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Tragg
09-09-2003, 11:39 PM
If you MUST pitch Mr P and give him work, please do so in NON-CLUTCH situations. Any way you slice it, the 9th inning in September against the team you lead by ONE bloody game is a clutch situation. To put him in this situation puts way too much pressure on a player for his first appearance for the team. Mr P will NOT be pitching 9th innings in the playoffs, so what is the gain?

On the other hand, Sullivan, Wunsch, Schoenweiss might have to close a game for us - futher, they have been on this club for a while (certainly longer than Mr P) - you might give one of these fellows the honor of the 9th. It might provide experience that might be needed plus enhance clubhouse harmony.

And, of course, you were forced to use a dead-tired Gordon - dead tired, of course, because of your abject misuse of him.

Lip Man 1
09-09-2003, 11:41 PM
There is a lot of truth in that post.

Lip

ode to veeck
09-09-2003, 11:43 PM
hard to 2nd guess here, but

JM starting panic attack in the 9th wasn't too bad but leaving him in after the first batter or two instead of bringing Schowenweis or Kelly looks pretty bad when we do need Flash rested for Wed, Thur

FanOf14
09-09-2003, 11:44 PM
While I initially had no problem with Mr P being in there, I did have a problem with the size of a leash that Manuel had him on; he had no business leaving him in there after the second batter. P should have been on a choke collar rather than a long leash.

inta
09-09-2003, 11:45 PM
this is completely a hindsight 2020 thing.

i aint mad at manuel at all on this one.

kermittheefrog
09-09-2003, 11:46 PM
We were up by six runs. Thats not clutch. We won the game. No big deal.

Kilroy
09-09-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
And, of course, you were forced to use a dead-tired Gordon - dead tired, of course, because of your abject misuse of him.

Gordon threw 24 pitches in 3 appearances over the weekend, and was off yesterday. He's not dead tired.

gosox41
09-09-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
While I initially had no problem with Mr P being in there, I did have a problem with the size of a leash that Manuel had him on; he had no business leaving him in there after the second batter. P should have been on a choke collar rather than a long leash.

I think JM wanted to give him a fair shot. There are 2 problems with that:
1. The Sox are in the middle of a pennant race and no time to be trying out pitching and
2. Jose Panoagua should never have been signed in the first place.

Bob

FanOf14
09-09-2003, 11:47 PM
You don't need hindsight to know that you have a pitcher that couldn't make it with the Tigers on a choke collar rather than a long leash. That is the only problem I had with this. Had Manuel yanked him after the second batter, you would hear no complaints from me about this.

GoSox2K3
09-10-2003, 12:09 AM
I can't believe Manual left him in long enough to let the tying run reach the on-deck circle. I appreciate his desire to rest our other relievers, but (once again) this make you wonder if Manual really understood what was on the line in this game. He should have pulled Paniagua after 2 batters. Blowing this game to the Twins would have been potenitally devastating. Not only would we be tied instead of 2 games up, but the Twins would have been totally pumped after a stunning comeback. I just can't believe that Manual let the Sox teeter that close to the edge.

That being said - WE WON! WHEW!!! Now let's go for 3 in a row tomorrow! If we win tomorrow, we will have clinched this series and Manual can switch Loazia to Friday and let Paniagua start on Thursday! :D:

Bucktown
09-10-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
We were up by six runs. Thats not clutch. We won the game. No big deal.
It is unanumous up here in Appleton. There is NOTHING clutch about pitching with a 6-run lead. That is precisely the time to put him out there, if ever.

And we did win. But some Sox fans like to complain about the wins too.

Jerko
09-10-2003, 12:30 AM
I am reading these posts and listening to people talk about JM "saving the bullpen". Let's see, it was 8-2 in the 7th inning, and we used, Buehrle, Sullivan, Paniagua, Gordon, Schoeneweis. SO, in JM's effort to save the bullpen, we used FIVE pitchers! Then, we had the closer in for God knows how many pitches. How many closers get used when their team has a 6 run lead going into the 9th inning? NONE! I am as happy as a pig in slop that we have a 2 game lead, but with JM in charge, I better warm up my pitching arm cause I might be called upon to pitch a few innings in game 1 of the playoffs. What a stroke.

Jerko
09-10-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Bucktown
It is unanumous up here in Appleton. There is NOTHING clutch about pitching with a 6-run lead. That is precisely the time to put him out there, if ever.

And we did win. But some Sox fans like to complain about the wins too.

EVERY pitch of EVERY game for the REST OF THE YEAR is CLUTCH! The Sox play Minnesota, Boston, Minnesota, KC, Yankees, and KC. Minnesota plays Detroit, St. Lucy, St. Mary, Cleveland, and Mt. Fiore. Jose Paniagua has NO business on a major league mound for the rest of his LIFE, let alone in a pennant race! I hate to say this, but if you have to "Experiment". USE KOCH!!!!

kittle42
09-10-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
I am reading these posts and listening to people talk about JM "saving the bullpen". Let's see, it was 8-2 in the 7th inning, and we used, Buehrle, Sullivan, Paniagua, Gordon, Schoeneweis. SO, in JM's effort to save the bullpen, we used FIVE pitchers! Then, we had the closer in for God knows how many pitches. How many closers get used when their team has a 6 run lead going into the 9th inning? NONE! I am as happy as a pig in slop that we have a 2 game lead, but with JM in charge, I better warm up my pitching arm cause I might be called upon to pitch a few innings in game 1 of the playoffs. What a stroke.

Anyone who had a problem with Paniagua coming in is stupid.

If he had put in Gordon or Marte with a 6-run lead, you would be screaming.

He put in Paniagua (and yes, you idiot misspellers, it is P-A-N-I-A-G-U-A) at the right time and took him out just in time.

I hate JM, but please, can you friggin people ever, ever enjoy anything?!

Jerko
09-10-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by kittle42
Anyone who had a problem with Paniagua coming in is stupid.

If he had put in Gordon or Marte with a 6-run lead, you would be screaming.

He put in Paniagua (and yes, you idiot misspellers, it is P-A-N-I-A-G-U-A) at the right time and took him out just in time.

I hate JM, but please, can you friggin people ever, ever enjoy anything?!

First off, I said I was happy that we won, so I guess I enjoyed something. Now, did I SAY put Gordon or Marte in? HE put Gordon in anyway! How about leaving the guy in who got the last out of the 8th inning with a 6 run lead instead of a guy who has not pitched this season? This is a pennant race! There is no room left for tinkering. We did not need P-A-N-I-A-G-U-A for the first 133 games, why do we need him now! All I know is in an effort to save the bullpen we used 5 pitchers, including the closer, in a game where we had a 6 run lead after 8 innings. If you can't see that bringing in P-A-N-I-A-G-U-A was stupid, you should not call other people stupid.

jabrch
09-10-2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
I hate to say this, but if you have to "Experiment". USE KOCH!!!!


I totally wanted to see Koch in there then. Paniagua won't be with us in the playoffs. We know that. Koch might. I would rather have seen him in there than Paniagua.

I was at the game and was mortified watching that 9th inning. My heart almost stopped. Everyone in my section was chanting "We Want Steve" - the guy who threw out the first pitch - who was sitting behind us.

By the way, for anyone worried about getting ticks, we paid 1/2 of face and got row 14 just behind the plate in the 100 level.

Hey Kids, come on out to Comiskey. The party is just starting!!!! It ends in late October in GRANT PARK

Soxboyrob
09-10-2003, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by kittle42
Anyone who had a problem with Paniagua coming in is stupid.

If he had put in Gordon or Marte with a 6-run lead, you would be screaming.

He put in Paniagua (and yes, you idiot misspellers, it is P-A-N-I-A-G-U-A) at the right time and took him out just in time.

I hate JM, but please, can you friggin people ever, ever enjoy anything?!

How about putting in the seldom-used Wunsch, who happens to need some work?
Leaving Shoenweiss in there?
Leaving Sully in there?
Basically leave the guys in there that might be on any potential playoff roster.
It's easy to sit here and say it wasn't a clutch situation because of our 6 run lead, but we were a gapper away from a tie game because of Jerry's "experimentation." This Twins team is scrappy and they're not going to take kindly to facing the Sox mop-up pile of crap scrub pitcher from some single A team from a remote island somewhere who's going to supposedly shut them down in the ninth inning. Of course they're gonna come out scratching and clawing and fighting. If you must pitch this stiff in the ninth, please take him out when it's blatantly obvious he has NOTHING at all, which was after the first or second hitter. If Jones homers off of Flash in the ninth inning, we're back tied for first.

Lastly, there's something to be said for "momentum." The Twins left tonight with a little bit of it, despite their loss.

Jerko
09-10-2003, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
How about putting in the seldom-used Wunsch, who happens to need some work?
Leaving Shoenweiss in there?
Leaving Sully in there?
Basically leave the guys in there that might be on any potential playoff roster.
It's easy to sit here and say it wasn't a clutch situation because of our 6 run lead, but we were a gapper away from a tie game because of Jerry's "experimentation." This Twins team is scrappy and they're not going to take kindly to facing the Sox mop-up pile of crap scrub pitcher from some single A team from a remote island somewhere who's going to supposedly shut them down in the ninth inning. Of course they're gonna come out scratching and clawing and fighting. If you must pitch this stiff in the ninth, please take him out when it's blatantly obvious he has NOTHING at all, which was after the first or second hitter. If Jones homers off of Flash in the ninth inning, we're back tied for first.

Lastly, there's something to be said for "momentum." The Twins left tonight with a little bit of it, despite their loss.



PERFECT POST there Soxboyrob. Why give them any hope? BURY them 8-2 like it should have been instead of letting them see how scared we were. Also, if the guy is not going to be on the PLAYOFF ROSTER, why do we have to see "what he has". Anybody who was at the game and was happy to see Pani coming in is and will forever be a liar.

A.T. Money
09-10-2003, 01:04 AM
I wanted to see Koch in there. With a 6 run lead, you have to get Koch an inning. Let him get his feet wet again. I was surprised to see Paniagua in there. I didn't realize he has such a dead arm. He used to throw bullets when we was with Seattle in 2000. He failed to hit 90 once on the gun.

Bucktown
09-10-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
First off, I said I was happy that we won, so I guess I enjoyed something. Now, did I SAY put Gordon or Marte in? HE put Gordon in anyway! How about leaving the guy in who got the last out of the 8th inning with a 6 run lead instead of a guy who has not pitched this season? This is a pennant race! There is no room left for tinkering. We did not need P-A-N-I-A-G-U-A for the first 133 games, why do we need him now! All I know is in an effort to save the bullpen we used 5 pitchers, including the closer, in a game where we had a 6 run lead after 8 innings. If you can't see that bringing in P-A-N-I-A-G-U-A was stupid, you should not call other people stupid.
It sounds like your beef is with Kenny Williams. KW went and got this guy. Was JM supposed to leave him out in the pen and NEVER pitch him? Do you thnk that is what KW had in mind when he got him?

captain54
09-10-2003, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
PERFECT POST there Soxboyrob. Why give them any hope? BURY them 8-2 like it should have been instead of letting them see how scared we were.

Great point....

this team is winning despite Manuel, I'm convinced....no Killer Instinct, no sense of going for the jugular....just like he let the Yankees off the hook when we had a chance to sweep....

The Twins have the momentum going into game three.....we only have 18 or so games left...DO NOT give the other team any breathing room whatsoever....

voodoochile
09-10-2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Gordon threw 24 pitches in 3 appearances over the weekend, and was off yesterday. He's not dead tired.

I agree - for a guy who was "dead tired", he hit 100 MPH on the TV gun...

I wish JM would plan a bit ahead in these type of situatiuons. No reason that Gordon and Marte can't be doing soft toss in the pen when the inning starts and then start to warm up for real when the first guy reaches base. By the time there are two on, they are almost ready and the inning isn't a big deal, but in the end that is pretty minor. I hope JM learns from it, but Paniagua isn't going to be on the playoff team and I doubt he gets too much more work these final 2.5 weeks, so it is all pretty much moot in the big picture.

I also agree with other posters who said they would have prefered Koch in that situation. He at least might be on the playoff squad (in fact, he probably will be on the playoff squad). I can only guess that he is still not 100%.

Besides, Marte should be able to go 2 innings tomorrow if needed. He hasn't pitched since Sunday...

jeremyb1
09-10-2003, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by Bucktown
It sounds like your beef is with Kenny Williams. KW went and got this guy. Was JM supposed to leave him out in the pen and NEVER pitch him? Do you thnk that is what KW had in mind when he got him?

I completely agree here. What's the point of signing Paniagua if he's not on the playoff roster? As far as I can tell he hasn't done much at all to indicate he could be a force. 6 or 7 Guys in the pen is enough, there's no reason to be concerned about adding someone like Paniagua to help us as an additional player down the stretch. Manuel shouldn't have put him in but KW shouldn't have given him the opportunity in the first place.

voodoochile
09-10-2003, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I completely agree here. What's the point of signing Paniagua if he's not on the playoff roster? As far as I can tell he hasn't done much at all to indicate he could be a force. 6 or 7 Guys in the pen is enough, there's no reason to be concerned about adding someone like Paniagua to help us as an additional player down the stretch. Manuel shouldn't have put him in but KW shouldn't have given him the opportunity in the first place.

He didn't join the team until after the first. Can he be on the playoff roster? Is that because of the injury exceptions?

Jerko
09-10-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Bucktown
It sounds like your beef is with Kenny Williams. KW went and got this guy. Was JM supposed to leave him out in the pen and NEVER pitch him? Do you thnk that is what KW had in mind when he got him?

He's done it with Koch! He did it with Foulke, Glover, and Wunsch. Why the hell is Paniagua special?

chosk8
09-10-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
I am reading these posts and listening to people talk about JM "saving the bullpen". Let's see, it was 8-2 in the 7th inning, and we used, Buehrle, Sullivan, Paniagua, Gordon, Schoeneweis. SO, in JM's effort to save the bullpen, we used FIVE pitchers! Then, we had the closer in for God knows how many pitches. How many closers get used when their team has a 6 run lead going into the 9th inning? NONE! I am as happy as a pig in slop that we have a 2 game lead, but with JM in charge, I better warm up my pitching arm cause I might be called upon to pitch a few innings in game 1 of the playoffs. What a stroke.


Just sayin', but Oakland with a 8-0 lead over the Angels brought in Foulke in the 9th last night.
I had no problem with Paniagua coming in last night. My only complaint would have been to get him out after the second hit, but that's it. Personally, if JM was gonna use somebody, I agree with you, use Koch. It gave us a scare, but we won the game, I'm happy. Kinda nice too, to get the Twins hope up a little, then slam the door shut.

Jurr
09-10-2003, 10:16 AM
No kidding. But, if Paniagua had a 1-2-3 inning, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And, Wunsch or Koch could have been shelled. It just goes to say that, as a manager there's only so much you can do...it's up to your players after that.

npdempse
09-10-2003, 12:49 PM
When JM finally called to the pen to get rid of Paniagua, there was a trainer/coach/? down there who got up in Kusnyer's face, yelling at him, apparently about using Gordon and not Marte--He was seriously pissed off, and seemed to be telling Marte that he should be the guy going out there while Gordon was going to the mound. He kind of looks like a thinner version of Don Cooper. Who is this guy?

jabrch
09-10-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Bucktown
It sounds like your beef is with Kenny Williams. KW went and got this guy. Was JM supposed to leave him out in the pen and NEVER pitch him?

If I watched him pitch in the pen and in warmups and saw him throw like he did yesterday night, then yes...JM is supposed to leave him out in the pen and NEVER pitch him.