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View Full Version : Sox trying to sign Robbie Alomar to an extension!


Champ Summers
09-14-2003, 01:58 PM
Check rotoworld.com, first it was 1 year, Alomar wants two, KW is trying his damnedest to overpay for too long I'm sure...I don't like it...

jabrch
09-14-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Champ Summers
Check rotoworld.com, first it was 1 year, Alomar wants two, KW is trying his damnedest to overpay for too long I'm sure...I don't like it...

You don't see too many Sox games do you? I'd be happy to have Robby for two years. This guy has been the heart of the team - defensively - since he has gotten here. He has made Valentin look better. He has made Crede look better. He has made Paulie look better. Two years is not a Julio Cruz type deal. Robby doesn't want 12mm per. He just wants a fair deal to stay here with Sandy. I'd be thrilled to keep him.

JRIG
09-14-2003, 04:06 PM
I'm not sure if bringing him back is the best thing to do. However, at this point, there just aren't a ton of options. It seems that Alomar isn't looking to break the bank. In a perfect world, no. But in this world Alomar, even with his declining skills, might be the best option.

Daver
09-14-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'm not sure if bringing him back is the best thing to do. However, at this point, there just aren't a ton of options. It seems that Alomar isn't looking to break the bank. In a perfect world, no. But in this world Alomar, even with his declining skills, might be the best option.

Would you rather see Willie Harris trot out there everyday?

He is the only other option.

39thandWallace
09-14-2003, 04:25 PM
We need Robbie on this team, he brings a lot to the table.

JRIG
09-14-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Would you rather see Willie Harris trot out there everyday?

He is the only other option.

Exactly. And that's the problem. And any other free agent worth a damn will probably ask for more money than Alomar.

RKMeibalane
09-14-2003, 05:08 PM
I'd love to see Alomar brought back for next year. Looking at the way this team has performed since the start of the second half, it would be interesting to see what the current core group of players could do if they were together for an entire season.

MarkEdward
09-14-2003, 05:14 PM
Well, if Alomar is brought back for two years, it better be for a very cheap price (like a million or lower). Robbie's still has a pretty good OBP, but he no longer has any pop in his bat (even while playing in the Cell, a hitter-friendly park).

Of course, by trading away Jimenez, we are left with no other options at second for next year (I'm assuming Graffanino will start at short next year). If it comes down to either keeping Colon or Alomar for next year, I'd rather have Bartolo.

MHOUSE
09-14-2003, 05:17 PM
Sign him up now. 2 years sounds about right and from what I've heard Robbie isn't asking for too much. Do it KW!

mike squires
09-14-2003, 05:26 PM
I agree, sign him!!! Alomar could fill in nicely for 2 years plus they could use him for prmotional stuff like Baines, Skowrin etc. (Sox fest and possibly even a coach. Our farm system is looking pretty weak at this point.

voodoochile
09-14-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Well, if Alomar is brought back for two years, it better be for a very cheap price (like a million or lower). Robbie's still has a pretty good OBP, but he no longer has any pop in his bat (even while playing in the Cell, a hitter-friendly park).

Of course, by trading away Jimenez, we are left with no other options at second for next year (I'm assuming Graffanino will start at short next year). If it comes down to either keeping Colon or Alomar for next year, I'd rather have Bartolo.

$1M or less? That completely ignores the economic realities of baseball. You have go to be kidding...

duke of dorwood
09-14-2003, 05:46 PM
He stabilized the infield, is in good shape and 2 years is NOT too much. We've been a different team with him

JRIG
09-14-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
He stabilized the infield, is in good shape and 2 years is NOT too much. We've been a different team with him

See "Koch, Billy" and the fat 2-year contract we gave to him before this season began. We're on the hook for another $6 million for a dead pitcher next year.

voodoochile
09-14-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
See "Koch, Billy" and the fat 2-year contract we gave to him before this season began. We're on the hook for another $6 million for a dead pitcher next year.

Oh come on... You aren't honestly suggesting that Alomar is going to have a collapse like that are you?

Besides, he won't get that kind of contract. Not even close, IMO.

JRIG
09-14-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh come on... You aren't honestly suggesting that Alomar is going to have a collapse like that are you?

Besides, he won't get that kind of contract. Not even close, IMO.

Fans around here ignored Koch's high walk totals and mediocre seasons before 2002, impressed by his blazing fastball and high save totals.

Fans around here generally ignore Alomar's utter lack of power, his inabilty to get on base the past two seasons, and his poor hitting in an great's hitter's park because he's a flashy defensive player and "does the little things right."

Yes, I think Alomar could have a collapse like Koch's in the next two years.

LuvSox
09-14-2003, 06:17 PM
Good. Sign him. He's the best second baseman this team has seen in a loooooooooooong time.

MisterB
09-14-2003, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Fans around here ignored Koch's high walk totals and mediocre seasons before 2002, impressed by his blazing fastball and high save totals.

Fans around here generally ignore Alomar's utter lack of power, his inabilty to get on base the past two seasons, and his poor hitting in an great's hitter's park because he's a flashy defensive player and "does the little things right."

Yes, I think Alomar could have a collapse like Koch's in the next two years.

As your facts suggest, Alomar has already had his collapse. The difference is Alomar is still useful at his current level of production , whereas Koch is not. And NO ONE is going to give Robbie the kind of contract that we gave Koch, including us.

Brian26
09-14-2003, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
$1M or less? That completely ignores the economic realities of baseball. You have go to be kidding...

I laughed out loud at that one too. You can't get Donn Pall to come talk to your Little League team for 30 minutes for a million these days. Alomar will need a lot more money than that.

Still, he's openly said he'll play for less to stay here. This is a no-brainer, Hahn. Sign him.

JRIG
09-14-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by LuvSox
Good. Sign him. He's the best second baseman this team has seen in a loooooooooooong time.

Yeah. Since last year. When Ray Durham was here.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-14-2003, 06:25 PM
Rooney and Farmer have repeatedly noted how much better the infield defense has been since Alomar arrived. They've noted a marked improvement in Valentin's play at shortstop and attribute it to Alomar, too.

I'm guessing Rooney and Farmer make lousy roto league managers.

:smile:

Brian26
09-14-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Yeah. Since last year. When Ray Durham was here.

You're joking, right? Durham was much better than DJ, but don't ever think Ray Ray's god-given ability will ever make him anything more than a slightly-better-than-average player. His lack of intelligence was pretty apparent over his career here, and he will never have the brains to be a great player. Mental lapses on the field and at the plate define Durham. What Alomar doesn't have talent-wise, he makes up with brains. Players like that are special. Durham's not one of those players.

LuvSox
09-14-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Yeah. Since last year. When Ray Durham was here.

Uh, no. I'm thinking like Nellie Fox.

JRIG
09-14-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
You're joking, right? Durham was much better than DJ, but don't ever think Ray Ray's god-given ability will ever make him anything more than a slightly-better-than-average player. His lack of intelligence was pretty apparent over his career here, and he will never have the brains to be a great player. Mental lapses on the field and at the plate define Durham. What Alomar doesn't have talent-wise, he makes up with brains. Players like that are special. Durham's not one of those players.

No offense, but you must be joking if you think "mental lapses" define a player more than his offensive and defensive contributions. Durham had an OPS over .800 every year with the Sox from '98 til the time he was traded. In that span his OBP was over .360 every year but 2001 and his SLG was around .450- every year. Not to mention that he stole 35 bases a year as well.

This year, in an extreme pitcher's park of Pac Bell, he's hitting .283/.363/.424 blowing away Alomar's numbers with the Sox.

Durham is a great player highly unerappreciated in his time here in Chicago.

OEO Magglio
09-14-2003, 07:19 PM
No offense, but you must be joking if you think "mental lapses" define a player more than his offensive and defensive contributions.
Mental lapses can lose teams ball games that they are suppost to win, look no further then d'angelo, he' a pretty descent offensive player but his mental lapses in the field and on the base paths cost the sox a couple games this year.

RKMeibalane
09-14-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Mental lapses can lose teams ball games that they are suppost to win, look no further then d'angelo, he' a pretty descent offensive player but his mental lapses in the field and on the base paths cost the sox a couple games this year.

Exactly. There are plenty of examples throughout Major League Baseball of talented players who have little or understanding of how to actually play the game. Jimenez is one such example.

The reverse is true, as well. Consider a player like David Eckstein. In terms of physicals gifts and natural talent, he doesn't have much more than the average person, yet he has become a good player because he understands the fundamentals of baseball. Tony Graffanino is another example.

A smart player who works hard may not put up the numbers that a more talented player would, but he's probably a more reliable player, based on the fact that he won't do anything to shoot his own team in the foot.

flo-B-flo
09-14-2003, 07:25 PM
Robbie Alomar at this point in his career is still head and shoulders above Ray Ray. Once again the numbers craze clouds the ability to THINK and play baseball. KW, please resign him. Our young minor league infielders could use R Alomar's expertise as to how you are supposed to act and react out there.

jeremyb1
09-14-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Would you rather see Willie Harris trot out there everyday?

He is the only other option.

First of all, lets note that that situation is not a random occurance. Trading Hummel and Jimenez while choosing to keep Harris, didn't happen by itself. KW completely rid this team of its depth at second base unless anyone actually thinks Harris can get the job done.

I would agree with the poster that pointed out, Alomar has already had his Billy Koch episode. He's a shadow of the player he was with Cleveland. I disagree that he's still highly useful. I won't knock the man's defense or lockerroom presence but by virtually any statistical measure his offensive production is below league average. No good.

JRIG
09-14-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Exactly. There are plenty of examples throughout Major League Baseball of talented players who have little or understanding of how to actually play the game. Jimenez is one such example.

The reverse is true, as well. Consider a player like David Eckstein. In terms of physicals gifts and natural talent, he doesn't have much more than the average person, yet he has become a good player because he understands the fundamentals of baseball. Tony Graffanino is another example.

A smart player who works hard may not put up the numbers that a more talented player would, but he's probably a more reliable player, based on the fact that he won't do anything to shoot his own team in the foot.

First of all, guys like Eckstein and Graffanino have a ton more talent than the average person. It's is so incredibly difficult to play baseball at the major league level.

I'm understanding that "guy who knows how to play the game" or "guy who does the little things well" is usually code for "guy who can't get on base or hit for power, but I still like him because he hustles." Guys, hustling is not the end all and be all of baseball. It's like Hawk's obsession with little guys who run fast (i.e. Ramon Nivar, Chone Figgins). There's a lot more to the game than looking like you're trying hard.

TornLabrum
09-14-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
First of all, guys like Eckstein and Graffanino have a ton more talent than the average person. It's is so incredibly difficult to play baseball at the major league level.

I'm understanding that "guy who knows how to play the game" or "guy who does the little things well" is usually code for "guy who can't get on base or hit for power, but I still like him because he hustles." Guys, hustling is not the end all and be all of baseball. It's like Hawk's obsession with little guys who run fast (i.e. Ramon Nivar, Chone Figgins). There's a lot more to the game than looking like you're trying hard.

In the case of Alomar vs. Durham or Jimenez, it's more of a case of not getting thrown out on a fairly consistent basis because of stupid baserunning blunders.

soxtalker
09-14-2003, 08:23 PM
While I'm not opposed to signing Alomar, I am concerned about his skills diminishing. Also, he's played fine when coming from a team that was clearly out of the race to one that was still in it (which he contributed to). He might not do so well if we aren't in the thick of things in the next two years. So there is downside risk, and I sure hope that any contract is structured with incentives.

I guess that I'm not too worried about the problem right now. I question the assumption that there are no other choices out there if we don't resign Alomar. We don't seem to have many other options in our organization currently. However, if Alomar and the Sox can't come to an agreement, I bet that KW will make a deal to bring someone here.

Win1ForMe
09-14-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
$1M or less? That completely ignores the economic realities of baseball. You have go to be kidding...

Hate to break it to you, but the economic realities of baseball are that the big spending days, outside of the elite crop of free agents, are over. Look at Boston with Millar, Ortiz, and Mueller. Those guys total about $5 Million this year and are FAR MORE productive than Alomar offensively. I don't know who would pay him anything over that $1M? A team is essentially paying for his glove and some intangibles...

Brian26
09-14-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
In the case of Alomar vs. Durham or Jimenez, it's more of a case of not getting thrown out on a fairly consistent basis because of stupid baserunning blunders.

Exactly. AND, anyone who's watched any Sox games this year sees the kind of plays Alomar can make at second with those soft hands....plays that Ray and DJ couldn't make it their dreams. Alomar saves so many runs by doing the little things at second that Ray just couldn't do.

FarWestChicago
09-14-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Exactly. AND, anyone who's watched any Sox games this year sees the kind of plays Alomar can make at second with those soft hands....plays that Ray and DJ couldn't make it their dreams. Alomar saves so many runs by doing the little things at second that Ray just couldn't do. :ray

So what if Robbie can catch a ball hit more than 5 feet from him. I did pretty well for a human fire hydrant. Besides, I have Warning Track Power!!

jabrch
09-14-2003, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
First of all, lets note that that situation is not a random occurance. Trading Hummel and Jimenez while choosing to keep Harris, didn't happen by itself. KW completely rid this team of its depth at second base unless anyone actually thinks Harris can get the job done.

I would agree with the poster that pointed out, Alomar has already had his Billy Koch episode. He's a shadow of the player he was with Cleveland. I disagree that he's still highly useful. I won't knock the man's defense or lockerroom presence but by virtually any statistical measure his offensive production is below league average. No good.

What's with you and Jimenez Jeremy? I don't get it. This guy has been tossed out of every organization he has been a part of because baseball people know that he isn't any good when it comes to doing the little things that teams need to win. And Hummell - geez - he is so far from Alomar it is sick...

Harris is fine utility player - but nobody wants him starting anymore than most of us would want D'Angelo or Hummell.

You want a FA - Vidrio and Grudzalanek are available.

longshot7
09-14-2003, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
You're joking, right? Durham was much better than DJ, but don't ever think Ray Ray's god-given ability will ever make him anything more than a slightly-better-than-average player. His lack of intelligence was pretty apparent over his career here, and he will never have the brains to be a great player. Mental lapses on the field and at the plate define Durham. What Alomar doesn't have talent-wise, he makes up with brains. Players like that are special. Durham's not one of those players.

you are wrong.

Bobby Thigpen
09-15-2003, 08:23 AM
Please KW, sign Alomar. He's one of those guys who improves everyone around him with his play. Defense, offense, everything. This guy is entirely too valuable to let go. Besides that we have no other option.

I don't particularly like either of the Alomars, but Robbie is one of the kind of players I think you need to keep around to make everyone else better. For God's sake with him around Jose went 31 games without an error. I don't think that is a coincidence.

Dadawg_77
09-15-2003, 10:32 AM
While Robbie might save a few more runs then Ray did with his glove, Ray creates a lot more runs with his bat then Robbie does. So I would want Ray.

I think DJ is a castoff for clubhouse issues not baseball issues. From what I hear, he just may be hard to get along with and teams tend to shuffle non star players who can't get along in the clubhouse.

Hangar18
09-15-2003, 10:43 AM
Since Alomar and Everett have come here, theres a slightly different Vibe with these guys, theyre adding to the overall Playoff Killer Instinct (though missing occasionally on some nites)
Since Alomar has gotten here, hes made some spectacular plays, and played some very smart baseball. I like that hes got adequate speed still (though not like when he was 21) and His Defense, you can tell, Is IMMEASURABLE. Man do I really appreciate how good the guys been all these years. I have a good friend who is a big time INdians fan, and he admitted that now that the Tribe is out of it, He is rooting for the SOX to go all the way because of the Brothers Alomar (me being a sox fan had something to do with this too) I told him i knew he was good defensively, but now that I watch him every day, man im glad hes here. He gushed and said Told You So, said Im going to fall in love with his play. Keep him for 2, sign him cheap. im all for it

MarkEdward
09-15-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
$1M or less? That completely ignores the economic realities of baseball. You have go to be kidding...

I'm not really kidding. I don't want to pay premium for a player who may put up .260/.330/.330 numbers. Keith Ginter's hitting .269/.362/.438 and he's only making $300,000. It's very easy to find a player who'll hit like Alomar for under a million bucks.

MetalliSox
09-15-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I'm not really kidding. I don't want to pay premium for a player who may put up .260/.330/.330 numbers. Keith Ginter's hitting .269/.362/.438 and he's only making $300,000. It's very easy to find a player who'll hit like Alomar for under a million bucks.

Can Keith Ginter play 2nd base like Robbie has?

There are intangibles Alomar has brought that you can not use any stat to explain.

voodoochile
09-15-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I'm not really kidding. I don't want to pay premium for a player who may put up .260/.330/.330 numbers. Keith Ginter's hitting .269/.362/.438 and he's only making $300,000. It's very easy to find a player who'll hit like Alomar for under a million bucks.

I agree, Heck, Willie Harris might be able to put up .250/.330/.330 numbers next year, or the year after that, but that isn't all Alomar brings. A veteran leader with Alomar's status and drawing power means something to a team beyond their stats.

That is what I meant by realities of baseball economics.

MisterB
09-15-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I'm not really kidding. I don't want to pay premium for a player who may put up .260/.330/.330 numbers. Keith Ginter's hitting .269/.362/.438 and he's only making $300,000. It's very easy to find a player who'll hit like Alomar for under a million bucks.

Keith Ginter hasn't hit arbitration yet let alone free-agency, so comparing his salary to a veteran FA means very little. Players aren't paid according to a mathematical formula based on their stats, and the stats don't measure experience, professionalism, and understanding of the game's fundamentals. Sure, we could stick Willie Harris at second base for league minimum, and he might even put up numbers close to Robbie's current ones, but Willie's never won one Gold Glove let alone multiple ones, never had playoff experience let alone been in a World Series, and hasn't had 10+ years of major league games played. I think statistics are a valid tool in the evaluating of performance, but this isn't Strat-O-Matic they're playing out there. There's a world of stuff that happens in a game and over the course of a season that never shows up as a statistic. I'm sure Robbie knows he's not a multi-million dollar player anymore, but offering league minimum for his level of experience is an insult.

JRIG
09-15-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Keith Ginter hasn't hit arbitration yet let alone free-agency, so comparing his salary to a veteran FA means very little. Players aren't paid according to a mathematical formula based on their stats, and the stats don't measure experience, professionalism, and understanding of the game's fundamentals. Sure, we could stick Willie Harris at second base for league minimum, and he might even put up numbers close to Robbie's current ones, but Willie's never won one Gold Glove let alone multiple ones, never had playoff experience let alone been in a World Series, and hasn't had 10+ years of major league games played. I think statistics are a valid tool in the evaluating of performance, but this isn't Strat-O-Matic they're playing out there. There's a world of stuff that happens in a game and over the course of a season that never shows up as a statistic. I'm sure Robbie knows he's not a multi-million dollar player anymore, but offering league minimum for his level of experience is an insult.

If, say, Willie Harris could go out next year and put up numbers similar to what Robbie is putting up right now (which wouldn't be that difficult) that would save approximately 4.7 million dollars (assuming Robbie would ask for about $5 million). That money could be the difference between keeping Carlos Lee or waiving him goodbye because of his pending arbitration case. Or, that $4.7 million could allow the team to re-sign Colon.

If you want to argue that Alomar's "experience" is worth $4.7 million or Carlos Lee or Bartolo Colon, I'm not sure how many would agree. Then again, judging by some of the posts around here, maybe people do value experience that much.

voodoochile
09-15-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
If, say, Willie Harris could go out next year and put up numbers similar to what Robbie is putting up right now (which wouldn't be that difficult) that would save approximately 4.7 million dollars (assuming Robbie would ask for about $5 million). That money could be the difference between keeping Carlos Lee or waiving him goodbye because of his pending arbitration case. Or, that $4.7 million could allow the team to re-sign Colon.

If you want to argue that Alomar's "experience" is worth $4.7 million or Carlos Lee or Bartolo Colon, I'm not sure how many would agree. Then again, judging by some of the posts around here, maybe people do value experience that much.

I don't know if he gets that much and it may depend on his willingness to compromise to stay in Chicago - which he says he is willing to do.

It may also depend on what other teams want him and how much they are willing to pay. I would take him back for 2 years $7M total, but don't know if that would cut it or not. Much more than that, I would want the Sox to find someone else to play the position. They might go with Valentin at SS and Graff at 2B if that is the case...

shane
09-15-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
You don't see too many Sox games do you? I'd be happy to have Robby for two years. This guy has been the heart of the team - defensively - since he has gotten here. He has made Valentin look better. He has made Crede look better. He has made Paulie look better. Two years is not a Julio Cruz type deal. Robby doesn't want 12mm per. He just wants a fair deal to stay here with Sandy. I'd be thrilled to keep him.

I totally agree. Robby's more than welcome to stay a couple of more years.

shane
09-15-2003, 03:43 PM
If people are expecting Robbie to go on offensive stastics alone, Valentin isn't exactly much better. Robbie's job is to get on base, and those numbers are just as good as Valentin's numbers. You shouldn't expect your leadoff hitter to hit 30 HR in a year. You should expect them to get on base. Robbie is struggling a bit, but he has the potential to shine in the post-season. I think Valentin serves much the same purpose as Frank and someone like Robbie. Veteran leadership and assistance is priceless for the younger guys. If Robbie is only worth $1M, than how could someone possibly think Valentin is worth $5M. Honestly, Robbie's place on this team has improved the infield's defense, and it may be the difference in Valentin's defense. I know Valentin sure looks better than he used to. I think both of them should stay around for a couple of more years, and then hopefully, someone has begun to stand out at SS in the minors, or we hire a good SS. You will not replace SS and 2nd with good players for less than $10M. I'm sure you can find SS/2nd combinations that don't cost $10M, but if they're doing a great job, we won't get them for that price.

jeremyb1
09-15-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
What's with you and Jimenez Jeremy? I don't get it. This guy has been tossed out of every organization he has been a part of because baseball people know that he isn't any good when it comes to doing the little things that teams need to win. And Hummell - geez - he is so far from Alomar it is sick...

Harris is fine utility player - but nobody wants him starting anymore than most of us would want D'Angelo or Hummell.

You want a FA - Vidrio and Grudzalanek are available.

Ok. First we have the wonderful appeal to the expertise of those in baseball yet again. Since other people traded Jimenez he's worthless. Just like how Todd Ritchie is better than Wells and Fogg, right? If we can't ever hope to attain the knowledge of those in baseball when it comes to personel moves, I'm not sure what the point of this board is.

Then we have the argument that Jimenez isn't good at "the little things that teams need to win." Its my belief that to win teams need to score more runs that they allow which you do offensively by refraining from making outs by getting on base a skill Jimenez definitely possesses. Explain to me how Jimenez runs the team out of enough outs to negate his on base skills using quantatative analysis and I'll reconsider.

voodoochile
09-15-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Ok. First we have the wonderful appeal to the expertise of those in baseball yet again. Since other people traded Jimenez he's worthless. Just like how Todd Ritchie is better than Wells and Fogg, right? If we can't ever hope to attain the knowledge of those in baseball when it comes to personel moves, I'm not sure what the point of this board is.

Then we have the argument that Jimenez isn't good at "the little things that teams need to win." Its my belief that to win teams need to score more runs that they allow which you do offensively by refraining from making outs by getting on base a skill Jimenez definitely possesses. Explain to me how Jimenez runs the team out of enough outs to negate his on base skills using quantatative analysis and I'll reconsider.

Oh, is Jimenez available next year? Hmmm... okay... maybe the Sox should consider him...

Can we at least deal in possible second baseman and get over the past?

A.T. Money
09-15-2003, 04:49 PM
DUH-angelo was GARBAGE. Just thinking about him makes me shudder. I hope he stays in the National League.

HE STUNK!!!

shane
09-15-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
You want a FA - Vidrio and Grudzalanek are available.

Vidro is signed through 2004 and will come with a price tag between 10M and 15M per year, probably closer to 15M if the Expos get settled down. It could be argued that their travel schedule has had some part in his recent offensive struggles. He will be at the top of every team's list when available. He's a great player, no doubt about it, but I don't know that he's worth double, possibly triple Robbie's salary. We would probably lose a favorite or two to take on that kind of salary at 2nd base. I would rather spend 15M at SS than 2nd.

MarkEdward
09-15-2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I agree, Heck, Willie Harris might be able to put up .250/.330/.330 numbers next year, or the year after that, but that isn't all Alomar brings. A veteran leader with Alomar's status and drawing power means something to a team beyond their stats.

That is what I meant by realities of baseball economics.

Well, I guess I can't really argue with you on the whole "veteran leadership" thing. About the drawing power comment though: are fans just coming to see Alomar, or are they coming to see the Sox because they're winning? I'd take the latter. Will more fans come to see an aging Alomar or a successful Sox team?


Originally posted by MisterB
[B]

Keith Ginter hasn't hit arbitration yet let alone free-agency, so comparing his salary to a veteran FA means very little.

Yes, but that wasn't really my point. Ginter was a waiver claim and therefore acquired for (more or less) nothing. There are other players like him who could be had for nothing to produce better than Alomar.

Players aren't paid according to a mathematical formula based on their stats, and the stats don't measure experience, professionalism, and understanding of the game's fundamentals.

And that's exactly why some players are overpaid. When Derek Bell and Pat Meares were signed to their ridiculous contracts, I'm sure Cam Bonifay said they brought "experience, professionalism, and understanding of the game's fundamentals" to Pittsburgh. Look where that kind of thinking got the Pirates.

And it's not like we're losing all of our veterans next year. Thomas, Ordonez, Konerko, Buehrle, and Loaiza will all be back next year (maybe even Colon).

I'm sure Robbie knows he's not a multi-million dollar player anymore, but offering league minimum for his level of experience is an insult.

Well, whether Robbie likes it or not, he will get payed more than 6.5 million next year (according to arbitration law). That's a big chunk o' change for a declining player.

jabrch
09-15-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by shane
Vidro is signed through 2004 and will come with a price tag between 10M and 15M per year, probably closer to 15M if the Expos get settled down


No way... Vidro doesnt go for more money than Tejada...Come on... That's sillytalk.

Daver
09-15-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward

Well, whether Robbie likes it or not, he will get payed more than 6.5 million next year (according to arbitration law). That's a big chunk o' change for a declining player.

Your wrong on this.

He has to be offered and accept arbitration for that rule to be binding,he is free to sign with the Sox at any price he wants to if he signs before the arbitration deadline.

That would be why the Sox are negotiating with him now rather than wait till the season is over.

jabrch
09-15-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Ok. First we have the wonderful appeal to the expertise of those in baseball yet again. Since other people traded Jimenez he's worthless. Just like how Todd Ritchie is better than Wells and Fogg, right? If we can't ever hope to attain the knowledge of those in baseball when it comes to personel moves, I'm not sure what the point of this board is.

Then we have the argument that Jimenez isn't good at "the little things that teams need to win." Its my belief that to win teams need to score more runs that they allow which you do offensively by refraining from making outs by getting on base a skill Jimenez definitely possesses. Explain to me how Jimenez runs the team out of enough outs to negate his on base skills using quantatative analysis and I'll reconsider.

Jeremy,
When 3 MLB GMs who are very well regarded as talent evaluators give up on a guy, that is enough different opinions from baseball experts to satisfy me. I believe this point of this board is something other than "to attain the knowledge of those in baseball when it comes to personel moves"

To win, teams do need to score more runs than they allow. Alomar does both of those things. 1) He scores runs and 2) He stops the opponent from scoring. I think he does both at a level above where Jimenez played. With the Sox, Jimenez was a .255 hitter. .332 OBP and a .410 slg. He had 9 errors in 309 chances. Alomar is hitting .256, .336 and .350 - virtually the same stats right? In 252 chances he has made 3 errors. Statistically, quantitatively, he is a better player. Their offense is equal and Alomar, statistically is a better defenseive player.

Now, in kind, lets look at the non-quantitative areas. Look at baserunning. I don't have a stat of number of times thrown out on the basepaths. you may - if you do - please share. But Jimenez was a bad baserunner. I don't have a stat for balls they got to, but I can tell you from watching games that Alomar gets to balls that Jimenez watches. I don't have a stat for how much better they make their infield mates, but Valentin has 17 errors. I cant tell you how many were made prior to the Alomar acquisition, but it was more than he has made since, I promise you that.

Top that off with the fact that, and you can't stick this in your calculator, but you do need to take it into account when building any kind of team, his teammates didn't like him. When we got Sullivan, his teammates CRIED that they traded him. When we got Jimenez, nobody shed a tear. That's telling...I know a stathead doesn't understand that, but if you play team sports, you'd know the value of having teammates that you are willing to run through walls for rather than having ones that you want to throw over walls.

I haven't heard anybody that misses D'Angelo Jimenez that is involved with this club in any way. And from talking to a few of the players that I know - they love having Robby around.

LuvSox
09-15-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by A.T. Money
DUH-angelo was GARBAGE. Just thinking about him makes me shudder. I hope he stays in the National League.

I hope he comes back to the AL, like with Minny or KC :D:

JRIG
09-15-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
No way... Vidro doesnt go for more money than Tejada...Come on... That's sillytalk.

If I were a GM, I'd pay more for Vidro. Bogus MVP award aside, Tejada is not a SUPERSTAR. Vidro hits a ton a doubles, has good pop, and gets on base at a 38% clip.

Going back to '99, Vidro has outslugged Tejada in 4 of the 5 years, the exception being last season.

I'm sure someone will overpay for Tejada, though.

shane
09-15-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
No way... Vidro doesnt go for more money than Tejada...Come on... That's sillytalk.

Vidro won't go for more money than Tejada, but I would certainly pay more for him. They don't come much more streaky than Tejada, whereas you can count on Vidro to hit day in and day out. It's hard to say what Tejada would do in a lineup with Frank, Maggs and Carlos, but I know you could count on Vidro to hit a double or two. With a man on 2nd, bottom of the ninth with 2 outs, I would much rather see Vidro come up to bat than Tejada. As for shortstop, I'd take Florida's Alex Gonzales for much less money than a superstar. He's only getting better and there's a ton of potential. Tejada will get between 15M and 20M per year. He's a heck of lot better than Jeter, so don't think he won't demand more money.

Here's an idea. Since nobody seems to care about defense or leadership, how about Soriano. He's a terrible 2nd baseman, but he can dazzle with the bat and speed. Sucks in the post-season too!!

Dadawg_77
09-15-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by shane
Vidro won't go for more money than Tejada, but I would certainly pay more for him. They don't come much more streaky than Tejada, whereas you can count on Vidro to hit day in and day out. It's hard to say what Tejada would do in a lineup with Frank, Maggs and Carlos, but I know you could count on Vidro to hit a double or two. With a man on 2nd, bottom of the ninth with 2 outs, I would much rather see Vidro come up to bat than Tejada. As for shortstop, I'd take Florida's Alex Gonzales for much less money than a superstar. He's only getting better and there's a ton of potential. Tejada will get between 15M and 20M per year. He's a heck of lot better than Jeter, so don't think he won't demand more money.

Here's an idea. Since nobody seems to care about defense or leadership, how about Soriano. He's a terrible 2nd baseman, but he can dazzle with the bat and speed. Sucks in the post-season too!!

I would love Soriano, but not as a leadoff hitter. I would put him down in at six or seven in the lineup.

MisterB
09-15-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
And that's exactly why some players are overpaid. When Derek Bell and Pat Meares were signed to their ridiculous contracts, I'm sure Cam Bonifay said they brought "experience, professionalism, and understanding of the game's fundamentals" to Pittsburgh. Look where that kind of thinking got the Pirates.

I have no idea what Bonifay was thinking with those signings, but neither Bell nor Meares had careers worthy of Hall of Fame consderation at the time those deals were signed.

MarkEdward
09-15-2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Daver


Your wrong on this.

He has to be offered and accept arbitration for that rule to be binding,he is free to sign with the Sox at any price he wants to if he signs before the arbitration deadline.

That would be why the Sox are negotiating with him now rather than wait till the season is over.

Thank you for the clarification.

I don't know what kind of guy Alomar is, but I can't see him taking a 75% pay cut when he can just accept arbitration and collect much more than that. But this is all just specualtion...


Originally posted by MisterB


I have no idea what Bonifay was thinking with those signings, but neither Bell nor Meares had careers worthy of Hall of Fame consderation at the time those deals were signed.

No they weren't, but Alomar can no longer put up those HOF-caliber numbers. So instead of paying the Hall of Famer Robbie, we'd be paying for the declining Robbie.

bc2k
09-15-2003, 11:18 PM
I keep hearing about this guy Bill James in discussions dealing with stats. Forgive my ignorance, but who is he? What team did he play for? And when did he play?

jabrch
09-15-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
I don't know what kind of guy Alomar is, but I can't see him taking a 75% pay cut when he can just accept arbitration and collect much more than that. But this is all just specualtion...


I doubt the Sox would offer him arbitration...If he doesn't want to resign for significantly less than he is now making, he will have to go elsewhere as a FA.

RichH55
09-16-2003, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by shane
Vidro won't go for more money than Tejada, but I would certainly pay more for him. They don't come much more streaky than Tejada, whereas you can count on Vidro to hit day in and day out. It's hard to say what Tejada would do in a lineup with Frank, Maggs and Carlos, but I know you could count on Vidro to hit a double or two. With a man on 2nd, bottom of the ninth with 2 outs, I would much rather see Vidro come up to bat than Tejada. As for shortstop, I'd take Florida's Alex Gonzales for much less money than a superstar. He's only getting better and there's a ton of potential. Tejada will get between 15M and 20M per year. He's a heck of lot better than Jeter, so don't think he won't demand more money.

Here's an idea. Since nobody seems to care about defense or leadership, how about Soriano. He's a terrible 2nd baseman, but he can dazzle with the bat and speed. Sucks in the post-season too!!

The economics of baseball has changed....and if Vidro gets anywhere near 20 million a year, I will buy you a steak.....until then you need to go back to the proverbial research gym and retrain....We are talking Rocky-esque after the loss to Mr. T...Just regrettable posting

RichH55
09-16-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Thank you for the clarification.

I don't know what kind of guy Alomar is, but I can't see him taking a 75% pay cut when he can just accept arbitration and collect much more than that. But this is all just specualtion...




No they weren't, but Alomar can no longer put up those HOF-caliber numbers. So instead of paying the Hall of Famer Robbie, we'd be paying for the declining Robbie.

I honestly don't think arbitration will be on the Alomar radar....it shouldnt get to that point. 2 years at 7 million total (3 this year 4 next) is liveable. Gordon at 2.5 would be nice as well....Pretty much figure that Sullivan's option wont be picked up

StillMissOzzie
09-16-2003, 01:26 AM
I don't see the Sox offering Robbie arbitration either. Maybe the Sox will let him test the free agent waters and let some other teams try to define the market price. Then again, he may be willing to take something less than the best offer available in order to play for a contender. Ah, the age-old dilemna for veteran players in the twilight of their career - to take less than top dollar to play for a contender, or just go for the biggest bucks to be the backup 2B for a team going nowhere. I think it all depends on who else is interested in Robbie and at what price.

SMO
:gulp:

shane
09-16-2003, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
The economics of baseball has changed....and if Vidro gets anywhere near 20 million a year, I will buy you a steak.....until then you need to go back to the proverbial research gym and retrain....We are talking Rocky-esque after the loss to Mr. T...Just regrettable posting

Go ahead and read the post next time. The point of the post is that Vidro is worth more than Tejada. Nor does it mention that Vidro will be getting near 20M. Will Tejada get near 20M? Somebody probably will overpay him and give him that. I would see Vidro going for around 12-13M if he has a big year next year.

jeremyb1
09-16-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Oh, is Jimenez available next year? Hmmm... okay... maybe the Sox should consider him...

Can we at least deal in possible second baseman and get over the past?

What do you want me to do? Say it was a good move to trade an above average offensive second basemen for a non-prospect simply because we did it? Again, you don't see me starting "Bring back D'angelo" threads on a daily basis. People start threads discussing the move and I offer my opinion.

voodoochile
09-16-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
What do you want me to do? Say it was a good move to trade an above average offensive second basemen for a non-prospect simply because we did it? Again, you don't see me starting "Bring back D'angelo" threads on a daily basis. People start threads discussing the move and I offer my opinion.

No, people bring up a discussion of available Sox options at 2B next year and you bring up Jimenez. Read the title of the thread, please.

SouthBendSox
09-18-2003, 12:22 AM
hmmm

hes bad now

he was bad last year

what will he be next year?

then the next?

y'all are insane

HafDawg2003
09-23-2003, 10:07 AM
OK listen, Alomar is one helluva player. Sure, his numbers are down... but lets take a look at the ONE thing that turned this team around... Chemistry. When Alomar came (not Everett as much) the team rallied around him and they started WINNING. If the team sees this guy as such an insipration, I'd pay 1.5 mil to keep him around...

JRIG
09-23-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by HafDawg2003
OK listen, Alomar is one helluva player. Sure, his numbers are down... but lets take a look at the ONE thing that turned this team around... Chemistry. When Alomar came (not Everett as much) the team rallied around him and they started WINNING. If the team sees this guy as such an insipration, I'd pay 1.5 mil to keep him around...

Yep, that "chemistry" sure did turn this team around...all the way into a possible third place finish. And why didn't Alomar's magic "chemistry" work in his two years in New York?

Sorry, I'll take "production" on the field over "chemistry" any day.

That said, your head is in the right place. $1.5 million for Alomar is not a terrible deal. Anything more and we're walking on thin ice.

34 Inch Stick
09-23-2003, 10:54 AM
1.5 for one Alomar or 2 for 2 million.

harwar
09-23-2003, 10:58 AM
I'm wondering what luis castillo would cost.Hes' like Alomar was in his prime,without the power.

MarkEdward
09-23-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by HafDawg2003
OK listen, Alomar is one helluva player. Sure, his numbers are down... but lets take a look at the ONE thing that turned this team around... Chemistry. When Alomar came (not Everett as much) the team rallied around him and they started WINNING. If the team sees this guy as such an insipration, I'd pay 1.5 mil to keep him around...

The Sox turned it around in the second half because Konerko and Crede started hitting like major leaguers. I'd also say Everett helped more than Alomar.