PDA

View Full Version : Frank is a good hitter still, but he's not what he used to be (Frank don't read this)


Gumshoe
09-15-2003, 10:30 PM
Hmmmm, where to begin ...

Hmmm ...

1) OBP is .040 below career average

2) Hitting .205 in September

3) Going to set a career high for K's in a season

My opinion? He's going to be a Dave Kingman in a couple years. Ouch.

Compile that with our potential versatility problems, Lee rising to stardom, his dubious record in the clubhouse, and I think he's not worth keeping. This year, of course, fine -- I don't mean to call for his head. I hope we can win it with him, I really do. But he's not what he used to be. MVP for him is a joke.

Gumshoe

ps- GO SOX!

ScottyTheSoxFan
09-15-2003, 10:39 PM
i think you are about to hear it, gumshoe.

MRKARNO
09-15-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Hmmmm, where to begin ...

Hmmm ...

1) OBP is .040 below career average

2) Hitting .205 in September

3) Going to set a career high for K's in a season

My opinion? He's going to be a Dave Kingman in a couple years. Ouch.

Compile that with our potential versatility problems, Lee rising to stardom, his dubious record in the clubhouse, and I think he's not worth keeping. This year, of course, fine -- I don't mean to call for his head. I hope we can win it with him, I really do. But he's not what he used to be. MVP for him is a joke.

Gumshoe

ps- GO SOX!

In some ways I agree with you and in some ways I dont

But if Frank wants to stay, he has that option. I think the sox would be better without his salary, but you never know what the reinsdorf group will do...

Daver
09-15-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Hmmmm, where to begin ...

Hmmm ...

1) OBP is .040 below career average

2) Hitting .205 in September

3) Going to set a career high for K's in a season



Let me get this straight,you want to get rid of the best hitter in the teams history,and a first ballott Hall of Famer,because of a .040 drop in OBP based on his career numbers?

Have you compared those same numbers against anything anyone else has ever produced?


Let me know when you find someone aside from Barry Bonds that has the the Career OBP that Frank does.

Deadguy
09-15-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
In some ways I agree with you and in some ways I dont

But if Frank wants to stay, he has that option. I think the sox would be better without his salary, but you never know what the reinsdorf group will do...

How could 8 million be better spent?

DH is a position that has to be filled, and considering the fact that Edgar will be out of the league next year, it's safe to say that he will be the best DH in the league for years to come, if he's not already.

If you have a player who is the best at his position compared to the rest of the league, then getting rid of him will only hurt the team.

MRKARNO
09-15-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
How could 8 million be better spent?

DH is a position that has to be filled, and considering the fact that Edgar will be out of the league next year, it's safe to say that he will be the best DH in the league for years to come, if he's not already.

If you have a player who is the best at his position compared to the rest of the league, then getting rid of him will only hurt the team.

I retract that statement, I just wish we could keep everyone!!!! Reinsdorf please pay 80 mil next year!!! This is so hard seeing our team gonna be broken up next year like the 97 marlins and you're kidding yourself if you think we're gonna get everyone back

Gumshoe
09-15-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Let me get this straight,you want to get rid of the best hitter in the teams history,and a first ballott Hall of Famer,because of a .040 drop in OBP based on his career numbers?

Have you compared those same numbers against anything anyone else has ever produced?


Let me know when you find someone aside from Barry Bonds that has the the Career OBP that Frank does.

I think you lack foresight if you don't see the direction Frank is heading. Just like an old reliever, he'll drop off in the coming years. All it takes is another off the field failure. It's just too risky. I like Frank Thomas, but to be quite honest, I'd trade him in a second --- ESPECIALLY if we don't win this year. I'm telling you guys, it's only going to get worse. And I imagine this thread will be huge. I hope Frank doesn't read WSI, because I don't mean to diss him, but rather this is my opinion of his future, and it is extremely well founded given the makeup of the rest of the team.

Gumshoe

RKMeibalane
09-15-2003, 10:55 PM
I would like to reiterate a point that several people have made.

I would like to see what Frank's numbers look like after he has played a full season of games at first base. I think that his move to DH in 1998, more than anything else, is the reason why some of his numbers are not what they once were.

Frank is thirty five years old. He is not what he used to be, but I don't think he has slipped as far as some believe. It is obvious that he is still capable of run production, and his knowledge of the strike zone is superior to that of other players.

Daver
09-15-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I think you lack foresight if you don't see the direction Frank is heading. Just like an old reliever, he'll drop off in the coming years.


Tell that to Barry Bonds.

He is way past his prime isn't he?

JRIG
09-15-2003, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Tell that to Barry Bonds.

He is way past his prime isn't he?

Bonds is an extreme example. But Frank's "drop off" has come mostly in the form of batting average. He's still walking a ton and slugging extremely well.

RKMeibalane
09-15-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Bonds is an extreme example. But Frank's "drop off" has come mostly in the form of batting average. He's still walking a ton and slugging extremely well.

Exactly. And I remain convinced that his drop in batting average is the result of his not being at first base everyday.

And just who made that decision?

This ****ing idiot ----------------------------------------> :jerry

voodoochile
09-15-2003, 11:05 PM
I want to know when a player is allowed to finish their career with the sole team they've played for? Is there ever a player who is allowed to do that, or should everything be decided by numbers?

If so, how do you propose to replace Frank's numbers next year?

I mean strictly based on the RBI+R stat that Gumshoe likes, isn't Frank the second most important hitter on the team right now?

Where are you going to get that production from Gumshoe?

Let's drop the clubhouse chemistry crap for now. There hasn't been a single problem by Frank the whole season that you can point to. At least agree to give him a second chance if nothing else. I mean, the man has earned that right with his career numbers alone.

Come on Gumshoe, let me hear your explanation for how you are going to replace Frank's numbers...

RKMeibalane
09-15-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Come on Gumshoe, let me hear your explanation for how you are going to replace Frank's numbers...

I think I know what Gumshoe is doing. If Frank Thomas is not on the team next season, that means that either Everett or Lee moves to DH, and the other plays left field.

This leaves centerfield wide open for...

:rowand

Gumshoe loves Aaron Rowand. :D:

That aside, you are exactly right, voodoo. There are more than a few people who wouldn't mind seeing Frank leave, but they have yet to come up with a way to replace his numbers. Aaron Rowand isn't there answer. Neither is Brain Daubach. Joe Borchard is still a question mark, and I would hate to see Jeremy Reed ruined because the Sox rushed him to the big leagues as Frank's replacement.

Frank's departure would leave a huge hole in the lineup. We saw that in 2001. I don't want to see it again anytime soon, because that will be an absolute disaster.

ScottyTheSoxFan
09-15-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane

This leaves centerfield wide open for...

:rowand

Gumshoe loves Aaron Rowand. :D:



lets not forget the glorious return of d'angelo jimenez at shortstop

RKMeibalane
09-15-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
lets not forget the glorious return of d'angelo jimenez at shortstop

Not to mention...

:hitless

"I am the greatest!"

fquaye149
09-15-2003, 11:17 PM
please stop arguing frank should be at first. it's irrelevant at this point in the year, and realistically it SHOULDN'T make that big of a difference. yeah i've seen the numbers too but come on guys.

He's a HUGE HUGE liability at first. he would immediately become one of the worst defensive position players in baseball. i would love to keep him next year at DH salary permitting though. i think he's a solid s.o.b.


and he's got a chance to crack a career high HR so get off him for one hot minute

Soxboyrob
09-15-2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I think you lack foresight if you don't see the direction Frank is heading.
Gumshoe

The direction he's heading?
2001 OPS of .750ish
2002 OPS of .850ish
2003 OPS of .950ish
Tell me Gumshoe, where is he heading?

This is his best season in the past 3 years, BY FAR.
This is his second best season in the past 6 years, BY FAR.

Bonds seemed to hit his prime at the age of around 35 for goodness sakes. Can we at least wait until Frank is showing definite signs that he's done? His swing looks screwy....he strikes out more....blah blah blah. He is still as good a run producer as there is on this team and is still in the top ten OPS guys in the league. And by the way, OPS is not Bill James/Rob Neyer Voodoo for cryin' out loud. It's OBP plus slugging pct. Simple stuff. And fair.

Frank's had his best season in my memory, in terms of producing late and in the clutch. How many late inning, clutch homers did Frank have in his career prior to this season? One? Two? He's had 5 or 6 HUGE homers in the last few months. I'll want him gone when he's actually bad, rather than when I'm thinking he's "about" to be bad.

voodoochile
09-15-2003, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
The direction he's heading?
2001 OPS of .750ish
2002 OPS of .850ish
2003 OPS of .950ish
Tell me Gumshoe, where is he heading?

This is his best season in the past 3 years, BY FAR.
This is his second best season in the past 6 years, BY FAR.

Bonds seemed to hit his prime at the age of around 35 for goodness sakes. Can we at least wait until Frank is showing definite signs that he's done? His swing looks screwy....he strikes out more....blah blah blah. He is still as good a run producer as there is on this team and is still in the top ten OPS guys in the league. And by the way, OPS is not Bill James/Rob Neyer Voodoo for cryin' out loud. It's OBP plus slugging pct. Simple stuff. And fair.

Frank's had his best season in my memory, in terms of producing late and in the clutch. How many late inning, clutch homers did Frank have in his career prior to this season? One? Two? He's had 5 or 6 HUGE homers in the last few months. I'll want him gone when he's actually bad, rather than when I'm thinking he's "about" to be bad.

Wasn't me that was down on OPS. I think it is a great stat to fairly measure a guys production. I was talking about runs and RBI because those are the stats that Gumshoe accepts. I was attempting to hoist him with his own petard as it were. Whatever a petard is...

RKMeibalane
09-15-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
and he's got a chance to crack a career high HR so get off him for one hot minute

Tell that to the haters. They're the ones who won't leave him alone.

OEO Magglio
09-15-2003, 11:22 PM
I have to agree with gumshoe on this one, Frank has been great, but we all know JR isn't going to let KW bring this whole team back, right now I would much rather sign colon then to bring back frank, even though he's the best player in team history, and he's still a pretty darn good hitter.

voodoochile
09-15-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I have to agree with gumshoe on this one, Frank has been great, but we all know JR isn't going to let KW bring this whole team back, right now I would much rather sign colon then to bring back frank, even though he's the best player in team history, and he's still a pretty darn good hitter.

Are you that willing to settle for Reinsy's mediocrity? I guess he has won then...

:reinsy
"Anyone who thinks we can afford a $70M payroll is crazy. What do you think this is, a major TV market and a city with 7M people? I cannot compete with the flubbies. They have always owned this town and the Sox have never out drawn them."

RKMeibalane
09-15-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
I have to agree with gumshoe on this one, Frank has been great, but we all know JR isn't going to let KW bring this whole team back, right now I would much rather sign colon then to bring back frank, even though he's the best player in team history, and he's still a pretty darn good hitter.

Well, I think it's a good bet that Everett will be gone. If Frank leaves, then the Sox lineup will look like this next season:

2B- Alomar
SS- Valentin
LF- Lee
RF- Ordonez
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
DH- Daubach
CF- Rowand
C- Olivo

Not exactly the '27 Yankees, folks. Until Frank cannot physically go out there and play, he should remain a member of the Chicago White Sox. He has earned at least that much.

Soxboyrob
09-15-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Wasn't me that was down on OPS.

I know, Voodoo.
I meant it as an expression like Voodoo Stats, Voodoo Economics, etc. Just saying it ain't statistical voodoo to consider OPS as your measuring stick, since it's based on accepted stats. I personally choose to use RC/27, but few people are willing to accept it....probably because it doesn't yield the conclusion they were wanting to hear. In the event Frank is measured against the rest of the Sox team in terms of RC/27, he blows Lee off the planet.

voodoochile
09-15-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I know, Voodoo.
I meant it as an expression like Voodoo Stats, Voodoo Economics, etc. Just saying it ain't statistical voodoo to consider OPS as your measuring stick, since it's based on accepted stats. I personally choose to use RC/27, but few people are willing to accept it....probably because it doesn't yield the conclusion they were wanting to hear. In the event Frank is measured against the rest of the Sox team in terms of RC/27, he blows Lee off the planet.

Hey, don't get down on Voodoo Economics. My Uncle reinvented Supply Side Economics and gave it to Reagan...

Thanks for the explanation. I get confused sometimes when I see the word voodoo used in general terms. One poster has a quote by the "Voodoo Glow Skulls" in their signature and I do a double take every time...

OEO Magglio
09-15-2003, 11:41 PM
Voodoo, I absolutely hate that JR won't open his checkbook, but I'm just being realistic, and all I'm saying is I just want to see this rotation back together next year, and if we can somehow keep frank while doing that, I'm all for it.

voodoochile
09-15-2003, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Voodoo, I absolutely hate that JR won't open his checkbook, but I'm just being realistic, and all I'm saying is I just want to see this rotation back together next year, and if we can somehow keep frank while doing that, I'm all for it.

If Frank exercizes his option, then he will be back. If he doesn't and the Sox let him walk, they are making a huge mistake not only from a production perspective, but from a fan perspective too. Gumshoe is in the minority of Sox fans, but the ones who think Frank should finish his career with the Sox aren't as vocal about it normally.

I think most of us are so shocked at the concept that fans want Frank to finish his career elsewhere that they don't even think about it.

bc2k
09-16-2003, 12:41 AM
I was against keeping Frank last year, but I'm glad that he was here for 2003. Those numbers he put up are not replaceable. The only complaint that I have of Thomas is his inability to move on the basepaths.

When Frank declared mid-season that he was abandoning his high on base, hit for average mentality to go for power and home runs, I was angry. After hearing Frank's reasoning for the switch, I actually saw where he was coming from. Frank said himself that allowing good pitches go by in efforts to take a walk was not the most conducive way to help the Sox win since he cannot go first-to-third on base hits.

While I see good argument from both sides of this discussion, keeping thomas because he "deserves to be here" is not one of them. That statement puzzles me. We are all White Sox fans before fans of one player. We desire team success, not individual. If the Sox have a better replacement at DH or 1B, I would rather see the replacement. I think the better argument is that we don't yet have a replacement to Thomas, so it would be foolish to not keep him. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to see that.

Dadawg_77
09-16-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Hmmmm, where to begin ...

Hmmm ...

1) OBP is .040 below career average

2) Hitting .205 in September

3) Going to set a career high for K's in a season

My opinion? He's going to be a Dave Kingman in a couple years. Ouch.

Compile that with our potential versatility problems, Lee rising to stardom, his dubious record in the clubhouse, and I think he's not worth keeping. This year, of course, fine -- I don't mean to call for his head. I hope we can win it with him, I really do. But he's not what he used to be. MVP for him is a joke.

Gumshoe

ps- GO SOX!

I disagree with the MVP statement but overall you are correct. Frank Thomas isn't as good as the old Frank Thomas, but he is still better then 90% of the hitters out there.

RichH55
09-16-2003, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
please stop arguing frank should be at first. it's irrelevant at this point in the year, and realistically it SHOULDN'T make that big of a difference. yeah i've seen the numbers too but come on guys.

He's a HUGE HUGE liability at first. he would immediately become one of the worst defensive position players in baseball. i would love to keep him next year at DH salary permitting though. i think he's a solid s.o.b.


and he's got a chance to crack a career high HR so get off him for one hot minute


A) I fail to see how its irrelevant, especially if you buy the argument that playing him there helps his hitting(kind of important) --> Especially since you have "seen the numbers"

Didn't Frank go on a hot streak after hitting with an alumunum bat? This isn't a ton different. When Frank is playing his best he is Ted Williams-esque. Perhaps Playing 1B is psycho-somatic....results are results

B) Huge Liability? Explain? I know about his weak throwing arm, but honestly how much does that come up in a game? And he is a bigger target, and he can still catch a ball(this isnt freaking SS we are talking here)....and When did Konerko(especially a dinged up Paulie) become Keith Hernandez out there? How much of a downgrade could Frank be from Daubauch and Konerko.,.....Please Please Tell me

RichH55
09-16-2003, 01:50 AM
When does Frank's contract go up to 8 million? I was under the impression that it would be 6 next year?

Gumshoe...tell me where we can fill that production for the same money? Taking out loyalty, past performance, etc.....Purely cost-benefit analysis...where can we spend our resources more wisely?

MisterB
09-16-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane


Well, I think it's a good bet that Everett will be gone. If Frank leaves, then the Sox lineup will look like this next season:

2B- Alomar
SS- Valentin
LF- Lee
RF- Ordonez
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
DH- Daubach
CF- Rowand
C- Olivo

Not exactly the '27 Yankees, folks. Until Frank cannot physically go out there and play, he should remain a member of the Chicago White Sox. He has earned at least that much.

One thing that strikes me about that lineup...there is no one there who can really draw walks consistently. Magglio's good for about 60, but unless Robbie returns to his old self I see no one who would top 50 or so.


Originally posted by Dadawg_77


I disagree with the MVP statement but overall you are correct. Frank Thomas isn't as good as the old Frank Thomas, but he is still better then 90% of the hitters out there.

Considering Frank is 15th in OPS in all of baseball, this might literally be true.


Originally posted by RichH55
When does Frank's contract go up to 8 million? I was under the impression that it would be 6 next year?

Gumshoe...tell me where we can fill that production for the same money? Taking out loyalty, past performance, etc.....Purely cost-benefit analysis...where can we spend our resources more wisely?

If Frank exercises his option, it's $6M. If he doesn't and the team exercises its option, it's $8M.

idseer
09-16-2003, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I want to know when a player is allowed to finish their career with the sole team they've played for? Is there ever a player who is allowed to do that, or should everything be decided by numbers?




i don't like this thinking at all. how is this different than playing daubach in boston simply because he's from boston?
imo playing a whole career with one team is meaningless except to fans who love a guy and can't stand to see him go no matter how lousy they get (no, i'm not saying frank is lousy. i agree with the rest of your post).
maybe it can work out where some player can play his whole career with one team, but if a time comes where the TEAM is better off moving him ... then you MOVE him! everything SHOULD be decided by the numbers both financial and baseball stats.

one more thing. will you guys please quit citing bonds as a typical example of how a guy gets better from 35 on? you're only fooling yourselves to use this as a great reason to keep thomas as if it's likely he'll follow suit. bonds is probably the most extreme example of aging well after 35 ... maybe the ONLY example. thomas is no bonds and never will be.

booter14
09-16-2003, 10:03 AM
Frank is half the hitter he used to be, but he is every bit the slugger & more. The Sox exercising their option on the Hurt is a no brainer because $8 million doesn't buy you as much as it used to.

Frank is good for 40 homers and 100 rbis a year for the next 2 years at least, but he will definitely struggle to reach .250-.260 BA for the rest of his career. He has become the classic mistake hitter like the prototypical slugger from the 80's: Gorman Thomas, Tony Armas, Kittle, Luzinski.

He can only catch-up to fastballs if he guesses right, and he will usually wait for the hanger over the middle. Comparing him to Barry Bonds is a mistake, because Barry can turn on any pitch in any situation. Barry rarely misses a fastball. Frank can no longer keep a fastball in play due to his bat speed, unless of course he guesses right.

Frank is getting smarter in his old age, so that makes him worth keeping him around. However, he no longer deserves the 3 hole in the lineup, and should be placed in the clean-up spot or 5 spot for increased run production. Too many solo shots this year. Hopefully our new manager next year will realize this.

daveeym
09-16-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I know, Voodoo.
I meant it as an expression like Voodoo Stats, Voodoo Economics, etc. Just saying it ain't statistical voodoo to consider OPS as your measuring stick, since it's based on accepted stats. I personally choose to use RC/27, but few people are willing to accept it....probably because it doesn't yield the conclusion they were wanting to hear. In the event Frank is measured against the rest of the Sox team in terms of RC/27, he blows Lee off the planet.

Get off the all emazing RC/27 it's worthless.

As for Frank. Keep him you're not going to replace him with anything of equal value. He'll have a better year next year as he settles into the DH role because face it he's not going back to first with the Sox. You can throw out all your arbitrary stats that each of ya prefer but it by far is his best year of the last three and you'd be losing a lot with him gone. that said C.LeeMVP.

daveeym
09-16-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by booter14
Frank is half the hitter he used to be, but he is every bit the slugger & more. The Sox exercising their option on the Hurt is a no brainer because $8 million doesn't buy you as much as it used to.

Frank is good for 40 homers and 100 rbis a year for the next 2 years at least, but he will definitely struggle to reach .250-.260 BA for the rest of his career. He has become the classic mistake hitter like the prototypical slugger from the 80's: Gorman Thomas, Tony Armas, Kittle, Luzinski.

He can only catch-up to fastballs if he guesses right, and he will usually wait for the hanger over the middle. Comparing him to Barry Bonds is a mistake, because Barry can turn on any pitch in any situation. Barry rarely misses a fastball. Frank can no longer keep a fastball in play due to his bat speed, unless of course he guesses right.

Frank is getting smarter in his old age, so that makes him worth keeping him around. However, he no longer deserves the 3 hole in the lineup, and should be placed in the clean-up spot or 5 spot for increased run production. Too many solo shots this year. Hopefully our new manager next year will realize this.

All frank has to do is get in better shape and lose 15 lbs and he'll have his bat speed back.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-16-2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Voodoo, I absolutely hate that JR won't open his checkbook, but I'm just being realistic, and all I'm saying is I just want to see this rotation back together next year, and if we can somehow keep frank while doing that, I'm all for it.

Well if you're looking for someplace to save the chairman some money, I can think of one very obvious spot...

:walnuts
<gulp>

We can get similar production from a 1B/DH for $7 million less per season.

Deadguy
09-16-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well if you're looking for someplace to save the chairman some money, I can think of one very obvious spot...

:walnuts
<gulp>

We can get similar production from a 1B/DH for $7 million less per season.

I agree. We should concentrate on cutting the salaries of players who are either just along for the ride, or hurting the team (Koch, Konerko, etc.).

We managed to pick up someone this offseason whose career numbers and production since 1999 aren't all too different from Konerko's (Daubach), for just $450,000. Since Daubach obviously didn't get much interest from other teams this off season, that is a good indication that we greatly overpaid Konerko for his services, and that picking someone up to replace his production really isn't that difficult.

There's no point in arguing about getting rid of guys who are assets to the team, since getting rid of them will more than likely lead to a regression in terms of the advancement of this team.

jabrch
09-16-2003, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well if you're looking for someplace to save the chairman some money, I can think of one very obvious spot...

:walnuts
<gulp>

We can get similar production from a 1B/DH for $7 million less per season.

It would take a Henryesque trade (getting rid of Todd Hundley) in order to find a taker for Konerko's deal. Put yourself in the shoes of another team's GM. He is a average defensive 1B who hit about .250 and 20 HRs this year... And this helps a lineup how exactly? I know he has had some good stretches, but we won't easily be able to dump that salary.

Lets say we are able to keep Alomar and a fair salary - just for arguements sake. We have Mags, Carlos, Frank, Paulie and Everett and Colon to deal with. Mags is staying, and gets a raise. Carlos goes to arbitration and gets a decent raise. I think Paulie is untradeable due to his contract. Any trade KW is likely to make would probably require us to take on an equally filthy contract because nobody is looking to add payroll for a slightly above average - at best - 1B. So that leaves Everett and Frank. Sadly, it seems like Everett is gone. I like what he brings to the team and would love to see him stick around. Lets say Frank puts the pressure on Jerry and declines his option. Jerry has to keep Frank at 8 or let him go. Right? My guess is that the choice then becomes Frank at 8 or Big Bart. I gotta tell you - I'd miss Frank - but not as much as I'd miss Colon.

If we lose Colon, Garland becomes our #3. Wright becomes our #4. And our #5? :?:

Ideally, Jerry opens the checkbook to add 8MM additional over the salary structure from last year with the idea that the fans are proving we will support a winner. That sort of foresight would enable us to keep both Frank and Bartolo. Ultimately, however, I see it as a choice - one or the other...

jabrch
09-16-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I agree. We should concentrate on cutting the salaries of players who are either just along for the ride, or hurting the team (Koch, Konerko, etc.).

I'm all for it...but Kenny would be executive of the year if he found a way to dump both Konerko and Koch on someone and not take back wasted salary in the process. Maybe he should call Jim Hendry and get some help? Hendry, IMHO, should be executive of the year this year. I hate to support a Cub, but this guy has done some amazing stuff for that club.

Kilroy
09-16-2003, 11:20 AM
this may have been posted, but I'm not gonna read this whole dumbass thread. Frank should retire in Sox pins, end of story.

As I recall, Frank can opt out of his contract after this season if he chooses. The Sox hold no option at all THIS YEAR. This is the only year that Frank can opt out. In the subsequent 3 to 4 years, both Frank and the Sox have options. If Frank excercises his option, then he remains with the Sox at a certain salary level. If the Sox excercise their option, Frank stays with the Sox at a higher salary level.

Rocky Soprano
09-16-2003, 11:40 AM
Frank stays! He deserves to end his career with the Sox.

Gumshoe
09-16-2003, 11:50 AM
Let's set a few things straight:

I don't hate OPS or doubt it's validity. I just think you guys are sucking its you know what, to DEATH. I know the stats, I watch Frank Thomas. My opinion is, for MANY reasons, it'd be in the interest of the Sox to let him go. I'd love for Frank to produce and finish his career with the Chicago White Sox, but I love the White Sox more. On to more issues ...

I have to agree with gumshoe on this one, Frank has been great, but we all know JR isn't going to let KW bring this whole team back, right now I would much rather sign colon then to bring back frank, even though he's the best player in team history, and he's still a pretty darn good hitter.

This is THE point. You guys act like we ABSOLUTELY need Frank's production. How do you know next year he'll be the same as this year? Won't get injured? How do you know guys like Lee and Konerko won't perform better with Frank out of the lineup? I would much rather have pitching than Frank's added (and continually questionable, IMHO) offense

2B- Alomar
SS- Valentin
LF- Lee
RF- Ordonez
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
DH- Daubach
CF- Rowand
C- Olivo

Are you telling me that we can't win with this lineup? If we focus on pitching and not make Foulke-like trades, there isn't ANY reason why this offense can't win games.

While I see good argument from both sides of this discussion, keeping thomas because he "deserves to be here" is not one of them. That statement puzzles me. We are all White Sox fans before fans of one player. We desire team success, not individual. If the Sox have a better replacement at DH or 1B, I would rather see the replacement.

Frank says things yearly that confuse people. He holds out because he isn't paid enough money. His mind is fragile, and he is an imposing figure in the clubhouse, and one of the greatest hitters of all time. I never disputed that. However, I also think if you remove him, other guys might be able to perform for full seasons not half (see Konerko), and still others might even produce more than some on this MB think.

B) Huge Liability? Explain? I know about his weak throwing arm, but honestly how much does that come up in a game? And he is a bigger target, and he can still catch a ball(this isnt freaking SS we are talking here)....and When did Konerko(especially a dinged up Paulie) become Keith Hernandez out there? How much of a downgrade could Frank be from Daubauch and Konerko.,.....Please Please Tell me

Seeing Frank a couple times this year, he didn't look TOO bad. But this is exactly what I'm talking about, in terms of not watching the game. If you don't see that Frank Thomas is one of the worst 1B of all time, if not the WORST, you just don't watch baseball, or know anything about D. Konerko on a scale of 1B, is around a 7-8, and Frank is a 3 at BEST. He in no way can turn a DP, and I would get INTENTIONALLY picked off by the pitcher just to see if he could throw me out at second, if I were any other team's player. I say this seriously. I think he has the worst major league arm in the history of the game. I'm convinced of it, in fact.

He is a very fragile mind, he knows he is average at best in the field, and he'll quit like he did in Oakland a few years ago, if just one blunder costs the Sox the game. But the MAIN point is, do you remember game 3 in Seattle in 2000? Frank exploited by a smart manager. Over a long season, the Beane attitude is fine, but once you get to the playoffs, you can't endure ineptitude of this level, because it costs you GAMES. I'm worried about Everett in a short series, too, because he might cost us a game if he doesn't hit the heck out of the ball.

Gumshoe

ps - those are funny pics and I take them spiritedly. But the fact is, we can win with Rowand and the loss of DJ was stupid. Just ask the Redlegs.

JRIG
09-16-2003, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by booter14
Frank is getting smarter in his old age, so that makes him worth keeping him around. However, he no longer deserves the 3 hole in the lineup, and should be placed in the clean-up spot or 5 spot for increased run production. Too many solo shots this year. Hopefully our new manager next year will realize this.

Frank still needs to hit third. He's the best OBP guy on the team and sets the table for our 4-6 guys to get RBIs. Not to mention he still slugs well enough to drive in the guys who get on base ahead of him. Frank is still a great #3 hitter.

longwood
09-16-2003, 11:56 AM
I think Frank proved this year mid-season that he still knows how to draw walks, but by his own statements, he decided to swing for power rather than take good pitches because he thought it would help his team.

Even with that, He's still #4 in the AL with 94 walks. Not too bad. Frank's a keeper in my book. Remember people counting him out after '99 only to have him almost make MVP in 2000? After a slow start this year, I've like what I've seen and I think that Thomas can make some adjustments to improve. Although his skills have tapered off, he's still a more "imtimidating" hitter than 90% of everyone else out there.

Dadawg_77
09-16-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe

......



Gumshoe, you are overrating Konerko. He is nice solid hitter but not a great one and will never be a great hitter. 66% Frank Thomas is better then a 100% Konerko. Konerko got paid not because of his ability on the filed but the fact the front office wants to market him. Who tells fans not to go on the field? Why was it Konerko Way at Fan Fest with no special mention of Thomas, the greatest hitter in the team's history? I think marketing by the Sox is one of the reasons people buy into fact that Konerko is a good first baseman, if you rate Paul as a 7-8, Frank is at least 5-6. Paul is an average first baseman who could be easily and cheaply replaced see Millar, Ortiz, Fulmer for some examples.

daveeym
09-16-2003, 12:16 PM
Season TM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

2000 CWS 159 582 115 191 44 0 43 143 112 94 1 3 .328 .436 .625 1.061

2003 CWS 141 504 79 132 28 0 40 96 94 111 0 0 .262 .387 .556 .943

I want the 2000 version of Frank back and i think he could get there again. If he would accept the fact that he's a dh and lose some of the bulk (not saying he's fat or out of shape but as he gets older he needs to slim down) he'll stop getting rung up on those inside fastballs.

Deadguy
09-16-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Season TM G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

2000 CWS 159 582 115 191 44 0 43 143 112 94 1 3 .328 .436 .625 1.061

2003 CWS 141 504 79 132 28 0 40 96 94 111 0 0 .262 .387 .556 .943

I want the 2000 version of Frank back and i think he could get there again. If he would accept the fact that he's a dh and lose some of the bulk (not saying he's fat or out of shape but as he gets older he needs to slim down) he'll stop getting rung up on those inside fastballs.

I'm sure the Dodgers wished they had the 1990 version of Rickey Henderson, instead of the 2003 version.

Whose to say that Thomas reverting back to 2000 form is even an option?

The bottom line is that he is the best in the league at his position, which means he is without a doubt helping the team in his current form.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 12:43 PM
2B- Alomar
SS- Valentin
LF- Lee
RF- Ordonez
1B- Konerko
3B- Crede
DH- Daubach
CF- Rowand
C- Olivo


Are you telling me that we can't win with this lineup? If we focus on pitching and not make Foulke-like trades, there isn't ANY reason why this offense can't win games.

I'm done. If you honestly believe that this lineup is capable of scoring 850+ runs per year then we are so far apart in our belief about baseball that it impossible for us to have a rational discussion on the topic...

I am curious as to why you won't answer the question about replacing Franks run production this year.

JR is that you? No, can't be JR he honestly expects the Sox to spend money on pitching...

maurice
09-16-2003, 12:48 PM
I don't see any reason why the greatest hitter in Sox history should not be allowed to finish his career with the Sox.

I think some people may be unfairly discounting Frank's walk rate, which is not likely to drop much any time soon. Similarly, his natural power is not going away. I think it's very likely that (barring injury) Frank will continue to post a .250+ AVE, 35+ HR, and 100+ BB for the next few years. That would likely result in a .900+ OPS and 100-ish RBI, making him a bargain at either $6 mil or $8 mil.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't see any reason why the greatest hitter in Sox history should not be allowed to finish his career with the Sox.

I think some people may be unfairly discounting Frank's walk rate, which is not likely to drop much any time soon. Similarly, his natural power is not going away. I think it's very likely that (barring injury) Frank will continue to post a .250+ AVE, 35+ HR, and 100+ BB for the next few years. That would likely result in a .900+ OPS and 100-ish RBI, making him a bargain at either $6 mil or $8 mil.

Thank you. I asked that question earlier and got one response and that was that it should never factor into the situation. I think that is completely cold-hearted and would hurt the fan base even more, but if Frank can put up numbers like you suggest (and there is absolutely NO reason to think he won't) then there is no question he should be allowed to finish his career on the Southside...

JRIG
09-16-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I don't see any reason why the greatest hitter in Sox history should not be allowed to finish his career with the Sox.

I think some people may be unfairly discounting Frank's walk rate, which is not likely to drop much any time soon. Similarly, his natural power is not going away. I think it's very likely that (barring injury) Frank will continue to post a .250+ AVE, 35+ HR, and 100+ BB for the next few years. That would likely result in a .900+ OPS and 100-ish RBI, making him a bargain at either $6 mil or $8 mil.

Frank's been 1st or second in the AL in isolated power for most of the season, and I think he's currently 4th in walks. Many of Thomas' detractors seem to be hung up on batting average. They must be, because there is not any other part of his game that has really suffered.

JRIG
09-16-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I'm done. If you honestly believe that this lineup is capable of scoring 850+ runs per year then we are so far apart in our belief about baseball that it impossible for us to have a rational discussion on the topic...


Yeah, but I'm sure a lineup like that would be full of guys who do the little things right and know how to play the game. That's got to be worth 200 runs a season, right?


Again, Frank does the big things right like walking, getting on base, and hitting the damn ball out of the ballpark.

daveeym
09-16-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I'm sure the Dodgers wished they had the 1990 version of Rickey Henderson, instead of the 2003 version.

Whose to say that Thomas reverting back to 2000 form is even an option?

The bottom line is that he is the best in the league at his position, which means he is without a doubt helping the team in his current form.

Come on a 13 year gap and a 3 year gap is not even comparable. I think Frank has one more huge season left in him at least.

Gumshoe
09-16-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I'm done. If you honestly believe that this lineup is capable of scoring 850+ runs per year then we are so far apart in our belief about baseball that it impossible for us to have a rational discussion on the topic...

I am curious as to why you won't answer the question about replacing Franks run production this year.

JR is that you? No, can't be JR he honestly expects the Sox to spend money on pitching...

Voodoo, please understand a few things! WHEN did I ever say that that lineup was going to put up 850 runs, man!!!??? NEVER. I said that lineup can win.

How many teams put up 850 in a year anyway? Sheesh, that is a retarded statement.

Thomas is going to continue to decline. That is my opinion, and he's showing it. I don't think he's going to replace his numbers this year, next year, or any coming year! That's my point, my friend! You read my writing but don't understand my words, man.

The other guys can win. Let's get / keep some pitching and let the guy who is going to keep declining go. I can feel the breeze from his strike out / TWIRL still from a week ago. (He NEVER used to do that)

Gumshoe

Deadguy
09-16-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe

Thomas is going to continue to decline. That is my opinion, and he's showing it. I don't think he's going to replace his numbers this year, next year, or any coming year! That's my point, my friend! You read my writing but don't understand my words, man.

[/B]

As of now, his OPS is 110 points higher than it was last year.

Judging from that, I'd say you're wrong to say he's declining.

jabrch
09-16-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
As of now, his OPS is 110 points higher than it was last year.

Judging from that, I'd say you're wrong to say he's declining.

Is OPS the final judge of decline? And is last year the idea benchmark to judge decline? If you take a 5 year trend line, Frank is clearly in decline. This year has been his best of the past three, but WE HAD TO INVOKE THE DIMINISHED SKILLS CLAUSE on him already. Come on...

Is there any doubt that his skills have diminished at the plate? Just listen to the interviews where he says he just wants to focus on hitting HRs. That's not the Frank Thomas that posted massive all-around numbers. That's the Frank Thomas hitting .262. This is his second worst full-season batting average. Frank likely won't score 100 runs this year. (Only the second time he has done that in a full season) He is going to break his own Ks in a season high. He still walks, but not enough to net his average with his OBP. He is still below .400 OBP. (only happened 1 time until 2001)

Frank is not the hitter he once was. It's Frank's choice. He can come back if he wants...for $6,000,000. If Frank decides he doesn't want that, and he wants to force JR/Kenny's hand to pay him 8,000,000, I say screw him. For 8,000,000 I'd rather have Colon than Thomas - assuming that's a choice. For 8,000,000, I'd rather have Alomar and Everett over Frank and Harris/Roward as starters. For 8,000,000 I'd rather see Buehrle and Carlos resigned to longer term deals.

I like Frank, but if 6,000,000 is not enough for him to play for us, I don't think I want to be held hostage for 8,000,000 given that he is definitely not the hitter he once was.

jabrch
09-16-2003, 03:51 PM
is if we let him walk, can that money be used along with Jose's salary to get us Matsui or Tejada? Ponson? Colon? Just thinking out loud...but...

Alomar
Lee
Mags
Tejada
Everett
Konerko
Crede
Rowand/Harris/Reed/Borchard/X?/Y?/Z?
Olivo

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Voodoo, please understand a few things! WHEN did I ever say that that lineup was going to put up 850 runs, man!!!??? NEVER. I said that lineup can win.

How many teams put up 850 in a year anyway? Sheesh, that is a retarded statement.

Thomas is going to continue to decline. That is my opinion, and he's showing it. I don't think he's going to replace his numbers this year, next year, or any coming year! That's my point, my friend! You read my writing but don't understand my words, man.

The other guys can win. Let's get / keep some pitching and let the guy who is going to keep declining go. I can feel the breeze from his strike out / TWIRL still from a week ago. (He NEVER used to do that)

Gumshoe

Oh, I see... It isn't my systematic dismanteling of your posts that has you upset, it's the way I changed the subject. Geez and here I thought that was the way to argue with you. You do it all the time. Someone rips up your logic, so you say, "what I meant was this" and bring up another piece of crappy logic to support the world view according to Gumshoe. Then people like me tear that down too. You don't respond, you just keep throwing more crap at the wall hoping some of it will stick and someone will then agree with you. Then finally, I make a point that is tangent to your argument. Saying that the lineup you propose won't produce as well as the one you are replacing and you go ballistic and accuse me of mis-reading your post.

In the end after a whole bunch of people have called you for bad logic, you change the tactic and say that it comes down to your belief that Frank will decline dramatically in the next few years. You have no evidence other than your belief. This is the same logic that causes you to rip on Frank for being unproductive in 2001 when he played 20+ games. Stunning stuff there. How will I ever refute it?

:whoflungpoo

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I like Frank, but if 6,000,000 is not enough for him to play for us, I don't think I want to be held hostage for 8,000,000 given that he is definitely not the hitter he once was.

But you aren't talking about saving $8M. You are talking about saving $2M (you want Frank at $6M, but not at $8M). Now who are you going to sign for the extra $2M that will dramatically improve the team?

Deadguy
09-16-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by jabrch


I like Frank, but if 6,000,000 is not enough for him to play for us, I don't think I want to be held hostage for 8,000,000 given that he is definitely not the hitter he once was.

I'd say 8 million is fair market value for what Thomas has done this year.

There are over 100 players in the game who make more than 8 million a year, so I don't think it would be ridiculous to pay that amount of money for the hitter that he is now.

Guys like Delgado, Giambi, and Jim Thome make twice that much. Mike Sweeney and Rafael Palmeiro both make between 9 and 11 million dollars.

I'm not saying that Thomas is as good as any of these players, or that the fact that he is primarilly a DH shouldn't factor into his salary, but subtracting a player who is the best in the league at his position is not going to make this team better.

maurice
09-16-2003, 04:13 PM
Notwithstanding the ample facts indicating that Frank remains one of the top hitters in baseball, folks continue to insist that he's "declining" below the level of a $6 or $8 mil/year player. This is like the twisted inverse of the folks who used to insist that Paulie was "improving every year," and thus deserved his gargantuan contract.

I'm still waiting for someone to disagree with my assessment that Frank (if healthy) will continue to post a .250+ AVE, 35+ HR, and 100+ BB over the next few years. The RBI and Run totals resulting from such a season are determined by the other members of the lineup. For example, Frank would have scored 100 Runs already this season if Maggs and Paulie were more consistently productive.

bc2k
09-16-2003, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Frank would have scored 100 Runs already this season if Maggs and Paulie were more consistently productive.

Frank advances station-to-station. Like Ed Farmer said, Frank advances the number of bases equal to what the batter behind him gets. A double by Maggs moves Frank 2 bases, a single advances Frank one base. If Frank could go from first base to third on singles to right, his run total would be higher. So I say his inability to score is caused more from his lack of baserunning, not the men hitting behind him.

Thus, the Sox might be wasting Frank's rbi production in the #3 spot. I believe it is more likely for Magglio to advance/eventually score with Frank hitting behind him as opposed to Magglio needing a triple to score Thomas after a walk. Magglio's rbi numbers ARE curiously low this season.

idseer
09-16-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Thank you. I asked that question earlier and got one response and that was that it should never factor into the situation. I think that is completely cold-hearted and would hurt the fan base even more, but if Frank can put up numbers like you suggest (and there is absolutely NO reason to think he won't) then there is no question he should be allowed to finish his career on the Southside...

that's me. one coldhearted sob :cool:

but i believe you're way wrong about hurting any fan base. i doubt there's one person here who suddenly doesn't follow as closely because frank's not around. people said the same thing when nellie fox was shipped off to houston. didn't happen!

i believe tho that frank is still worth the money he's getting. if he chooses to leave, however, that money will (should) replace him with something worth while. i.e. pitching!

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by idseer
that's me. one coldhearted sob :cool:

but i believe you're way wrong about hurting any fan base. i doubt there's one person here who suddenly doesn't follow as closely because frank's not around. people said the same thing when nellie fox was shipped off to houston. didn't happen!

i believe tho that frank is still worth the money he's getting. if he chooses to leave, however, that money will (should) replace him with something worth while. i.e. pitching!

Boy are you taking an optimistic viewpoint. I could see the Sox letting Frank walk and then putting all the money into resigning guys like Maggs and Carlos and crying poor.

It would hurt their fanbase by at least one person, BTW. I would stop attending games until Jerry sold or proved they could consistently field a winner. Maybe the $1000 I spent at the park this season isn't all that much, but it would be spent elsewhere in seasons to come.

guillen4life13
09-16-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Boy are you taking an optimistic viewpoint. I could see the Sox letting Frank walk and then putting all the money into resigning guys like Maggs and Carlos and crying poor.

It would hurt their fanbase by at least one person, BTW. I would stop attending games until Jerry sold or proved they could consistently field a winner. Maybe the $1000 I spent at the park this season isn't all that much, but it would be spent elsewhere in seasons to come.

Just don't... please don't start a cubbie crack habit.

But I'm not agreeing with Gumshoe that much. To put things short, Frank is still good, and until he shows consistent signs of mediocrity, he belongs in White Sox pinstripes. And once he is mediocre, I'm pretty sure he'll be able to tell, and he'll hang his cleats... quit while he's ahead.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Just don't... please don't start a cubbie crack habit.

But I'm not agreeing with Gumshoe that much. To put things short, Frank is still good, and until he shows consistent signs of mediocrity, he belongs in White Sox pinstripes. And once he is mediocre, I'm pretty sure he'll be able to tell, and he'll hang his cleats... quit while he's ahead.

Never said I'd stop rooting for them, I'd just stop spending my money on them...

jabrch
09-16-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
But you aren't talking about saving $8M. You are talking about saving $2M (you want Frank at $6M, but not at $8M). Now who are you going to sign for the extra $2M that will dramatically improve the team?

No...if we get him for 6,000,000 great...if we don't and we don't pay him $8,000,000, then we are saving all 8,000,000 right?

idseer
09-16-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Never said I'd stop rooting for them, I'd just stop spending my money on them...


so you're saying you're paying $1000 a year just cause frank's on the team?

you're saying if he left for any reason, you stop going to sox games?

hmmmmm. you're not the sox fan i thought you were voo. :?:

gosox41
09-16-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Hmmmm, where to begin ...

Hmmm ...

1) OBP is .040 below career average

2) Hitting .205 in September

3) Going to set a career high for K's in a season

My opinion? He's going to be a Dave Kingman in a couple years. Ouch.

Compile that with our potential versatility problems, Lee rising to stardom, his dubious record in the clubhouse, and I think he's not worth keeping. This year, of course, fine -- I don't mean to call for his head. I hope we can win it with him, I really do. But he's not what he used to be. MVP for him is a joke.

Gumshoe

ps- GO SOX!

Looks like another chance to rip on Frank. He's still the most productive hitter on the team and one of the most productive in the league.

I can find a ton of other holes on this team besides Frank.

Bob

jabrch
09-16-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I'd say 8 million is fair market value for what Thomas has done this year.

There are over 100 players in the game who make more than 8 million a year, so I don't think it would be ridiculous to pay that amount of money for the hitter that he is now.

Guys like Delgado, Giambi, and Jim Thome make twice that much. Mike Sweeney and Rafael Palmeiro both make between 9 and 11 million dollars.

I'm not saying that Thomas is as good as any of these players, or that the fact that he is primarilly a DH shouldn't factor into his salary, but subtracting a player who is the best in the league at his position is not going to make this team better.


His position? What position does he play? NONE. He hits. He has no position - lets be clear on that. Calling him the best at his position is grossly distorting the fact that he can not field. I love Frank, but if this is between Frank and Colon, I want Colon.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by jabrch


No...if we get him for 6,000,000 great...if we don't and we don't pay him $8,000,000, then we are saving all 8,000,000 right?

Okay, that is a valid point, but you are drawing the line at the $2M difference. What if the Sox option was for $6M? Just curious...


Originally posted by idseer



so you're saying you're paying $1000 a year just cause frank's on the team?

you're saying if he left for any reason, you stop going to sox games?

hmmmmm. you're not the sox fan i thought you were voo. :?:

If they let Frank go, then I seriously doubt their committment to winning. In addition, it would be one more kick in the nads for fans who have watched and rooted for Frank for his whole career. One more Reinsy blunder where he ignores the history of the team. One more horrible PR move to save a couple of dollars. I cannot support a business that shows so little regard for my wishes as a paying customer.

Diehard through and through, like you. You don't give Reinsy any money now do you?

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
His position? What position does he play? NONE. He hits. He has no position - lets be clear on that. Calling him the best at his position is grossly distorting the fact that he can not field. I love Frank, but if this is between Frank and Colon, I want Colon.

Why is that exactly? Has Frank refused to play the field? No, he has begged to play the field, but because Paulie has a more accurate arm (and that is it) Frank is relegated to DH.

Besides, like it or not, DH IS a legitmate position in the AL. You are twisting the definition through semantics, and not saying anthing...

daveeym
09-16-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why is that exactly? Has Frank refused to play the field? No, he has begged to play the field, but because Paulie has a more accurate arm (and that is it) Frank is relegated to DH.

Besides, like it or not, DH IS a legitmate position in the AL. You are twisting the definition through semantics, and not saying anthing...

I just can't wait to see the day that the Ewing Theory gets tested on the South Side of Chicago and puts these arguments to rest one way or the other.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
I just can't wait to see the day that the Ewing Theory gets tested on the South Side of Chicago and puts these arguments to rest one way or the other.

What theory?

Is this about Patrick Ewing not finishing his career with the Knicks? If so, I never said never. If Frank tries to hold on too long, that will be a different issue. But that time isn't today, and probably not next year.

Frank should be able to perform at a similar level for the next 3 years, IMO.

daveeym
09-16-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What theory?

Is this about Patrick Ewing not finishing his career with the Knicks? If so, I never said never. If Frank tries to hold on too long, that will be a different issue. But that time isn't today, and probably not next year.

Frank should be able to perform at a similar level for the next 3 years, IMO.

Should have included this link.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/010509.html

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by daveeym


I just can't wait to see the day that the Ewing Theory gets tested on the South Side of Chicago and puts these arguments to rest one way or the other.


Originally posted by daveeym


Should have included this link.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/010509.html


They did test it. In June when Frank returned to first base, he went on a tear and the Sox did too. Then they benched Frank for Paulie and went into a slump again.

RichH55
09-16-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why is that exactly? Has Frank refused to play the field? No, he has begged to play the field, but because Paulie has a more accurate arm (and that is it) Frank is relegated to DH.

Besides, like it or not, DH IS a legitmate position in the AL. You are twisting the definition through semantics, and not saying anthing...


I'm still waiting to hear how important a 1B arm is......How often does that come up? I accept that his arm is not the greatest, but to hear that "he is the worst 1B ever" and "I doubt if he could even throw the ball to second" which is hyperbole at best, and in reality is just trolling....So I'm still waiting to hear it

idseer
09-16-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, that is a valid point, but you are drawing the line at the $2M difference. What if the Sox option was for $6M? Just curious...




If they let Frank go, then I seriously doubt their committment to winning. In addition, it would be one more kick in the nads for fans who have watched and rooted for Frank for his whole career. One more Reinsy blunder where he ignores the history of the team. One more horrible PR move to save a couple of dollars. I cannot support a business that shows so little regard for my wishes as a paying customer.

Diehard through and through, like you. You don't give Reinsy any money now do you?


it seems to me you're saying regardless of everything else, the one move the dork could make that would prove his noncommittment would be in moving frank for ANY reason ... simply because he's always been a sox .... even if the move strengthened the team. this is the only real point i disaggree with you on. you're just a sentimental old fool! :D:

you have a good memory. it's true i don't spend a dime on the sox (i did buy a hat at the mall a few years back) but we were talking about you, not me. the sox lost my money back in the big strike. of course it's easier for me seeing as how i live over 500 miles away.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-16-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I'm still waiting to hear how important a 1B arm is......How often does that come up? I accept that his arm is not the greatest, but to hear that "he is the worst 1B ever" and "I doubt if he could even throw the ball to second" which is hyperbole at best, and in reality is just trolling....So I'm still waiting to hear it

Nothing like a round of Frank-bashing to get everybody in the right frame of my mind for the biggest game of the year!

Woo hoo!!!!

:)

Deadguy
09-16-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
His position? What position does he play? NONE. He hits. He has no position - lets be clear on that. Calling him the best at his position is grossly distorting the fact that he can not field. I love Frank, but if this is between Frank and Colon, I want Colon.

DH IS a position in the AL, and has been for about 30 years. Someone has to fill the position, and comparable to the average DH in this league, Thomas has been an asset to this team.

Baseball is half runs scored and half runs allowed. Thomas can still have an impact on half the game. Considering the fact that Bartolo contributes nothing to our runs scored total, and that defense also factors into runs allowed, it can be argued that pitching is even less important.

There is a direct correlation between runs scored vs. runs allowed, and a team's win loss record, so don't tell me that Thomas can only have a minimal effect on the Sox because he is just a DH.

And why exactly is this between Bartolo and Frank?

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by idseer
it seems to me you're saying regardless of everything else, the one move the dork could make that would prove his noncommittment would be in moving frank for ANY reason ... simply because he's always been a sox .... even if the move strengthened the team. this is the only real point i disaggree with you on. you're just a sentimental old fool! :D:

you have a good memory. it's true i don't spend a dime on the sox (i did buy a hat at the mall a few years back) but we were talking about you, not me. the sox lost my money back in the big strike. of course it's easier for me seeing as how i live over 500 miles away.

Okay, so I like Frank, sue me. It would be hard for me to see a way to make the team stronger by dumping Frank, but I also admit I am biased. Again, we aren't talking about trading Frank for other players, we are talking about dumping him for nothing except money. How can that make the team better? I don't want to spend Frank's money elsewhere. I want them to spend on Frank AND elsewhere.

Who out there is going to replace Frank's numbers for the money he earns?

idseer
09-16-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
DH IS a position in the AL, and has been for about 30 years. Someone has to fill the position, and comparable to the average DH in this league, Thomas has been an asset to this team.



oh give this one a rest. thomas doesn't wear a glove. he doesn't play a position and you're really stretching it to say he does. he fills a spot in the batting order and that's it. he does NOT play a position!

Deadguy
09-16-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by idseer
oh give this one a rest. thomas doesn't wear a glove. he doesn't play a position and you're really stretching it to say he does. he fills a spot in the batting order and that's it. he does NOT play a position!

Um, no, I won't give it a rest. My point is that Thomas can still have a strong impact on the game as a DH.


http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinteam.html#cws

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by idseer
oh give this one a rest. thomas doesn't wear a glove. he doesn't play a position and you're really stretching it to say he does. he fills a spot in the batting order and that's it. he does NOT play a position!

No, you give it a rest :D: DH is a position and the teams that have a guy who performs better than their opponents have an advantage there.

No one said, "play a position" that was on you. In addition, as has been pointed out several times, Frank WANTS to play first and can, but the manager won't let him.

idseer
09-16-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, so I like Frank, sue me. It would be hard for me to see a way to make the team stronger by dumping Frank, but I also admit I am biased. Again, we aren't talking about trading Frank for other players, we are talking about dumping him for nothing except money. How can that make the team better? I don't want to spend Frank's money elsewhere. I want them to spend on Frank AND elsewhere.

Who out there is going to replace Frank's numbers for the money he earns?

i can't answer that. i don't know. but did you read the linked article that daveeym posted (and thanks dave. interesting reading)? the thing is you never know what happens when someone is replaced do you? i can't say where the money would be spent if frank decided to leave but how do you know he isn't replaced by a phemon no one expected? that's what makes it so interesting.

idseer
09-16-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, you give it a rest :D: DH is a position ...

ok so dh is a position ... manager is a position ... the ball ball has a position.

symantics.

you know he was trying to point out that frank doesn't wear a glove. that was the point.

i'm not saying frank doesn't have value because he's a dh.

Deadguy
09-16-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by idseer


you know he was trying to point out that frank doesn't wear a glove. that was the point.



I don't believe anyone said Thomas does wear a glove.

What he was trying to do was downplay Thomas' importance to this team because he doesn't play the field.

hose
09-16-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Um, no, I won't give it a rest. My point is that Thomas can still have a strong impact on the game as a DH.


http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinteam.html#cws


While looking at that win share chart I stumbled across this:

Player Team Pos INN Field Rank WS/1000 INN
------- ----- ---- ------ ----- ---- -------
J Valentin CWS SS 1079 7.44 1 6.90


Jose is the #1 ranked SS in the AL.

That's a big freaking surprise!!!!!!! :gulp:

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i can't answer that. i don't know. but did you read the linked article that daveeym posted (and thanks dave. interesting reading)? the thing is you never know what happens when someone is replaced do you? i can't say where the money would be spent if frank decided to leave but how do you know he isn't replaced by a phemon no one expected? that's what makes it so interesting.

--------------------------------------

ok so dh is a position ... manager is a position ... the ball ball has a position.

symantics.


You want to take a chance that the Sox will luck into a phenom rather than take a sure thing for a reasonable price? Why?

Since when does the Ballboy or Manager score or drive in runs? You are the one who decided to twist the word position to fit a different definition, not me. If anyone is guilty of arguing semantics, it is you. I said as much earlier when Jabrch tried the same argument.

idseer
09-16-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I don't believe anyone said Thomas does wear a glove.

What he was trying to do was downplay Thomas' importance to this team because he doesn't play the field.


maybe i'm off here but it seems to me you're being too defensive about this.

look, when you evaluate a player you usually look at his hitting first. but don't you then see how the guy does in the field. one of the big topics here lately is how valuable alomar is at 2nd NOT because of his bat! it seems logical to me that someone who doesn't play the field brings less to the table than one who does.
would you admit that frank would be MORE valuable than he is if he was a very good thirdbaseman?

Deadguy
09-16-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by idseer
maybe i'm off here but it seems to me you're being too defensive about this.

If I come off that way, I apologize. I'm just trying to engage in a rational discussion about baseball.

look, when you evaluate a player you usually look at his hitting first. but don't you then see how the guy does in the field. one of the big topics here lately is how valuable alomar is at 2nd NOT because of his bat! it seems logical to me that someone who doesn't play the field brings less to the table than one who does.
would you admit that frank would be MORE valuable than he is if he was a very good thirdbaseman?

I agree 100%, and I'm not arguing against this.

I don't think there is anyway to rationalize the fact that Thomas can be as valuable to this team as someone like Alex Rodriguez.

No one in this thread has been arguing that though.

What we're arguing is that Thomas can still help the club, even in his current form as a DH. Just because he is not an MVP candidate doesn't mean that he can't be an asset to this team.

idseer
09-16-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You want to take a chance that the Sox will luck into a phenom rather than take a sure thing for a reasonable price? Why?

Since when does the Ballboy or Manager score or drive in runs? You are the one who decided to twist the word position to fit a different definition, not me. If anyone is guilty of arguing semantics, it is you. I said as much earlier when Jabrch tried the same argument.


no no no. what jabrch said was "His position? What position does he play? NONE. He hits. He has no position - lets be clear on that. Calling him the best at his position is grossly distorting the fact that he can not field. "
i have simply been agreeing with this sentiment. i haven't twisted anything. he clearly stated "what position does he PLAY" you don't play the dh position (unless you mean sitting on the bench when your team is in the field.

nobody said he doesn't drive in runs or score. but when the other team is at the plate thomas does no more than the ballboy! :smile:

idseer
09-16-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
If I come off that way, I apologize. I'm just trying to engage in a rational discussion about baseball.



I agree 100%, and I'm not arguing against this.

I don't think there is anyway to rationalize the fact that Thomas can be as valuable to this team as someone like Alex Rodriguez.

No one in this thread has been arguing that though.

What we're arguing is that Thomas can still help the club, even in his current form as a DH. Just because he is not an MVP candidate doesn't mean that he can't be an asset to this team.

yes, i haven't been arguing that point. everyone uses a dh and thomas is still one of the best to have there.

maurice
09-16-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I say his inability to score is caused more from his lack of baserunning, not the men hitting behind him.

Frank has scored more than 100 Runs nine times. He was not significantly faster in any of those years. In 1998, he scored 109 Runs, though his OBP was lower than his current OBP. The reason he scored more runs in 1998 was because the bats behind him were more consistently productive.

I do agree, however, that Frank eventually should move behind Maggs, if Maggs consistently matches or exceeds Frank's OBP.

Gumshoe
09-16-2003, 09:42 PM
Frank's RISP average is plummeting, NOW when it matters. We won't even get to late and close if he keeps grounding into DP (why not take more pitches) and popping up in big situations.

Gumshoe

Daver
09-16-2003, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Frank's RISP average is plummeting, NOW when it matters. We won't even get to late and close if he keeps grounding into DP

He has gounded into six DP's this season,including tonites game.

Your arguments are rather weak.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Frank's RISP average is plummeting, NOW when it matters. We won't even get to late and close if he keeps grounding into DP (why not take more pitches) and popping up in big situations.

Gumshoe

Yeah, but he's second in the majors in homeruns that have tied the game or given his team the lead (19).

RichH55
09-17-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Daver
He has gounded into six DP's this season,including tonites game.

Your arguments are rather weak.


Daver, took you that many of his posts to realize that:)

daveeym
09-17-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Daver


He has gounded into six DP's this season,including tonites game.

Your arguments are rather weak.

Wrong he has grounded into 10 double plays. 6 with RISP

Originally posted by voodoochile


Yeah, but he's second in the majors in homeruns that have tied the game or given his team the lead (19).

Give me a break here, how many of those are 1st inning home runs, I love em it gets them a lead, but don't even try to imply that 7-10 solo shots in the first inning is clutch or anything else.

Also, for the argument that you keep frank at 6 mil and not at 8 what does that 2 mil do for ya? It does a lot potentially that 6 mil guy only costs 4 mil more on the payroll instead of the full 6. It lets everyone spin in the media that Frank took one for the team and as a result JR is gonna go out and upgrade the team so you can't look at it as wasting/not using 2 million.

Also one of the points being made by the EWING THEORY and I believe aren't being articulated too well by others is, that Frank has been historically known as being selfish and unapproachable in the clubhouse, holding out and often a crybaby. The point isn't who is going to replace Frank if they get rid of him, or if they can sign someone else to replace him, the point of the theory is that by getting rid of the guy that has been the "team leader" and hogging the spotlight, allows for others to step up as leaders or not worry about Frank coming down on them in the clubhouse or a variety of other things. The point is when you have a solid team behind a star and can't get over the hump, more often than not when you ditch the star, people step it up, play up to their potential or the team just clicks better as a whole.

This team is still relatively young, filled with great talent that has come up together through the minors (for the most case) and if you lose the grumpy old man maybe they'll step in and take some responsibility for the team.

maurice
09-17-2003, 02:27 PM
Look at how many championships the Knicks have won since they dumped Patrick Ewing!

:?:

bc2k
09-17-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Frank has scored more than 100 Runs nine times. He was not significantly faster in any of those years. In 1998, he scored 109 Runs, though his OBP was lower than his current OBP. The reason he scored more runs in 1998 was because the bats behind him were more consistently productive.

I do agree, however, that Frank eventually should move behind Maggs, if Maggs consistently matches or exceeds Frank's OBP.

With those stats, are you saying that Frank always ran station-to-station in his career, needing a double to advance two bases and could never go from first to third on a single? I can't recall this myself since I didn't have much knowledge of the game for most of the 90's.

maurice
09-17-2003, 02:51 PM
Frank has not noticably declined as a baserunner. He always had good straight-ahead speed once he got going but never accellerated quickly, which is not surprising for a man his size. He probably can advance from 1st to 3rd on a groundball through the right side, or from 2nd to home on most groundball singles. He's faster than Paulie (who isn't?) and maybe Crede, but it's really not fair to compare the quickness of an immense, 6'5 man to his significantly smaller teammates. Heck, Frank outweighs each of his teammates by 40+ pounds!

daveeym
09-17-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Look at how many championships the Knicks have won since they dumped Patrick Ewing!

:?:

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/010509.html

Read the article - it doesn't say championships. It says by raising the level of play by the team that loses the star and as a result, finally makes the playoffs, finally goes deep into the playoffs, finally makes the championship or finally wins the championship. Basically losing the player allows them to, at a minimum, get over the hump and take the next step that they haven't been able to make with said player.

Dadawg_77
09-17-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/010509.html

Read the article - it doesn't say championships. It says by raising the level of play by the team that loses the star and as a result, finally makes the playoffs, finally goes deep into the playoffs, finally makes the championship or finally wins the championship. Basically losing the player allows them to, at a minimum, get over the hump and take the next step that they haven't been able to make with said player.

The Sports guy does even take himself that serously. But what type pain is this season? Punch in the gut bad or worse?

maurice
09-17-2003, 03:02 PM
I'm familiar with Simmons' theory. The point is that Frank has taken the Sox to the playoffs. The next step is a championship. You don't win championships by subtracting one of your best players. The post-Ewing Knicks really suck. Even baseball teams that recently posted good records after losing great players (e.g., Oakland and Seattle) did not go on to win championships. Maybe that changes this year; maybe not. Until then, the Ewing Theory is just an unproven theory.

voodoochile
09-17-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Wrong he has grounded into 10 double plays. 6 with RISP



Give me a break here, how many of those are 1st inning home runs, I love em it gets them a lead, but don't even try to imply that 7-10 solo shots in the first inning is clutch or anything else.

Also, for the argument that you keep frank at 6 mil and not at 8 what does that 2 mil do for ya? It does a lot potentially that 6 mil guy only costs 4 mil more on the payroll instead of the full 6. It lets everyone spin in the media that Frank took one for the team and as a result JR is gonna go out and upgrade the team so you can't look at it as wasting/not using 2 million.

Also one of the points being made by the EWING THEORY and I believe aren't being articulated too well by others is, that Frank has been historically known as being selfish and unapproachable in the clubhouse, holding out and often a crybaby. The point isn't who is going to replace Frank if they get rid of him, or if they can sign someone else to replace him, the point of the theory is that by getting rid of the guy that has been the "team leader" and hogging the spotlight, allows for others to step up as leaders or not worry about Frank coming down on them in the clubhouse or a variety of other things. The point is when you have a solid team behind a star and can't get over the hump, more often than not when you ditch the star, people step it up, play up to their potential or the team just clicks better as a whole.

This team is still relatively young, filled with great talent that has come up together through the minors (for the most case) and if you lose the grumpy old man maybe they'll step in and take some responsibility for the team.

Yeah, homeruns in the first inning that give the team an early lead aren't "clutch"... *** does that mean? Doesn't an early lead take the pressure off the pitcher? Doesn't it give the team some momentum?

Personally, I recall the 2000 season when Frank was the only "old man" in the clubhouse and the team was tearing it up with Frank as a team leader. Then the team started tearing Frank down (most notably Paul Konerko - the current "leader") and the team has gone into the tank. This season Frank has been an outspoken leader again and the team is in a pennant race.

I think baseball is way different than basketball because of the number of players and the way the game is played. I doubt the theory carrys as much weight in a game where one superstar won't mean a playoff bid every year (see Texas).

bc2k
09-17-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by maurice


Frank has scored more than 100 Runs nine times. He was not significantly faster in any of those years. In 1998, he scored 109 Runs, though his OBP was lower than his current OBP. The reason he scored more runs in 1998 was because the bats behind him were more consistently productive.

I do agree, however, that Frank eventually should move behind Maggs, if Maggs consistently matches or exceeds Frank's OBP.


Originally posted by maurice
Frank has not noticably declined as a baserunner. He always had good straight-ahead speed once he got going but never accellerated quickly, which is not surprising for a man his size. He probably can advance from 1st to 3rd on groundballs through the right side, or from 2nd to home on most groundball singles. He's faster than Paulie (who isn't?) and maybe Crede, but it's really not fair to compare the quickness of an immense, 6'5 man to his significantly smaller teammates. Heck, Frank outweighs each of his teammates by 40+ pounds!

Since Frank's speed and baserunning skills have not noticably declined as you say, then your claim that Frank's dropoff in runs is caused by the lack of production from the men hitting behind him must be true - or at least be a logical hypothesis. While that is a reason for Frank's drop in runs, it is obvious that if Frank was a better baseruner he would score more runs.

I disagree with your statement that Frank can go from 1st to 3rd on a groundball through the right side, or from second to home on most groundball singles. Sure there are some exceptions, but from what I have seen, Frank overwhelmingly advances bases equal to the hitter behind him. Frank's excess weight is not a justifiable excuse for his poor, slow baserunning. Crede and Paulie are slower and don't run out balls as well as Frank does, but they don't belong in a discussion about Frank's baserunning.

Herm Schneider can help Frank lose weight and Steve Odgers can help Frank increase his quickness/explosiveness, thus allowing Frank, IMHO, to regularly advance from first base to third, and from second to home.

Concluding, Frank can control his run total by improving himself (baserunning skills), while he has no control over the batting success of the men hitting behind him.

gosox41
09-17-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Wrong he has grounded into 10 double plays. 6 with RISP



Give me a break here, how many of those are 1st inning home runs, I love em it gets them a lead, but don't even try to imply that 7-10 solo shots in the first inning is clutch or anything else.



Those first inning runs are just as valuable as the late clutch home runs you speak of. Since no one has a crytal ball to predict how many runs a team is going to need to win a given game, those runs scored early in a 5-4 game are just as valuable as the one's scored in the 9th inning.

This Frank bashing is ridiculous. Why not mention PK for only being a 1/2 player for the third year in a row. Maybe if he hit better then .185 the first half the Sox would have a 2-3 game lead right now. Or why not rip on PK for grounding into a clutch DP last night. He's done that a ton more times then Frank, and in less at bats.

Bob

bc2k
09-17-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Yeah, homeruns in the first inning that give the team an early lead aren't "clutch"... *** does that mean? Doesn't an early lead take the pressure off the pitcher? Doesn't it give the team some momentum?

Yes! is the answer to both your two quoted questions above. Though, those two questions do not define the word clutch.


Originally posted by gosox41


Those first inning runs are just as valuable as the late clutch home runs you speak of.

Absolutely true, the first inning home runs are just as valuable as the late home runs. That does not make Frank's first inning home runs clutch.

daveeym
09-17-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Those first inning runs are just as valuable as the late clutch home runs you speak of. Since no one has a crytal ball to predict how many runs a team is going to need to win a given game, those runs scored early in a 5-4 game are just as valuable as the one's scored in the 9th inning.

This Frank bashing is ridiculous. Why not mention PK for only being a 1/2 player for the third year in a row. Maybe if he hit better then .185 the first half the Sox would have a 2-3 game lead right now. Or why not rip on PK for grounding into a clutch DP last night. He's done that a ton more times then Frank, and in less at bats.

Bob

You're right they are just as valuable because it's a run crossing the plate so it's a worthless stat. Why's it matter if it's from a homerun or from a triple, double or single. It basically boils down to RBI's plain and simple.

maurice
09-17-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Herm Schneider can help Frank lose weight

Have you SEEN Herm Schneider?!? The man is completely round. I mean, he's very nearly as wide as he is tall! That's not a belt around his waist . . . it's the equator. He's so fat that when he sits around the house, he sits AROUND the house. The most Herm can offer anyone is a worthless magnetic bracelet. He even made Bo Jackson fat. Who would take medical advice from the poster child for quadruple bypass surgery?

Sorry, this post isn't intended to bash you, but this is the funniest thing I read all day. Thanks for the midafternoon laugh. I was kinda depressed, but I feel much better now.

:)

daveeym
09-17-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I think baseball is way different than basketball because of the number of players and the way the game is played. I doubt the theory carrys as much weight in a game where one superstar won't mean a playoff bid every year (see Texas).

Bingo, so losing Frank shouldn't effect the Sox that much.


I think they should keep Frank I just disagree with everyone who blindly follows the "All Hail Frank Mantra." There has only been 2 players in Chicago over the last 20 years that even deserve the type of loyalty and hype that this thread has displayed. #23 and #34

bc2k
09-17-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Have you SEEN Herm Schneider?!? The man is completely round. I mean, he's very nearly as wide as he is tall! That's not a belt around his waist . . . it's the equator. He's so fat that when he sits around the house, he sits AROUND the house. The most Herm can offer anyone is a worthless magnetic bracelet. He even made Bo Jackson fat. Who would take medical advice from the poster child for quadruple bypass surgery?

Sorry, this post isn't intended to bash you, but this is the funniest thing I read all day. Thanks for the midafternoon laugh. I was kinda depressed, but I feel much better now.

:)

I believe Herm had success with his weight by losing quite a few pounds about a year or two ago. He has since gained it back. Since he is currently overweight, all his intelligence in cardiovascular and weightlifting training has been pushed out of his brain to make room for more cheeseburgers. Fat people have no intelligence on diet and exercise, right maurice?

Way to kill the momentum of a nice discussion we were having about Frank's run totals. This discussion came to an abrupt halt, similar to the momentum-killing halt Frank does in front of opposing catchers instead of sliding.

Glad I could make your day. :)

daveeym
09-17-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I believe Herm had success with his weight by losing a lot of pounds about a year or two ago. He has since gained it back. Since he is currently overweight, all his intelligence in cardiovascular and weightlifting training has been pushed out of his brain to make room for more cheeseburgers. Fat people have no intelligence on diet and exercise, right maurice?

Way to kill a nice discussion we were having about Frank's run totals. This discussion came to an abrupt halt, similar to the halt Frank does in front of opposing catchers instead of sliding.

Holla! Everytime I see Frank do that it's so clear why he picked baseball over football. I don't want to see any catcher placed in the hospital but what a statement that would make if Frank would just tattoo a catcher and knock him out of a game.

JRIG
09-17-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by daveeym

Also one of the points being made by the EWING THEORY and I believe aren't being articulated too well by others is, that Frank has been historically known as being selfish and unapproachable in the clubhouse, holding out and often a crybaby. The point isn't who is going to replace Frank if they get rid of him, or if they can sign someone else to replace him, the point of the theory is that by getting rid of the guy that has been the "team leader" and hogging the spotlight, allows for others to step up as leaders or not worry about Frank coming down on them in the clubhouse or a variety of other things. The point is when you have a solid team behind a star and can't get over the hump, more often than not when you ditch the star, people step it up, play up to their potential or the team just clicks better as a whole.


This is ridiculous. Plain and simple. You don't get better by subtracting the best player on your team. I can't even respond any further because the argument is so non-sensical.

I'm also tired of Frank being portrayed as a pariah in the clubhouse. By my observations, Frank is one of the most approachable guys in the clubhouse. His teammates actually seem to like him (surprise!).

You can't logically knock him down through his stats, so now you want to argue that his attitude is making the team play worse than it should. Brilliant.

daveeym
09-17-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
This is ridiculous. Plain and simple. You don't get better by subtracting the best player on your team. I can't even respond any further because the argument is so non-sensical.

I'm also tired of Frank being portrayed as a pariah in the clubhouse. By my observations, Frank is one of the most approachable guys in the clubhouse. His teammates actually seem to like him (surprise!).

You can't logically knock him down through his stats, so now you want to argue that his attitude is making the team play worse than it should. Brilliant.

Again, blindly following Frank. If you want to argue your points and apply it to the thread don't quote one thing I wrote and out of context. I applied other arguments used against Frank to explain the Ewing theory. I have stated multiple times on this thread that I think we keep Frank (still think C. Lee is the MVP though) and I also agree that the general perception is that Frank has been a pleasure to be with in the clubhouse this year, but that's not to say that he has never caused problems in the past.

voodoochile
09-17-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Bingo, so losing Frank shouldn't effect the Sox that much.


I think they should keep Frank I just disagree with everyone who blindly follows the "All Hail Frank Mantra." There has only been 2 players in Chicago over the last 20 years that even deserve the type of loyalty and hype that this thread has displayed. #23 and #34

That's weak logic. Just because one superstar won't be enough to get the team to the playoffs, doesn't mean you can afford to let the ones you do have walk away.

RKMeibalane
09-17-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by idseer
oh give this one a rest. thomas doesn't wear a glove. he doesn't play a position and you're really stretching it to say he does. he fills a spot in the batting order and that's it. he does NOT play a position!

Keep something in mind here. Frank Thomas has said on numerous occasions that he wants to play first base. Yet Jerry Manuel refuses to put him out there. Manuel is the one who fills out the lineup card. Manuel is the one who continues to misuse players by deliberately putting them in a position to fail.

If there's any question as to Frank's value to the White Sox, remember this: Frank Thomas, when playing first base, puts up MVP numbers. Jerry Manuel filling out lineup cards and babbling inchorerently is replaceable. Those numbers put up by Thomas are not.

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Frank has not noticably declined as a baserunner. He always had good straight-ahead speed once he got going but never accellerated quickly, which is not surprising for a man his size. He probably can advance from 1st to 3rd on a groundball through the right side, or from 2nd to home on most groundball singles. He's faster than Paulie (who isn't?) and maybe Crede, but it's really not fair to compare the quickness of an immense, 6'5 man to his significantly smaller teammates. Heck, Frank outweighs each of his teammates by 40+ pounds!


Silence! There will be defending of Frank with your truths and well thought out observations! And if you even think about bringing in facts to this discussion again.....I'm coming to your house!

Only Hyperbole in this thread please...and if you could, please misspell words like so: For Frank's haters "Franks Sux" or if you like Frank "Big Hurt Rulzzz!"

Thank You

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Bingo, so losing Frank shouldn't effect the Sox that much.


I think they should keep Frank I just disagree with everyone who blindly follows the "All Hail Frank Mantra." There has only been 2 players in Chicago over the last 20 years that even deserve the type of loyalty and hype that this thread has displayed. #23 and #34

Frank is probably(and I say probably meaning "He is") the best hitter the White Sox have ever had.....and if I recall(could be wrong according to your great powers) that this is a White Sox message board, not Chicago Sports...could be wrong though

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Again, blindly following Frank. If you want to argue your points and apply it to the thread don't quote one thing I wrote and out of context. I applied other arguments used against Frank to explain the Ewing theory. I have stated multiple times on this thread that I think we keep Frank (still think C. Lee is the MVP though) and I also agree that the general perception is that Frank has been a pleasure to be with in the clubhouse this year, but that's not to say that he has never caused problems in the past.


Since we are arguing with anctedotes(man I cant spell that word)....What are the A's in the 1970s? Reggie Jackson? Hell, even Barry Bonds? Good thoughts and happy faces are super, but just get the run across the plate.

Well I agree that being poor in the clubhouse is a bad thing, even you seem to think "the general perception" is that he has been good in the clubhouse this year, which would seem to be a pretty important fact for this year, eh?

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Yes! is the answer to both your two quoted questions above. Though, those two questions do not define the word clutch.




Absolutely true, the first inning home runs are just as valuable as the late home runs. That does not make Frank's first inning home runs clutch.


You know, I'm going to agree with you here bc2k.....You have been an outspoken critic of Frank in the past, but you are right about the meaning of clutch....however if those early inning HR came with 2 out..would that not change your meaning?

Doesn't have to be Game 7, last bats, down a run, with a man on, to be clutch. But overall I think the thing to say would be that most of Frank's HR come in meaningful situations. IMO a first inning HR to put us up 1-0 is meaningful.....Not Sammy-esque, up or down 7 and your team is 15 games back in August types

Does Meaningful HR work better for you?

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why is that exactly? Has Frank refused to play the field? No, he has begged to play the field, but because Paulie has a more accurate arm (and that is it) Frank is relegated to DH.

Besides, like it or not, DH IS a legitmate position in the AL. You are twisting the definition through semantics, and not saying anthing...

No Vodoo...Frank doesn't play 1B because he is bad at it. He can't throw. He doesn't field bunts well. He is not mobile. He doesn't have a good stretch and he is not good at digging Valentin's crappy throws out of the dirt. Frank is not a DH because Jerry says he is. He is a DH because he is a very bad infielder. If he really wanted to be better, he'd get his happy a&& out there and take infield practice every single day until he was good enough to do it. Until you tell me you see him working on his defense, or losing enough weight to get back the flexibility he once had, I wont believe he should be at 1B.

And calling DH a legitimate position is a joke. ANYONE can "play" it. It is a spot in the lineup - yes, but it is not a position.

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Look at how many championships the Knicks have won since they dumped Patrick Ewing!

:?:

As many as they won with him...

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
With those stats, are you saying that Frank always ran station-to-station in his career, needing a double to advance two bases and could never go from first to third on a single? I can't recall this myself since I didn't have much knowledge of the game for most of the 90's.


I think some good points were pointed out.

Frank is not Juan Pierre out there, nor is he the slowest man on his own team either.

He is a good baserunner, though thats mainly smarts over talent(and by the way, when you hit a Home Run, you don't have to run that fast, and it doesn't matter what the guy behind you does)

Frank is still the same as he has been(in terms of shape, speed, etc) in ways which determine individual contributions to baserunning, and if anything his head is more into the game then it used to be.

Frank gets 1st to 3rd and 2nd to home in more situations than his detractors are willing to give him credit for, though this is open to debate.

Here's an important thought too: You can't score from the dugout, getting on base is part and parcel to scoring, so the original getting on base is the most important aspect a player brings to his ability to score a run

Scoring a Run (Importance)
1. Getting On Base
2. What Person behind you does(can be multiple people)
3. Baserunning Skills (Smarts, Speed, Jump, etc)

Frank is great at number 1, number 2 is not dependent on him, though having a runner on base should help the hitters behind him(in theory atleast), and for number 3, he is good at some aspects, not as good at others.....Still a "good" baserunner over all, and there things don't work in a vaccuum either, so I don't think getting him "better" with speed will be anything great, especially since you can make a good case it could be counterproductive and coupled with a lose in slugging numbers.

This discussion has led me to one conclusion: Trade Paulie:)

C. Lee can DH, Reed can play LF.....you save the infamous 8 million too

Everyone is happy

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
No Vodoo...Frank doesn't play 1B because he is bad at it. He can't throw. He doesn't field bunts well. He is not mobile. He doesn't have a good stretch and he is not good at digging Valentin's crappy throws out of the dirt. Frank is not a DH because Jerry says he is. He is a DH because he is a very bad infielder. If he really wanted to be better, he'd get his happy a&& out there and take infield practice every single day until he was good enough to do it. Until you tell me you see him working on his defense, or losing enough weight to get back the flexibility he once had, I wont believe he should be at 1B.

And calling DH a legitimate position is a joke. ANYONE can "play" it. It is a spot in the lineup - yes, but it is not a position.

Man, its like arguing with Churchill over here ...

Digging throws out of the dirt is very much open to debate, but calling Jose's throws crappy pretty much shows bias already, rather than an objective analysis.

He does take fielding practice and has stated his preference to play the field...so how can you fault him there? Foolish

Not mobile? In this thread alone it has already been ceded that he is faster than Paulie....Who plays 1B if Frank doesn't? Paulie for the most part, so a good comparison is there....mobility should not be considered a problem

"Can't Throw".....Can he literally not throw? Does he kick the ball back to the pitcher after a put out? Is he below average at starting a double play? Yes Does that mean he can literally never do it? No Below-Average does not equal Can Not

PLEASE....someone answer this...I have asked multiple times in this thread alone : How important is a 1B's throwing ability? How often does the situation come up where is needed? And then out of those chances how many is Frank going to mess up more than the average 1b(Konerko)? How much does this cost us? Because many contend that not playing first hurts Frank's hitting, which hurts us night in, night out.....SO if the trade off is saving an extra run a MONTH, for worse hitting EVERY night, for some reason I just can't see the logic

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That's weak logic. Just because one superstar won't be enough to get the team to the playoffs, doesn't mean you can afford to let the ones you do have walk away.

Hey TB and the Tigers played well without players the caliber of Frank........

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
No Vodoo...Frank doesn't play 1B because he is bad at it. He can't throw. He doesn't field bunts well. He is not mobile. He doesn't have a good stretch and he is not good at digging Valentin's crappy throws out of the dirt. Frank is not a DH because Jerry says he is. He is a DH because he is a very bad infielder. If he really wanted to be better, he'd get his happy a&& out there and take infield practice every single day until he was good enough to do it. Until you tell me you see him working on his defense, or losing enough weight to get back the flexibility he once had, I wont believe he should be at 1B.

And calling DH a legitimate position is a joke. ANYONE can "play" it. It is a spot in the lineup - yes, but it is not a position.


Also, how many outs does Frank simply being taller get you?

On high throws it matters

Daver
09-17-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by RichH55


PLEASE....someone answer this...I have asked multiple times in this thread alone : How important is a 1B's throwing ability? How often does the situation come up where is needed? And then out of those chances how many is Frank going to mess up more than the average 1b(Konerko)? How much does this cost us? Because many contend that not playing first hurts Frank's hitting, which hurts us night in, night out.....SO if the trade off is saving an extra run a MONTH, for worse hitting EVERY night, for some reason I just can't see the logic

I speculated in a column not to long ago that the number of games won on a 1B defensive play is probably very similar to the number of Grizzly Bears killed by Racoons on a yearly basis.

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
This is ridiculous. Plain and simple. You don't get better by subtracting the best player on your team. I can't even respond any further because the argument is so non-sensical.

1) Frank is not the best player on the team. I'd say Mags and Lee are both better.
2) It is a question of economics. Nobody is saying that they want to get rid of Frank and that we would be better off without him. They are saying that if Frank choses to not come back for 6,000,000 do we want to pay him 8,000,000 or can that 8,000,000 be used better elsewhere given our limited funds.
3) You have to look at what your options are in the lineup. Let's say we resign Frank for $8,000,000, what is the opportunity cost of that? Is it Colon? Is it Tejada?
4) Can we find someone who plays the position of DH as well as Frank can defensively (chuckle) and is a lesser calibre hitter for $500,000 so we can spend the 7,500,000 on someone else and be a better ballclub?

ILLUSTRATIONS (approximate $$$ please don't hold me to them...)
Frank + Valentin = 12 MM
Daubach + Tejada = 12MM
Valentin + Colon + a lower end DH = 12MM

OR
Frank + Graffanino = 11 MM
Alomar + Colon = 12MM

OR

Frank = 8,000,000
Everett + Alomar + a DH = 8,000,000

Guys, nobody is saying dump Frank, he sucks... People are saying that for 8,000,000 there are lots of things we can do. Our budget is limited. Should Kenny tie it up in Frank when we have so many holes as a ballclub?

(Please don't tell me to get rid of Konerko and Koch to free up $12,000,000 because you guys know that isn't happening. Nobody will just take those contracts from us without saddling us with their crap.)

idseer
09-17-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Also, how many outs does Frank simply being taller get you?

On high throws it matters



i feel like ripley's copy in aliens four when she tells ripley ...
"ki-i-i-ll me-e .... kki-ill me-e-e!

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
No Vodoo...Frank doesn't play 1B because he is bad at it. He can't throw. He doesn't field bunts well. He is not mobile. He doesn't have a good stretch and he is not good at digging Valentin's crappy throws out of the dirt. Frank is not a DH because Jerry says he is. He is a DH because he is a very bad infielder. If he really wanted to be better, he'd get his happy a&& out there and take infield practice every single day until he was good enough to do it. Until you tell me you see him working on his defense, or losing enough weight to get back the flexibility he once had, I wont believe he should be at 1B.

And calling DH a legitimate position is a joke. ANYONE can "play" it. It is a spot in the lineup - yes, but it is not a position.

ANYONE can "play" any position....one of the main points of the Frank supporters is that he is really really good at the job of DH and his salary is good for the ballclub using basic cost-benefit anaylsis.

And Hitting is roughly half the game? DH takes up a batting slot, usually high in the order? Having a better DH than the other team, without taking up a ridiculous amount of the team salary is a "competetive advantage" over the other team...Plus Frank can also play 1B, so he does give you options

DH doesn't do anything defensively, but it is a "position" to be filled, and it plays every day and is usually an intergral part of the lineup

If you don't like the DH rule, thats all well and good, many people don't....To downplay its importance is foolhardy

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I speculated in a column not to long ago that the number of games won on a 1B defensive play is probably very similar to the number of Grizzly Bears killed by Racoons on a yearly basis.


POTW already for this one Daver, or can you be elegible a second time?

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Digging throws out of the dirt is very much open to debate, but calling Jose's throws crappy pretty much shows bias already, rather than an objective analysis.

Biased? I am TOTALLY BIASED...No Doubt... Are you telling me you don't think Valentin is a crappy defensive SS? He is well below average and having him requires our 1B to dig. That's just how it is.

He does take fielding practice and has stated his preference to play the field...so how can you fault him there? Foolish

He doesn't take fielding practice every day. And he still is no good. I am not faulting him. I just dont want a bad 1B playing there defensively.

Not mobile? In this thread alone it has already been ceded that he is faster than Paulie....Who plays 1B if Frank doesn't? Paulie for the most part, so a good comparison is there....mobility should not be considered a problem

Are you kidding me? Running from base to base is very different than fielding. Speed and Mobility are two very different things. Frank is faster, base to base than Konerko - no doubt. But in terms of the 6 feet around him, Frank is not a good 1B. Konerko ranges better, stretches better and gets to more balls than Frank does. That's why he plays there every day. JM doesn't put him there just because he likes him....

"Can't Throw".....Can he literally not throw? Does he kick the ball back to the pitcher after a put out? Is he below average at starting a double play? Yes Does that mean he can literally never do it? No Below-Average does not equal Can Not

That's foolishness. You know EXACTLY what I mean - I am going to leave it at that.

PLEASE....someone answer this...I have asked multiple times in this thread alone : How important is a 1B's throwing ability? How often does the situation come up where is needed? And then out of those chances how many is Frank going to mess up more than the average 1b(Konerko)? How much does this cost us? Because many contend that not playing first hurts Frank's hitting, which hurts us night in, night out.....SO if the trade off is saving an extra run a MONTH, for worse hitting EVERY night, for some reason I just can't see the logic

It isn't just about making a throw. It is about fielding your position. Frank can't do it. (Do you want to debate the meaning of the word can't? We can also debate the meaning of the words "is" "sexual relations" and "truth" if you want, but I don't think that is the point here) If Frank was a good enough defender, he'd be out there.

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Also, how many outs does Frank simply being taller get you?

On high throws it matters

Cuz Frank's catlike defensive skills where he leaps and catches balls? Geez...I don't remember a single time this season where he got to a ball that was thrown so high that Konerko couldn't get to it. Do you? Throws, more often than not, are in the dirt, not over the 1B head. (at least since Steve Sax is out of baseball)

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
1) Frank is not the best player on the team. I'd say Mags and Lee are both better.
2) It is a question of economics. Nobody is saying that they want to get rid of Frank and that we would be better off without him. They are saying that if Frank choses to not come back for 6,000,000 do we want to pay him 8,000,000 or can that 8,000,000 be used better elsewhere given our limited funds.
3) You have to look at what your options are in the lineup. Let's say we resign Frank for $8,000,000, what is the opportunity cost of that? Is it Colon? Is it Tejada?
4) Can we find someone who plays the position of DH as well as Frank can defensively (chuckle) and is a lesser calibre hitter for $500,000 so we can spend the 7,500,000 on someone else and be a better ballclub?

ILLUSTRATIONS (approximate $$$ please don't hold me to them...)
Frank + Valentin = 12 MM
Daubach + Tejada = 12MM
Valentin + Colon + a lower end DH = 12MM

OR
Frank + Graffanino = 11 MM
Alomar + Colon = 12MM

OR

Frank = 8,000,000
Everett + Alomar + a DH = 8,000,000

Guys, nobody is saying dump Frank, he sucks... People are saying that for 8,000,000 there are lots of things we can do. Our budget is limited. Should Kenny tie it up in Frank when we have so many holes as a ballclub?

(Please don't tell me to get rid of Konerko and Koch to free up $12,000,000 because you guys know that isn't happening. Nobody will just take those contracts from us without saddling us with their crap.)

Then wouldn't your questions be Frank or others? How about Paulie? Paul will make more money than Frank (most likey) ...so why would you point any venom at Frank?

Mags is going to make roughly double what Frank will make next year....I love Mags and he is a great great player.....Is he double the player Frank is?

Everett makes more money than Frank right now, for worse numbers....His crazy ass is gone, especially considering he plays iffy D at a spot where D does matter, and Borchard and Reed are both OF which should give you good production out of the OF slot and save you alot of money.


Frank outperforms his contract...why would you single out him for someone to get rid of?


And the Daubach argument was always in regards to Paulie....IE you can get similar production to Konerko for 500 K...You wont get 45 HR and 100 walks for it(Not for a FA at least)

Sure signing guys who are cheap and produce is a good idea...but that goes more toward understanding replacement values...IE dont sign Konerko long term for 8 per.....

Allowing one bad decesion on finances (Paulie) to be the reason to make another bad one (getting rid of Frank) is bad business.

And I still think Frank will wind up getting 6 million next year

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Cuz Frank's catlike defensive skills where he leaps and catches balls? Geez...I don't remember a single time this season where he got to a ball that was thrown so high that Konerko couldn't get to it. Do you? Throws, more often than not, are in the dirt, not over the 1B head. (at least since Steve Sax is out of baseball)

I believe it happened just this week where Konerko didn't come off the bag so the ball went over his head...He could have caught it, but he would have had to be off the bag.

Most high throws aren't 20 feet over the guys head...and oh yeah...1B defense doesnt matter anyway, so I was nitpicking to show the absurdity of the argument, but I guess that went over your head like so many throws to Konerko

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
ANYONE can "play" any position....one of the main points of the Frank supporters is that he is really really good at the job of DH and his salary is good for the ballclub using basic cost-benefit anaylsis.


And with that tidbit...I am done arguing with you.

Anyone can "play" any position...geez...

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
And with that tidbit...I am done arguing with you.

Anyone can "play" any position...geez...

I took the Anyone can "play" line directly from your post...Did your own logic actually offend you?

Its like waking yourself up with gas, and then being angry at your spouse for the smell

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Then wouldn't your questions be Frank or others? How about Paulie? Paul will make more money than Frank (most likey) ...so why would you point any venom at Frank?


1) the discussion was about Frank - not Paulie
2) Paulie is under contract
3) I said, don't tell me lets get rid of Koch and Konerko - I'd love to, but it isn't possible. Unless we trade them - and nobody will take on those contracts.

Do you even read my posts or do you just flame for no reason?

Done...peace...out....

JRIG
09-17-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by RichH55

Frank outperforms his contract...why would you single out him for someone to get rid of?


Bingo.

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I took the Anyone can "play" line directly from your post...Did your own logic actually offend you?

Its like waking yourself up with gas, and then being angry at your spouse for the smell

Yeah...anyone can play DH...

No....Anyone can not play any position...listen to yourself Rich.... You aren't making sense.

jabrch
09-17-2003, 07:54 PM
I Gotta go...


GO WHITE SOX!!!!!!!!!

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Biased? I am TOTALLY BIASED...No Doubt... Are you telling me you don't think Valentin is a crappy defensive SS? He is well below average and having him requires our 1B to dig. That's just how it is.



He doesn't take fielding practice every day. And he still is no good. I am not faulting him. I just dont want a bad 1B playing there defensively.



Are you kidding me? Running from base to base is very different than fielding. Speed and Mobility are two very different things. Frank is faster, base to base than Konerko - no doubt. But in terms of the 6 feet around him, Frank is not a good 1B. Konerko ranges better, stretches better and gets to more balls than Frank does. That's why he plays there every day. JM doesn't put him there just because he likes him....



That's foolishness. You know EXACTLY what I mean - I am going to leave it at that.



It isn't just about making a throw. It is about fielding your position. Frank can't do it. (Do you want to debate the meaning of the word can't? We can also debate the meaning of the words "is" "sexual relations" and "truth" if you want, but I don't think that is the point here) If Frank was a good enough defender, he'd be out there.

I was arguing semantics, mainly because we are talking about the difference between Konerko and Frank defensively...and while I cede the point that Paul is better, I don't think it is a landslide.

When the hell did Konerko become Keith Hernandez out there?

My point, as always, is based on the thinking that Frank hits better when he plays 1B...and since I don't think the difference between Konerko and Thomas is all that great, nor do I think 1B defense is terribly important, the fact that Thomas hits better when he plays 1B(be it psycho-somatic or whatever) trumps any positives putting Paulie in the field does

RichH55
09-17-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Yeah...anyone can play DH...

No....Anyone can not play any position...listen to yourself Rich.... You aren't making sense.

Anyone can play any position.....playing it well would be a different argument :cool: The argument was often that with Edgar's imminent retirement, Frank should be the "BEST" DH out there....different than having Graffy DH, you know?

bc2k
09-17-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
You know, I'm going to agree with you here bc2k.....You have been an outspoken critic of Frank in the past, but you are right about the meaning of clutch....however if those early inning HR came with 2 out..would that not change your meaning?

Doesn't have to be Game 7, last bats, down a run, with a man on, to be clutch. But overall I think the thing to say would be that most of Frank's HR come in meaningful situations. IMO a first inning HR to put us up 1-0 is meaningful.....Not Sammy-esque, up or down 7 and your team is 15 games back in August types

Does Meaningful HR work better for you?

Great comparison between Sosa and Thomas.

I value everyone of Frank's first inning home runs and completely agree with your suggestion of calling them meaningful home runs as opposed to clutch.

RichH55
09-17-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
1) the discussion was about Frank - not Paulie
2) Paulie is under contract
3) I said, don't tell me lets get rid of Koch and Konerko - I'd love to, but it isn't possible. Unless we trade them - and nobody will take on those contracts.

Do you even read my posts or do you just flame for no reason?

Done...peace...out....

I do read your posts....and since when does Frank's contract situation exist in a vaccuum? Frank can be back even if the Sox don't want him either, true?

And we almost dealt Paulie to Baltimore (when he was still absolutely brutal), so why do we assume he can't be moved? Hundley was moved this last year and he is the definition of the overpayed contract

And my point was that Frank is outperforming his contract...those are the guys it makes the most sense to hold onto.

Everett will be gone, to be replaced by a cheap minor league alternative....I think most of the roster intrigue will have to do with SS/2B in terms of how much money we have to work with, so that is why those things get brought in when talking about Frank's contract(and the like)

RichH55
09-17-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Great comparison between Sosa and Thomas.

I value everyone of Frank's first inning home runs and completely agree with your suggestion of calling them meaningful home runs.

All it takes is a little Sosa bashing to get agreement:)

Anyone got that Sosa photo with the green eyes? Classic

RichH55
09-17-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Cuz Frank's catlike defensive skills where he leaps and catches balls? Geez...I don't remember a single time this season where he got to a ball that was thrown so high that Konerko couldn't get to it. Do you? Throws, more often than not, are in the dirt, not over the 1B head. (at least since Steve Sax is out of baseball)

If Frank is not catlike, does that make Konerko catlike? How would you rate them in relation to each other....very important for the argument of who should be out there everyday

ANd please answer this: Assuming the numbers arent lying about Frank hitting better when he plays 1B instead of DH....Do you think that Konerko's better defensive play as you percieve it offsets the Oppurtunity Cost of losing that extra hitting?

JRIG
09-17-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
All it takes is a little Sosa bashing to get agreement:)

Anyone got that Sosa photo with the green eyes? Classic

Here you go --

:nandrolone

RichH55
09-17-2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Yeah...anyone can play DH...

No....Anyone can not play any position...listen to yourself Rich.... You aren't making sense.

Mark McGwire - 2B

RichH55
09-17-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Here you go --

:nandrolone

Ask and ye shall recieve

voodoochile
09-17-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
No Vodoo...Frank doesn't play 1B because he is bad at it. He can't throw. He doesn't field bunts well. He is not mobile. He doesn't have a good stretch and he is not good at digging Valentin's crappy throws out of the dirt. Frank is not a DH because Jerry says he is. He is a DH because he is a very bad infielder. If he really wanted to be better, he'd get his happy a&& out there and take infield practice every single day until he was good enough to do it. Until you tell me you see him working on his defense, or losing enough weight to get back the flexibility he once had, I wont believe he should be at 1B.

And calling DH a legitimate position is a joke. ANYONE can "play" it. It is a spot in the lineup - yes, but it is not a position.

It's not a defensive position, but it is a position on AL teams, period. You can't make it otherwise by saying so.

Frank has a good a glove at 1B as Paulie does. Paulie has a better arm. You can't make me believe othewise by saying so either.

jabrch
09-18-2003, 09:01 AM
No time/energy for this today...I am way too busy with work and way too disappointed in games 1 and 2 vs Minn. However, let me try and clarify. By no means was I diefying Konerko's defense. All I was saying is that this team will have a salary somewhere withing 5-10 MM of last years starting salary. Alomar will probably cost about 3MM. Raises to Lee, Mags and some other players under contract will eat the rest up. Thomas has the choice to stay - and we will gladly keep him. But if he chooses to put the pressure back on the team, then we have decisions to make. He, along with Colon are the only big $ FAs we have.

Would I rather see Frank than Paulie - hell ya. But Paulie is under contract. Nobody wants that contract. It would take a Henryesque miracle to unload Konerko. Someone said Baltimore almost took him - I don't think that deal was as close as Hawk wanted to believe cuz they got a heck of a lot more from SFO. If we could get rid of PKs deal, I am more than happy to keep Frank. If not, and we have a choice between Colon and Frank, I just don't see how we can keep Frank and go with a crapshoot at our 4th starter just like our 5th. Sure - maybe KW can pull another Esteban out of his hat. I am not betting on that either.

David Ortiz went to Boston for 1.25 MM. He is a FA after this season. Who would you rather have...Frank and Danny Wright or Ortiz and Colon? Those are the economic realities that we face guys. I wish it were not so. I wish Frank was able to stay. AND HE IS. But only if he chooses to. (and by choosing to, I think it puts us in a position where we have serious troubles with our SP unless Schoenweiss goes home during the offseason and comes back Loaizaesque).


Nothing personal guys - you know that....I am just so disappointed right now... It hurts.

GO SOX

idseer
09-18-2003, 11:50 AM
there was discussion earlier in this thread about thomas's contract and what it would cost to retain him, or what we would be saving by not resigning.

$6mil if he chooses to remain. good price.
$8mil if we choose to pick up his option.

but i read where if he doesn't wish to stay and if we don't wish to retain him he then has to pay a $2mil buyout. is this correct?

if so this changes the look of the deal a lot. now we're talking about saving $10 mil if he doesn't stay. does that change anyone's opinion about whether he's worth keeping?

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by idseer
there was discussion earlier in this thread about thomas's contract and what it would cost to retain him, or what we would be saving by not resigning.

$6mil if he chooses to remain. good price.
$8mil if we choose to pick up his option.

but i read where if he doesn't wish to stay and if we don't wish to retain him he then has to pay a $2mil buyout. is this correct?

if so this changes the look of the deal a lot. now we're talking about saving $10 mil if he doesn't stay. does that change anyone's opinion about whether he's worth keeping?

That sounds awfully screwy. Frank has to decide first and if he doesn't take his option and then the team rejects him, he has to pay THEM $2M?

Can anyone confirm this?

Paulwny
09-18-2003, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That sounds awfully screwy. Frank has to decide first and if he doesn't take his option and then the team rejects him, he has to pay THEM $2M?

Can anyone confirm this?

I also read this, see if I can find it.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-18-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That sounds awfully screwy. Frank has to decide first and if he doesn't take his option and then the team rejects him, he has to pay THEM $2M?

Can anyone confirm this?

From the author of the diminishing skills clause...

:reinsy
"I am the master of mind games, aren't I?"

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I also read this, see if I can find it.

If it is true, then Frank will DEFINITELY take his option. I don't think he can afford the $2M from what I have read about his finances.

Paulwny
09-18-2003, 12:04 PM
STAYING FOCUSED: Despite an upcoming decision regarding his contract, Frank Thomas said he is only thinking about baseball. Thomas can activate a $6 million option and remain with the team or decline it and leave the Sox to decide if they want him to return for $8 million.

If both parties decline, Thomas can pay a $2 million buyout and become a free agent.

''I have the option to look elsewhere if I want to,'' he said. ''That's just something I earned by signing that contract. It's not the right time to even be talking about that right now. We'll talk about that when the season is over and when the World Series is over.''

It's located at the bottom of the article

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug181.html

idseer
09-18-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
That sounds awfully screwy. Frank has to decide first and if he doesn't take his option and then the team rejects him, he has to pay THEM $2M?

Can anyone confirm this?

i'm sorry. i should have given the link.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug181.html

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
STAYING FOCUSED: Despite an upcoming decision regarding his contract, Frank Thomas said he is only thinking about baseball. Thomas can activate a $6 million option and remain with the team or decline it and leave the Sox to decide if they want him to return for $8 million.

If both parties decline, Thomas can pay a $2 million buyout and become a free agent.

''I have the option to look elsewhere if I want to,'' he said. ''That's just something I earned by signing that contract. It's not the right time to even be talking about that right now. We'll talk about that when the season is over and when the World Series is over.''

It's located at the bottom of the article

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug181.html

That has to be the strangest thing I've ever seen...

Gumshoe
09-18-2003, 02:23 PM
The guy who was posting was right on. The ewing theory is indirectly what I've been saying for a long time, AND I think Frank is going ot decline, anyway. The point is, once and for all:

The White Sox will be better off WITHOUT Frank Thomas

It adds versatility, it adds a more cohesive team, even if they lose OFFENSE. Voodoo, forget numbers for now. The fact that we are discussing his stupid mental games and contracts that are incomprehensible goes to show you something. That is, Frank has always been a great hitter, but at any given time his mental is so easily shaken. It's not worth the risk. Get him out, and we'll win quicker.

I'm done forever on this thread.

Gumshoe

daveeym
09-18-2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Man, its like arguing with Churchill over here ...

Digging throws out of the dirt is very much open to debate, but calling Jose's throws crappy pretty much shows bias already, rather than an objective analysis.

He does take fielding practice and has stated his preference to play the field...so how can you fault him there? Foolish

Not mobile? In this thread alone it has already been ceded that he is faster than Paulie....Who plays 1B if Frank doesn't? Paulie for the most part, so a good comparison is there....mobility should not be considered a problem

"Can't Throw".....Can he literally not throw? Does he kick the ball back to the pitcher after a put out? Is he below average at starting a double play? Yes Does that mean he can literally never do it? No Below-Average does not equal Can Not

PLEASE....someone answer this...I have asked multiple times in this thread alone : How important is a 1B's throwing ability? How often does the situation come up where is needed? And then out of those chances how many is Frank going to mess up more than the average 1b(Konerko)? How much does this cost us? Because many contend that not playing first hurts Frank's hitting, which hurts us night in, night out.....SO if the trade off is saving an extra run a MONTH, for worse hitting EVERY night, for some reason I just can't see the logic


Man this thread is getting out of control - but YES throwing is important. 1st basemen take cuts to the plate from center and right field. Also, watch Randall Simon turn the 3-6-3 double play - how HUGE is that - Frank can't do it. And speed and mobility are two ENTIRELY different things. Frank may have more speed but does not have more mobility than konerko.

voodoochile
09-18-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
Man this thread is getting out of control - but YES throwing is important. 1st basemen take cuts to the plate from center and right field. Also, watch Randall Simon turn the 3-6-3 double play - how HUGE is that - Frank can't do it. And speed and mobility are two ENTIRELY different things. Frank may have more speed but does not have more mobility than konerko.

*****! On a scale of 1-10 in terms of importance, a first baseman's arm is about a 1.5, his glove is a 6 and his hitting is a 10.

Frank's bat is way better than the other options on the team.

His glove is as good or better (when factoring in his ability to make scoops and his footwork around the bag).

His arm is the only part of the game he is noticeably worse at.

RKMeibalane
09-18-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
*****! On a scale of 1-10 in terms of importance, a first baseman's arm is about a 1.5, his glove is a 6 and his hitting is a 10.

Frank's bat is way better than the other options on the team.

His glove is as good or better (when factoring in his ability to make scoops and his footwork around the bag).

His arm is the only part of the game he is noticeably worse at.

The Frank-haters are getting desperate. First, they were complaining about his attitude. Second, it was the fact that he didn't hit the ball to rightfield. Now, they're bitching and moaning because he can't throw. I've got news for them- Paul Konerko can't throw, either, but he gets to play wherever he wants because he's on Manuel's "A List."

:hitless

"I was on that list, too."

Gumshoe
09-18-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The Frank-haters are getting desperate. First, they were complaining about his attitude. Second, it was the fact that he didn't hit the ball to rightfield. Now, they're bitching and moaning because he can't throw. I've got news for them- Paul Konerko can't throw, either, but he gets to play wherever he wants because he's on Manuel's "A List."

:hitless

"I was on that list, too."


All 3 of the first part are good points. I'm only posting because the last is RIDICULOUS. Paulie makes the 1b-2B throw as well as any regular 1B, and he just did it a game ago? Seriously, Do you watch the GAMES?

Gumshoe

RichH55
09-18-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
All 3 of the first part are good points. I'm only posting because the last is RIDICULOUS. Paulie makes the 1b-2B throw as well as any regular 1B, and he just did it a game ago? Seriously, Do you watch the GAMES?

Gumshoe


Well nice that you are back on the thread "you are done with forever"


BUT as I have asked at least 4 times now....How important is 1B D in general? YOu refuse to answer.,....I'm going with Daver's theory.....A subquestion would be how many times does a first baseman's arm come into play, how many runs is that going to cost you over the course of a year? 3? And this assumes Frank's arm is bad, not non-existant....If the hitter is a guy like Konerko, you have all day to turn that 3-6-3

RKMeibalane
09-21-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
All 3 of the first part are good points. I'm only posting because the last is RIDICULOUS. Paulie makes the 1b-2B throw as well as any regular 1B, and he just did it a game ago? Seriously, Do you watch the GAMES?

Gumshoe

I watch the games when I have the chance. I don't live in the Chicago area, so I don't have the opportunity to watch every game.

To answer your question, though, even if Konerko makes the throw without a problem, is that really a sufficient reason to keep Frank at DH? I don't think so.

Shaquille O'Neal can't make free-throws. Does that mean that Phil Jackson should keep him on the bench for the entire fourth quarter?

A good coach or manager finds a way to live with player's weaknesses. Manuel isn't smart enough to do this, so he tries to avoid dealing with them entirely.

RichH55
09-21-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I watch the games when I have the chance. I don't live in the Chicago area, so I don't have the opportunity to watch every game.

To answer your question, though, even if Konerko makes the throw without a problem, is that really a sufficient reason to keep Frank at DH? I don't think so.

Shaquille O'Neal can't make free-throws. Does that mean that Phil Jackson should keep him on the bench for the entire fourth quarter?

A good coach or manager finds a way to live with player's weaknesses. Manuel isn't smart enough to do this, so he tries to avoid dealing with them entirely.

Excellent analogy.....Actuate(sic) the positive....play to your strengths...these are long held maxims for a reason