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gosox41
09-09-2003, 10:37 PM
Now that I'm temproaritly off my anti-Billt Koch soap box (until JM is doumb enough to bring him in again) I'll continue my anti-Paniagua rant.

Back when he was signed, I gave the opinion that I didn't like the move. Fast forward to tongiht. JM obviously wants to see for himself what Paniagua has left (which is nothing) so he decides to pitch him with a 6 run lead against the divison rivals. One would think this would be a safe scenario, but the Twins don't quit and Paniagua isn't what he was. So Paniagua immediately gets in trouble and now JM is forced to bring in Gordon. He gets the save and the Sox have a 2 game lead, so all is good, right?

Not exactly. What was wrong with leaving Schoeneweis in the game? I have more faith in him getting 3 outs then Jose P. This is a pennant race, not a time to have try outs to see if a guy can pitch. Because of the bad sign by KW, Gordon was used for the 4th time in 5 nights. On the night he wasn't used, he was warming up in the bullpen so he wasn't exactly rested. This provides extra strain on a guy wiht a history of arm trouble. It also makes him unavailable for tomorrow and likely Thursday. What if those games are close? Are we going to see Koch and Jose P. pitch?

Tongiht was a perfect night to rest Gordon. Instead, due in part to bad managing, and bad general managing by KW, the Sox are forced to abuse Gordon when he clearly should have had the night off.

Does anyone else have a problem with this? Are the Sox going to bring back Koosman next to see what he can do as they may need yet another left handed specialist?? It's ridiculous how this team consistently makes things harder then they should be.

Bob

Unregistered
09-09-2003, 10:42 PM
:threadsucks
Already.

Is this seriously what we have to look forward to until tomorrow's game?!?

Paniagua sucks. Plain and simple. JM took a chance with a 6 run lead and it didn't work. Can't we be happy about a 2 game lead and taking the first 2 games of a dire 4 game series?? :?: :?:

Daver
09-09-2003, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by gosox41


Tongiht was a perfect night to rest Gordon. Instead, due in part to bad managing, and bad general managing by KW, the Sox are forced to abuse Gordon when he clearly should have had the night off.


I fail to see how any of this is KW's fault,unless you are implying that he made the decision for JM to leave Jose in.

Jose was signed to a minor league deal and brought up in the roster expansion,the GM has no plans of having this guy around for any period of time beyond the end of the regular season,he does not control how the manager uses him.

Lip Man 1
09-09-2003, 10:45 PM
Bob:

I not agreeing or disagreeing with you but isn't it odd how practically EVERY relief guy the Sox signed has had trouble this year when they were very effective with other teams?

Look at the list...Koch, White, Gordon (earlier this season), Sullivan, Schoenweis.

I am firmy convinced that White was dead on when he talked about rolls and usage. Hawk has been beside himself this year over the same things and has said so when he has appeared on Chicago radio stations.

These guys including Paniagua aren't ALL bad, something else is going on.

Lip

gosox41
09-09-2003, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Bob:

I not agreeing or disagreeing with you but isn't it odd how practically EVERY relief guy the Sox signed has had trouble this year when they were very effective with other teams?

Look at the list...Koch, White, Gordon (earlier this season), Sullivan, Schoenweis.

I am firmy convinced that White was dead on when he talked about rolls and usage. Hawk has been beside himself this year over the same things and has said so when he has appeared on Chicago radio stations.

These guys including Paniagua aren't ALL bad, something else is going on.

Lip

You bring up a good point, I never thought about it like that. I wonder why it is like this. I would think that if a reliever were used on a regular basis (something JM doesn't do with Wunsch, Schoeneweis, and Sullivan) they should be able to pitch at any time in any inning.

Lack of use could be part of the problem. I'm just speculating, but I wonder why most of relievers the Sox have brought in this year have struggled, especially when they first got here.

Bob

gosox41
09-09-2003, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I fail to see how any of this is KW's fault,unless you are implying that he made the decision for JM to leave Jose in.

Jose was signed to a minor league deal and brought up in the roster expansion,the GM has no plans of having this guy around for any period of time beyond the end of the regular season,he does not control how the manager uses him.

I blame KW because it was ultimately KW's decision to sign him. He probably had some say in bringing him up to the big club (I don't know if he promised it to Jose or just wanted to press his luck after the Loiaza signing.)

IMHO, Paniaqua shouldn't have been signed to any sort of contract to begin with, especially if he was so short term. I can see signing an injured veteran to a minor league contract to see if he can come back to form, but that doesn't mean I'd promote him after 2-3 weeks in the minors and throw him in a game in the heat of a pennant race. It means it would be more of a long term move, like the Yankees did with John Lieber.

IMHO, the Sox have other options in the minors that could are better then Paniagua. Ginter and Rauch come immediately to mind But this is no time to see if a veteran pitcher coming off arm problems and 2 bad seasons still has the ability to pitch in the major league level just so we can try to use him for 20 games plus hopefully the playoffs.


Bob

TornLabrum
09-09-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Bob:

I not agreeing or disagreeing with you but isn't it odd how practically EVERY relief guy the Sox signed has had trouble this year when they were very effective with other teams?

Look at the list...Koch, White, Gordon (earlier this season), Sullivan, Schoenweis.

I am firmy convinced that White was dead on when he talked about rolls and usage. Hawk has been beside himself this year over the same things and has said so when he has appeared on Chicago radio stations.

These guys including Paniagua aren't ALL bad, something else is going on.

Lip

This was probably brought up already, but I wasn't around my computer yesterday. Mac, Jurko, and Harry interviewed Hawk yesterday and Harry asked him about using Gordon to close Sunday's game.

Hawk's response was, "Don't even ask me about that."

When pressed further, he made it perfectly clear that there was nothing he could say (i.e. was being allowed to say) about Gen. Disarray's handling of the pen.

chosk8
09-09-2003, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Bob:

I not agreeing or disagreeing with you but isn't it odd how practically EVERY relief guy the Sox signed has had trouble this year when they were very effective with other teams?

Look at the list...Koch, White, Gordon (earlier this season), Sullivan, Schoenweis.

I am firmy convinced that White was dead on when he talked about rolls and usage. Hawk has been beside himself this year over the same things and has said so when he has appeared on Chicago radio stations.

These guys including Paniagua aren't ALL bad, something else is going on.

Lip

While I agree with the Sox and JM basically ruining certain pitchers, namely closers, I disagree with the comment about White. IMO, roles in the bullpen, uther than the closer role are overrated. My feelings......when I bring you in the game, your 'role' is to get the guy at-bat out, end of story. Nothing more, nothing less. That's your 'role'.
That being said, I think JM finds guys he is confident with and has a tendency to underwork others. However, when these guys are getting in the game, they are not making the most of the opportunities, thus, kinda forcing JM to stick with certain guys.

SoxOnTop
09-10-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Bob:

I not agreeing or disagreeing with you but isn't it odd how practically EVERY relief guy the Sox signed has had trouble this year when they were very effective with other teams?

Look at the list...Koch, White, Gordon (earlier this season), Sullivan, Schoenweis.

I am firmy convinced that White was dead on when he talked about rolls and usage. Hawk has been beside himself this year over the same things and has said so when he has appeared on Chicago radio stations.

These guys including Paniagua aren't ALL bad, something else is going on.

Lip

Inculding Paniagua???????? Are you for real???

The guy's been out of the majors for 2 years!!!!! If he isn't ALL bad, then why didn't anyone else take a chance on him all year long? And Gordon has been an effective reliever all year, is pitching better than his career ERA and equal to the last 2 years. Stop throwing names on the pile to make your arguments sound like they have merrit. Furthermore, White stunk last year except for 20 innings at the end when he was hot. A pitching deficient team like the Cards got rid of him for a reason. They new they got lucky and dumped him before he went cold.

Yes, Manual is an idiot and hasn't used a pen properly since 2000, but at least make a solid case to back it up. Mention Glover who is now pitching well with an established role in Anaheim. Panagua would make even Torre look like an idiot.

Please.

A.T. Money
09-10-2003, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


I am firmy convinced that White was dead on when he talked about rolls and usage. Hawk has been beside himself this year over the same things and has said so when he has appeared on Chicago radio stations.



Rolls and usage? Rick White was being a fool.

How's this for a roll?

GET PEOPLE OUT!

thepaulbowski
09-10-2003, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I am firmy convinced that White was dead on when he talked about rolls and usage.

The only roll White could get right is his dinner roll. When called upon, get people out & shut up.

Hokiesox
09-10-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Inculding Paniagua???????? Are you for real???

The guy's been out of the majors for 2 years!!!!! If he isn't ALL bad, then why didn't anyone else take a chance on him all year long? And Gordon has been an effective reliever all year, is pitching better than his career ERA and equal to the last 2 years. Stop throwing names on the pile to make your arguments sound like they have merrit. Furthermore, White stunk last year except for 20 innings at the end when he was hot. A pitching deficient team like the Cards got rid of him for a reason. They new they got lucky and dumped him before he went cold.

Yes, Manual is an idiot and hasn't used a pen properly since 2000, but at least make a solid case to back it up. Mention Glover who is now pitching well with an established role in Anaheim. Panagua would make even Torre look like an idiot.

Please.

Gordon was horrible for the first 2 months of the season. He blew leads almost as quickly as koch. Good thing he's turned it around though.

hold2dibber
09-10-2003, 08:21 AM
I was pissed when JM brought Paniaqua in the game. If the Sox were up 12-2 in the 9th against the Tigers, I could see bringing him in. Or if they were down 12-2. But a 6 run lead, while big, isn't insurmountable, particularly when you're playing a team like the Twins. Plus, why not throw Wunsch or Koch for an inning if you really want to get someone some work. Those guys haven't pitched very much at all lately, but at least they've retired some major league hitters in the last 2 years.

LASOXFAN
09-10-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Bob:

I not agreeing or disagreeing with you but isn't it odd how practically EVERY relief guy the Sox signed has had trouble this year when they were very effective with other teams?

Look at the list...Koch, White, Gordon (earlier this season), Sullivan, Schoenweis.

I am firmy convinced that White was dead on when he talked about rolls and usage. Hawk has been beside himself this year over the same things and has said so when he has appeared on Chicago radio stations.

These guys including Paniagua aren't ALL bad, something else is going on.

Lip

Using Hawk Harrelson and Rick White to support your point is a little like quoting Hitler to support your foreign policy.

This thread does suck. And Lip will no doubt be searching for negatives while the Sox are taking a champaigne shower in October.

Gumshoe
09-10-2003, 10:37 AM
You guys are all over-reacting. If you haven't noticed, we have had problems ALL YEAR with right handed relief. Why not give Jose a shot? We won, who cares. I personally wanted to see Koch come in and give up a solo HR or two just to finally stick him in AAA and not even tempt the minds of the powers that be in our park.

Paniagua got tossed at the end of the game. Like Lohse and Colon he was getting squeezed and he was frustrated because they got a big chicken-scratch hit off of him (like Jones did Gordon, btw). When it comes down to playoffs, though, I hope it's these guys, strictly:

Sullivan
Gordon
Wunsch
Marte

2 lefties, 2 righties, forget everyone else.

I'm not convinced about Schoenweis. He is a heart attack man, too.

Gumshoe

sox win again!