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View Full Version : Questions on the future of Manuel


soxtalker
09-16-2003, 11:42 AM
I have a few questions regarding the future of JM. This is NOT meant to be a thread that rants about JM's shortcomings. I agree with many of those, but I'm trying to probe what some options might be regarding his future.

A lot of us have been less than enthusiastic about Manuel. What KW and JR think isn't terribly clear, though there have been hints that there may be some disappointment there. It does appear that the media and the team (mostly) seem to love him. Do any of you know how he is viewed by the rest of baseball -- specifically, other GM's?

Now, if he is thought of well by other GM's, is there any chance that he could be traded? I've heard of managers working out something with another team and some compensation being included, but I don't recall an outright trade. Is this possible?

Hangar18
09-16-2003, 11:52 AM
we cant get rid of him without having a BETTER replacement
for him. cant change for the sake of change

PaleHoseGeorge
09-16-2003, 11:59 AM
"Trading" managers is always a bit of a publicity stunt by the two clubs involved. I doubt Reinsdorf's Sox would go for it. Bill Veeck, on the other hand, would have loved such a trade. In fact, he tried to engineer precisely such a trade with the Yankees, Bob Lemon for Billy Martin. Steinbrenner didn't go for it, so Veeck simply let Lemon go, hiring Larry Doby. Later Steinbrenner hired Lemon (firing Martin for the millionth time) and Lemon led the '78 Yankees to their second consecutive world championship.

Other people will have to comment about what other GM's think of Manuel. I know ESPN's Baseball Tonight crowd generally think highly of him, but we all know how completely clueless they are about anything involving the Sox. I guess Manuel only needs one dumb owner or GM to believe them. :smile:

Like most managers who've won a division title and manager of the year awards, Manuel will draw interest. He'll get another job if he wants one, if for no other reason than so the new club can talk about their new manager's role in "winning" with the Sox. It sells tickets...

:garner
"Hiya, ****faces! I built my entire managerial career making everyone believe I was getting the most production out of the pile of **** teams I was given. My good luck finally ran out in Detroit..."

Rocky Soprano
09-16-2003, 12:00 PM
If Torre (sp) loses his job? Do we get him? Or is there someone else we should go for?

joecrede
09-16-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
If Torre (sp) loses his job? Do we get him? Or is there someone else we should go for?

From those in the know, Ozzie Guillen is the odds on favorite to replace Manuel in the unlikely event they do not win the division.

Unregistered
09-16-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
From those in the know, Ozzie Guillen is the odds on favorite to replace Manuel in the unlikely event they do not win the division. Well that's got disaster written all over it... :(:

soxtalker
09-16-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
"Trading" managers is always a bit of a publicity stunt by the two clubs involved. I doubt Reinsdorf's Sox would go for it. Bill Veeck, on the other hand, would have loved such a trade. In fact, he tried to engineer precisely such a trade with the Yankees, Bob Lemon for Billy Martin. Steinbrenner didn't go for it, so Veeck simply let Lemon go, hiring Larry Doby. Later Steinbrenner hired Lemon (firing Martin for the millionth time) and Lemon led the '78 Yankees to their second consecutive world championship.

Other people will have to comment about what other GM's think of Manuel. I know ESPN's Baseball Tonight crowd generally think highly of him, but we all know how completely clueless they are about anything involving the Sox. I guess Manuel only needs one dumb owner or GM to believe them. :smile:

Like most managers who've won a division title and manager of the year awards, Manuel will draw interest. He'll get another job if he wants one, if for no other reason than so the new club can talk about their new manager's role in "winning" with the Sox. It sells tickets...


Let me rephrase slightly: Is a managerial contract structured like a player contract; that is, can the team make a trade at their discretion? Obviously, the manager would need to agree to this, as no team would want a manager who doesn't want to be there. However, there is a subtle difference in who holds the power. If JM is perceived as a desirable commodity by several other teams, KW may be able to get more than just dumping the $1M salary. Since KW has shown that he can be creative as well as aggressive, this might provide an opportunity to either off-load a player we don't want (e.g., Koch) or obtain some replacement talent for players we won't re-sign.

Dadawg_77
09-16-2003, 01:13 PM
I think what happens here is the manager is allowed to talked to other teams, pushed out the door. After a agreement is reach between the manager and a new club, the two teams discuss compensation for the coach. Like Art Howe going from Oakland to the Met.

soxtalker
09-16-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I think what happens here is the manager is allowed to talked to other teams, pushed out the door. After a agreement is reach between the manager and a new club, the two teams discuss compensation for the coach. Like Art Howe going from Oakland to the Met.

Hmm.. Well, if that is indeed the case, it would constrain KW much more. The club signing the manager has much less incentive to compensate.

34 Inch Stick
09-16-2003, 01:39 PM
YOu think the players love him? How many quotes have we read in the paper from current or former members of the pitching staff openly ripping him. I think he is disrespected by the pitchers and tolerated by the everyday players.

soxtalker
09-16-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
YOu think the players love him? How many quotes have we read in the paper from current or former members of the pitching staff openly ripping him. I think he is disrespected by the pitchers and tolerated by the everyday players.

I put the word "mostly" in parentheses, as I wasn't really convinced that the players love him -- particularly lately. The media have generally reported that the players like him. Now, a large percentage of them seem to really like him and can't understand why we'd be complaining.

jabrch
09-16-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Now, if he is thought of well by other GM's, is there any chance that he could be traded? I've heard of managers working out something with another team and some compensation being included, but I don't recall an outright trade. Is this possible?


1) Trading of managers is no longer allowed. After the last trade, I think MLB put in place a rule to forbid it.

2) By all accounts, Wally Backman is the most preferred internal candidate.

3) If we manage to make it to the World Series, I imagine that Jerry/KW will keep JM around. I know that will make many of us sick, but it would be hard for them to justify spending big $ on a new manager and having an old one doing nothing when the $ needs to be spent on players.

I have a sinking feeling that we will be here in February/March complaining about why JM was not fired.

soxtalker
09-16-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
3) If we manage to make it to the World Series, I imagine that Jerry/KW will keep JM around. I know that will make many of us sick, but it would be hard for them to justify spending big $ on a new manager and having an old one doing nothing when the $ needs to be spent on players.

I have a sinking feeling that we will be here in February/March complaining about why JM was not fired.

That's likely true. While many of us will say that Manuel could have done things much easier (and smarter), he'll have many supporters. However, at this moment, it is beginning to dawn on many of us that just winning the division will be a daunting task. If we fail to do so, then the support for JM will be much more muted.

Unregistered
09-16-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
3) If we manage to make it to the World Series, I imagine that Jerry/KW will keep JM around. I know that will make many of us sick, but it would be hard for them to justify spending big $ on a new manager and having an old one doing nothing when the $ needs to be spent on players.

I have a sinking feeling that we will be here in February/March complaining about why JM was not fired. I have that same sinking feeling, minus the WS appearance... :(:

soxtalker
09-16-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
I have that same sinking feeling, minus the WS appearance... :(:

I'm not so sure. I no longer have the sense that KW or JR are backing JM -- no ringing endorsements during the last half of the season. In fact, JM has looked a few times during the season like a man who knew that his days were numbered. (Maybe that's my imagination.) And KW has shown a willingness to jetison his mistakes (e.g., Koch is sitting). So, if the Sox don't make the playoffs, it gives them ample reason not to bring him back. They do have a problem; JM has $1M coming next year. But KW -- and I haven't been a fan of his -- has shown a great deal of creativity this year in making deals, so I wouldn't count on them keeping JM unless we go deep into the playoffs.