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Nellie_Fox
09-11-2003, 01:48 PM
Okay, here we are. The best record in baseball since the allstar break. In first place, locked in a very tense pennant race. I see that Vickery has posted a new article on WSI. Does he find anything positive, fun, or uplifting to write about? No, of course not. In the midst of everything, the only thing he can find to write about is ripping the manager. Again.

When is the last time that WSI posted a positive article? Not about the past, but about now? Is there absolutely nothing good ever going on? Or are Sox fans now so thoroughly steeped in misery that they simply refuse to see anything good?

In another thread, I mentioned that Czalgosz stopped coming here because he got tired of the non-stop negativity that pervades the board. I don't want to discuss again whether he is right or wrong to leave for that reason. I've already given my opinion on that. But please, someone tell me where he's wrong about the negativity?

Bobby Thigpen
09-11-2003, 01:54 PM
I hear you Nellie. That's one of the biggest reasons I wasn't around for most of the summer. Anytime anything good happens most everyone on here has to come up with some reason as to why it will turn out terribly.

I think one of the most ironic things about this site is you come on here and see post after post of negativity and then when someone writes an article about how Sox fans are miserable these same people act as if the writer is insane. I'm not saying that Sox fans shouldn't be miserable because of the team's past, but to be miserable while one of the best stories in Sox history is unfolding is beyond me.

Pete Ward
09-11-2003, 02:02 PM
Agree 100%

I havent posted in months. I lurk and get turned off by the negative vibes....

I havent looked at the front page in what seems like a month.

1st thing I see is Manuel's Alibi's.

I thought we were in 1st?

We are going to win today and we are going to win the damn division!

NewyorkSoxFan
09-11-2003, 02:03 PM
I agree Nellie. I am not as old as some as a Sox fan being only 35, but we perpetrate alot of the negativity that surrounds the team ourselves. For instance I am so tired of hearing how JM is a dolt. Is he the best manager? By no means, but the funny thing is in every city people complain about their manager even Torre has taken alot of shots here in NY. But to blame this guy for every single bad thing that happens (and create a thread about it) gets somewhat ludicrous.

I am enjoying this story b/c no matter what happens this team has given us something over the summer and they have played hard and they have never given up when most of us had done so in June.

I realize that this is not going to stop the pessimism, but lets just relax and enjoy this it might turn out to be another disappointment, or it could be something special but I for one can't wait to see what happens.


NYSF

"Dancing Bannana-Shake what yo mama gave ya!!"

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 02:09 PM
When WSI is presented with the credentials of someone that has positive things to write about the Sox, willing to write positive things about the Sox, and capable of writing their thoughts in a cogent manner, I can assure you as editor of the website that you will see their material published here at WSI. Judging by your tone, I'm guessing you've already ruled yourself out from being part of the solution rather than just part another part of the problem. Talk about whining...

For the record, the pay for the work is nothing. Would you like to take another dump on the floor, or can I go back to cleaning the fryer?

duke of dorwood
09-11-2003, 02:12 PM
Everyone sees things different-negative is often constructive and those ideas should be heard. In my opinion the team has underachieved for the season, and the negativity shows fans care and want things better. No one here curses, and gets grossly personal. For me, this is fine.

HURT35
09-11-2003, 02:12 PM
I think many including myself feel that this manager is the reason why the Sox are in a "tense pennant race" rather than 5 or 6 games up right now. He has a loser mentality, he has given away 7-8 games this year. If you want them, I'll list them. See the line-up today? Most important game of the year, right? or a game in early May? He approaches them the same way. Daubach at first. OK, Konerko has had a rough couple of days but is today the time to pull him out of the line-up for a guy who hasnt had more than a handful of at-bats in the past 40 games or so?

Sandy Alomar, with years of playoff experience, don't need him to start any more than 1 of 4 games this series. Hitting .333 lifetime against Radke. Olivo couldnt do any damage if he took a boat oar up to the plate!

Doesnt play Robbie yesterday (which cost him on two ground balls, regardless of the bad call, Robbie in there more than likely the first two runs dont score), but puts Valentin and his right handed wet noodle bat and Olivo minus the boat oar back to back at 8 & 9 to insure that we create an out cluster throughout the game.

I am sorry, I dont consider myself a negative guy but I could write a freakin manifesto on this clown's inability to manage a ball club.

Nellie_Fox
09-11-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For the record, the pay for the work is nothing. Would you like to take another dump on the floor, or can I go back to cleaning the fryer? I'm whining?

Iwritecode
09-11-2003, 02:14 PM
It's generally a Sox fans nature to hope for the best and expect the worst. After 86 years without a WS trophy and over a decade of being "second-class" citizens to that lowly team that plays on the north side and thinks losing is "cute", it's really difficult to not have this mentality. With this season, as bad as the team played the first half, some people are still waiting for the other shoe to drop. They are the ones that say the team is winning in spite of JM, not because of him. I'm can assuming is that Hal's article was written sometime last week when the frustration of losing 2 close games to the Red Sox was still fresh. The only thing I can say is, don't get too excited when they win, don't get too down when they lose. We've still got a couple of weeks left to go and a great shot at winning the whole thing. There are still going to be negative people, but if the Sox make it to the WS (and win it) they won't have to much left to complain about...

BTW, did CZ leave because of the negativity about the team, or the negativity between the posters? IIRC, he left right around the time there was that big power struggle going on between the mods and a couple of posters that have since been banned and not returned. There were a lot of insults through around during that time. Maybe that's what he meant by "negativity"???

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
I'm whining?

Who started the thread, Nellie?

You offering any solutions? Here's my email address. It's only posted here about 1000 different places.

george@whitesoxinteractive.com

idseer
09-11-2003, 02:16 PM
you want positiveness and rosiness, turn on the disney channel.
everything hal says about JM is true. it's not so much negative as it's fact! doesn't bother me to know the truth.

jeremyb1
09-11-2003, 02:17 PM
I totally agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread. Manuel isn't a great manager but dozens of threads about his ineptitude each day aren't doing much to improve his skills. People just seem so upset and angry whenever anything negative happens at this point. For instance, when we won the second game of the series all anyone could talk about was giving up three runs in the ninth. Considering we've won more games than we've lost at this point, especially since the break, the negativity seems out of place.

Nellie_Fox
09-11-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
BTW, did CZ leave because of the negativity about the team, or the negativity between the posters? IIRC, he left right around the time there was that big power struggle going on between the mods and a couple of posters that have since been banned and not returned. There were a lot of insults through around during that time. Maybe that's what he meant by "negativity"??? No, it was the general tone of the posting. Things that went beyond criticism of players and management, to absolute hatred for certain players, JM and JR. Everything wrong in the world was blamed on one of these or a combination, and nothing they did was ever right. He got tired of trying to debate the points only to be answered with straw-man arguments and ad hominem attacks, and frustrated reading them. So he's gone.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I totally agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread. Manuel isn't a great manager but dozens of threads about his ineptitude each day aren't doing much to improve his skills. People just seem so upset and angry whenever anything negative happens at this point. For instance, when we won the second game of the series all anyone could talk about was giving up three runs in the ninth. Considering we've won more games than we've lost at this point, especially since the break, the negativity seems out of place. Well put, Jeremy. An alien stumbling upon this board would assume we are the worst team in the history of baseball. :?:

Nellie_Fox
09-11-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Who started the thread, Nellie?

You offering any solutions? Here's my email address. It's only posted here about 1000 different places.

george@whitesoxinteractive.com So starting a thread questioning the general tone of things is whining? George, I live in Minnesota. Not exactly a hotbed of White Sox inside information, so I'm not in a position to write articles for WSI. You exercise editorial control over what's put up.

It's your board, do what you want. I'm truly sorry I brought it up.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
When WSI is presented with the credentials of someone that has positive things to write about the Sox, willing to write positive things about the Sox, and capable of writing their thoughts in a cogent manner, I can assure you as editor of the website that you will see their material published here at WSI. Judging by your tone, I'm guessing you've already ruled yourself out from being part of the solution rather than just part another part of the problem. Talk about whining...

For the record, the pay for the work is nothing. Would you like to take another dump on the floor, or can I go back to cleaning the fryer? George, Nellie is absolutely correct. It's been long time since we had a "positive" feature article. On the other hand, you can only publish what is submitted. It's a difficult situation. :(:

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
So starting a thread questioning the general tone of things is whining? George, I live in Minnesota. Not exactly a hotbed of White Sox inside information, so I'm not in a position to write articles for WSI. You exercise editorial control over what's put up.

It's your board, do what you want. I'm truly sorry I brought it up.

I don't control who submits material, Nellie. I'm not exactly paying the going rate for journalists. We're volunteers. Certainly you're capable of volunteering. You're volunteering your opinion that others who volunteer here are wrong, aren't you?

I'm the editor, not the writer. I'll gladly add a positive writer when one of them offers their services.

For the record, Hal has submitted columns almost every week for 3 years now. He is easily the most prolific writer here. If some of the positive writers weren't so busy whining about negativity, we might be able to achieve the sort of editorial balance that you've apparently apportioned yourself to excercise as my editor-in-chief.

I can't believe a reasonable person like you is coping an attitude about this.

Nellie_Fox
09-11-2003, 02:38 PM
George, I'm equally shocked at how personally you're taking this. I was just pointing out how negative things have become, and at a time when things are going extremely well, hoping that maybe those who have the information and the inclination to write might say "oh, yeah, I guess maybe there are some positives to write about."

Again, I live in Minnesota. I get to watch about 15 or 20 games a year on TV, and some of them are on the Twins channel, so they talk about what the Twins are doing. I get almost no Sox info in the papers. I come here to get information. I'm in no position to give it.

Here's an example of something someone could write about that I'd love to have info on: After years of shuffling hitting coaches in and out, the offense seems to have exploded since Greg Walker came in. What is he doing that that the others didn't? I'll bet that someone here knows.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 02:42 PM
Please understand I get 1-2 columns for publication per week. The past two weeks I've gotten one. For all the talk about how everyone is excited about this team, you wouldn't know it by the material submitted for publication.

Were you under the impression I was holding back from publishing material from positive writers? The truth is exactly the opposite. I'm not sure what you expect me to do. Tell my volunteers to go scratch? I thought that was the purpose of the message board? :smile:

maurice
09-11-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
No, it was the general tone of the posting. Things that went beyond criticism of players and management, to absolute hatred for certain players, JM and JR. Everything wrong in the world was blamed on one of these or a combination, and nothing they did was ever right. He got tired of trying to debate the points only to be answered with straw-man arguments and ad hominem attacks, and frustrated reading them. So he's gone.

Things have toned down quite a bit since the period of time you are describing. Outright hatred directed at certain players, in particular, is way down. On the whole, I don't think JR has been treated unfairly here recently. I agree that JM (and the Chicago media) is taking a beating and that not all of it is deserved. ( Only 85% of it is deserved. :D: ) Ad hominem attacks are much less frequent (Juggernaut notwithstanding), but unfortunately strawman tactics (and irrational pessimism) remain all too common. Overall, I think we're doing okay. Nobody's perfect.

:shammy
"What about me?"

THE_HOOTER
09-11-2003, 02:44 PM
You can read virtually every paper, especially the sports section on the internet.

Nowadays, it doesn't matter where you are-you have access to the same amount of info as anyone else.

If you have such a problem with the negativity, which I understand, then come up with a solution.

Iwritecode
09-11-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
If you have such a problem with the negativity, which I understand, then come up with a solution.

If it were only that easy. I try to remain positive about this team and not blame everything that goes wrong on Manuel... But as George said, he wants people "capable of writing their thoughts in a cogent manner". I have never been good at putting my thoughts down on paper. Maybe if I was, I would take a shot a writing something for the site...

gosox41
09-11-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well put, Jeremy. An alien stumbling upon this board would assume we are the worst team in the history of baseball. :?:

We may have one of the worse managers in baseball.

:)

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
You can read virtually every paper, especially the sports section on the internet.

Nowadays, it doesn't matter where you are-you have access to the same amount of info as anyone else.

If you have such a problem with the negativity, which I understand, then come up with a solution.

If the title of this thread was "Hal's Negativity" I probably wouldn't care, especially if some specific points were being raised. Instead, the title attacks the website. I can't abide by that, especially since absolutely nobody who makes this site possible gets any compensation besides the satisfaction of enjoying the work and perhaps the thanks and gratitude of the rest of us.

If you don't like what Hal writes, please--by all means--don't read it. If you have a beef with something you read, whether by Hal or anyone else, go ahead and post your opinion. Isn't that what this message board is for? It certainly works more effectively than writing a letter to the newspaper editor who never publishes what you wrote, or calling sportsblab radio where the producer has his thumb on the mute button.

But to attack the entire website? Come on...

A spoonful of credit would be in order here.

Bobby Thigpen
09-11-2003, 02:56 PM
Do you need any qualifications to be able to write something for the site or could I just sit down one afternoon and write something and send it to you to be on the site? For some reason this sounds intriguing to me.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Do you need any qualifications to be able to write something for the site or could I just sit down one afternoon and write something and send it to you to be on the site? For some reason this sounds intriguing to me.

If you can write complete sentences and understand paragraph structure, plus can string together several paragraphs to make a larger point (a beginning, a middle, and an end), you probably qualify. In fact, you're probably over-qualified. :D:

Details? My email address is above.

34 Inch Stick
09-11-2003, 03:18 PM
Just an observation of empiracle data... the first four people asserting we are too negative do not reside in the Chicagoland area.

Is this saying something about those of us who live in Chicago? Are we just generally negative people?

Generally New York is considered a very negative media town by the outside world. I would imagine New Yorkers do not view themselves as overly negative people. Maybe the same can be said for how people who reside in places like Plano, Mankato, Shelbyville and Long Island view Chicagoans. If I remember correctly czalgosz lived in California.

It's a small sample that may mean nothing but are we too negative?

I, for one, come from a great family who are happy both with each other and outsiders. However, on the negative to positive spectrum I would put us on the negative side of the half way point. It doesn't make us bad or miserable it just seems that we are cautious. We expect bad and are thrilled when good comes about.

Enough of my introspection.

I realize that many of the "foreigners" grew up in Chicago, but maybe we are just on different wavelenghts here.

Bobby Thigpen
09-11-2003, 03:30 PM
That is truly a great observation. I really can't respond to how Shelbyville people view Chicagoans. I've only lived here for about a year now and I've learned that the majority of people here in Shelbyville think Chicago is in a foreign country. :smile:

But it has been my experience that Chicago sports fans are very negative. Look at the 2001 Bears season. That team wasn't supposed to go anywhere but they caught lightning in a bottle and had a great year. All I ever heard from most Bears fans were how they were going to fall apart in the playoffs. In fact most Bears fans I know were actually happy when it happened. It's as if they were going to get a reward for knowing the right outcome.

I think the same can be said for most Sox fans. They automatically assume bad things will happen and always the first to let you know about it when it does. Like someone's tag said when he attended the 93 clinching game "it doesn't mean anything if we don't win the pennant". We just can't be happy with what's going on at the time. It's almost as if Sox fans enjoy misery and are almost happy when they are rewarded with it.

Chisox_cali
09-11-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Okay, here we are. The best record in baseball since the allstar break. In first place, locked in a very tense pennant race. I see that Vickery has posted a new article on WSI. Does he find anything positive, fun, or uplifting to write about? No, of course not. In the midst of everything, the only thing he can find to write about is ripping the manager. Again.

When is the last time that WSI posted a positive article? Not about the past, but about now? Is there absolutely nothing good ever going on? Or are Sox fans now so thoroughly steeped in misery that they simply refuse to see anything good?

In another thread, I mentioned that Czalgosz stopped coming here because he got tired of the non-stop negativity that pervades the board. I don't want to discuss again whether he is right or wrong to leave for that reason. I've already given my opinion on that. But please, someone tell me where he's wrong about the negativity?

I agree 100% It's the main reason I don't post here as often as I did before, and I've only been posting here since early in the 2001 season, not exactly a hotbed of positivity in that season, so it says a lot to be negative in the 2003 season

Nellie_Fox
09-11-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If the title of this thread was "Hal's Negativity" I probably wouldn't care, especially if some specific points were being raised. Instead, the title attacks the website. I can't abide by that, especially since absolutely nobody who makes this site possible gets any compensation besides the satisfaction of enjoying the work and perhaps the thanks and gratitude of the rest of us. It's not an attack on the site, but it's not just about Hal's article. There is a general tone of negativity that pervades the articles and the discussion board. Nowhere did I say that anyone connected with the running of the board is responsible. The tone has gone where it's gone of its own accord, not because of any editorial policy.

All I'm saying is that those who can't see anything good should maybe take a look at themselves. Of course, with the Sox being behind 5-1 right now, this is probably the wrong time to be encouraging any form of positivity. A split in this series is definitely not good.

34 Inch Stick
09-11-2003, 03:56 PM
Nellie, you should let someone in the psychology department study us for a little while and come up with some conclusions. If we are just indefeatibly negative then you would have to make a decision about your future association with this board. But maybe there is a cure.

When will Abbott finally develop some White Sox KooAid?

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
It's not an attack on the site, but it's not just about Hal's article. There is a general tone of negativity that pervades the articles and the discussion board. Nowhere did I say that anyone connected with the running of the board is responsible. The tone has gone where it's gone of its own accord, not because of any editorial policy.

All I'm saying is that those who can't see anything good should maybe take a look at themselves. Of course, with the Sox being behind 5-1 right now, this is probably the wrong time to be encouraging any form of positivity. A split in this series is definitely not good. Nellie, trust me. We are aware of the tone issue. We have been having discussions about how to make the board more friendly to non-depressive posters while keeping it fair for those who prefer ranting. Give us some time. We're kicking a bunch of ideas around. And George is in the thick of it. He may be feisty, but he's not depressive. Well, I'm not so sure about that after watching this game... :(:

Hokiesox
09-11-2003, 03:59 PM
you guys are sounding like the umpiring association I belongED to. I quit 'cuz I couldn't put up with their bickering AND it was starting to affect the kids. Nothing being posted here, from either side, is helping anyone's enjoyment of White Sox baseball. I though that's why we were all here too. If the board is too negative, don't read it! Then, post something positive! I for one, form my own opinion about the Sox and stick to it. If I feel the need to comment on these boards, it's all for fun. I like talking to other Sox fans. that's the basis of this, I thought. And, just like any diverse population, the opinions are diverse. IMHO, WSI is a good place to follow White Sox baseball and communicate with other fans. George, keep doing what you're doing, and everyone else, keep posting what you want to post. but quit the bickering.

MarqSox
09-11-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Hokiesox
Nothing being posted here, from either side, is helping anyone's enjoyment of White Sox baseball. I though that's why we were all here too. If the board is too negative, don't read it!
But that's sort of the point. The board IS too negative, so I don't want to read it. But I love talking about the Sox, so I need the board. Sort of a catch 22, eh?

I could always go to another Sox board, but none of them are as well-moderated or insightful as this one. So, I guess I have to choose to either (A) be depressed every day, (B) not talk Sox baseball, or (C) go elsewhere and talk with dolts.

I choose D, talk baseball here and not want to shoot myself after doing so.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Nellie, trust me. We are aware of the tone issue. We have been having discussions about how to make the board more friendly to non-depressive posters while keeping it fair for those who prefer ranting. Give us some time. We're kicking a bunch of ideas around. And George is in the thick of it. He may be feisty, but he's not depressive. Well, I'm not so sure about that after watching this game... :(:

This is a very frustrating topic for me. There is only one HTML editor around here. When the front page was full of new material every day, I was lucky to get 6 hours of sleep before waking up and doing the job that actually paid my family's bills. Now I get 8 hours sleep but I have people telling me I'm not excercising proper editorial control over the main page. I created this website as a hobby, and never intended to do it for any other reason but to enjoy myself and offer something unique for Sox Fans. What's wrong with this picture?

And most of all, the critics offer NO SPECIFICS. It's just a bunch "general" this and "pervasive" that. It's "not just the website," but it's "not just Hal," either. Huh? There are 26 direct links to content on the main page, plus another dozen or so that organize and index several hundred more. Has all of "WSI" been indicted? Exactly what is the point of the title? Hell if I know...

A few specifics to back up the allegations would be really helpful.

The answer to any front page "balance" issues is as simple as getting additional writers. As for the tone of the message board posts, last I checked everyone has equal access for creating the tone the wider group sets for itself.

MarqSox
09-11-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This is a very frustrating topic for me. There is only one HTML editor around here. When the front page was full of new material every day, I was lucky to get 6 hours of sleep before waking up and doing the job that actually paid my family's bills. Now I get 8 hours sleep but I have people telling me I'm not excercising proper editorial control over the main page. I created this website as a hobby, and never intended to do it for any other reason but to enjoy myself and offer something unique for Sox Fans. What's wrong with this picture?

And most of all, the critics offer NO SPECIFICS. It's just a bunch "general" this and "pervasive" that. It's "not just the website," but it's "not just Hal," either. Huh? There are 26 direct links to content on the main page, plus another dozen or so that organize and index several hundred more. Has all of "WSI" been indicted? Exactly what is the point of the title? Hell if I know...

A few specifics to back up the allegations would be really helpful.

The answer to any front page "balance" issues is as simple as getting additional writers. As for the tone of the message board posts, last I checked everyone has equal access for creating the tone the wider group sets for itself.
George, I really think you're taking this thread the wrong way. I know my criticism is directed at the posters as a whole, not you, and I gotta think same goes for Nellie and the other non-depressing posters. We all appreciate what you've put together here and thank you and the other mods tremendously for your time and effort.

So, when I gripe that things are too negative around here, I'm not saying it's your fault, just that it's a problem that a lot of people are noticing. Whether there's anything you can do (or whether you SHOULD do anything), I don't know.

ma-gaga
09-11-2003, 04:34 PM
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but it seems like Nellie was making an observation about the site. My $0.02 says that he's right, there's a lot of negativity here.

Even the positive messages get hammered down very quickly. I certainly feel it, and don't post as much here anymore. A couple of months ago Lipman was saying that he's got a theory about 85 years of futility having an effect on the general psyche or the WSox fan, and how that comes through... I tend to believe this a bit.

I don't have a solution.

and this is definitely 'parking lot' material.

*edit* got rid of the crap, it made sense when i typed it...

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
George, I really think you're taking this thread the wrong way. I know my criticism is directed at the posters as a whole, not you, and I gotta think same goes for Nellie and the other non-depressing posters. We all appreciate what you've put together here and thank you and the other mods tremendously for your time and effort.

So, when I gripe that things are too negative around here, I'm not saying it's your fault, just that it's a problem that a lot of people are noticing. Whether there's anything you can do (or whether you SHOULD do anything), I don't know.

Thank you. I truly appreciate the sentiments, and I'm sure others who put in unpaid time here appreciate it, too. As West noted, there are private discussions about what needs to be done to address myraid issues that crop up. Negativity is only one of several recent topics identified and discussed. This thread is over 30 posts deep. Checking my email I know not one positive thing that has resulted from it. Just more people blowing off steam--this time directed at the volunteer staff. Whatever...

For very practical reasons (which I will not go into here) I will never beg anyone to work here. If that causes issues of general tone for some here, I can only say the alternatives for me and the rest of the staff are far worse. We're running a REAL website with real limitations on resources, the greatest of these being time.

dougs78
09-11-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If you can write complete sentences and understand paragraph structure, plus can string together several paragraphs to make a larger point (a beginning, a middle, and an end), you probably qualify. In fact, you're probably over-qualified. :D:

Details? My email address is above.

I should preface this by saying that I have not read a front page article, other than Daver's, in an awfully long time becuase of this exact reason. However, I think Nellie's point is a great one. This board and the articles are decidely negative. I find myself in a position similar what MarqSox has just described, in that I am tried of the negativity, but find myself drawn the collection of information and camraderie that I find here.

Some of you say, "Well, if you don't like it don't come anymore." I truly don't understand this, but particularly not from PHG and others who are intimately involved with this site. Such a casual and unconcerned attitude betrays the hours and hours I know they spend every week making this a great place for fans to congregate. Truth is, I know George wants to make this a great place for as many fans as can fit on the servers. Perhaps, he just wants more recognition for all the work he does and not contstructive criticism of the type just provided by Nellie. George I would urge you to take the input as a free resource to help improve this site and not as a personal affront.

However, back to the original quote I have included. George, you make it out to seem as though anyone can write the front page articles included on this site. However, my experience has been quite exactly the opposite. It certainly seems to me that nearly every article is written by either Vickery or Liptak with an occasional one thrown in by Daver. It has always been my impression that this was deliberate as these individuals were considered the "site authors." I got this impression not only becuase they are the only authors I ever see up there, but when I submitted an article before it was posted not on the front page, but on a separate, "Sound Off" page that is difficult to find. In fact this "Sound Off" page is advertised as "Your chance to Sound Off about the Sox." That has always made it very clear to me that the front page of WSI was NOT open to submissions. Perhaps this is just poorly communicated, or perhaps it reflects a recent change in policy. I know I myself was very turned off from writing articles from my experience in submitting one previously.

I guess in closing I would just like to make clear that in my eyes, and likely in the eyes of many others, the editor of something is ultimately responsible for the content included. I realize that as a free site, this creates some difficulties, but truly I think that there are enough Sox fans on this board that surely a few would have something worthy to be printed. It is a matter of 1) making clear that submissions are not only accepted, but welcomed and 2) Actively seeking out stories from other Sox fans . Perhaps this could be accomplished by having a contest for patrons of this website to see who writes the best article. It could be for something as simple as a avatar next to the winner's name.

Again, as I have stated earlier, this post is intended to be my attempt at offering not only constructive crticism, but also a solution to the problem I see. I truly hope that you all, particularly George, take it as such and not as a personal insult.

Procol Harum
09-11-2003, 04:57 PM
Perhaps we should simply ask people to direct themselves to two boards, one for--in Spiro Agnew's famous words--the "nattering nabobs of negativity" and the other entitled the Pangloss thread named after Voltaire's character in Candide who insisted that this is the 'best of all possible worlds." Anyone who voiced a contrary opinion on either board could then be treated as a troll and be blasted from sight.

C'mon guysziz, this is the best site bar none for having an intelligent and entertaining discussion about the White Sox (which is to say, baseball) without a lot of namecalling and trolling. If you don't want to read something you perceive as negativity it's like the old argument about watching a TV program--change the channel! In this case, read another thread or start your own. But puhleeeaze, let's avoid the tendency one sometimes sees around here toward a "more White Sox fan than thou" mindset.

MarqSox
09-11-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Procol Harum
C'mon guysziz, this is the best site bar none for having an intelligent and entertaining discussion about the White Sox (which is to say, baseball) without a lot of namecalling and trolling. If you don't want to read something you perceive as negativity it's like the old argument about watching a TV program--change the channel! In this case, read another thread or start your own. But puhleeeaze, let's avoid the tendency one sometimes sees around here toward a "more White Sox fan than thou" mindset.
I agree with you. But it becomes a problem when you have to sift through 9 "Oh my god we suck" threads to find 1 "hey, we're in first place, imagine that" thread.

idseer
09-11-2003, 05:16 PM
this obsession with trying to create positiveness is absolutely ridiculous. just exactly what do you expect to read here?
how great it is that magglio is above .300 again? isn't it swell that thomas got his 40th? it is not interesting reading!!!!! most of you KNOW what's good about the team.

i want to read about what needs fixing. maybe some suggestions as to how to go about it. that is what working on something is all about imo. you want to feel good go read mary poppins.

all the info on the sox is here somewhere both the good stuff and the bad. learn where to look for your particular tastes and quit crying already. seems to me george has made his position quite clear on the subject and yet you keep on with the stupid complaints couched in softer terms. you'll be happier if the plug is pulled???

i say shut up or leave!

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
I should preface this by saying that I have not read a front page article, other than Daver's, in an awfully long time becuase of this exact reason. However, I think Nellie's point is a great one. This board and the articles are decidely negative. I find myself in a position similar what MarqSox has just described, in that I am tried of the negativity, but find myself drawn the collection of information and camraderie that I find here.

Some of you say, "Well, if you don't like it don't come anymore." I truly don't understand this, but particularly not from PHG and others who are intimately involved with this site. Such a casual and unconcerned attitude betrays the hours and hours I know they spend every week making this a great place for fans to congregate. Truth is, I know George wants to make this a great place for as many fans as can fit on the servers. Perhaps, he just wants more recognition for all the work he does and not contstructive criticism of the type just provided by Nellie. George I would urge you to take the input as a free resource to help improve this site and not as a personal affront.

However, back to the original quote I have included. George, you make it out to seem as though anyone can write the front page articles included on this site. However, my experience has been quite exactly the opposite. It certainly seems to me that nearly every article is written by either Vickery or Liptak with an occasional one thrown in by Daver. It has always been my impression that this was deliberate as these individuals were considered the "site authors." I got this impression not only becuase they are the only authors I ever see up there, but when I submitted an article before it was posted not on the front page, but on a separate, "Sound Off" page that is difficult to find. In fact this "Sound Off" page is advertised as "Your chance to Sound Off about the Sox." That has always made it very clear to me that the front page of WSI was NOT open to submissions. Perhaps this is just poorly communicated, or perhaps it reflects a recent change in policy. I know I myself was very turned off from writing articles from my experience in submitting one previously.

I guess in closing I would just like to make clear that in my eyes, and likely in the eyes of many others, the editor of something is ultimately responsible for the content included. I realize that as a free site, this creates some difficulties, but truly I think that there are enough Sox fans on this board that surely a few would have something worthy to be printed. It is a matter of 1) making clear that submissions are not only accepted, but welcomed and 2) Actively seeking out stories from other Sox fans . Perhaps this could be accomplished by having a contest for patrons of this website to see who writes the best article. It could be for something as simple as a avatar next to the winner's name.

Again, as I have stated earlier, this post is intended to be my attempt at offering not only constructive crticism, but also a solution to the problem I see. I truly hope that you all, particularly George, take it as such and not as a personal insult.

Taken directly from the main page, "All About White Sox Interactive" link:

If you wish to write for White Sox Interactive, please submit a feature for our Sox Fans' Sound Off feature. If you have coding skills and would like to actively help maintain the site, we're always looking for good help! Contact the webmaster below.

That's just one of dozens of places my email address appears. You know why the Sound Off feature was finally scrapped? Lack of participation. We went most of the 2002 season without a single submission. I pulled the plug. I also pulled the plug on the minor league farm report and I fully expect to pull the plug on the WSI Post of the Week because it doesn't even get updated once a month anymore.

Do you see the problem I'm facing?

Yes, we do place limitations on who can write for the main page, but only for writing ability, not point of view. That is the one and only editorial policy I've implemented beyond the obvious prerequisite of offering a Sox Fans' perspective. I frankly don't care if it's positive or negative. Hell, I can tell you the two TBGR's I wrote this season were the most over-the-top positive game recaps we've published all season. Being a Sox Fan who can write is the only requirement. We added one new columnist this year (who volunteered) and several others for game recaps (also volunteers).

The overwhelming quantity of content at WSI is historical in nature. I'm guessing we can get into big fights over how best to remember Jerry Dybzinski, but I'm sure the vitriolic nature of the battle would never reach the heights of past Manos/Choice debates. With the exception of the opinion columns, I'm sure we agree this is as it should be on the main page.

I'll edit the Sound Off link. We have lots of dead links around here and I thought I had disposed of the last of that one. It shouldn't be there because that feature is gone and won't be coming back. I had no control over the circumstances of its demise, but as editor I will make the hard choices on what is best for managing the website. If people aren't interested, or it can't be staffed by reliable volunteers, it's gone.

daveeym
09-11-2003, 05:20 PM
It's just like the media only end of the world articles get the front page. If only positive posts were made this site would be extremely boring. Everyone agrees on the positives so how do you discuss them. Hmmm, lets let the positive peeps have the chance to lead us in an intelligent and entertaining discussion.

Wow guys we're still in first place and Franks homer sure was swell.


If we only talked positively we'd have 50 responses all saying "agreed." Positives go down as fact, negatives get discussed.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by idseer
seems to me george has made his position quite clear on the subject and yet you keep on with the stupid complaints couched in softer terms. you'll be happier if the plug is pulled???

i say shut up or leave! LMAO!!! I don't think I've ever seen id agree with George about anything before. :smile:

Ummm, id, you really don't want me to leave. Think about it...

idseer
09-11-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
LMAO!!! I don't think I've ever seen id agree with George about anything before. :smile:

Ummm, id, you really don't want me to leave. Think about it...

oh hell, george gets a lot of stuff right. maybe over 50% :D:

and no, i don't think anyone should leave unless they really want to or are just so obnoxious we have to kill them for their own good.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
If we only talked positively we'd have 50 responses all saying "agreed." Positives go down as fact, negatives get discussed. Oh please, let's get off this "the depressoids are interesting intellectuals" crap (you didn't say this exactly, but it's where many of the condescending depressoids have been heading--yours was just a good post to quote :smile: ). A HUGE portion of the depressoid posts are mindless, ranting drivel, period. If you don't believe me, wade through a couple of game threads.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by idseer
oh hell, george gets a lot of stuff right. maybe over 50% :D:Well something positive came out of this miserable day at least. :smile:

daveeym
09-11-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Oh please, let's get off this "the depressoids are interesting intellectuals" crap (you didn't say this exactly, but it's where many of the condescending depressoids have been heading--yours was just a good post to quote :smile: ). A HUGE portion of the depressoid posts are mindless, ranting drivel, period. If you don't believe me, wade through a couple of game threads.

That's it I'm going Juggernaut on you.

idseer
09-11-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Oh please, let's get off this "the depressoids are interesting intellectuals" crap (you didn't say this exactly, but it's where many of the condescending depressoids have been heading--yours was just a good post to quote :smile: ). A HUGE portion of the depressoid posts are mindless, ranting drivel, period. If you don't believe me, wade through a couple of game threads.

that's exactly so. but then a huge portion of everything is garbage. however i wouldn't throw hals columns onto that list.

idseer
09-11-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well something positive came out of this miserable day at least. :smile:

well there you go then. the positoids win out after all.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by idseer
that's exactly so. but then a huge portion of everything is garbage. however i wouldn't throw hals columns onto that list. Oh no, not at all. What happens in the content areas of the site is exactly what George said. He's not getting much to publish that has a positive tone. And I think all of our columnists are good writers. I have been speaking strictly about the boards.

Lip Man 1
09-11-2003, 05:40 PM
All I can add to the discussion is that George doesn't select me to do anything for this site. I submit my stories because I want to.

If George doesn't want to use them, that's his choice (not Royce...)

No it's not easy to write something, anything for publication, but it can be done.

The only solution to the "optimists" viewpoint is that one of their ilk needs to get going and start writing something.

I personally would enjoy seeing what you have to offer.

Perhaps it would cause me to give pause and consider all that I should be thankful for from the Sox and frankly it would also enable those of us who are constantly getting attacked and criticized, the opportunity to try our hand at doing that which the "optimists," do so well with our submissions.

It seems to me that if you are not willing to help create balance on the site then you have no reason to be upset as those of us who do what we can whatever view point.

Lip

maurice
09-11-2003, 05:46 PM
Having just read Hal's article, I have to say that I liked it very much. Lack of accountability is a huge issue among Sox management, as well as the nation as a whole. The absence of a "buck stops here" attitude on almost every level of management, right on up to the White House, bothers me immensely. Everything is always (allegedly) someone else's fault. Hopefully, KW's current attitude predicts a change in direction for the franchise after JM is gone.

Thanks for the nice article, Hal, and thanks to George for posting it.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
It seems to me that if you are not willing to help create balance on the site then you have no reason to be upset as those of us who do what we can whatever view point.

Lip Lip, I work 18/7. And much of that is occupied running the company that hosts this site and it's gargantuan appetite for resources. I'm also not much of a writer. I'm a decent editor, I guess. I routinely take things from engineers and turn them into English. I'm just not the right man for the job. But, I will reserve my right to comment on the posts on the message boards. Again, the columnists do an excellent job. Our content is second to none. :D:

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well something positive came out of this miserable day at least. :smile:

Well it can't be a completely miserable day if id and I agree on something. What a pleasant surprise! :smile:

Here's something positive for the board: the Sox really need to take care of business in KC. We need to roll through there like a panzer division. I was underwhelmed with what Minnesota showed me in this series. If we lose the division to them, we haven't anyone to blame but ourselves. We've got the team to beat. Now if only that was enough to get the crown...

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Here's something positive for the board: the Sox really need to take care of business in KC. We need to roll through there like a panzer division. I was underwhelmed with what Minnesota showed me in this series. If we lose the division to them, we haven't anyone to blame but ourselves. We've got the team to beat. Now if only that was enough to get the crown... The Twinkies are tenacious. I read somewhere once that Twinkies and Velveeta could survive a nuclear holocaust and still be edible...well as edible as they were before the war. I hate the bastards, but you gotta give them props for that. They just keep coming.

Our Sox seem to be more of an all or nothing deal. I'm sure the statheads can put up proof to counter this, but on a psychological level it seems like our guys either kill you or get confused. Two totally different mentalities out there.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-11-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
The Twinkies are tenacious. ... I hate the bastards, but you gotta give them props for that. They just keep coming.

Yes, tenacity is their strong suit. Discussing the topic of professional ballplayers, I would expect talent to win over tenacity. As many have noted here, true professionals shouldn't need any further incentive to put out their very best effort every single game.

So is talent or tenacity going to win out? Hell if I know. We just split four games. It ought to be talent that prevails, but it may not. If tenacity wins out, put the blame squarely on the White Sox.

Presumably we will be aiming to win all 3 games in KC this weekend, regardless of the outcome of the first two? :smile:

Positive... positive... positive...

:bandance:

bobj4400
09-11-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
For instance, when we won the second game of the series all anyone could talk about was giving up three runs in the ninth.


Not to be negative or anything, but what happened in the two games following that 4 run ninth inning in game two??? White Sox fans expect the worst (much like Red Sox fans) and when we see something as seemingly innocent as a rally for the opposing team that comes up short, we immediately draw the worst conclusions. This is b/c in our experiences, most of the time, the worst is what happens!!!

Daver
09-11-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
I should preface this by saying that I have not read a front page article, other than Daver's, in an awfully long time

Hey at least I know one person reads my column.

I wish I had the time to write on a weekly basis,but the reality of the situation is I don't,I have other responsibilites on the site as well as real life issues that interfere with that.

That being said,I can toss in my 2 cents here,I agree with many that think the tone of this board is negative,and has been for quite some time,West and I have discussed this more than once,and we have expanded that discussion to include the entire board staff,we are trying to come up with a resolution,please have a little patience,that is all we ask.

As far as the front page goes,George is more than willing to run something if you submit it to him and it is publishable,if you have questions about that contact George,or contact me at daver@whitesoxinteractive.com
I would be more than happy to proofread anything.

hose
09-11-2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This is a very frustrating topic for me. There is only one HTML editor around here. When the front page was full of new material every day, I was lucky to get 6 hours of sleep before waking up and doing the job that actually paid my family's bills. Now I get 8 hours sleep but I have people telling me I'm not excercising proper editorial control over the main page. I created this website as a hobby, and never intended to do it for any other reason but to enjoy myself and offer something unique for Sox Fans. What's wrong with this picture?

And most of all, the critics offer NO SPECIFICS. It's just a bunch "general" this and "pervasive" that. It's "not just the website," but it's "not just Hal," either. Huh? There are 26 direct links to content on the main page, plus another dozen or so that organize and index several hundred more. Has all of "WSI" been indicted? Exactly what is the point of the title? Hell if I know...

A few specifics to back up the allegations would be really helpful.

The answer to any front page "balance" issues is as simple as getting additional writers. As for the tone of the message board posts, last I checked everyone has equal access for creating the tone the wider group sets for itself.


George let me tell you that I appreciate all of the time and effort that you put into making WSI.

jabrch
09-11-2003, 08:43 PM
1) Nice article Hal

and

2) George, if they don't like it...screw em...I, for one, appreciate what you do for WSI and for us.

TornLabrum
09-11-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Having just read Hal's article, I have to say that I liked it very much. Lack of accountability is a huge issue among Sox management, as well as the nation as a whole. The absence of a "buck stops here" attitude on almost every level of management, right on up to the White House, bothers me immensely. Everything is always (allegedly) someone else's fault. Hopefully, KW's current attitude predicts a change in direction for the franchise after JM is gone.

Thanks for the nice article, Hal, and thanks to George for posting it.

And thanks, Maurice, for seeing my larger point. I would also like to add that I occasionally receive email from readers of my "Fallen Arches" columns. I received about a half dozen responses to the one you just read. All were positive, and I answered every one of them. I also answer the critical ones, too, and I don't resort to ad hominem attacks when I do.

TornLabrum
09-11-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by bobj4400
Not to be negative or anything, but what happened in the two games following that 4 run ninth inning in game two??? White Sox fans expect the worst (much like Red Sox fans) and when we see something as seemingly innocent as a rally for the opposing team that comes up short, we immediately draw the worst conclusions. This is b/c in our experiences, most of the time, the worst is what happens!!!

See H. Vickery's Law in the WSI Dictionary.

Jerko
09-12-2003, 11:36 AM
I don't know about you all, but when I post on here, it is usually after a loss. I type away for about 5 minutes and then I feel better getting my thoughts and frustrations out. Now, after a win, I am already in a good mood so I don't need to come on here to extol the virtues of the White Sox. I think a lot more people post during and after losses; just check out the game day threads. On days of losses, you sometimes have 200 or more posts, but on days of wins, maybe 60 or 70. People post more when they are mad, that's why the 'negativity' kicks in!

Hangar18
09-12-2003, 11:55 AM
If someone sees things as Too NEgative, then start a thread stating something POSITIVE to take from all this. BElieve me, I like reading those threads too. It takes a number of us to start a conversation here. being turned off and not posting something positive is exactly what the media does to us in this city. they love the cubs and and give them more coverage getting them more "fans", thus more coverage. If you think its too negative here, please post something POSITIVE. I need that too

MarqSox
09-12-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
If someone sees things as Too NEgative, then start a thread stating something POSITIVE to take from all this. BElieve me, I like reading those threads too. It takes a number of us to start a conversation here. being turned off and not posting something positive is exactly what the media does to us in this city. they love the cubs and and give them more coverage getting them more "fans", thus more coverage. If you think its too negative here, please post something POSITIVE. I need that too
If only it were that simple. More and more lately, I've noticed that anytime someone posts something positive (especially after a loss) they are criticized and mocked as drinking Kubbie Koolaid or unwilling to see reality. I've posted more than once on here about something positive Manuel did, but instead of commenting on that, the replies are always "yeah but he's still an idiot." So even when positive threads are started, they always degenerate into negativity. :(:

Hangar18
09-12-2003, 12:43 PM
Someone here Needs to Bombard Us with POSITIVITY then.
Things arent looking good right now, then again, they dug themselves a pretty big hole. Oh how I wish we couldve had some of those Koch blown save games back. Or those 2 gms Loiaza lost 1-0 to the Tigers. Or that Sweep we suffered to them

Hangar18
09-12-2003, 12:46 PM
you have to admit, if we were to be so dumb and way overly optimistic, we'd be Cub Fans then wouldnt we?

MarqSox
09-12-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
you have to admit, if we were to be so dumb and way overly optimistic, we'd be Cub Fans then wouldnt we?
Absolutely ... but there's a difference between being 5 games out with 2 weeks to play but thinking we've still got a shot and being in first place with 2 weeks to play but thinking we're doomed. Of course you can be overly optimistic ... but you can also be overly pessimistic.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'd rather see the cup half full.

idseer
09-12-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
If only it were that simple. More and more lately, I've noticed that anytime someone posts something positive (especially after a loss) they are criticized and mocked as drinking Kubbie Koolaid or unwilling to see reality. I've posted more than once on here about something positive Manuel did, but instead of commenting on that, the replies are always "yeah but he's still an idiot." So even when positive threads are started, they always degenerate into negativity. :(:

what do you espect? posting something positive about manuel is akin to suggesting hitler had some good traits too. there IS nothing positive to take away about JM being the sox manager!
positive things you wouldn't get jumped on would be along the lines of someone being really hot like thomas got for awhile or something good happening on the farm. trying to show something nice about the teams biggest (imo) problem SHOULD get you criticized.

kempsted
09-12-2003, 01:17 PM
First of all PHG, I think that most people who post here really think of WSI as a community and not a web site. When they critise WSI for this or that they mean the posters here, the general tone etc and not really the web site itself. This maybe unfair of us because you guys do the work but there you are.

I don't think the tone is generally negative. When we win everyone is posting positive stuff (with exceptions we all know) and when we loose the sky is falling.

But gee guys this is a fan site and that is what fans do. We all want the Sox to win and we get disappointed and frustrated when they don't. If you are like me you may have one or two people to talk to at work so this is a great place to let off steam.

Think of conversations around the water cooler - how many of them are negative - how this or that is bad about where you work, who you work for etc. Most of them I would guess. That is human nature.

Also alot of people are naturally superstitious and don't want to jinks the Sox by saying they will win or are afraid if the Sox don't win after getting hopes up - so lets be down and be pleasantly surprised.

The facts.
1. This has been an up and down team. As Dave Wills said in June - this team sucks you in and then spits you back out. It has been true all year.

2. This season has been a LOT of fun. I think I can say this win or lose. Yes it will be disappointing and another year yada yada - but it has been fun which is what it should be all about for us as fans.

3. JM makes numerous stupid decisions that I have to yell about at the screen, my wife, my kids, the ones next to me at the ballpark - but sometimes we just want to write them here. Is this me being negative if I say Jerry was stupid to leave "bread and water" in for so long, put in Cotts in the Yanks game, not start Konerko yesterday? Half the fun of being a baseball fan is what would you do speculation.

Whatever.
WSI Rules Go SOX let's win

voodoochile
09-12-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
First of all PHG, I think that most people who post here really think of WSI as a community and not a web site. When they critise WSI for this or that they mean the posters here, the general tone etc and not really the web site itself. This maybe unfair of us because you guys do the work but there you are.

I don't think the tone is generally negative. When we win everyone is posting positive stuff (with exceptions we all know) and when we loose the sky is falling.

But gee guys this is a fan site and that is what fans do. We all want the Sox to win and we get disappointed and frustrated when they don't. If you are like me you may have one or two people to talk to at work so this is a great place to let off steam.

Think of conversations around the water cooler - how many of them are negative - how this or that is bad about where you work, who you work for etc. Most of them I would guess. That is human nature.

Also alot of people are naturally superstitious and don't want to jinks the Sox by saying they will win or are afraid if the Sox don't win after getting hopes up - so lets be down and be pleasantly surprised.

The facts.
1. This has been an up and down team. As Dave Wills said in June - this team sucks you in and then spits you back out. It has been true all year.

2. This season has been a LOT of fun. I think I can say this win or lose. Yes it will be disappointing and another year yada yada - but it has been fun which is what it should be all about for us as fans.

3. JM makes numerous stupid decisions that I have to yell about at the screen, my wife, my kids, the ones next to me at the ballpark - but sometimes we just want to write them here. Is this me being negative if I say Jerry was stupid to leave "bread and water" in for so long, put in Cotts in the Yanks game, not start Konerko yesterday? Half the fun of being a baseball fan is what would you do speculation.

Whatever.
WSI Rules Go SOX let's win

The concerns that PHG and the other admins/mods have about the comments aren't about the message board postings, but about the coments regarding the home page and the articles on it.

People are saying the site as a whole has a negative perception. Yet, when these same people are asked to come up with specific suggestions or submit articles to change that perception, they don't have any. They are strictly being negative about being negative with no solutions to offer. Every person who works on this site does it voluntarily. None of us get paid, in fact just the opposite. All of us pay money for the privledge of working here and bringing these forums and content to the users. We do it out of love for the White Sox and because we enjoy the "hobby" aspect of working on a website.

Like has been said, if anyone wants to submit articles for publication, use PHG or Daver's e-mail address to do so. No guarantees, but WSI is always looking for content and for new writers.

Other than that, there are some plans in the works, but you all are just going to have to wait and see. No major changes are coming until the season is over.

idseer
09-12-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No major changes are coming until the season is over.


WSI and the sox both! gee, it's going to be an interesting offseason again. (that's positive isn't it?) :smile:

MarqSox
09-12-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by idseer
what do you espect? posting something positive about manuel is akin to suggesting hitler had some good traits too. there IS nothing positive to take away about JM being the sox manager!
Thank you for illustrating the point better than I ever could. Crap like this response is really, really, really frustrating, nevermind ignorant. Manuel's a bad manager, but to think that he could never possibly do something right ... well, that's just stupid.

Because statements like the one above have become all too common, for my own sanity, I'm going to avoid the Clubhouse for awhile. You can find me in the Parking Lot or on another site where reasonable debate isn't drowned out by nutjobs who only wish to see the Sox in the worst light possible.

freddyvsjason
09-12-2003, 05:48 PM
It's the absense of positive articles that make this so one-sided. Even Mariotti every now & then writes a positive column on the SOX. It's rare no doubt, but it does happen.

Being a newbie I've not read many WSI articles. So I'm basically making this judgement by the tone in this thread. It's not easy writing positive things about the SOX. There are positives no doubt. Frank's season, Maggs consistency, Konerko's comeback, E-LO, Everett, Alomar's D, & the list goes on for the positive stories this year. But I think it's in a SOX fans nature to look for weaknesses & imperfections.

It's not that we are negative as much as we are seeking perfection. Not just in the field of play but every aspect of our team. This more than anything else separates us from scrub fans.

I do have a suggestion that might accomodate both sides. Perhaps you can pass this on to Hal.

Instead of writing about everything wrong from the perspective that there is nothing right, change the perspective. Start out the article praising that which is right & good about the SOX & then draw attention to that which is wrong & keeps us from being a playoff mainstay year after year.

There was a lot that went right in this last series with MIN. Don't leave it out.
But there was a lot that was wrong & gave MIN knew life. That is what keeps us from being perrenial contenders for the playoffs year after year.

If I get time (and that's always the question) I will attempt to write in this perspective & e-mail it to you. Maybe it will help promote change.

freddyvsjason
09-12-2003, 05:53 PM
I guess my anger toward Manuel is getting the best of me today.

I'm sorry but there have now been 2 very critical decisions that have helped diffuse SOX momentum in 2 very big series:
Not starting Buerhle in game 3 in NY.
Bringing in Paniagua in game 2 in CHI.

The only time you hold tryouts in these series is if you are getting your brains beat in.

What happens if the SOX go on to win 8-2 on Tues vs MIN? Is it just possible that a dejected MIN team comes out on Wed & gives Garland a better shot at Santana?

What happens if the SOX sweep NY in NY? Is it just possible the team is so high in the sky it crushes Detroit?

These are the little things that don't cost much in $$ that plague the SOX yr after yr.

I'm sorry, but it's time for Manuel to go.
Win or lose. The Pena's, Gardenhire's, even the Bakers don't make these kind of mistakes.

Dan H
09-12-2003, 06:19 PM
Criticizing the team is not always a sign of negativity. Some of us can go too far especially when angry. But many of us long-time fans have been down this path before, and have long since tired of late season or post season failures.

On the positive side, I think that has been a good year for the Sox. If the management doesn't fall back to its usual mentality and alienate fans more, I think the franchise can have a solid future in Chicago.

However, look at the roster. Valentin, Ordonenz, Thomas, Konerko, and Lee are not the kids that can play anymore. They have been the core of the team for several years now. If the Sox don't win anything this year, I think it is more than reasonable to make a hard assessment of this team and ask why championships aren't being won with a veteran team. It's been over six years since the White Flag Trade. We've waited long enough.

TornLabrum
09-12-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by freddyvsjason
It's the absense of positive articles that make this so one-sided. Even Mariotti every now & then writes a positive column on the SOX. It's rare no doubt, but it does happen.

Being a newbie I've not read many WSI articles. So I'm basically making this judgement by the tone in this thread. It's not easy writing positive things about the SOX. There are positives no doubt. Frank's season, Maggs consistency, Konerko's comeback, E-LO, Everett, Alomar's D, & the list goes on for the positive stories this year. But I think it's in a SOX fans nature to look for weaknesses & imperfections.

It's not that we are negative as much as we are seeking perfection. Not just in the field of play but every aspect of our team. This more than anything else separates us from scrub fans.

I do have a suggestion that might accomodate both sides. Perhaps you can pass this on to Hal.

Instead of writing about everything wrong from the perspective that there is nothing right, change the perspective. Start out the article praising that which is right & good about the SOX & then draw attention to that which is wrong & keeps us from being a playoff mainstay year after year.

There was a lot that went right in this last series with MIN. Don't leave it out.
But there was a lot that was wrong & gave MIN knew life. That is what keeps us from being perrenial contenders for the playoffs year after year.

If I get time (and that's always the question) I will attempt to write in this perspective & e-mail it to you. Maybe it will help promote change.

Sorry, when the editorial content of what I write is dictated to me, I will quit writing.

idseer
09-12-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Thank you for illustrating the point better than I ever could. Crap like this response is really, really, really frustrating, nevermind ignorant. Manuel's a bad manager, but to think that he could never possibly do something right ... well, that's just stupid.

Because statements like the one above have become all too common, for my own sanity, I'm going to avoid the Clubhouse for awhile. You can find me in the Parking Lot or on another site where reasonable debate isn't drowned out by nutjobs who only wish to see the Sox in the worst light possible.


you may as well avoid the clubhouse marq. you don't seem to grasp the obvious too well. maybe you don't like the reference to hitler? tough noogies. i think the example was very apt. if you can't understand why it's a waste of time pointing out the very few good points of a man who has shown game after game that he has no idea how to manage a baseball team then you're beyond reason and a poor fan at that.

in fact i don't look at the sox in the worst possible light. but when i see where the bleeding is most obvious i don't stand there and say ... "well the blood is a very pretty red."
if you can't see it then as jm himself said ... you don't understand the game.

TornLabrum
09-13-2003, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by idseer
you may as well avoid the clubhouse marq. you don't seem to grasp the obvious too well. maybe you don't like the reference to hitler? tough noogies. i think the example was very apt. if you can't understand why it's a waste of time pointing out the very few good points of a man who has shown game after game that he has no idea how to manage a baseball team then you're beyond reason and a poor fan at that.

in fact i don't look at the sox in the worst possible light. but when i see where the bleeding is most obvious i don't stand there and say ... "well the blood is a very pretty red."
if you can't see it then as jm himself said ... you don't understand the game.

Jerry Manuel has many very good points. He is a very nice person who really does seem to live his religious beliefs. His wife is very much like him and has been quite active working with various fundraisers for charity. Unfortunately none of this makes Manuel a good manager.

sox_fan_forever
09-13-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Jerry Manuel has many very good points. He is a very nice person who really does seem to live his religious beliefs. His wife is very much like him and has been quite active working with various fundraisers for charity. Unfortunately none of this makes Manuel a good manager.

Exactly. That is the way I have felt for quite some time. I think Jerry Manuel is a good man. He is not a good manager. Maybe a good little league manager, but not a good major league manager.

Nellie_Fox
09-13-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by idseer
...if you can't understand why it's a waste of time pointing out the very few good points of a man who has shown game after game that he has no idea how to manage a baseball team then you're beyond reason and a poor fan at that. See, this is exactly the stuff that drives people away. Posters who can't just disagree and make their points, but have to add in "if you don't agree with me then you're stupid and don't know anything about baseball."

My whole point has, of course, been missed by many. It has evolved into the typical "all or nothing" argument. I have no problem with people who criticize a game, a decision, a play. It is the "this guy can do absolutely nothing right, this team can do absolutely nothing right, this management can do absolutely nothing right" attitude that gets old, old, old.

shane
09-13-2003, 01:15 AM
Also alot of people are naturally superstitious and don't want to jinks the Sox by saying they will win or are afraid if the Sox don't win after getting hopes up - so lets be down and be pleasantly surprised.

I'll tell you this much, all Sox players are officially on the bench of my fantasy team. Put them in, they suck. Sit them out, they get 5 rbis or pick up a W. I'm done with them. From now on, I want them winning the real games. I could care less about the fantasy team at this point. Hell, I'm beginning to feel like I'm responsible for some of Buehrle's and E-Lo's losses.

Dadawg_77
09-13-2003, 01:29 AM
First off, PHG, FWC, Dave and VC and who ever is in those high level talks in Oslo, if my two cents count, I would keep the board open to what ever and who ever. I not sure there is much you can do to urge positive posts or decrease negative post without banning some of boards half emptied posters.

All the talk about positive and negative I think is all about the Curse of a being a Fan. Some of us (posters),our either lacking it (more power to you, I wish I was one) or not seeing the curse playing itself out on the board. At WSI we are all White Sox fans and more hardcore then 95% of the population out there or else why even take the time to register. While sweeping statements like Jerry sucks and couldn't handle ALU baseball are incorrect and ridiculous in some ways, they are expressions of the curse. We, the fans, are very happy when our team win but quite sorrowful when the team loses. This why the message board is extremely negative after loss and very happy place after a win. Go and look at threads back when the Sox were making the run at KC for example. While this does cover the extremes of that always half full and always half emptied people, the majority of us are half full people after glorious victory and a half emptied fan after a crushing defeat.

There is a point of prospective issue here also. Some people tend to look at Sox a series at a time, some its a week or month, while others are game to game with bigger games bringing out more joy or sorrow.

IMHO This season's expectations were very high at the start, and Sox strength became its weakness out of the gate. The lack of wins in April and May put the Sox and us in a hole a hole. For me as a fan this is equivalent of going to a party expecting flowing kegs of Guinness and getting cans of Natural Light after paying a $25 cover charge. No what the ads say you get bitter from that.

Maybe some of us, if not all, are putting to much of life in the Sox from the time following them to the time it takes to earn the money to buy tickets. After while you expect to see that investment rewarded and when it doesn't happen, while we all see what happens.

My boss said to me after coming back from the game on Thursday, that this was really the first time he cared about a game in a long time. Maybe the negative just shows that fans care and are dying for a winner.

FarWestChicago
09-13-2003, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
First off, PHG, FWC, Dave and VC and who ever is in those high level talks in Oslo, if my two cents count, I would keep the board open to what ever and who ever. I not sure there is much you can do to urge positive posts or decrease negative post without banning some of boards half emptied posters.The forums will always be open to non-troll posters. Don't worry. :smile:

idseer
09-13-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
See, this is exactly the stuff that drives people away. Posters who can't just disagree and make their points, but have to add in "if you don't agree with me then you're stupid and don't know anything about baseball."

My whole point has, of course, been missed by many. It has evolved into the typical "all or nothing" argument. I have no problem with people who criticize a game, a decision, a play. It is the "this guy can do absolutely nothing right, this team can do absolutely nothing right, this management can do absolutely nothing right" attitude that gets old, old, old.

this post is like the ref that only sees the reaction to an incident, not the incident itself. if you look carefully nellie, you'll see this post was a reply to someone who did just what you're accusing me of. he called me a nutjob then threatened us all with his abandonment of this board.

i really do believe you're too tender to be here nellie. you believe everyone should be like you. talk the same way and have all the same sensitivities. well pfffft! ain't gonna happen.

TornLabrum
09-13-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by idseer
this post is like the ref that only sees the reaction to an incident, not the incident itself. if you look carefully nellie, you'll see this post was a reply to someone who did just what you're accusing me of. he called me a nutjob then threatened us all with his abandonment of this board.

i really do believe you're too tender to be here nellie. you believe everyone should be like you. talk the same way and have all the same sensitivities. well pfffft! ain't gonna happen.

I'd say the thing that makes me the most uncomfortable about the forums is the increase in the number of ad hominem attacks on other posters. The tone of these boards would pick up considerably if posts containing attacks on other users were edited or deleted.

Back before MLB took over the team boards, I was one of the moderators of the Sox board at whitesox.com. Editing/deleting posts with personal attacks on other users took up more time than anything else.

idseer
09-13-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
See, this is exactly the stuff that drives people away.


and by the way. i completely disagree with you here too. while i have no way of proving it, i would bet most anything that in fact a lot of 'in your face' disagreements here draw more people's interest than turns them off. sure there are a few who can't stand bickering. the "polite english tea set" is sometimes call them.
i have nothing against politeness, but if you expect everyone here on a message board to adhere to your particular rules about engagement .... you're crazy!

voodoochile
09-13-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by idseer
and by the way. i completely disagree with you here too. while i have no way of proving it, i would bet most anything that in fact a lot of 'in your face' disagreements here draw more people's interest than turns them off. sure there are a few who can't stand bickering. the "polite english tea set" is sometimes call them.
i have nothing against politeness, but if you expect everyone here on a message board to adhere to your particular rules about engagement .... you're crazy!

While I disagree with the idea of constantly editing posts to delete individual arguments between posters, there is a certain level of decorum that should be adhered to while posting at WSI.

Nellie in no way called you out personally. He merely used your post as an example of what he was referring to. You chose to take it as an attack on you personally, when I don't think it was intended that way. You have now made two responses to it that both call Nellie out personally. It's time to move on...

WSI has never been a place where people come to watch fights. At least not since certain posters no longer post here. That decision was made for a reason. You want to see that kind of thread or poster interaction, there are plenty of boards where it is much more common, but this isn't one of them, and it won't be so long as I am moderator here.

idseer
09-13-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
While I disagree with the idea of constantly editing posts to delete individual arguments between posters, there is a certain level of decorum that should be adhered to while posting at WSI.

Nellie in no way called you out personally. He merely used your post as an example of what he was referring to. You chose to take it as an attack on you personally, when I don't think it was intended that way. You have now made two responses to it that both call Nellie out personally. It's time to move on...

WSI has never been a place where people come to watch fights. At least not since certain posters no longer post here. That decision was made for a reason. You want to see that kind of thread or poster interaction, there are plenty of boards where it is much more common, but this isn't one of them, and it won't be so long as I am moderator here.

well, you're right. i did take them personally. i believe that's exactly how they were meant. by both nellie AND marq. if i qouted you then bashed 'this type of person' you'd take it personally too.

and don't confuse what i said about bickering and it drawing readers with fighting. my reference had to do with the kind of remarks which started this thread and the complaints about JM and such. things that obviously moderators don't feel is beyond civility since they're not removed. yet some (this thread starter for example) feel it's just too much for them.

the longest threads here are often threads where there is heated disagreement. that was my point.

idseer
09-13-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by freddyvsjason
But a gremlin with mighty power has derailed the momentum time & again. This gremlin goes by the name of Jerry Manuel & has manager of the SOX he is afforded the opportunity to tinker with every aspect of this team on game day.

He used to go by the name of the Tinkerer because he loves to tinker with the lineup, the rotation, & the bench.
For the most part the SOX players have been able to overcome his tinkering. But since NY he's taken on a whole new persona: momentum killer.

If the players are not able to overcome the Momentum Killer then this is the game all SOX fans should look to as the one that changed the tide.



yeah but, you really should say something positive about jerry too.
:o:

PaleHoseGeorge
09-13-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
While I disagree with the idea of constantly editing posts to delete individual arguments between posters, there is a certain level of decorum that should be adhered to while posting at WSI.

Nellie in no way called you out personally. He merely used your post as an example of what he was referring to. You chose to take it as an attack on you personally, when I don't think it was intended that way. You have now made two responses to it that both call Nellie out personally. It's time to move on...

WSI has never been a place where people come to watch fights. At least not since certain posters no longer post here. That decision was made for a reason. You want to see that kind of thread or poster interaction, there are plenty of boards where it is much more common, but this isn't one of them, and it won't be so long as I am moderator here.

First let me say it is never a good idea to compare anyone with Adolph Hitler. He represents far more evil than anybody else can ever be accused of doing. Let's leave Hitler out of this, shall we?

Unfortunately that wasn't the essence of MarqSox' complaint and it has nothing to do with Nellie's subsequent complaints either. Their complaints are about ad hominem attacks. Nellie is specifically complaining about id's attack. However Nellie apparently has no issues with MarqSox' calling id a nutjob-- because as id himself noted (and Nellie specifically replied to) the attack was in-kind to MarqSox'. What does that say about Nellie's creditability to complain about ad hominem attacks? Is the practice okay as long a Nellie agrees with you?

Sorry about whose feelings I'm hurting. If Nellie meant to say something else, he should have written something besides what he did. We're not mind readers around here and we're all accountable for what we say. Seems pretty fair to me...

I would submit that most of the complaints around here can all be traced to people using the English language in an imprecise manner. The misunderstandings that inevitably follow lead to long-term hard feelings. That's the real shame of this. It's 100 percent avoidable, if only we work at it.

Jjav829
09-13-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by shane
I'll tell you this much, all Sox players are officially on the bench of my fantasy team. Put them in, they suck. Sit them out, they get 5 rbis or pick up a W. I'm done with them. From now on, I want them winning the real games. I could care less about the fantasy team at this point. Hell, I'm beginning to feel like I'm responsible for some of Buehrle's and E-Lo's losses.

Haha. I know what you mean. In one of my leagues I had Frank in my utility spot. At some point after the All Star break I benched him for Brad Wilkerson because Frank was slumping. For some reason, I just couldn't find it in me to put Frank back in even when he was hitting like a HR a night. So I sat there with Brad Wilkerson and Robert Fick as my utility men rather than put Frank back in. Like if I put Frank back in he was going to suck. I finally put him back in when the playoffs started. But I left him on the bench the whole time and every time I would look at the lines from the previous night it would be something like Frank: 2/4 1 run 1 HR 2 RBI Wilkerson: 0/4 0 runs 0 HRs 0 RBI. :smile:

ma-gaga
09-13-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

I would submit that most of the complaints around here can all be traced to people using the English language in an imprecise manner. The misunderstandings that inevitably follow lead to long-term hard feelings. That's the real shame of this. It's 100 percent avoidable, if only we work at it.

The posters that drive me nuts, are the ones that NEED TO TALK REALLY LOUDLY ALL THE TIME. BE GOOD!

Them, and the one's that refuse to use punctuation and capitalization because, "theyre not in schhool anymoor".

:) The chief has spoken. Say what you SAY, not what you mean.

Nick@Nite
09-13-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
First let me say it is never a good idea to compare anyone with Adolph Hitler. He represents far more evil than anybody else can ever be accused of doing. Let's leave Hitler out of this, shall we?

Well said... and thank you.

idseer
09-13-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
The posters that drive me nuts, are the ones that NEED TO TALK REALLY LOUDLY ALL THE TIME. BE GOOD!

Them, and the one's that refuse to use punctuation and capitalization because, "theyre not in schhool anymoor".

:) The chief has spoken. Say what you SAY, not what you mean.

i fall in to that group. sorry. i'm just not anal enough for capitalization to concern me. it's not like we're writing a resume here. i DO at least try to spell correctly, not use shortcuts such as 'u' for you or 'b4' for before, and usually place my comma's in the right place. i'm not a very fast typer and capitalizing stuff makes everything i type just about twice as hard.
sorry if it bothers you, but i see my style as perfectly readable.

Nellie_Fox
09-13-2003, 03:17 PM
Okay, I surrender. You're correct, George, I guess there is no way I can make my language precise enough. No matter how many times I proofread it and edit it and change it before I hit the "submit reply" button, someone immediately finds something in there that I didn't intend and don't believe to be true.

I've painted myself into a corner where everything I say is going to be dissected and parsed and I'll have to defend myself every time I turn around. So, I'll just shut up for a while.

34 Inch Stick
09-13-2003, 03:29 PM
Don't be foolish. It's just this thread that is getting overanalyzed. The board would be missing something without your posting during this stretch.

We should have a cooling off period on this post for a while. If the Sox lose out in Boston and Minnesota there will be no way to stop the negativity anyway. If they win, it will be hard for even the most pessimistic among us to contain our joy.

FarWestChicago
09-13-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Don't be foolish. It's just this thread that is getting overanalyzed. The board would be missing something without your posting during this stretch.

We should have a cooling off period on this post for a while. If the Sox lose out in Boston and Minnesota there will be no way to stop the negativity anyway. If they win, it will be hard for even the most pessimistic among us to contain our joy. We can't stop yet. It's almost tomato time!! :D:

FarWestChicago
09-13-2003, 03:44 PM
That was it :cool:

:tomatoaward

PaleHoseGeorge
09-13-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Okay, I surrender. You're correct, George, I guess there is no way I can make my language precise enough. No matter how many times I proofread it and edit it and change it before I hit the "submit reply" button, someone immediately finds something in there that I didn't intend and don't believe to be true.

I've painted myself into a corner where everything I say is going to be dissected and parsed and I'll have to defend myself every time I turn around. So, I'll just shut up for a while.

Suit yourself, Nellie. I didn't relish the idea of spending the next several days trying to figure out exactly what you were trying to say from one post to the next. As always you're free to post whatever and whenever you please.

However, when it comes to making unfair charges against the volunteer staff of this website, you'll be dealing with me. I'm sure you realize that too late to do you any good. Maybe we're both wiser for it.

Procol Harum
09-14-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Don't be foolish. It's just this thread that is getting overanalyzed.


"Zo, vat you are really zaying is dat vhen you vas little, your fadder vas a Vite Sox fan und it scarred you for life, no?"

Spiff
09-14-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Okay, I surrender. You're correct, George, I guess there is no way I can make my language precise enough. No matter how many times I proofread it and edit it and change it before I hit the "submit reply" button, someone immediately finds something in there that I didn't intend and don't believe to be true.

I've painted myself into a corner where everything I say is going to be dissected and parsed and I'll have to defend myself every time I turn around. So, I'll just shut up for a while.

hey, you're not the first one to feel that way, and you won't be the last. in fact it will probably happen to me too as a result of this, but that doesn't really bother me.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-14-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Spiff
hey, you're not the first one to feel that way, and you won't be the last. in fact it will probably happen to me too as a result of this, but that doesn't really bother me.

Nah. We like having Nellie around. You, too. You always come back. :smile:

39thandWallace
09-14-2003, 02:52 PM
[/B][/QUOTE] Again I live in Minnesota, and get to see 15-20 games a year on TV>

That's it right there. I've been to The Cell for 25 games this year and have seen 90% of the games on TV. It get's very frustrating if you live and die with a team everyday on TV or in person.

TornLabrum
09-14-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by 39thandWallace


That's it right there. I've been to The Cell for 25 games this year and have seen 90% of the games on TV. It get's very frustrating if you live and die with a team everyday on TV or in person.

Yup. You get to see the General in all of his glory: tinkering away, blundering away, and looking dazed and confused much of the time.