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View Full Version : Sidebar from the game thread, why was a flu-stricken Loaiza allowed to pitch?


Viva Magglio
09-16-2003, 10:10 PM
Already, Julie Swieca is questioning why Esteban Loaiza was allowed to pitch with the flu. I think she has a point. They should have given Loaiza an extra day to get over the flu and started Jon Garland instead.

According to a Score caller who listened to the game, Ed Farmer said on the broadcast that Loaiza told him he may throw up on the field tonight. Nice, and he was still allowed to pitch. How Jauronesque?

soxtalker
09-16-2003, 10:15 PM
If this is true, what do you think that KW is thinking right now. Remember, this is the guy that started throwing tables around last year when they weren't winning. Now, his manager starts an ill pitcher in a crucial game, and he keeps him in long enough for 4 runs to be charged to him.

mike squires
09-16-2003, 10:16 PM
Absolutly. If in fact he did have the flu and not 100 %, he shouldn't have been out there. Or at least let Wright have the ball after walking three batters in the first. Wright proved that he could shut them down the last time he had to come in early.

My guess is Manuel asked Loaiza if he wanted to pitch and of course Loaiza said yes.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-16-2003, 10:17 PM
Why pitch Loaiza? I'm guessing Jerry thinks Loaiza's flu "is a bigger deal for him than it is for us."

Has winning ever been as high on his priority list as it should be?

spanishwhite
09-16-2003, 10:17 PM
"You just don't understand what we(the sox) are trying to
accomplish."

I think that is what Manuel said, too many drinks to remember.
I was thinking the same thing. Esty might not fully recover but would be an extra day rested from the flu.

Then again, the sox should hang their heads for back to back pitiful performances against the poormans Moyer=Radke.

Who knows, at least we are not eliminated, yet.


Go Sox!!!

Viva Magglio
09-16-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by mike squires
My guess is Manuel asked Loaiza if he wanted to pitch and of course Loaiza said yes.

Loaiza was probably itchy to win this crucial game and win No. 20, but JM should have overruled him and said "Wait a day, Esteban." He is the manager, after all. For not much longer, though, I surely hope.

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 10:18 PM
this is rich. manuel really can't get it right can he? he gives buehrle an extra day of rest and he's not being competitive enough but he pitches loaiza - who no doubt wanted to go out there just like buehrle since he's a competitor - and is lambasted by the fans for it. you can't really have it both ways guys. i agree the buehrle situation was handled poorly but the bottom line is the same. do we want to take precations with our players or take risks to win at all costs in a heated playoff race? its impossible to do both.

Viva Magglio
09-16-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
this is rich. manuel really can't get it right can he? he gives buehrle an extra day of rest and he's not being competitive enough but he pitches loaiza - who no doubt wanted to go out there just like buehrle since he's a competitor - and is lambasted by the fans for it. you can't really have it both ways guys. i agree the buehrle situation was handled poorly but the bottom line is the same. do we want to take precations with our players or take risks to win at all costs in a heated playoff race? its impossible to do both.

This is a different case. The fact is that Loaiza had a medical condition tonight that undermined his ability to pitch. That was not the case with the Cotts-Buehrle fiasco.

cheeses_h_rice
09-16-2003, 10:21 PM
If Loaiza had gone out there and battled to get us a W and his 20th, we'd all be lauding him like MJ during the '98 NBA championships.

At some point, professionals have to step up and be accountable for their own actions.

Jerko
09-16-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Already, Julie Swieca is questioning why Esteban Loaiza was allowed to pitch with the flu. I think she has a point. They should have given Loaiza an extra day to get over the flu and started Jon Garland instead.

According to a Score caller who listened to the game, Ed Farmer said on the broadcast that Loaiza told him he may throw up on the field tonight. Nice, and he was still allowed to pitch. How Jauronesque?

NOW she second guesses JM, but 2 months ago after a blown game her exact words to a JM detractor were "bring something new to the table" because the guy didn't hit on her first. She may be a Sox fan but she can cram it too as far as I'm concerned. What a genious she is; questioning whether or not a sick man should have pitched and then she tells the fans to get a clue.

idseer
09-16-2003, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
this is rich. manuel really can't get it right can he? he gives buehrle an extra day of rest and he's not being competitive enough but he pitches loaiza - who no doubt wanted to go out there just like buehrle since he's a competitor - and is lambasted by the fans for it. you can't really have it both ways guys. i agree the buehrle situation was handled poorly but the bottom line is the same. do we want to take precations with our players or take risks to win at all costs in a heated playoff race? its impossible to do both.


you're right about only one thing ... manuel can't get it right.

Dadawg_77
09-16-2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
If Loaiza had gone out there and battled to get us a W and his 20th, we'd all be lauding him like MJ during the '98 NBA championships.

At some point, professionals have to step up and be accountable for their own actions.

True but the manager has to put his player in the best situation for them to succeed. Jerry hasn't done that all season long, can his ass now.

Viva Magglio
09-16-2003, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
NOW she second guesses JM, but 2 months ago after a blown game her exact words to a JM detractor were "bring something new to the table" because the guy didn't hit on her first. She may be a Sox fan but she can cram it too as far as I'm concerned. What a genious she is; questioning whether or not a sick man should have pitched and then she tells the fans to get a clue.

Actually, she did not mention JM. Gee, I wonder if she will blame Loaiza for this alone.

soxtalker
09-16-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
this is rich. manuel really can't get it right can he? he gives buehrle an extra day of rest and he's not being competitive enough but he pitches loaiza - who no doubt wanted to go out there just like buehrle since he's a competitor - and is lambasted by the fans for it. you can't really have it both ways guys. i agree the buehrle situation was handled poorly but the bottom line is the same. do we want to take precations with our players or take risks to win at all costs in a heated playoff race? its impossible to do both.

Actually, I think that JM has shown that he doesn't handle his pitchers very well in such situations. He has pulled Colon from a game early because Colon said that it was time to start warming someone up. Then he scratched Buerhle from the game against NY because he indicated that he might be a bit tight several days in advance. So, what does this teach the pitchers? Don't tell JM anything except that you want to pitch.

The manager needs to show judgement on whether the pitcher is in trouble.

Jerko
09-16-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Actually, she did not mention JM. Gee, I wonder if she will blame Loaiza for this alone.

If she is questioning why Loaiza was "allowed" to pitch, I think she is talking about JM, since he has the final call. I guess she could have been dissing the team doctors or something, but the manager DOES have the final say.

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Actually, I think that JM has shown that he doesn't handle his pitchers very well in such situations. He has pulled Colon from a game early because Colon said that it was time to start warming someone up. Then he scratched Buerhle from the game against NY because he indicated that he might be a bit tight several days in advance. So, what does this teach the pitchers? Don't tell JM anything except that you want to pitch.

The manager needs to show judgement on whether the pitcher is in trouble.

Should Cooper be fired for that Colon situation also? All accounts of that situation are that Colon is a horse and hardly ever indicates being tired in any fashion. He had a back problem and told Cooper to get someone up which Coop - based on his own personal exprience with Bartolo - took to mean that he had serious health issues and was going to have a difficult time continuing. Why was pulling him a mistake?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-16-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
this is rich. manuel really can't get it right can he? he gives buehrle an extra day of rest and he's not being competitive enough but he pitches loaiza - who no doubt wanted to go out there just like buehrle since he's a competitor - and is lambasted by the fans for it. you can't really have it both ways guys. i agree the buehrle situation was handled poorly but the bottom line is the same. do we want to take precations with our players or take risks to win at all costs in a heated playoff race? its impossible to do both.

Jeremy, you're not seriously suggesting a pitcher getting an extra days rest from the flu is the same as a pitcher getting an extra days rest from arm stiffness warming up in his last start.

Apples and oranges...

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
This is a different case. The fact is that Loaiza had a medical condition tonight that undermined his ability to pitch. That was not the case with the Cotts-Buehrle fiasco.

I don't see how the situation tonight was at all different, other than the fact that the actual condition was somewhat different. Buehrle told Manuel that his arm was abnormally tight in his last start before he was bumped. Buehrle obviously didn't think it was a non issue at that point or he wouldn't have brought it up. Buehrle then retracted his statement and told Manuel that his arm was okay and he wanted to pitch just as I'm sure Loaiza told Manuel that despite his flu symptoms he was completely able to pitch tonight. Manuel is supposed to listen to Buehrle when he says he's okay to go but not Loazia? I don't understand.

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Jeremy, you're not seriously suggesting a pitcher getting an extra days rest from the flu is the same as a pitcher getting an extra days rest from arm stiffness warming up in his last start.

Apples and oranges...

Its the same principle. Buehrle's arm was bothering him to the extent that he told the coaching staff about it. I'm guessing he wasn't at full strength five days later just as Loaiza wasn't at completely full strength tonight. If anything I'd say potential arm problems is a much more serious problem than the flu since pitching with arm issues poses a threat for long term problems whereas pitching with the flu does not.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-16-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I don't see how the situation tonight was at all different, other than the fact that the actual condition was somewhat different. Buehrle told Manuel that his arm was abnormally tight in his last start before he was bumped. Buehrle obviously didn't think it was a non issue at that point or he wouldn't have brought it up. Buehrle then retracted his statement and told Manuel that his arm was okay and he wanted to pitch just as I'm sure Loaiza told Manuel that despite his flu symptoms he was completely able to pitch tonight. Manuel is supposed to listen to Buehrle when he says he's okay to go but not Loazia? I don't understand.

Umm... because a pitcher who has the flu can expect his condition to improve in 24 hours. A pitcher with arm trouble can't be expected to change without several days (or weeks) of treatment.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Its the same principle. Buehrle's arm was bothering him to the extent that he told the coaching staff about it. I'm guessing he wasn't at full strength five days later just as Loaiza wasn't at completely full strength tonight. If anything I'd say potential arm problems is a much more serious problem than the flu since pitching with arm issues poses a threat for long term problems whereas pitching with the flu does not.

*****! Spin spin spin... you're guessing? Okay, can you point to a single comment from after that Saturday where Buehrle expressed tightness while warming up that supports the concept that he actually was experiencing arm trouble?

I can remember quote after quote from Mark Buehrle himself and Manuel himself saying that Buehrle was fine.

IF there was ACTUAL arm trouble, then you MIGHT have a point, BUT...

THE_HOOTER
09-16-2003, 10:49 PM
Loiaza looked fine to me.

I don't buy it.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-16-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Its the same principle. Buehrle's arm was bothering him to the extent that he told the coaching staff about it. I'm guessing he wasn't at full strength five days later just as Loaiza wasn't at completely full strength tonight. If anything I'd say potential arm problems is a much more serious problem than the flu since pitching with arm issues poses a threat for long term problems whereas pitching with the flu does not.

Fine. So if Manuel is worried about Buehrle's arm, why start him 24 hours later? Arm trouble isn't fixed in 24 hours! As usual, you and Manuel have two different explanations for the same clueless decision.

It's not "the same principle" by your own admission. The recovery time for the flu isn't anything like arm trouble...

Viva Magglio
09-16-2003, 10:53 PM
Loaiza said that he pitched because he is "not that type of guy" to miss a start because of sickness.

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Fine. So if Manuel is worried about Buehrle's arm, why start him 24 hours later? Arm trouble isn't fixed in 24 hours! As usual, you and Manuel have two different explanations for the same clueless decision.

It's not "the same principle" by your own admission. The recovery time for the flu isn't anything like arm trouble...

You've never heard of rest being prescribed for arm soreness? That's exactly what we did with Wright to help his tendinitis. If you have a sore, tired arm and you get some extra time in between starts - even if its only a day - that can improve your health. Pitchers are injured from being overworked so if you have extra time off, you lessen the risk for an injury resulting from overwork.

Also, whether its the flu or arm trouble, the question is do you want to start your best pitchers as often as possible regardless of risky circumstances or do you want to make sure they're pitching at their best.

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
*****! Spin spin spin... you're guessing? Okay, can you point to a single comment from after that Saturday where Buehrle expressed tightness while warming up that supports the concept that he actually was experiencing arm trouble?

I can remember quote after quote from Mark Buehrle himself and Manuel himself saying that Buehrle was fine.

IF there was ACTUAL arm trouble, then you MIGHT have a point, BUT...

There are numerous quotes from Manuel describing tightness in Buehrle's arm that Buehrle reported to the coaching staff. I trust the coaching/training staff to evaluate Buehrle's condition based on comments he makes to them better than I trust Mark to evaluate his own condition. He's not a doctor or even a pitching coach.

I don't see how unusual arm tightness is not "arm trouble". You don't have to have a serious condition for your arm to be in trouble. If you're overworked and have soreness, continuing to pitch is not always the answer. Serious arm injuries rarely just happen, they start somewhere. Taking preventative steps early on isn't worthless.

Viva Magglio
09-16-2003, 11:06 PM
He is saying that they basically felt Loaiza was good enough to go.

joecrede
09-16-2003, 11:16 PM
I think in the case of a player having the flu, the manager should leave it up to that player as to whether or not he can perform. Manuel handled it correctly in my opinion.

kempsted
09-16-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
There are numerous quotes from Manuel describing tightness in Buehrle's arm that Buehrle reported to the coaching staff. I trust the coaching/training staff to evaluate Buehrle's condition based on comments he makes to them better than I trust Mark to evaluate his own condition. He's not a doctor or even a pitching coach.

I don't see how unusual arm tightness is not "arm trouble". You don't have to have a serious condition for your arm to be in trouble. If you're overworked and have soreness, continuing to pitch is not always the answer. Serious arm injuries rarely just happen, they start somewhere. Taking preventative steps early on isn't worthless.

I don't know why you insist on not going back and looking at the record. Buehrle complained of tightness to the coaching staff BEFORE the game. Manuel then let him throw over 100 pitches. He then said he would start Cotts because of this pre game revelation. Buehrle complained to Copper (notice he did not talk to Jerry). Jerry then said "I am 99% sure I am going to pitch Buehrle". Then when we won the first two games he said he would start Cotts since the series was already won.

This situation - Loaiza complained his arm was tired last week. He had the flu yesterday. It was Garland who would have started anyway. In fact by moving Garland he made Garland upset - AGAIN.

These situations are totally different.

That said I really can't blame Jerry for pitching Loaiza in this game and we wouldn't have won anyway since we didn't score runs. Jerry also pulled him quickly enough which is good.

But no there is no real analogy here and it IS consistent to say he should have pitched Buerhle then and not pitched Loaiza now.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
There are numerous quotes from Manuel describing tightness in Buehrle's arm that Buehrle reported to the coaching staff. I trust the coaching/training staff to evaluate Buehrle's condition based on comments he makes to them better than I trust Mark to evaluate his own condition. He's not a doctor or even a pitching coach.

I don't see how unusual arm tightness is not "arm trouble". You don't have to have a serious condition for your arm to be in trouble. If you're overworked and have soreness, continuing to pitch is not always the answer. Serious arm injuries rarely just happen, they start somewhere. Taking preventative steps early on isn't worthless.

All of that was shortly after the game itself. By Tuesday, it was all the exact opposite.

cheeses_h_rice
09-16-2003, 11:26 PM
Why is everyone here ignoring the fact that our anemic offense managed only 2 runs against the Twins for the second game in a row against them? (After having gotten only 1 run the previous game.) All things considered, I doubt Garland would have done much better than give up 3-4 runs, which STILL wouldn't have been enough to win tonight.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
He is saying that they basically felt Loaiza was good enough to go.

I realize you like starting new threads, but can you try to reply to existing threads that you yourself started when it is merited like in this post above that I merged into this other thread?

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
All of that was shortly after the game itself. By Tuesday, it was all the exact opposite.

Just because Buehrle claims he feels better though that doesn't make the condition of his arm earlier in the weak completely irrelevant. His arm was still tight prior to his last start and he never denied that. He experienced signs of fatigue and potential trouble down the line so we attempted to give him more rest so that he'd be better in his next start and throughout the rest of the season.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Just because Buehrle claims he feels better though that doesn't make the condition of his arm earlier in the weak completely irrelevant. His arm was still tight prior to his last start and he never denied that. He experienced signs of fatigue and potential trouble down the line so we attempted to give him more rest so that he'd be better in his next start and throughout the rest of the season.

You buy it, I don't. I guess that's the end of it...

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You buy it, I don't. I guess that's the end of it...

I guess so. If you ask me there's no conspiracy here. I think JM was concerned about Buehrle's arm and considering how much we have invested in Mark and how many innings he's thrown at a young age, I think that's almost always a good policy.

bc2k
09-16-2003, 11:50 PM
Loaiza had a tummy ache? Sniffles? Too f'n bad. Nobody should question the status of his start, he should be expected by everyone to pitch the game. So he throws up on the mound, that isn't really a big deal. His arm is fine. His labrum, elbow and brain are in complete working order. Just make sure he downs plenty of orange juice between innings.

As I said in the chatroom, Jordan played through his flu in a critical game. I give Loaiza credit for taking the ball today, but have no pity for him pitching the most critical game of the season while "battling" a head cold. Loaiza suffered no bodily damage by pitching in today's game.

This is what aces of playoff staffs do. This is what 20-game winners do. This is what MVP's do. There should be no debate on this topic; Loaiza's start should have been expected.

Carl Everett, Carlos Lee, and Roberto Alomar showed up for today's game. Everett is a gamer.

pudge
09-16-2003, 11:53 PM
Something you guys aren't focusing on in your debate with jeremy:

In the cotts fiasco, the big difference was pitching an inexperienced rookie at Yankee stadium in a pennant race. Today, we had a veteran who has pitched well ready to step up. And in reality, Colon could start tomorrow if Loazia wasn't ready by then. That's the big difference. Loaiza could have been pushed back several days if necessary.

voodoochile
09-17-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I guess so. If you ask me there's no conspiracy here. I think JM was concerned about Buehrle's arm and considering how much we have invested in Mark and how many innings he's thrown at a young age, I think that's almost always a good policy.

Oh, I don't disagree that it started out that way, but I think Manuel made a decision that wasn't entirely based on that. I think he honestly believes the other part of it where he said, "If we win the first two then we will start Cotts." It wasn't all about Buehrle's arm, IMO. It was about JM and his wacky concept of how to manage a baseball team. I think he showed just how concerned he wasn't when he said he was 99% sure that Buehrle would start game 3. Then he decided to go with Cotts because there might be something wrong and because it just wasn't that important to him ("It's more important to Mark than it is to us.")

I also think it has to do with his continuous desire to see lesser talents people succeed. He is always testing people by putting them in tough situations, but only if you are new or unproven. He won't let the veterans prove themselves, only the Cotts and the Miles and the Ramirez and the Harris get to prove themselves and when they fail, they take the team with them. I don't think Manuel is a bad person and I think he would make an excellent low ball manager where that kind of tinkering pays off for the big club down the road, but once at this level, you let the studs play the game. You let the large talents with big egos dominate. Manuel has an insatiable need to build up the little guy and tear down the big guy. Unfortunately on this level of ball, you have to let the big egos have their way if you want to win consistently. That's because the guys with the biggest egos are normally the best players. I don't think Manuel has any clue how to deal with the Colons, Buehrles and Thomas's that dominate this level of play.

In fact, I think he resents them for being better than he could ever be as a player. I realize I am speculating here, but I just don't get why he does some of the things he does. I see no method to his madness...

bc2k
09-17-2003, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Already, Julie Swieca is questioning why Esteban Loaiza was allowed to pitch with the flu.

Every sports announcer/bum with a microphone who has never played professional baseball should not be offering their "insight" to a game that they have never played at that level. Julie Swieca? What she, or any other woman says about professional sports holds no validity because they have never played the game!

If a lady broadcaster makes a good point it is from second-hand information from someone who has played the sport (male). This is why I am so puzzled by these sideline reporters who add nothing to the game. Cheerleaders are sideline reporters -- reporting that they look hot, not how Bledsoe was able to avoid the sack. Hey Lisa Guererro, we've both played the same amount of downs in the NFL. Of course, Lisa Dergen is the exception.

voodoochile
09-17-2003, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Loaiza had a tummy ache? Sniffles? Too f'n bad. Nobody should question the status of his start, he should be expected by everyone to pitch the game. So he throws up on the mound, that isn't really a big deal. His arm is fine. His labrum, elbow and brain are in complete working order. Just make sure he downs plenty of orange juice between innings.

As I said in the chatroom, Jordan played through his flu in a critical game. I give Loaiza credit for taking the ball today, but have no pity for him pitching the most critical game of the season while "battling" a head cold. Loaiza suffered no bodily damage by pitching in today's game.

This is what aces of playoff staffs do. This is what 20-game winners do. This is what MVP's do. There should be no debate on this topic; Loaiza's start should have been expected.

Carl Everett, Carlos Lee, and Roberto Alomar showed up for today's game. Everett is a gamer.

Depends on what kind of flu it is and how much it affected his sleep. If it included repiratory problems then it can have a major effect on your ability to perform. Even if it is only stomach flu (which isn't really the flu at all) it can still weaken a person and make it hard to concentrate. Loaiza wasn't throwing very hard tonight and he definitely wasn't hitting his spots. It was obvious from the very beginning.

In theory I agree with you, but in practice if a guy isn't right, you have to give him every chance to get healty first, IMO.

I keep hearing people bring up MJ. I'm sorry, this is a laughable comparison. MJ was one of the all time great athletic talents in any sport. There are very few people who can do what he did that night. Maybe one a decade. To expect that type of performance from Loaiza is just plain ludicrous. Now Roger Clemens in his prime might have been able to do it, but since when did Loaiza become Roger Clemens?

voodoochile
09-17-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Every sports announcer/bum with a microphone who has never played professional baseball should not be offering their "insight" to a game that they have never played at that level. Julie Swieca? What she, or any other woman says about professional sports holds no validity because they have never played the game!

If a lady broadcaster makes a good point it is from second-hand information from someone who has played the sport (male). This is why I am so puzzled by these sideline reporters who add nothing to the game. Cheerleaders are sideline reporters -- reporting that they look hot, not how Bledsoe was able to avoid the sack. Hey Lisa Guererro, we've both played the same amount of downs in the NFL. Of course, Lisa Dergen is the exception.

Man, you REALLY need to reconsider what you are saying. Have you ever played professional baseball? Okay then your opinion means crap also. Have you ever been a paid reporter? Okay, now your opinion means even less.

These sexist comments are out of line and unacceptable, period.

cheeses_h_rice
09-17-2003, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I keep hearing people bring up MJ. I'm sorry, this is a laughable comparison. MJ was one of the all time great athletic talents in any sport. There are very few people who can do what he did that night. Maybe one a decade. To expect that type of performance from Loaiza is just plain ludicrous. Now Roger Clemens in his prime might have been able to do it, but since when did Loaiza become Roger Clemens?

Baseball is not nearly the demanding, non-stop physical sport that basketball is. In fact, pitching is not really that much athletic in nature as it is mental and tactical. I don't find it unreasonable to expect greatness from our ace when he's feeling under the weather -- do you?

bc2k
09-17-2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Now Roger Clemens in his prime might have been able to do it, but since when did Loaiza become Roger Clemens?

I'm not going to disagree with your analysis that MJ was an athletic exception, but when the hell did Roger Clemens factor into this discussion? You can't ask the question quoted above in that manner unless someone had previously compared Esteban to Roger.

jeremyb1
09-17-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh, I don't disagree that it started out that way, but I think Manuel made a decision that wasn't entirely based on that. I think he honestly believes the other part of it where he said, "If we win the first two then we will start Cotts." It wasn't all about Buehrle's arm, IMO. It was about JM and his wacky concept of how to manage a baseball team. I think he showed just how concerned he wasn't when he said he was 99% sure that Buehrle would start game 3. Then he decided to go with Cotts because there might be something wrong and because it just wasn't that important to him ("It's more important to Mark than it is to us.")

I agree it was handled poorly. He should've made up his mind well in advance and not went back and forth so much, especially in the media.

voodoochile
09-17-2003, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice


Baseball is not nearly the demanding, non-stop physical sport that basketball is. In fact, pitching is not really that much athletic in nature as it is mental and tactical. I don't find it unreasonable to expect greatness from our ace when he's feeling under the weather -- do you?


Originally posted by bc2k


I'm not going to disagree with your analysis that MJ was an athletic exception, but when the hell did Roger Clemens factor into this discussion? You can't ask the question quoted above in that manner unless someone had previously compared Esteban to Roger.


I was using a comparison of an extremely talented pitcher who has always been known for his competitiveness. Clemens not only fits that bill, but has fit it for a long time. He has proven his mental toughness year after year after year. Much the way MJ did in the NBA.

This is the first year that anyone has even thought of calling Loaiza an ace. Now because he had a good season and has shown some nads, you guys expect him to perform like one of the all time greats. I was pointing out that that is reaching at best and silly at worst. A healthy Loaiza is a solid pitcher and a Cy Young candidate THIS YEAR. A sick to his stomach Loaiza is something else entirely.

VeeckAsInWreck
09-17-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
A sick to his stomach Loaiza is something else entirely.

Yeah, He becomes this!
-----------
:jaime

bc2k
09-17-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Man, you REALLY need to reconsider what you are saying. Have you ever played professional baseball? Okay then your opinion means crap also. Have you ever been a paid reporter? Okay, now your opinion means even less.

These sexist comments are out of line and unacceptable, period.

Right Voo, that was my point. I've never played pro ball so I, a fan, have the same insight to the game as those with microphones who also have never played pro ball. It's not sexist because I feel the same way about men who have never played a pro sport.

Dadawg_77
09-17-2003, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Baseball is not nearly the demanding, non-stop physical sport that basketball is. In fact, pitching is not really that much athletic in nature as it is mental and tactical. I don't find it unreasonable to expect greatness from our ace when he's feeling under the weather -- do you?

It depends on how it effected him. His pitches were at least five miles per hour slower then normal last night. Which gave the Twins a longer time to see and react to the ball. Now non of us could hit it, but to a professional hitter five mph is a big difference on picking pitches up. Secondly, this probably points to the fact he was physically weak, esp with the fact he couldn't eat the past few days. This caused him to aim the ball for the perfect spot and/or overthrow everything trying to put something on the ball, since he had nothing behind his pitches and when you aim you miss.

mike squires
09-17-2003, 09:38 AM
I wish I had a buck for every time the Twins made a check swing. Loaiza didn't pitch ALL that poorly. He certainly missed his spots however his cutter was working, but as mentioned the Twins had much more time to react to the pitch.

voodoochile
09-17-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Right Voo, that was my point. I've never played pro ball so I, a fan, have the same insight to the game as those with microphones who also have never played pro ball. It's not sexist because I feel the same way about men who have never played a pro sport.

Then say that. Cut the crap about women not understanding sports and how all they know is because some man told them. It is definitely a sexist comment and I think you are smart enough to realize it.

maurice
09-17-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
You've never heard of rest being prescribed for arm soreness? That's exactly what we did with Wright to help his tendinitis.

Wright had a sore arm coming out of spring training and was shut down for several weeks. JM's explaination of the MB fiasco would have made a lot more sense if he skipped MB's turn because of soreness, and not simply pushed him back one day, after saying he was 99% sure he wouldn't push him back at all. Now that JG has been pushed back, I hope we don't get the same result.

ChiSoxBobette
09-17-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
Already, Julie Swieca is questioning why Esteban Loaiza was allowed to pitch with the flu. I think she has a point. They should have given Loaiza an extra day to get over the flu and started Jon Garland instead.

According to a Score caller who listened to the game, Ed Farmer said on the broadcast that Loaiza told him he may throw up on the field tonight. Nice, and he was still allowed to pitch. How Jauronesque?

Can anyone really explain to any of us what gos on in Jerry Manuels head. He will be the reason we don't win this division. Why would you send Loiaza out there , and he has to know as the manager the guy is sicker than a dog; to pitch. What did Manuel expect a no-hitter. Manuel has to be one of the biggest reasons we're not in first place by at least 5 games. All you have to do is look at the first half of the year with all of the lineup changes, games he gives away because its early in the year and he thinks he should be tinkering and the way he handles the pitching staff, last night as a for instance. I know we did'nt hit but to waste Loiaza when he's in no condition to pitch is just a joke.
:angry: :angry:
GO WHITE SOX1

kempsted
09-17-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Baseball is not nearly the demanding, non-stop physical sport that basketball is. In fact, pitching is not really that much athletic in nature as it is mental and tactical. I don't find it unreasonable to expect greatness from our ace when he's feeling under the weather -- do you?
I don't know what you do for a living but if you are doing anything at all physical and have the flu it can be bad. You are achy all over, your stomach etc. Hey why do you think they don't go out there when their back hurts? It affects the pitching. I think people expect things of athletes they would never expect of anyone else.

ma-gaga
09-17-2003, 01:47 PM
I've seen guys pitch with the "flu" brilliantly before. My example is Rick 'gopherball' Reed. Last year he pitched a complete game shutout with the same symptoms that Loiaza had. During THAT game Reed was wiping his nose on his arm after every 2nd pitch. It was disgusting, but he hammered through the lineup. He was coughing and hacking between innings. His interview afterwards also said that he considered throwing up on the mound... it was an incredible game. Simply said, Loiaza wasn't as lucky/effective.

It's also possible that Loiaza is worn out. He's pitched how many innings this year?? I think that a 4 man rotation would be REALLY detrimental to him. I know there's only a dozen games to go this year, but ... I wouldn't chance it.