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moochpuppy
09-12-2003, 02:56 PM
Cubs' ticket scam of '03 looks very familiar

September 11, 2003

BY GREG COUCH SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST


Full Column (http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg111.html)

Season-ticket holders had to pay up Wednesday for playoff tickets. One e-mailer said his tickets usually are $25 a game. The Cubs charged him $1,355 for his two seats for what could be 10 postseason games, including the World Series.

He was OK with the price hike but was upset by this line on the sheet the Cubs sent him:

''If the Cubs are eliminated from postseason contention before playoff tickets are mailed, we will automatically credit your payment to your 2004 season-ticket account.''

The Cubs will hold his money until January, when it's time to pay for next year's tickets? Why should the Cubs be the ones earning interest on his money? White Sox season-ticket holders were given the option of getting a refund.

Do the math: The Cubs sold roughly 15,300 season tickets. If this e-mailer's $67.75 per postseason ticket is the average, then the Cubs basically will be sticking their most loyal fans for a $10.2million interest-free loan for four months. At the current prime rate, that would mean skimming nearly $140,000 in interest on money that's not theirs.

jabrch
09-12-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
Cubs' ticket scam of '03 looks very familiar

September 11, 2003

BY GREG COUCH SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST


Full Column (http://www.suntimes.com/output/couch/cst-spt-greg111.html)

Season-ticket holders had to pay up Wednesday for playoff tickets. One e-mailer said his tickets usually are $25 a game. The Cubs charged him $1,355 for his two seats for what could be 10 postseason games, including the World Series.

He was OK with the price hike but was upset by this line on the sheet the Cubs sent him:

''If the Cubs are eliminated from postseason contention before playoff tickets are mailed, we will automatically credit your payment to your 2004 season-ticket account.''

The Cubs will hold his money until January, when it's time to pay for next year's tickets? Why should the Cubs be the ones earning interest on his money? White Sox season-ticket holders were given the option of getting a refund.

Do the math: The Cubs sold roughly 15,300 season tickets. If this e-mailer's $67.75 per postseason ticket is the average, then the Cubs basically will be sticking their most loyal fans for a $10.2million interest-free loan for four months. At the current prime rate, that would mean skimming nearly $140,000 in interest on money that's not theirs.


And this surprises you how exactly? (I know it doesn't...) The Trib treats Cubs fans like crap...The Cubs fans like it, encourage it, and allow it. They get what they deserve. If we had ownership like that, we'd only have 20,000 fans a game. (wait...we have ownership that is like that sometimes...and we do average 20,000...)

thepaulbowski
09-12-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
(wait...we have ownership that is like that sometimes...and we do average 20,000...)

You can say a lot of things about JR, but he does not treat fans in the same matter as the Cubs do. He's not the best of owners, but you can't compare him to the Tribune Co.

moochpuppy
09-12-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
And this surprises you how exactly? (I know it doesn't...) The Trib treats Cubs fans like crap...The Cubs fans like it, encourage it, and allow it. They get what they deserve. If we had ownership like that, we'd only have 20,000 fans a game. (wait...we have ownership that is like that sometimes...and we do average 20,000...)

It doesn't surprise me. What surprises me is why this organization is so loved.

On another note.....it looks like the state may press charges against the Tribune Co. for violating the scalper laws. If, for some reason, the Tribune loses, the Illinois penalty is loss of licence for holding any kind of event that tickets are sold for. I know there is no way that would happen but the Cubs not being able to play? WOW!

Kilroy
09-12-2003, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
''If the Cubs are eliminated from postseason contention before playoff tickets are mailed, we will automatically credit your payment to your 2004 season-ticket account.'' [/B]

The Sox offered the option to place any funds for unused postseason tickets towards 2004. I chose to get my $$ back, and I'll pay for my tix for next year when the time comes.

Its not surprising at all that the Cubs would just decide to keep the money. Arrogant ****s just assume that noone would dare cancel Cubs season tickets...

Lip Man 1
09-12-2003, 04:06 PM
Greg Couch said that he expects the judge to rule on the Cubs "ticket scalping scam" this November.

Lip

jabrch
09-12-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
You can say a lot of things about JR, but he does not treat fans in the same matter as the Cubs do. He's not the best of owners, but you can't compare him to the Tribune Co.

Well....In a number of ways you can...

With both ownerships they failed to every go out and get the key pieces to assemble winners. They both do just enough to keep fans coming (sure - on the North Side it takes less) but never enough to win. Both ownerships refused to spend the $ to get a 5th starter this year. (I dont know who is worse, Wright/Glover/Cotts/etc. or Estes/Cruz) Both teams would love Tejada or Matsui next season and in the end, I fear that neither owner will pay the $$$.

The big difference is that JR is a Sox fan. He wants to win. He just won't lose money to do it. (I can't blame him) The Tribune company couldn't care less if the Cubs win. They don't see that as being financially responsible because the slight increased revenues do not mathematically balance out the risk of adding 30,000,000 to payroll. They can make a handy profit without winning. To make more - all they had to do is start scalping tickets. Why spend more on players when you can gut the fans more? Interestingly - JR isn't scalping tickets, but he is charging more for playoff tickets than the Cubs are....

Hey...I wouldn't trade owners in a heartbeat. But if the Trib owned the Sox, they'd have sold us by now. They wouldn't tolerate the lack of financial performance that JR did. Either that - or they'd hype us up so much that everyone in the city would be coming, we'd have 40,000 every night, and Juggernaut still wouldn't be able to sit in the lower level to get himself a corned beef sandwich....

(I gotta quit drinking at lunchtime...)

jabrch
09-12-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
The Sox offered the option to place any funds for unused postseason tickets towards 2004. I chose to get my $$ back, and I'll pay for my tix for next year when the time comes.

Its not surprising at all that the Cubs would just decide to keep the money. Arrogant ****s just assume that noone would dare cancel Cubs season tickets...

Very few people do...Have you heard of many people cancelling Cubs season tickets?

Kilroy
09-12-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Very few people do...Have you heard of many people cancelling Cubs season tickets?

Is there a reason I would have? I haven't heard about anyone canceling Sox season tix either...

steff
09-12-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Very few people do...Have you heard of many people cancelling Cubs season tickets?


I know a lot of people who have cancelled only to renew the next year anyway. Morons. The Cubs do not have a large season ticket base. The Sox have just over 15K.

jabrch
09-12-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by steff
I know a lot of people who have cancelled only to renew the next year anyway. Morons. The Cubs do not have a large season ticket base. The Sox have just over 15K.

OVER 15,000? How can that be? We had many days with a paid gate of well under that. We can't have more than 9882 season tickets sold because that was our lowest attendance of the season? Right? Am I missing something?

StillMissOzzie
09-13-2003, 01:42 AM
Season ticket holders can't make it to every single game. Sometimes they give them away & they go unused.

Also, I think that the Sox got a bump in season ticket holders this year because of the All-Star game. It wouldn't surprise me to see some drop-off next year, unless the crack Sox marketing crew can replace them.

:gulp:

moochpuppy
09-15-2003, 08:39 AM
What I find funny is everytime I see an update on this ongoing story and I post it on the Cubs message board on ESPN, no one ever comments on it. Usually everytime you post something negative about the Cubs someone comes back to defend their heroes on the Northside but to not say anything to this speaks volumes IMO.

jabrch
09-15-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
Season ticket holders can't make it to every single game. Sometimes they give them away & they go unused.

Also, I think that the Sox got a bump in season ticket holders this year because of the All-Star game. It wouldn't surprise me to see some drop-off next year, unless the crack Sox marketing crew can replace them.

:gulp:

But attendance figures are based on "PAID" not actual present. Many paid fans come diguised as empty seats.

TDog
09-15-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
What I find funny is everytime I see an update on this ongoing story and I post it on the Cubs message board on ESPN, no one ever comments on it. Usually everytime you post something negative about the Cubs someone comes back to defend their heroes on the Northside but to not say anything to this speaks volumes IMO.

I mentioned the Cubbie playoffs ticket deal to the Cubs fan in my office. (No matter how far I get from Chicago, there's always a Cubs fan in the office.) Without hesitation, he told me it "sounds like smart business."

Hangar18
09-15-2003, 11:08 AM
No....whats really funny about cub fans, is this team could lose 90 games next year, and they'll gladly fill the joint up. their team can have a horrendous amount of luck for 100 years, but they'll fill the joint up. The owners of the team can Willing Jack their fans around with obscene prices and practices, But They'll fill the joint up. im so glad im not a cub fan

moochpuppy
09-15-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by TDog
Without hesitation, he told me it "sounds like smart business."

I'm betting he's not a season ticket holder and the Cubs aren't holding his $1,400 hostage.

kempsted
09-15-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
But attendance figures are based on "PAID" not actual present. Many paid fans come diguised as empty seats.
Does anyone know if this is true? It is my understanding that the attendance figure given is the number of people through the turnstyles. This is why they can have several "Sell outs" all with different attendance figures.

kingpin_rcs
09-15-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
OVER 15,000? How can that be? We had many days with a paid gate of well under that. We can't have more than 9882 season tickets sold because that was our lowest attendance of the season? Right? Am I missing something?

There are many different season ticket plans besides the full 81 game plan. Most likely they include everybody that bought some sort of season ticket plan. That could easily be 15k.

Dadawg_77
09-15-2003, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
Does anyone know if this is true? It is my understanding that the attendance figure given is the number of people through the turnstyles. This is why they can have several "Sell outs" all with different attendance figures.

No, all attendance is based on tickets sold. You can call an event a sell out if you have no open seats together, no non partial view seats sold, and standing room only doesn't count towards sell out or not.

jabrch
09-15-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by kingpin_rcs
There are many different season ticket plans besides the full 81 game plan. Most likely they include everybody that bought some sort of season ticket plan. That could easily be 15k.


Now that would make sense...if 2 people who each have 1/2 season tickets get counted as 2 people and not 1 person...that makes more sense.

shane
09-15-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Well....In a number of ways you can...

With both ownerships they failed to every go out and get the key pieces to assemble winners. They both do just enough to keep fans coming (sure - on the North Side it takes less) but never enough to win. Both ownerships refused to spend the $ to get a 5th starter this year. (I dont know who is worse, Wright/Glover/Cotts/etc. or Estes/Cruz) Both teams would love Tejada or Matsui next season and in the end, I fear that neither owner will pay the $$$.

I'd say they've assembled a winning team this year. It's not entirely necessary to have a 5th starter to win. They just need to make the decision to go with a 4 man rotation. I think they've tried to assemble the team for the past 3 years. How could they possibly predict that David Wells is going to suck in a Sox uniform, that Howry is going to lose his arm, that Koch would lose his arm. Some of the blame has got to go to these overpaid players that don't perform. I think the management has done a fine job getting rid of these players. Getting rid of Foulke was big mistake, but Koch has to accept the blame for his lowsy performance. He sucks, and until he put on the Sox uniform, he didn't. How can they get rid of him now? They need him to put out a few strong innings before they can get anything for him. Nobody wants him right now. You could also say that agents should take some of the blame. If management were to include performance degradation clauses in the contracts, the agents would just move to the next team on the list, and eventually, you would be left with the older players that don't have much gas left in them, because they will accept 1 year contracts just to stay on the field.

I honestly do not believe that JR is trying to have a team be just good enough to make the post-season and then lose. If he truly is a Sox fan, he wants the Sox to win.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2003, 04:18 PM
If Uncle Jerry truly "wants to win," then how do you account for at least two published comments since June 2002 where he called the Sox a "small market" franchise and also offered the comment that "Chicago has always been a Cubs town."

Small market teams do not win championships in MLB because they have no margain for error. If a player gets hurt, if a player has a bad year they're done. They can't (or won't) go out and get quality replacements.

In the Sox case Williams has already been quoted twice since July about how hard it is to make it work on a 50 million dollar payroll, which is why he wants the Sox to win so badly this year.

I'm assuming he wants the ammunition (i.e. attendence figures and revenue) to go to Uncle Jerry and plead his case to raise the payroll.

By the way the largest payroll EVER under Uncle Jerry's ownership was 57 million at the start of the 97 season.

It'll take at least 65 million to keep this entire club together for next year.

Don't hold your breath.

If Uncle Jerry truly "wanted to win" he wouldn't consider the nation's 3rd biggest market a "small market." Think of what the Sox could do with a payroll around what the Cubs spend, 70-80 million!

Remember this franchise will come close to hitting the 2 million mark in attendence this season. What more could Uncle Jerry ask for? How much more support does he need?

Lip

shane
09-15-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If Uncle Jerry truly "wants to win," then how do you account for at least two published comments since June 2002 where he called the Sox a "small market" franchise and also offered the comment that "Chicago has always been a Cubs town."

Small market teams do not win championships in MLB because they have no margain for error. If a player gets hurt, if a player has a bad year they're done. They can't (or won't) go out and get quality replacements.

In the Sox case Williams has already been quoted twice since July about how hard it is to make it work on a 50 million dollar payroll, which is why he wants the Sox to win so badly this year.

I'm assuming he wants the ammunition (i.e. attendence figures and revenue) to go to Uncle Jerry and plead his case to raise the payroll.

By the way the largest payroll EVER under Uncle Jerry's ownership was 57 million at the start of the 97 season.

It'll take at least 65 million to keep this entire club together for next year.

Don't hold your breath.

If Uncle Jerry truly "wanted to win" he wouldn't consider the nation's 3rd biggest market a "small market." Think of what the Sox could do with a payroll around what the Cubs spend, 70-80 million!

Remember this franchise will come close to hitting the 2 million mark in attendence this season. What more could Uncle Jerry ask for? How much more support does he need?

Lip

Right now, they are sitting at 68.9 Million, which is 600 thousand ahead of last year's WS Champions the Angels. Unless, of course, my source is no good (ESPN), which is possible.

White Sox Salaries (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=chw)

jabrch
09-15-2003, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by shane
I'd say they've assembled a winning team this year. It's not entirely necessary to have a 5th starter to win. They just need to make the decision to go with a 4 man rotation.

That's not possible. You can't go all season on 4 SPs. They aren't built anymore to go 40 starts. Guys arms would fall off by August.


I never said JR did want to win. (or I didn't intend on saying that). I am saying that JR wasn't willing to shell out a few more bucks over the current budget to do so. This team needed a 5th starter. We needed A CF all year. We needed a 2B all season.

Hopefully the moves we made at midseason helped enough to win it. I think we will . I hope next year we come back complete and make a run at it again...but first things first... I have plans to be going to Grant Park

shane
09-15-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
That's not possible. You can't go all season on 4 SPs. They aren't built anymore to go 40 starts. Guys arms would fall off by August.


I never said JR did want to win. (or I didn't intend on saying that). I am saying that JR wasn't willing to shell out a few more bucks over the current budget to do so. This team needed a 5th starter. We needed A CF all year. We needed a 2B all season.

Hopefully the moves we made at midseason helped enough to win it. I think we will . I hope next year we come back complete and make a run at it again...but first things first... I have plans to be going to Grant Park

You are correct (arms falling off is true, but sad). I think they really did try to win something this year though. Wright should have been able to fill the position of 5th starter, and I thought Koch was a great pick-up. I was sadly mistaken, but at the time I thought it was a great move. I thought Colon and Robbie were great moves as well. Loaiza, I had no idea, but it turned out good. Everett, I could care less. I think he's lazy and we could have found several people that are as good as him. But, it did signal change at a time that change was needed, and that was good.

StillMissOzzie
09-16-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by shane
Right now, they are sitting at 68.9 Million, which is 600 thousand ahead of last year's WS Champions the Angels. Unless, of course, my source is no good (ESPN), which is possible.

White Sox Salaries (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=chw)

While I am not questioning the accuracy of your source, from my understanding, the information here is not being used accurately. That is, it is overstating the Sox payroll by some $16.6 million, because the Sox are NOT paying Everett $9 million and Robbie Alomar $7.6 million, the Rangers and Mets are, respectively.

I'd bet the Sox won't pursue Everett next year, either, and while other threads here discuss the re-signing of Robbie, it certainly won't be for the $$$ he's currently getting from the Mets.

SMO
:gulp:

anewman35
09-16-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
If Uncle Jerry truly "wants to win," then how do you account for at least two published comments since June 2002 where he called the Sox a "small market" franchise and also offered the comment that "Chicago has always been a Cubs town."

If Uncle Jerry truly "wanted to win" he wouldn't consider the nation's 3rd biggest market a "small market." Think of what the Sox could do with a payroll around what the Cubs spend, 70-80 million!

Remember this franchise will come close to hitting the 2 million mark in attendence this season. What more could Uncle Jerry ask for? How much more support does he need?

Lip

He wants to win, he just doesn't want to go broke doing it. Makes sense to me.