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NewyorkSoxFan
09-10-2003, 03:28 PM
Says that Big Hurt should be the AL MVP.

I hope he wins it despite his lower than normal batting avg, Frank has been huge when it counts. As hawk always says "Dont tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit em".


NYSF

pudge
09-10-2003, 03:33 PM
Ya know, people outside chicago won't realize Frank has delivered more clutch hits this season than any other time in his career. But Hawk mentioned that last night. I do think Frank deserves the MVP - sorta the same way Tejada earned it last year.

34 Inch Stick
09-10-2003, 03:43 PM
Once he breaks the 100 RBI mark and 40 homers then the credentials start to look impressive to those not paying attention. A division championship and a home run leadership would work wonders. Home run totals always get people's attention.

Best thing Frank could do for himself is to have a great couple of weeks capped by a huge series against the Yankees.

cheeses_h_rice
09-10-2003, 03:46 PM
IMO, Frank's had a good year, but not an MVP one. He's got a lot of K's this year, and his average is very un-Frank-like. And I'd debate his clutchness throughout the year, too -- no doubt he's been turning it on as of late, but earlier in the year? Nuh uh.

Loaiza's a much more deserving candidate.

chisoxfanatic
09-10-2003, 03:49 PM
Also, they gave Loaiza major props saying that he deserves to win the Cy Young award...It's so nice to see that we're getting MAJOR props, and deservedly so! It's been quite a while since things have clicked so well in this clubhouse!

Here's to more Soxess! :gulp:

BeerHandle
09-10-2003, 03:50 PM
Thomas has taking this team and carried then on his back afte the All Star break. Since the break he leads the league in homers and rbi's. In order to win the MVP title he needs to get his average to .280. If he does that then he will be really hot and we will be in the playoffs!!

Thunderstruck30
09-10-2003, 03:51 PM
IMO Frank doesnt deserve AL MVP. I dont even think hes White Sox MVP. His batting average isnt good enough and home runs are overrated. Also, he hasnt been solid the whole year. He was constantly hot, then cold, hot, then cold, hot, cold...

Gumshoe
09-10-2003, 04:02 PM
Thomas for MVP is a JOKE. Maggs is much more deserving and if Lee hit #3 he would have even better numbers than he has now. Thomas has been hot, but not that consistent all year. Maggs or Carlos for sure should be mentioned. Also, Thomas never hits the ball to right anymore. AT ALL. All he hits are homers or doubles down the line. He does walk, but look at how huge Lee was last night!

He's the man.

I wouldn't argue Loaiza either, he is very deserving, if you think pitchers should get MVPs.

Gumshoe

daveeym
09-10-2003, 04:34 PM
Nothing against Maggs but you have to look at Frank, Lee and Loiza before him. Maggs' stats are great but I don't recall as many big hits out of him as I do with Frank and Lee.

Funny how every year there's talk about a pitcher or two as MVP but Loiza doesn't get mentioned there at all (even in the NL Gagne and Smoltz were talked about before the dodgers slipped a bit and Smoltz got injured).

Also, I really think you'd have to go with Lee. Considering how good his numbers are and that he's done a lot of the damage while continuous being moved around in the lineup. He's done most of his second half damage in 2 spot for crying out loud. He hits bombs, steals bases, hits in the clutch, moves runners over and has played an above average left field.

FarmerAndy
09-10-2003, 04:37 PM
Sure, Ordonez has been more consistent. But Frank has been clutch. There was a stretch for a period of a few weeks in June where Thomas was carrying the whole team on his back.

Yeah, he's been streaky this year, but he's turned it on when it's most needed. That's why Frank has been more valuable. I can't think of a stretch where Magglio carried the team by himself. Plus, Maggs has hit into one too many inning ending double plays this year to get my MVP vote. Don't get me wrong, I love Maggs, but Frank is definately our MVP on the offensive side of things.

jeremyb1
09-10-2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
Says that Big Hurt should be the AL MVP.

I hope he wins it despite his lower than normal batting avg, Frank has been huge when it counts. As hawk always says "Dont tell me what you hit, tell me when you hit em".

It'd be pretty ironic if Frank won the MVP considering that this isn't one of his better seasons. I'm not sure Frank is the best choice but he should be considered.

thepaulbowski
09-10-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Loaiza's a much more deserving candidate.

That's what the Cy Young is for.

pudge
09-10-2003, 04:41 PM
Those who don't think Frank deserves MVP, how do you explain Tejada getting it last season simply by hitting all those clutch homers in September? Tejada won it with one good month, I don't see why Frank can't win it with three clutch months.

Also, don't focus on Frank's average, his OBP is actually higher than Maggs'. Also, Maggs numbers with runners in scoring position this season are brutal.

daveeym
09-10-2003, 04:44 PM
Carlos

Jjav829
09-10-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Thomas for MVP is a JOKE. Maggs is much more deserving and if Lee hit #3 he would have even better numbers than he has now. Thomas has been hot, but not that consistent all year. Maggs or Carlos for sure should be mentioned. Also, Thomas never hits the ball to right anymore. AT ALL. All he hits are homers or doubles down the line. He does walk, but look at how huge Lee was last night!

He's the man.

I wouldn't argue Loaiza either, he is very deserving, if you think pitchers should get MVPs.

Gumshoe

OMG, a hitter who only walks, and hits HR's and doubles? Why would I want someone like that on my team?

I think both Frank and Maggs are deserving. Hell, right now I couldn't care less about MVP. Im just glad Frank, Maggs, and Carlos are on our side.

RKMeibalane
09-10-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
OMG, a hitter who only walks, and hits HR's and doubles? Why would I want someone like that on my team?

I think both Frank and Maggs are deserving. Hell, right now I couldn't care less about MVP. Im just glad Frank, Maggs, and Carlos are on our side.

Exactly! As Sox fans, we should be happy that our best players have been productive this season, and that they are helping the Sox move towards a division title.

As far as I am concerned, this debate should be put on hold until the Sox have wrapped up a post-season berth. Right now, I'm more concerned that they hold off the Twins and Royals and win this thing.

I would love to see Frank, Maggs, Carlos, or anybody else win the MVP, but if that doesn't happen, it's not the end of the world. I would much rather see Sox players carrying a WS trophy, as opposed to an MVP trophy.

Gumshoe
09-10-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
OMG, a hitter who only walks, and hits HR's and doubles? Why would I want someone like that on my team?

I think both Frank and Maggs are deserving. Hell, right now I couldn't care less about MVP. Im just glad Frank, Maggs, and Carlos are on our side.

The last thing you say here is the only thing that is right, and of course it is most important. However, J, I never said I didn't want Thomas on the team. I hate it when people on boards do this. I said there is no way Thomas is deserving of the MVP, because

a) Lee has been as clutch AND has better numbers in many respects than Frank
b) Lee has been moved consistently around in the lineup
c) Lee plays D and has stolen bases
d) Thomas hits in front of our BEST HITTER, Magglio Ordoņez.

Thomas comes up big at times, and I'm glad. However, he is not anywhere near where he used to be and after this year, it won't disappoint me at all if we let him go and let Lee fill in the 3 spot. Especially if that gives us the ability to keep a pitcher --- because we'll gain versatility in opening that DH spot for someone that CAN play D, as well.

Gumshoe

PaleHoseGeorge
09-10-2003, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by pudge
...Also, don't focus on Frank's average, his OBP is actually higher than Maggs'. Also, Maggs numbers with runners in scoring position this season are brutal.

Exactly. If the A.L. managers had a vote, Frank would easily win over Magglio. They've been walking Frank to get to Maggs. They're getting rewarded with double-play grounders, too.

faneidde
09-10-2003, 07:37 PM
No one wants to let Frank beat them. After he hit those two two-run homers to beat the Angels he hasn't been getting much to hit. Mags has done great, but Frank is the MVP.

longwood
09-10-2003, 09:19 PM
While I agree that this year does not represent the numbers of the Frank of old, I think he has silence his critics that said he was washed up after the last 2 years performance.

He's also come through where its counted and has carried the team when it counted. I'm a huge Maggs fan, but Magg's tend to hit into 2 many inning ending double plays. Magg's the most consistant member of the team, but hasn't made the push when it counted.

Is Frank's numbers enough to earn him the MVP? I think the jurys still out until the end of the month.

RKMeibalane
09-10-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Exactly. If the A.L. managers had a vote, Frank would easily win over Magglio. They've been walking Frank to get to Maggs. They're getting rewarded with double-play grounders, too.

Agreed. Maggs has a superior batting average, but Frank has done more damage at the plate. So many of Maggs at-bats produce negative results for the Sox as a whole, and that's not what an MVP is supposed to do.

Again, though, I'll worry more about this once the Sox clinch.

MarkEdward
09-10-2003, 09:25 PM
Gumshoe, I agreed with you on the whole Jimenez deal. But you're way off base here...

Originally posted by Gumshoe
[B]The last thing you say here is the only thing that is right, and of course it is most important. However, J, I never said I didn't want Thomas on the team. I hate it when people on boards do this. I said there is no way Thomas is deserving of the MVP, because

a) Lee has been as clutch AND has better numbers in many respects than Frank

Clutch?
Thomas, Close and Late: .310/.450/.676
Lee, Close and Late: .235/.253/.376

Also, what 'better numbers' do you speak of?
OBP: Thomas- .390; Lee- .336
SLG: Thomas- .562; Lee- .505
BBs: Thomas- 93; Lee- 35
HRs: Thomas- 39; Lee- 28
2Bs: Thomas- 28; Lee- 32
VORP: Thomas- 53.2; Lee- 24.2
EQA: Thomas- .315; Lee- .280
Win Shares: Thomas- 20; Lee 17

b) Lee has been moved consistently around in the lineup

And that makes him better than Thomas... how?

c) Lee plays D and has stolen bases

I highly doubt those 17 stolen bases really accounted for that much more offense (if it did, EQA would show it). Also, it's not like Lee's playing an important defensive position. Thomas' offense more than makes up for his defensive shortcomings.

d) Thomas hits in front of our BEST HITTER, Magglio Ordoņez.

And that makes Lee a better player... how?

However, he is not anywhere near where he used to be and after this year, it won't disappoint me at all if we let him go and let Lee fill in the 3 spot.

Thomas' career OPS: .997
Thomas' 2003 OPS: .952
A bit of a drop off, but he hasn't fallen off the face of the offensive planet.

Especially if that gives us the ability to keep a pitcher --- because we'll gain versatility in opening that DH spot for someone that CAN play D, as well.


There are quite a few players I'd like to get rid of next year (Alomars, Everett, Koch, but that another topic), but Thomas is definitely not one of them. I'm not a fan of keeping players past their prime for sentimental reasons, but I really hope Frank retires in a White Sox uniform.

Edit: Withouot doing much research, I think I'd take Alex Rodriguez for AL MVP.

Gumshoe
09-10-2003, 09:29 PM
Fine, but put Lee in the 3 spot and I think he puts up numbers easily equal or superior to Thomas. Thomas, even while showing us some of his past (which is great), isn't the hitter he was, nor even close.

Gumshoe

RKMeibalane
09-10-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Fine, but put Lee in the 3 spot and I think he puts up numbers easily equal or superior to Thomas. Thomas, even while showing us some of his past (which is great), isn't the hitter he was, nor even close.

Gumshoe

I agree that Frank is not the hitter he once was. However, he is still better than 96-98% of the hitters in Major League Baseball, including Carlos Lee.

Carlos is a terrific ballplayer, but I have yet to hear his name being mentioned alongside phrases such as "Hall of Famer."

Gumshoe
09-10-2003, 09:40 PM
RIGHT NOW, who do you take:

Carlos
Frank

I say Carlos not even thinking twice. It's a no brainer. Frank is a hall of famer because of what he USED to be.

Granted, Thomas is one of the best hitters of all time, but that was long ago. Anyone that acts like Magglio is not a better hitter than Frank is absolutely crazy.

Gumshoe

RKMeibalane
09-10-2003, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
RIGHT NOW, who do you take:

Carlos
Frank

I say Carlos not even thinking twice. It's a no brainer. Frank is a hall of famer because of what he USED to be.

Granted, Thomas is one of the best hitters of all time, but that was long ago. Anyone that acts like Magglio is not a better hitter than Frank is absolutely crazy.

Gumshoe

Nobody said that Frank was a better hitter than Magglio.

Dadawg_77
09-10-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
RIGHT NOW, who do you take:

Carlos
Frank

I say Carlos not even thinking twice. It's a no brainer. Frank is a hall of famer because of what he USED to be.

Granted, Thomas is one of the best hitters of all time, but that was long ago. Anyone that acts like Magglio is not a better hitter than Frank is absolutely crazy.

Gumshoe

Well it is a good thing you are not the Sox GM then.

voodoochile
09-11-2003, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Fine, but put Lee in the 3 spot and I think he puts up numbers easily equal or superior to Thomas. Thomas, even while showing us some of his past (which is great), isn't the hitter he was, nor even close.

Gumshoe

Actually, if you are going to swap anyone, swap Maggs and Frank and leave Lee alone, but IT ISN'T BROKEN at present (even if they didn't score many runs tonight) so please DON'T TRY TO FIX IT...

:)

voodoochile
09-11-2003, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
RIGHT NOW, who do you take:

Carlos
Frank

I say Carlos not even thinking twice. It's a no brainer. Frank is a hall of famer because of what he USED to be.

Granted, Thomas is one of the best hitters of all time, but that was long ago. Anyone that acts like Magglio is not a better hitter than Frank is absolutely crazy.

Gumshoe

You are saying you wouldn't take Frank at the Sox option of $8M next year, and I think the Sox would be crazy to NOT take it, but if I am Frank, I don't trust them, so I take my own option and am careful with the money for once...

Gumshoe
09-11-2003, 11:03 AM
Why is everyone guilty of making things out of posts that aren't there? I set up the hypothetical of Lee hitting 3rd and putting up better numbers. I didn't say change anything about the team RIGHT NOW.

To be honest, I love what Frank has done this year, but I dont trust him or his attitude, AND he's getting older, I'd trade him in a second while his value is HIGH. I won't shed a tear if he voluntarily leaves Chicago. Not one, Voodoo. And I don't really dislike him, either. I think he's a really good hitter. But he can go to a really ****ty hitter REALLY quickly --- or else how do you explain his past? Lose Everett and R. Alomar and a pitcher and this Clubhouse turns back to CRAP>

Gumshoe

voodoochile
09-11-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Why is everyone guilty of making things out of posts that aren't there? I set up the hypothetical of Lee hitting 3rd and putting up better numbers. I didn't say change anything about the team RIGHT NOW.

To be honest, I love what Frank has done this year, but I dont trust him or his attitude, AND he's getting older, I'd trade him in a second while his value is HIGH. I won't shed a tear if he voluntarily leaves Chicago. Not one, Voodoo. And I don't really dislike him, either. I think he's a really good hitter. But he can go to a really ****ty hitter REALLY quickly --- or else how do you explain his past? Lose Everett and R. Alomar and a pitcher and this Clubhouse turns back to CRAP>

Gumshoe

What "past" history of being a ****ty hitter are you referring to? 2001 when he played in 20 games? 2002 When he was recovering from 2001? When Frank is healthy he is one of the most feared hitters in baseball. But, I've beaten that horse to death around these parts, if you don't see it, then I can't change your mind...

MarkEdward
09-11-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Fine, but put Lee in the 3 spot and I think he puts up numbers easily equal or superior to Thomas. Thomas, even while showing us some of his past (which is great), isn't the hitter he was, nor even close.

Gumshoe

How will putting Lee in the third spot dramitically increase his walk rate? How will he gain .060 points of slugging batting in the third spot?

And Thomas is about only .030 points off his career OPS this year. How is that 'not even close' to being the player he once was?

Gumshoe
09-11-2003, 08:19 PM
In case you haven't noticed, Frank does NOT hit to the opposite field any more. He pulls everything, unlike times of old. He rarely comes up big with RISP (.255), he strikes out more than he walks ... I can tell by watching him. He is GOOD still, but when he comes up in situations like today (2nd and 3rd in a big situation), I have no confidence in him. I would much rather have Lee or Ordonez up there. Is that good enough? I don't think you can honestly look yourself in the mirror, knowing baseball or watching the Sox and say that Frank Thomas is even NEAR what he used to be.

Gumshoe

voodoochile
09-11-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
In case you haven't noticed, Frank does NOT hit to the opposite field any more. He pulls everything, unlike times of old. He rarely comes up big with RISP (.255), he strikes out more than he walks ... I can tell by watching him. He is GOOD still, but when he comes up in situations like today (2nd and 3rd in a big situation), I have no confidence in him. I would much rather have Lee or Ordonez up there. Is that good enough? I don't think you can honestly look yourself in the mirror, knowing baseball or watching the Sox and say that Frank Thomas is even NEAR what he used to be.

Gumshoe

Yet he still performs better than any of those guys you mention - at least according to the most objective means of measure (their stats). It isn't because he is worse than those guys, it is because he is worse than he used to be. I see... great logic.

Maybe you should look at his stats since he went to the open stance in June and then tell us how you feel. For the last 4 months of the season he has easily been the best hitter on the Sox.

BTW, you bring up Frank failing with two-outs and men on second and third today and say you'd rather have Lee up there in that situation, but you completely ignore that Lee failed one bat earlier with one less out.

You are just a hater, period...

MarkEdward
09-11-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
In case you haven't noticed, Frank does NOT hit to the opposite field any more. He pulls everything, unlike times of old.

And that really hasn't affected (effected?) him much, considering his .950 OPS.

He rarely comes up big with RISP (.255),

You conveniently left out his .427 OBP and .536 SLG with RISP .

he strikes out more than he walks ... I can tell by watching him.

And...? He's still fourth in walks. I don't care if a guy strikes out 200 times, if he can on base like Frank, he's a valuable player.

He is GOOD still, but when he comes up in situations like today (2nd and 3rd in a big situation), I have no confidence in him

Didn't he just hit a go-ahead home run in the seventh inning on Sunday?

I would much rather have Lee or Ordonez up there. Is that good enough?

Not really, sorry.

I don't think you can honestly look yourself in the mirror, knowing baseball or watching the Sox and say that Frank Thomas is even NEAR what he used to be.
Gumshoe

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you've haven't really shown much evidence proving that Frank is nowhere near the player he once was. Sure, he's not as good as he once was. Not many players get better once they reach their mid-30s (well, except for Bonds). Frank's still a pretty dominant player, though.

Gumshoe
09-11-2003, 10:23 PM
Mark, I like stats like OBP and Slugging but you are going a bit overboard with them, I think.

First of all, you AREN'T looking for a walk when Runners are in Scoring position. Also, I said he wasn't what he used to be. I never said he wasn't valuable, I said just that --- he isn't what he used to be. He strikes out now MUCH more than he ever did. Or at least, he Ks more than he walks.

Clearly, Walt Hriniak has got him in line along with G. Walker. Great. Yes, he will naturally decline as he gets older. You can blame it all on injury or whatever you want to do. The fact is, the last 3 years he has been good for about the last 3 months. Great. Will we get anything out of that? I hope.

The fact still remains that he doesn't hit to the opposite field, he walks more than he strikes out, and he doesn't get HITS when RISP like one would expect for being such a "great hitter".

These are my opinions based on watching him every day and checking his stats.

Gumshoe

Gumshoe
09-11-2003, 10:24 PM
I forgot, stat wizards ... this "same" Big Frank hits .60 points below his career average. Hmmm... somewhat troubling to your argument.

Gumshoe

voodoochile
09-11-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I forgot, stat wizards ... this "same" Big Frank hits .60 points below his career average. Hmmm... somewhat troubling to your argument.

Gumshoe

No, it isn't because I'm not arguing that Frank is the same player he was before. I am arguing that he is as good or better than the two players you mention and the overall stats bear that out and in fact favor Frank.

It isn't all about stats, you are correct and I agree you can gain a lot of insight from watching a player play everyday.

You want to talk about the last 3 months, in actuallity, it is 4. That was when he went back to the open stance (or something similar) that made him such a force in 2000 (the last season prior to this one that he was 100% healthy from the beginning of the season). You keep arguing about 2002 and 2001 and it proves that you either don't know as much as you claim to know about baseball or that you would rather be right about Frank being bad, so you will ignore the career threatening injury he had in 2001 and the 2 year recovery time it takes to get back fully whole just to make your point.

Show me where I said that Frank was as good as he was when he was 27. It isn't about that, but anyone who cannot see that Frank is a driving force on this team both at the plate and in the clubhouse isn't paying attention or is so anti-Frank that they refuse to accept the obvious. Which is it with you?

Dadawg_77
09-11-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I forgot, stat wizards ... this "same" Big Frank hits .60 points below his career average. Hmmm... somewhat troubling to your argument.

Gumshoe

No it isn't, you post show a lack knowledge on the game. Baseball is a game of centimeters, if the bat was higher by a few tenth of inch on a pop, it is a line drive. That is why average is fickle stat, it comes and it goes. The ability to take balls and wait for a pitch you can handle isn't, that is why OBP is much better indicator of a player's performance then average. Slugging shows how many bases a player gets per at bat, thus you love high SLG with RISP since a runner has a better shot at scoring on double then a single and 100% chance of scoring on a triple or HR.

FarWestChicago
09-11-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Slugging shows how many bases a player gets per at bat, thus you love high SLG with RISP since a runner has a better shot at scoring on double then a single and 100% chance of scoring on a triple or HR. And this is REALLY important if Paulie is on one of the bases. :smile:

Gumshoe
09-12-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
No it isn't, you post show a lack knowledge on the game. Baseball is a game of centimeters, if the bat was higher by a few tenth of inch on a pop, it is a line drive. That is why average is fickle stat, it comes and it goes. The ability to take balls and wait for a pitch you can handle isn't, that is why OBP is much better indicator of a player's performance then average. Slugging shows how many bases a player gets per at bat, thus you love high SLG with RISP since a runner has a better shot at scoring on double then a single and 100% chance of scoring on a triple or HR.

Dawg, I understand baseball as well as anyone here. My opinion is that I don't really care if Frank Thomas is around. If it means us saving 8 MIL and getting another good pitcher or player, I am in favor of that. Frank has done tremendous things, but he has CAUSED a lot of problems, too. That is the truth of the situation.

I don't understand your 10 cm thing (if you get a hit, you did well, if you didn't then you didn't. That's why it is called average). Average is a very important stat. OBP might be slightly more important, but average in the new mind of statisticians (the Neyers, Beanes, and James) has become totally **** upon. I love OBP and SLG, don't get me wrong. BUt there is something to be said about avg. too, because there are times when a WALK doesn't do anything for you. Period.

Gumshoe

ps- voodoo, you were claiming he was the same guy as before, more or less. I am looking to the future. I think it'd be a great idea to trade him or let him go -- provided we can keep a pitcher or get another great player.

MarkEdward
09-12-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


No it isn't, you post show a lack knowledge on the game. Baseball is a game of centimeters, if the bat was higher by a few tenth of inch on a pop, it is a line drive. That is why average is fickle stat, it comes and it goes. The ability to take balls and wait for a pitch you can handle isn't, that is why OBP is much better indicator of a player's performance then average. Slugging shows how many bases a player gets per at bat, thus you love high SLG with RISP since a runner has a better shot at scoring on double then a single and 100% chance of scoring on a triple or HR.

Let me just say that DaDawg summed up my rebuttal pretty nicely. Thank you.


Originally posted by Gumshoe
[B]

Frank has done tremendous things, but he has CAUSED a lot of problems, too. That is the truth of the situation.

Problems such as...?

BUt there is something to be said about avg. too, because there are times when a WALK doesn't do anything for you. Period.


And there are times when a hit doesn't do anything for you. Period. How does that make average a better stat than OBP?

Gumshoe
09-12-2003, 02:50 PM
you're missing the point again. I never said avg. is more important than OBP. I'm saying you're underrating average, like most modern statistical minded guys. I love OBP.

When you hit .60 below what is normal for you, though, I think you are a different hitter. You don't drive in a majority of runs by walking do you? NO. Oh, I suppose the next thing you'll tell me is that RBI don't matter. Ok.

I'll stop the argument right here if you think Frank has never caused problems for the Chicago White Sox. If that's the case, we just don't live in the same reality, or we get different news sources, or we selectively believe what we want. To say that Frank hasn't caused any problems, that he's been an angel in the clubhouse, that he hasn't had strife with teammates is preposterous. But I'll stop right there if you disagree. No problem.

Later,

Gumshoe

freddyvsjason
09-12-2003, 02:57 PM
There is a dup thread on this, but if Thomas plays a BIG role in the SOX winning every series the rest of the way I don't see any one more deserving of it.

MarkEdward
09-12-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
[B]you're missing the point again. I never said avg. is more important than OBP.

No, you haven't. But you keep pointing out Thomas' average to show his 'major' decline. Average will tend to fluctuate as OBP and SLG remain the same (sort of the case for Thomas).

When you hit .60 below what is normal for you, though, I think you are a different hitter.

From 2001 to 2002, Barry Bonds' batting average rose from .328 to .370 (a .042 increase). Meanwhile, his OPS only increased .002 points (1.379 to 1.381). Was Bonds a significantly different hitter in those years? I'd say no.

You don't drive in a majority of runs by walking do you? NO.

No, but you score a lot of runs by getting on base, which is what Thomas does exceedingly well.

Oh, I suppose the next thing you'll tell me is that RBI don't matter. Ok.

No, it doesn't really matter when evaluating a single player's performance. In 2002, Lance Berkman had more RBIs than Barry Bonds. Are you trying to tell me that Berkman was the better player in 2002?

I'll stop the argument right here if you think Frank has never caused problems for the Chicago White Sox.


Sure, Frank can be a bit... grouchy at times. But it's not like his 'bad attitude' has cost us any significant championships.

Anyway, if I were Thomas, I'd be a bit angry too. If I had the ability of Big Frank, I sure as heck wouldn't want to be playing with the likes of Royce Clayton and Todd Ritchie.

RKMeibalane
09-12-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Anyway, if I were Thomas, I'd be a bit angry too. If I had the ability of Big Frank, I sure as heck wouldn't want to be playing with the likes of Royce Clayton and Todd Ritchie.

:KW

"You can thank me for making those deals."

:jerry

"And you can thank me for giving those guys playing time."

:hurt

"Get me out of here!"

Gumshoe
09-12-2003, 07:31 PM
From 2001 to 2002, Barry Bonds' batting average rose from .328 to .370 (a .042 increase). Meanwhile, his OPS only increased .002 points (1.379 to 1.381). Was Bonds a significantly different hitter in those years? I'd say no.

that's .328 and .370, come on MARK, those are great numbers ANYWAY! .260 is NOT a good number, it never has been

No, it doesn't really matter when evaluating a single player's performance. In 2002, Lance Berkman had more RBIs than Barry Bonds. Are you trying to tell me that Berkman was the better player in 2002?

In that stat he was better. But of course this relies on watching Barry too --- which would tell you Barry gets a TON of IBB ... it's not the same thing. We're talking about Frank, not Barry Bonds or anyone else. This point is irrelevant.

Gumshoe

voodoochile
09-12-2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
that's .328 and .370, come on MARK, those are great numbers ANYWAY! .260 is NOT a good number, it never has been

In that stat he was better. But of course this relies on watching Barry too --- which would tell you Barry gets a TON of IBB ... it's not the same thing. We're talking about Frank, not Barry Bonds or anyone else. This point is irrelevant.


Okay, here are some other stats for you...

Frank currently leads the Sox in OBP, OPS, BB, HR and SLG

He is second in RBI

He is third in H, 2B, R and total bases

Now why would any team want to give up on a guy who performs like that?

RKMeibalane
09-12-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, here are some other stats for you...

Frank currently leads the Sox in OBP, OPS, BB, HR and SLG

He is second in RBI

He is third in H, 2B, R and total bases

Now why would any team want to give up on a guy who performs like that?

Well, these are the White Sox.

MarkEdward
09-13-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
that's .328 and .370, come on MARK, those are great numbers ANYWAY! .260 is NOT a good number, it never has been

1. You said when a player hits .060 points lower than what he usually hits, then he's a completely different hitter. Once again, was Bonds a different player between 2001 and 2002?

2. Rickey Henderson is a career .279 hitter. Gary Carter was a career .262 hitter. Carlton Fisk was a career .269 hitter. Mike Schmidt was a career .267 hitter. I could go on. You're trying to tell me these player were never good?

In that stat he was better. But of course this relies on watching Barry too --- which would tell you Barry gets a TON of IBB ... it's not the same thing. We're talking about Frank, not Barry Bonds or anyone else. This point is irrelevant.
Gumshoe

I'm sorry, but the point is not irrelevant. You sarcastically quipped "Oh, I suppose the next thing you'll tell me is that RBI don't matter." I then pointed that Lance Berkman (among others) beat out Barry Bonds in the RBI race in 2002, where Barry clearly had the better year. This showed how irrelevant the RBI stat is.

Back to the original point: Voodoo and I have pointed the many categories that Thomas leads the Sox. You base your argument on the fact that Lee has more RBIs, making him the better player. Above, I showed you why I think the RBI stat is pointless. Unless you can show me how RBIs make one player better than the other, I'll have to say that Thomas (and even Ordonez) have been better than Lee.

And I do try to watch a lot of Bonds. The Giants are my favorite NL team (along with the Pirates).

Paulwny
09-13-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
The Giants are my favorite NL team (along with the Pirates).

Wow, I thought my son was the only Pirate fan outside of Pit. :smile:

FarWestChicago
09-13-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
And I do try to watch a lot of Bonds. The Giants are my favorite NL team (along with the Pirates). I like them more with Felipe as their manager. But they are pretty much the Flubs of this area. I can't stand the media love affair. I would be an A's fan if they weren't in the AL, the scumbags. :smile:

MarkEdward
09-13-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny

Wow, I thought my son was the only Pirate fan outside of Pit. :smile:

Well, the Bucs are my OOTP team and Brian Giles is one my favorite players (oops, guess that makes me a Padres' fan now). I don't really know why I like the Pirates though.

Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I like them more with Felipe as their manager. But they are pretty much the Flubs of this area. I can't stand the media love affair. I would be an A's fan if they weren't in the AL, the scumbags. :smile:

One of my earliest baseball memories was staying up waaaaaay past my bedtime to watch the Giants and Dodgers battle it out in Candlestick on ESPN. I was a big fan of Barry Bonds at that time (and still am). We were both left-handed, both left fielders, although he had me on the power, speed, defense, ability to hit, and just about everything else. Those mid-90s Giants were a good group of guys. Matt Williams, Mark Carreon, Steve Scarsone, Kirt Manwaring, J.R. Phillips, William Van Landingham... ah, memories...

Signing Ray Durham (one of my Sox favs) this past off-season was just icing on the cake.