With the facts that this bug has been floating around the clubhouse, some of the coaches already had it, he was vomiting before the game, had been sick the past couple of days and couldn't eat, the manager needs to look past his player statements and realize maybe there is a better option.

If Garland came out and got rock, yeah JM would have taken some heat, but once the info on E Lo started to come out I think it would have died. Plus JM job isn't to worry about what we think, it is to put his team in the best postion to win. A 50% E Lo isn't it, was it and would never be it.

DonkeyKongerko
09-17-2003, 08:51 AM
Loaiza did only give up 3 runs then Scot came in and let the fourth score. Radke was very beatable tonight and the Sox set the tone early by getting 2 men on in the 1st and not scoring anything.

Jerko
09-17-2003, 09:04 AM
Just because Loaiza said he was ready does not automatically mean the decision to start him was right! EVERY major athlete would have done the same thing so as not to look like a puss. HOWEVER, sometimes that HURTS the TEAM. I'll use the Super Bowl as an example: Charles Woodson and Tory James both played with freshly implanted METAL PLATES in their legs. No WAY were they going to miss the SUPER BOWL, they are GAMERS, as was Loaiza yesterday. That's all fine and dandy, and I applaud the courage of these athletes, but NEITHER GUY COULD HAVE COVERED ME THAT DAY!!!!!!!!!!!! If Loaiza would have sat out because of the flu and stated as such, everyone would have said, "suck it up, be a man, everybody plays with the flu". He chose to avoid that scenario and got rocked. Now I know the flu is not a torn ACL or anything, but there are some days when you have the flu that you don't even want to move, let alone pitch in a major league ballgame. Just cause the guy says he's good to go does not mean he should all the time. So yes, I applaud his courage, no, I don't think he should have started.

chuckn98229
09-17-2003, 09:38 AM
A healthy Buehrle wanted the ball in New York - but didn't get it. Now JM says a sick Loaiza wanted the ball in Minnesota so he got it? I wonder what the Sox players think about all these inconsistencies. (I guess we should just be thankful that Cotts and Panagua are not around anymore - or one of them could be starting tonight .)

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2003, 09:49 AM
I said it would be crazy **** that decided who won the A.L. Central crown and I believe we've already seen it. That was NOT the Cy Young Award candidate pitching for the Sox last night. Blame Loaiza, blame Manuel, or blame fate... the result is the same.

I thought this comment by Teddy G. in his Cubune game recap was very interesting:

Loaiza said after the game that he hadn't been eating well and was low on energy. But he didn't consider telling manager Jerry Manuel that he couldn't go.

This is a rather amazing assessment by Teddy--assuming it accurately reflects the reality in the clubhouse. (I agree it might not.)

Who is responsible for setting the tone inside the clubhouse so that ballplayers don't feel threatened to tell their manager/coach the truth of their condition when they're less than 100 percent? Could last night's predicament for Loaiza have been aggravated by the situations we already know played out earlier this year (on top of countless others we know nothing about) involving Mark Buehrle (not allowed to start his next turn because he was stiff warming up , after being allowed to throw 106 pitches) and Bartolo Colon (told his manager to have somebody ready 'just in case' and instead was immediately pulled from the game).

Is it the responsiblility of the ballplayer to tell his team his true condition, or is it the job of the manager and coaching staff to make sure the winning effort of the ballclub isn't hurt by setting an improper atmosphere for how that information is received and acted upon?

I don't have to tell you how I feel about this subject. The simple fact Manuel claimed Loaiza "had a cough" speaks volumes for how watered down from the true nature of Loaiza's health his information was (or admits to knowing) compared with what others inside and outside the clubhouse knew and admit to.

:jerry
"Anybody who disagrees with me just doesn't understand baseball."

chosk8
09-17-2003, 10:12 AM
My guess is that if Loaiza would have come forward and told JM about the severity of his sickness, Garland would not have been pitching last night. Starting pitchers have routines and telling Jon an hour or two before game time and sending him out there could have been more devastating. My guess is that Wright or Schoeneweis would have spot started. I applaud Loaiza for wanting the ball despite his condition, but at this point in the season and our position in the standings, it was time for him to put his pride in the backseat and hand the ball off to whomever. If you're looking for somewhere to lay the blame, look to the offense. No timely hits. We need to learn how to manufacture runs when we have first and second and nobody out, like last night in the first inning. At no point in the game did I feel we would come back and a 4-0 lead should not be insurmountable. Credit Radke though, 2 games in a row he has had us off balance.

Jerko
09-17-2003, 11:23 AM
Ghandi says:

"You don't set nobody back because of a cough. This is the major leagues. You've got to be ready to perform."

That goes for managers too Jer, and not just in September. That goes for managers whose teams lose 8 games to the Tigers with BS lineups. That goes to managers whose team gets swept bt the likes of Cleveland, Detroit and Texas and loses a series to Tampa Bay. When are YOU going to start to perform. You're not even sick and you can't! There's days I'm sick and I can't even move, let alone pitch in a freaking pennant race. Now, Loaiza pitches sick when it's Garland's turn to pitch and gets hammered. Now Garland is pissed and he has to pitch tonight. I may be wrong, but the last time Garland got pissed (when he got pulled with a 4-1 lead), didn't he tank his next start too? I know the game has not been played yet, but this is starting to look like another 2 game slide than can be attributed to managerial ineptness, a-la the Cotts/Buehrle situation.

Lip Man 1
09-17-2003, 11:25 AM
Just wondering...and perhaps the stat geeks can figure this out because it's certainly beyond me.

A baseball season is roughly 180 days long. You play 162 games in that time frame.

What are the odds of any of the 25 players getting sick on the particular day of the biggest game of the year?

And to take that a step further what are the odds of your best starting pitcher getting sick on the day of the biggest game of the season? (a million to one???)

He couldn't have gotten sick Saturday...he couldn't have gotten sick Wednesday the day after he pitched. No he got sick on the day he pitched.

Ah yes the usual White Sox luck isn't it?

Somebody what to me again how the Sox aren't cursed?

Lip

shane
09-17-2003, 11:42 AM
Starting pitchers have routines and telling Jon an hour or two before game time and sending him out there could have been more devastating.

Well, if anyone's due for a change in routine, I would say it's Jon. This may have helped his performance. Imagine the confidence booster he gets if he's called on short notice to pick the team up and he performs well. Personally, I think E Lo could have communicated better with the proper people, E Lo could have made the statement to the press that he thinks this is one of the biggest games of the season, and he's just too sick to go out there. Pitching drains a person, as does the flu. Who gives a crap if some idiots call him a puss. Anyone that's ever had the flu, knows it's hard to do much.

I'm blaming E Lo the most, but the offense also has to take some blame. I just have a feeling E Lo f'd up their confidence with that first inning performance. As much as they get payed, that's no excuse, but deep down, it's still just like being in the little leagues.

gosox41
09-17-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
George, when a player says he is ok sometimes he is "acting like a man". He is trying to suck it up and play hurt. As the manager you need to be able to tell when a guy is being macho and when the player is honestly fine. With the facts that this bug has been floating around the clubhouse, some of the coaches already had it, he was vomiting before the game, had been sick the past couple of days and couldn't eat, the manager needs to look past his player statements and realize maybe there is a better option.

If Garland came out and got rock, yeah JM would have taken some heat, but once the info on E Lo started to come out I think it would have died. Plus JM job isn't to worry about what we think, it is to put his team in the best postion to win. A 50% E Lo isn't it, was it and would never be it.

If Garland pitched last night and got rocked a lot of people here would be wondering why a 23 year old inconsistent pitcher with OK career numbers agains the Twins was starting over the one guy who has carried the staff all year, even if he was sick.

Also, people would consider Loiaza a wuss for not attempting to pitch through it. Remember all the complaining about Wright being a wuss in the beginning of the year when has was experiencing elbow pain and insisted on being shut down even though the Sox doctors said he was fine (like they've never been wrong.)

Bob

gosox41
09-17-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by shane
Well, if anyone's due for a change in routine, I would say it's Jon. This may have helped his performance. Imagine the confidence booster he gets if he's called on short notice to pick the team up and he performs well. Personally, I think E Lo could have communicated better with the proper people, E Lo could have made the statement to the press that he thinks this is one of the biggest games of the season, and he's just too sick to go out there. Pitching drains a person, as does the flu. Who gives a crap if some idiots call him a puss. Anyone that's ever had the flu, knows it's hard to do much.

I'm blaming E Lo the most, but the offense also has to take some blame. I just have a feeling E Lo f'd up their confidence with that first inning performance. As much as they get payed, that's no excuse, but deep down, it's still just like being in the little leagues.

It's hard to imagine that the offense on this team is so soft that they think they can't over come a 3 run deficit with 7 innings of at bats coming up. If that's the case then this team is truly screwed because they give up to easliy.

Bob

TornLabrum
09-17-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
If Garland pitched last night and got rocked a lot of people here would be wondering why a 23 year old inconsistent pitcher with OK career numbers agains the Twins was starting over the one guy who has carried the staff all year, even if he was sick.

Also, people would consider Loiaza a wuss for not attempting to pitch through it. Remember all the complaining about Wright being a wuss in the beginning of the year when has was experiencing elbow pain and insisted on being shut down even though the Sox doctors said he was fine (like they've never been wrong.)

Bob

I'd be wondering why Garland would have been in just long enough to hear that Loaiza was puking his guts out before the game.

I was in an interesting situation last night. The WCSF had an executive board meeting and we were watching the game on a big screen with no sound. As soon as they showed Loaiza warming up, we all said, almost in unison, "He's sick."

So what I'm wondering is, why couldn't Gen. Disarray, who was right there, figure that out.