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dougs78
09-08-2003, 10:49 PM
Tonights game is precisely why we got Bart. Come out firing in a huge game situation. Nice job Sox.

Lets see, is Bart worth Leifer, Biddle and Osuna??


I'd say so!


WoooHooo! :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

delben91
09-08-2003, 10:53 PM
Who loves Bart?

That's a big, big, "I DO!" from Delben!

GO SOX!!!

WhiteSox = Life
09-08-2003, 10:56 PM
:hawk
"I love Colon."

:DJ
"You do?"

:hawk
"Mmm-hmm!"

Tragg
09-08-2003, 11:07 PM
He's one tough mutha - he's great.
Just wish we could sign him.

Clarkdog
09-08-2003, 11:08 PM
Amen.

That was a gutty perfromance tonight, and it makes a statement for the remainder of the series.

The Twins kept attacking Colon, but he was not going to let them break through. The CG was statement - he was not going to let the Twins beat him, period. That is intimidating when it is over - because now you know he has an extra gear that you don't.

Granted Jones, Guzman, and Hocking hit balls that Colon caught the breaks on but they were cheating on his fastball - I'm surprised he didn't throw a few more off speed pitches- nonetheless, Colon got out of the jams he put himself in.

Awesome job. This is exactly why we signed him.

cheeses_h_rice
09-08-2003, 11:09 PM
A side-benefit to Bart pitching all 9 innings is that we gave our bullpen some much-needed rest.

Locked & loaded, baby!

duke of dorwood
09-08-2003, 11:10 PM
He's the man-look at his innings already this year. GAWD I hope we sign him and keep him from NY

Lip Man 1
09-08-2003, 11:18 PM
THIS is why top pitchers get 8, 10, 12 million a season.

Why the Sox refuse to sign these type of guys is totally beyond me. Pitching wins pennants.

They haven't signed a stud pitcher off the free agent market since Floyd Bannister in December 82 I believe. Five years 4.5 million and Floyd gave the Sox five pretty good years with some pretty crappy teams.

Lip

cheeses_h_rice
09-08-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
THIS is why top pitchers get 8, 10, 12 million a season.

Why the Sox refuse to sign these type of guys is totally beyond me. Pitching wins pennants.

They haven't signed a stud pitcher off the free agent market since Floyd Bannister in December 82 I believe. Five years 4.5 million and Floyd gave the Sox five pretty good years with some pretty crappy teams.

Lip

:jaime

Hel-looooo! Remember me?

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
:jaime
Hel-looooo! Remember me?

:schueler
"He's better than Roger Clemens!"

gosox41
09-08-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
THIS is why top pitchers get 8, 10, 12 million a season.

Why the Sox refuse to sign these type of guys is totally beyond me. Pitching wins pennants.

They haven't signed a stud pitcher off the free agent market since Floyd Bannister in December 82 I believe. Five years 4.5 million and Floyd gave the Sox five pretty good years with some pretty crappy teams.

Lip

The Sox did a study on this back in '97. I don't know all the parameters but pitchers they found that pitchers that reach free agency and sign a 4 or 5 year contract often aren't effective for the life of the contract and spend considerable time on the DL. This study was only done for starting pitchers and was a factor of why the Sox didn't resgin Alvarez and Fernandez.

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
09-08-2003, 11:30 PM
Can you believe we got Colon for these two guys?

:liefer
"I'm not getting enough at-bats!"

:rock
"Am I suppose to speak French or Spanish to the local press?"

cheeses_h_rice
09-08-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Can you believe we got Colon for these two guys?

:liefer
"I'm not getting enough at-bats!"

:rock
"Am I suppose to speak French or Spanish to the local press?"

Gosh how I miss Jeff Leafman...

Clarkdog
09-08-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The Sox did a study on this back in '97. I don't know all the parameters but pitchers they found that pitchers that reach free agency and sign a 4 or 5 year contract often aren't effective for the life of the contract and spend considerable time on the DL. This study was only done for starting pitchers and was a factor of why the Sox didn't resgin Alvarez and Fernandez.

Bob

I heard about that. But the economics of baseball have changed since that study was done. Whoever signs Colon (hopefully the Sox - but that could be wishful thinking), may only give him a three year deal max. Teams today (sans Yankees, Red Sox) can't afford to tie up tons of payroll over many years - because if things don't go well you need flexibility to trade that contract.

dougs78
09-08-2003, 11:45 PM
Actually the Sox were slightly ahead of their time on this starting pitchers as Free Agents thing. I mean, of course I wish we actually signed a few more free agent pitchers, but the track record speaks for itself. For every Randy Johnson, there are like 5 Sterling Hitchcocks. The rest of baseball has finally wisened up and stopped giving out the big, long term deal to starters. Hence Clarkdog's post indicating that most will get 3 years or less from now on.

Of course, just as we realized the time was right to stop giving them money, I hope the Sox management realize that when the price (and contract duration) drops to a low enough level that it will become smart to take calculated risks with starting pitchers again.

I'm just hoping we find a way to hold onto Bart.

RichH55
09-09-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
THIS is why top pitchers get 8, 10, 12 million a season.

Why the Sox refuse to sign these type of guys is totally beyond me. Pitching wins pennants.

They haven't signed a stud pitcher off the free agent market since Floyd Bannister in December 82 I believe. Five years 4.5 million and Floyd gave the Sox five pretty good years with some pretty crappy teams.

Lip

Navarro technically falls into your catergory becuase he made big dough.....Signing a guy doesnt mean he will work out....Also Wells made roughly 10 million...that would could as well, even if it was a trade....but hey why let those facts get in the way of you raining on the parade

voodoochile
09-09-2003, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Gosh how I miss Jeff Leafman...

Was the Leafman/Leifer mess up intentional? If not, it becomes even more effective... Jeff who? :D:

RichH55
09-09-2003, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
I heard about that. But the economics of baseball have changed since that study was done. Whoever signs Colon (hopefully the Sox - but that could be wishful thinking), may only give him a three year deal max. Teams today (sans Yankees, Red Sox) can't afford to tie up tons of payroll over many years - because if things don't go well you need flexibility to trade that contract.

Those economics have always been true, especially for this team.

And it wouldn't matter how long you signed the guy for if he was going to play up to his contract, and the suggested study seems to show that the 4th year and definately the 5th year you were not getting any bang for your buck.

If you knew the guy was going to pitch lights out for the end of the contract, it would be a no-brainer. I think the proof that JR was right about contracts with pitchers(Not Navarro over Clemens) is decently evident. Off the top of my head I'd say there is at least 3 or 4 Alex Fernandezs for every pitcher(Pedro?) who lives up to the contract

RichH55
09-09-2003, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
Actually the Sox were slightly ahead of their time on this starting pitchers as Free Agents thing. I mean, of course I wish we actually signed a few more free agent pitchers, but the track record speaks for itself. For every Randy Johnson, there are like 5 Sterling Hitchcocks. The rest of baseball has finally wisened up and stopped giving out the big, long term deal to starters. Hence Clarkdog's post indicating that most will get 3 years or less from now on.

Of course, just as we realized the time was right to stop giving them money, I hope the Sox management realize that when the price (and contract duration) drops to a low enough level that it will become smart to take calculated risks with starting pitchers again.

I'm just hoping we find a way to hold onto Bart.

Going with a different analogy than me :cool: Im still sticking with my Alex Fernandez rule

RichH55
09-09-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
I heard about that. But the economics of baseball have changed since that study was done. Whoever signs Colon (hopefully the Sox - but that could be wishful thinking), may only give him a three year deal max. Teams today (sans Yankees, Red Sox) can't afford to tie up tons of payroll over many years - because if things don't go well you need flexibility to trade that contract.

Also, this is off-base because most of the reports out there say that Colon will probably be the number one priority for the Yankees this offseason, and just them being involved will shoot Bartolo's price tag up, and change the underlying assumptions your logic is based upon

34 Inch Stick
09-09-2003, 10:24 AM
With Clemens gone, at the very least the Yankees have a $10 million spot open in their rotation. I wouldn't be shocked if Wells was finished after this year as well. I imagine they would give Jeff Weaver away for nothing if a team took his contract. That is immediately more money available than JR will be willing to pay.

On JR's side he is only 13-12 with an ERA slightly under 4. He has only won 20 once in his career and he is over 30. I still would love to have him back and I'm sure he'll win 20 with the Yanks.

Clarkdog
09-09-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Also, this is off-base because most of the reports out there say that Colon will probably be the number one priority for the Yankees this offseason, and just them being involved will shoot Bartolo's price tag up, and change the underlying assumptions your logic is based upon

My point got lost while typing in the euphoria of last night's win. I agree the Sox were ahead of their time. I don't believe they were ever going to sign a long term pitching deal after that study, and it put them ahead of the curve as the game's economics began to change.

To your point Dan, Colon may be the exception to current baseball economics because the Yankees are involved. They will bid him up with lots of salary and lots of years - the only team that can truly play in that sandbox is Boston, someone else might but it will be a considerable risk. The economics of baseball really don't apply to the Yankees and Boston.