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whitesoxwilkes
09-08-2003, 06:30 PM
It's probably been discussed here 100 times, but what exactly is a quality start?

delben91
09-08-2003, 06:42 PM
I believe it's at least 6 IP from the starting pitcher and 3 or less earned runs given up by that same starter.

But I've been wrong before.

TimChamp
09-08-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by delben91
I believe it's at least 6 IP from the starting pitcher and 3 or less earned runs given up by that same starter.

But I've been wrong before.


I believe it's 3 RUNS or less...I'm not sure about that, but I think it is solely based on runs and not about EARNED runs you give up. You are right about the 6+ IP though...


Champ out...

MisterB
09-08-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by TimChamp
I believe it's 3 RUNS or less...I'm not sure about that, but I think it is solely based on runs and not about EARNED runs you give up. You are right about the 6+ IP though...


Champ out...

It's earned runs. Runs as a pitching stat is of little use except to see how badly a pitcher has been victimized by the defense behind him.

kermittheefrog
09-08-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
It's earned runs. Runs as a pitching stat is of little use except to see how badly a pitcher has been victimized by the defense behind him.

I have to disagree here. The stat goes by earned runs but runs are better to look at. It's silly to think unearned runs have little or nothing to do with pitching. Just one example is a case of a batter reaching base via an error with two outs. The pitcher can follow up with a walk and a home run and all three runs are unearned. Thats completely silly. And if you get a lot of strikeouts you don't have to worry much about the defense creating unearned runs.

Hondo
09-08-2003, 10:56 PM
The definition of a Quality Start?

Colon tonight.

So Clutch!

voodoochile
09-09-2003, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I have to disagree here. The stat goes by earned runs but runs are better to look at. It's silly to think unearned runs have little or nothing to do with pitching. Just one example is a case of a batter reaching base via an error with two outs. The pitcher can follow up with a walk and a home run and all three runs are unearned. Thats completely silly. And if you get a lot of strikeouts you don't have to worry much about the defense creating unearned runs.

Are you sure about that? I thought homeruns were always earned no matter when they happened. If the scorer is in a bad mood, they might give the pitcher one for the walk that comes around to score too...

kermittheefrog
09-09-2003, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Are you sure about that? I thought homeruns were always earned no matter when they happened. If the scorer is in a bad mood, they might give the pitcher one for the walk that comes around to score too...

I can't say I'm 100% sure but I am fairly certain. I know runs after the third out should have happened are considered unearned but I don't know if there is a provision for home runs. If there is it makes the unearned run rule even stupider because of inconsistency. It's too radical to ever happen but I feel like errors should be completely eliminated as a statistic. Unlike say walks or singles or home runs they aren't tangible records of a specific event. It's a subjective attempt to quantify mistakes by defenders and it's such a flawed system that looking and errors and differentiating between earned runs and unearned runs is just silly.

voodoochile
09-09-2003, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I can't say I'm 100% sure but I am fairly certain. I know runs after the third out should have happened are considered unearned but I don't know if there is a provision for home runs. If there is it makes the unearned run rule even stupider because of inconsistency. It's too radical to ever happen but I feel like errors should be completely eliminated as a statistic. Unlike say walks or singles or home runs they aren't tangible records of a specific event. It's a subjective attempt to quantify mistakes by defenders and it's such a flawed system that looking and errors and differentiating between earned runs and unearned runs is just silly.

I admit, I don't know and was going from memory. It at least makes sense that at least two of the runs in your example would be earned, because if the error hadn't happened (instead a third out), the next two batters could have still led off the next inning with the same results.

Certainly if they are considered unearned, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I mean there comes a point where the pitcher has to be responsible and allowing them off the hook because they were "rattled" by the error seems at best arbitrary and at worst, a sham. So, I guess we agree about the unearned runs in general.

TimChamp
09-09-2003, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I can't say I'm 100% sure but I am fairly certain. I know runs after the third out should have happened are considered unearned but I don't know if there is a provision for home runs. If there is it makes the unearned run rule even stupider because of inconsistency. It's too radical to ever happen but I feel like errors should be completely eliminated as a statistic. Unlike say walks or singles or home runs they aren't tangible records of a specific event. It's a subjective attempt to quantify mistakes by defenders and it's such a flawed system that looking and errors and differentiating between earned runs and unearned runs is just silly.

I've seen some cases where it was two outs and a runner gets on because of an error and continues the inning and both the walk and the preceeding homerun counted as earned runs afterward. Meanwhile, I have also seen all the runs thereafter the error NOT count...I really think it's sometimes up to the official scorer to decide...


Champ out to get some sleep...

TDog
09-09-2003, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Are you sure about that? I thought homeruns were always earned no matter when they happened. If the scorer is in a bad mood, they might give the pitcher one for the walk that comes around to score too...

This is all covered in section 10 of the Major League Baseball rulebook. Scorers have very little discretion over whether runs are earned or unearned, beyond their hit-error and passed ball-wild pitch rulings.

If an inning would be over but for errors, the runs are unearned. The shortstop bobbles a two-out grounder, the pitcher walks two and gives up a slam, it's four unearned runs. If the third baseman drops a pop foul and the next pitch goes into the bleachers, the run is unearned because the error would have retired the hitter. Remember, though, that you can't assume the double play.

In August 1971, the Cubs scored a 10-run first inning against the Astros. (The local media gave those runs considerably more attention than the seven earned runs the Sox scored in their first inning in Cleveland that night.) All the Cubs' runs were unearned because of a two-out infield error that prolonged the inning before any runs were scored. There were a bunch of bases-loaded walks. I have forgotten how many home runs were hit in the inning.

I don't recall if the Astros changed pitchers in the first that afternoon 32 years ago. If they had, all of the runs would have been unearned against the team's ERA, but some would have counted against the relievers' personal ERAs. A relief pitcher has to earn three outs before the runs against him can be called unearned.

When I look at a pitcher's stats, I look at the number of unearned runs allowed. Often pitchers deserve the blame for unearned runs. A pitcher who gives up a lot of them may be as much at fault as his fielders.

In recent years, some Sox pitchers have given me the impression that they believe the unearned runs scored against them don't really count -- that they don't care. I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that way.