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Lip Man 1
09-11-2003, 09:15 PM
Sounds like something out of The Man From U.N.C.L.E. doesn't it?

Seriously it has been bantered back and forth on different threads what effect, if any, the Twins four run 9th inning Tuesday had on this series (and how it may wind up costing the Sox a playoff spot...)

For what it's worth "Hawk" Harrelson, who I think even his toughest critics would admit has been around baseball a lot longer then anybody at this site, said in the 3rd inning of today's game that "the Twins have had the momentum in this series ever since the 9th inning Tuesday."

I wasn't in the Sox dugout or locker room so I have no idea, but Hawk apparently thinks it did.

Lip

TornLabrum
09-11-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Sounds like something out of The Man From U.N.C.L.E. doesn't it?

Seriously it has been bantered back and forth on different threads what effect, if any, the Twins four run 9th inning Tuesday had on this series (and how it may wind up costing the Sox a playoff spot...)

For what it's worth "Hawk" Harrelson, who I think even his toughest critics would admit has been around baseball a lot longer then anybody at this site, said in the 3rd inning of today's game that "the Twins have had the momentum in this series ever since the 9th inning Tuesday."

I wasn't in the Sox dugout or locker room so I have no idea, but Hawk apparently thinks it did.

Lip

Bruce Levine talked about how the Twins clubhouse attitude changed when they smelled White Sox blood after the Paniagua affair. But in another thread, it has been pointed out that those who think this actually affected either team know nothing about baseball. (Isn't that what Jerry Manuel said about those who question "what we're tyring to accomplish here"?)

flo-B-flo
09-11-2003, 09:46 PM
You know the thought crossed my mind the same way the Hawk saw it. Since that 9th inning they have outplayed us. Once Again Manuel- tinkering to the last- costs us the momentum we need to beat all these good teams we're playing. And then B+w gives the umpire the finger. Oh brother.

Lip Man 1
09-11-2003, 09:55 PM
Hal:

Just wondering...

What EXACTLY has Jerry Manuel accomplished in six years? Might be a great end of the season column for you. (Better hurry though you've only got 17 days left!)

Lip

duke of dorwood
09-11-2003, 09:55 PM
It certainly lifted them from the depths. I think a more significant turn was the bad call at first on Wednesday night-it had a direct effect on a game , a game they HAD to win.

MarkEdward
09-11-2003, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
What EXACTLY has Jerry Manuel accomplished in six years? Might be a great end of the season column for you. (Better hurry though you've only got 17 days left!)

Lip

He didn't win a division title or anything like that...

And it's not like we're competing for a division title this year or anything like that...

voodoochile
09-11-2003, 10:12 PM
I think Newman becoming gravely ill and the Sox deciding to swing for the fences both games had a lot more to do with the losses than Tuesday's 9th inning.

The Sox have been flat on far too many occasions when another team would be skyhigh and ready to rumble. It is a general malaise, IMO. It traces its origin back to Manuel, without a doubt in my mind.

You don't want a guy who is constantly in the players faces, but where is the fire on this team? Does Manuel ever hold a pregame meeting to remind the players that today's game is a big one? If he does then we need new players. If not, then we need a new manager.

I think you all know where I believe the problem lies...

TornLabrum
09-11-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
He didn't win a division title or anything like that...

And it's not like we're competing for a division title this year or anything like that...

Aside from the first half of that particular season, he's been just about a .500 manager who was outclassed by Lou Piniella when he got to the Division Series.

Lip, that's not enough for a column.

Lip Man 1
09-11-2003, 11:03 PM
Jerry Manuel's average seasonal record as of today, 1998 through 9/11/03

82 - 77

Jerry Manuel's average seasonal record since the start of the 2001 season (with "supposedly" all this talent)

81 - 76

Those are what the numbers say and of course the numbers never lie (at least according to the stat folks...)

Just Wondering. Can the numbers be anymore mediocre? Can the man be any more mediocre??

Lip

TornLabrum
09-11-2003, 11:35 PM
Since I've been one of the objects of so much of the Jerry Manuel negativity controversy here, let me say something. I've met Jerry Manuel on several occasions. He is a really great guy. I've met his wife. She's a wonderful woman. However, I don't think either of them has what it takes to be a major league manager.

Dan H
09-12-2003, 01:36 PM
Paniaqua, with his seven plus minor league era, had no business being in that game. We're lucky the Twins didn't win three of four. Game two almost slipped away, and just imagine a momentum change if the Twins rallied from six down in the ninth.

This move made no sense and it goes along with resting Konerko in game four and sending up a rookie with no major league at bats to pinch hit when you're four runs down.

I've always thought the Sox had the talent to win the division in 2003. But I worried about two things: their execution in tight or important games and Jerry Manuel. I am still worried, and I think we should all worry big time.

LASOXFAN
09-12-2003, 02:39 PM
I love how Paniagua's crappy performance is being blamed on Manuel. They had a six run lead! When are we supposed to see what he's got? Manuel made the right move in my book but it didn't work out. Not because he's an idiot, not because he tinkers too much, but because Paniagua pitched like crap and the Twins don't stop fighting.

So they grabbed momentum. :whiner: Stop whining like a 3rd grader who just had his lunch money stolen by the school bully. Dig in and take it back. Fight back. If I'm a Manuel apologist then you guys are Sox apologists. This team has to show heart, show some fight. The suggestion that they lost the momentum in the 9th inning of the second game and never got it back for the rest of the series is a sad, sad statement about the team's will to win.

Now, if you want to talk about a manager who fails to inspire his players, then I'm right there with you. But that 's not what you guys are talking about.

daveeym
09-12-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
I love how Paniagua's crappy performance is being blamed on Manuel. They had a six run lead! When are we supposed to see what he's got? Manuel made the right move in my book but it didn't work out.

Agreed. You got Kelly Wunsch and the entire bullpen saying how we have to rely on marte and flash and that they've been overworked. You have a six run lead with an inning to go. I would have put that bozo in there too. It may have given the Twins hope and raised their spirits but it didn't change the momentum. The Sox still won the game and then came out flat the next two days.

34 Inch Stick
09-12-2003, 03:41 PM
We are supposed to see what he's got after we see what Koch has got. Paniagua cannot make the playoff roster. There was no need to evaluate him unitl spring training. Right now is the time to determine who will be on the roster.

As with Cotts in New York, the move was not wrong because of the result. The move was wrong because of the lack thought behind it.

bc2k
09-12-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN

So they grabbed momentum. :whiner: Stop whining like a 3rd grader who just had his lunch money stolen by the school bully. Dig in and take it back. Fight back. If I'm a Manuel apologist then you guys are Sox apologists. This team has to show heart, show some fight.

Hahah, nice. "Teacher, teacher, Tommy stole my momentum!" :whiner:

Damn right LA, dig in and fight back. Where's the intensity?

TheRockinMT
09-12-2003, 11:04 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan H
[B]Paniaqua, with his seven plus minor league era, had no business being in that game. We're lucky the Twins didn't win three of four. Game two almost slipped away, and just imagine a momentum change if the Twins rallied from six down in the ninth.

This move made no sense and it goes along with resting Konerko in game four and sending up a rookie with no major league at bats to pinch hit when you're four runs down.

Panaigua had no business being brought up to the team period. We had pitchers throwing much better in Charlotte and were on a role including Rausch. Jon did a great job in september last year vrs the Twins. Why wasn't he brought up? The move was one with no justification.

Jerko
09-13-2003, 03:24 AM
All I know is since the Paniagua affair, the Sox have not won.

FarWestChicago
09-13-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
All I know is since the Paniagua affair, the Sox have not won. Are you aware of the relationship between correlations and causality in statistics?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-13-2003, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Are you aware of the relationship between correlations and causality in statistics?

Yep. Hindsight is always 20/20. If Paniaqua gets three outs, it is a whole different ballgame. The Sox never should have pursued this guy as a playoff roster pitcher if this was the best he was capable of doing. :(:

TornLabrum
09-13-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Yep. Hindsight is always 20/20. If Paniaqua gets three outs, it is a whole different ballgame. The Sox never should have pursued this guy as a playoff roster pitcher if this was the best he was capable of doing. :(:

He couldn't have been on the playoff roster. He was activated after midnight of 8/31. Of course that just makes the general's use of him all that more puzzling.