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View Full Version : Will Fisk be part of this weekend's celebrations?


Viva Magglio
09-05-2003, 02:10 PM
I was reading the White Sox press release (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20030904&content_id=511673&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha) about this weekend's celebrations of 1983, and I noticed that Carlton Fisk was not listed among the players to be honored before tonight's game. That is surprising. I know Fisk and Jerry Reinsdorf have had a bitter relationship, but Fisk has been at the ballpark for a number of occasions since he left the team.

LASOXFAN
09-05-2003, 02:32 PM
Happy to see that Wimpy is going. Too bad about Pudge. Hell, he lives in Lockport. How hard can it be?

dickallen15
09-05-2003, 02:44 PM
He'll probably show up, he probably didn't give them a firm commitment, so they left him off the press release. He sometimes just likes to be an ass. Last year , one of the food stands down the line was named Pudge's Pizza. It was changed during the season to LaRussa's Pizza. I thought that was strange, so I asked someone with the White Sox about it during a season ticketholder party. Evidently, one of Fisk's friends had a problem with Connie's Pizza, which is served at the stand, so Carlton complained about it, wanted his name off of it, and his name was removed. Of course, right before they removed it he said it was OK to keep it, they removed it anyway. I think there is a Pudge's Pizza now in the upperdeck, however. Its just childish bickering.

LASOXFAN
09-05-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
He'll probably show up, he probably didn't give them a firm commitment, so they left him off the press release. He sometimes just likes to be an ass. Last year , one of the food stands down the line was named Pudge's Pizza. It was changed during the season to LaRussa's Pizza. I thought that was strange, so I asked someone with the White Sox about it during a season ticketholder party. Evidently, one of Fisk's friends had a problem with Connie's Pizza, which is served at the stand, so Carlton complained about it, wanted his name off of it, and his name was removed. Of course, right before they removed it he said it was OK to keep it, they removed it anyway. I think there is a Pudge's Pizza now in the upperdeck, however. Its just childish bickering.

As much as I loved Pudge, I still have a hard time with the fact that he went in to the hall wearing a Red Sox cap. I know that ultimately it's Cooperstown's call, but Fisk had a say in the matter and chose boston. His rift with Reinsdorf aside, that was a big FU to fans as well, whether he intended it to be or not.

the only way to rectify this situation would be to make him manager of the White Sox for the next 20 years, where he would lead us to a number of WS victories and ultimately get him in Cooperstown as a manager wearing a WHITE SOX CAP.

mandmandm
09-05-2003, 03:05 PM
As great of player he was he sure seems to be a jerk.

Viva Magglio
09-05-2003, 03:16 PM
I just had a scary thought, something that could be even worse than Cataclysmic Friday...what if the Sox bring back as part of the 1983 celebrations...RIBBIE AND ROOBARB!!!!

JohnJeter
09-05-2003, 03:23 PM
Not if you put 'em down at the end of the speed pitch booth.

LuvSox
09-05-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
As great of player he was he sure seems to be a jerk.

During his interview before the Futures Game, he had nothing but great things to say about the team, the park & especially the fans. He's a person with alot of pride, that's all it is.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2003, 03:31 PM
I respect what Carlton Fisk did as a ballplayer, especially how he brought dignity and credibility back to the Sox franchise when he signed as a free agent back in 1981. I don't even begrudge him his choice of a Red Sox cap to enter the hall of fame. He's from New England and had the most memorable moments in his career playing for Boston. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't need to apologize at all.

However, as a human being, Carlton Fisk is an ass. His long-running feud with the Sox generally, and Jerry Reinsdorf specifically, is completely uncalled for. If he and Reinsdorf can't get along, it's probably because they mutually loathe so much of what they both have in common. Reinsdorf is petty and bullheaded. Who can deny that Carlton Fisk isn't, too?

Sorry folks. I've gotta call 'em like I see 'em. :(:

seventytwo
09-05-2003, 03:48 PM
Booooooooooooooooooooooooo!! :angry:

pudge
09-05-2003, 04:59 PM
Having the username of "pudge" I feel I need to respond. Teammates loved him, he played the game hard, he was never in trouble outside of the game and known as a dedicated family man.

Now what else do you want? True, he was not a super fan-friendly person. True, he thought he should have been treated better by management. I have no problem with either. First off, fans want every player to treat them like a best friend, which I think is a joke. I have never asked for an autograph in my life and I never will because I think it's moronic to treat athletes different than any other normal human. But beside that, was Carlton Fisk more of an ass than Frank Thomas has been in his career? How about Barry Bonds? Sammy Sosa?

I think Fisk was *mild* compared to the above names. Maybe he does have a minor fued still going with JR. So do many of you on this website!

That's all from me on this issue.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2003, 05:17 PM
For the record, I think Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa are both asses of the first order. I think Frank Thomas is a bit of an arrested adolescent, and that makes him behave like an ass, too. Along with Carlton Fisk, the ass, all of these players deserve to be in the hall of fame.

IMO, ballplayers don't deserve any respect beyond what they accomplish on the field. The ballplayers noted above get very low marks for everything they've done off the field. I agree Fisk (and Thomas) aren't as bad as the other two.

Just my opinion, of course...

Reichardt
09-05-2003, 05:42 PM
Joe McConnell was on and Indy radio station this afternoon discussing the 83' team reunion at Ditka's last night. He said that 20 of the 25 players were there. Missing were Barojas, Agosto, Tidrow, Rodriguez(deceased), and Pudge. He said the biggest suprise - aside from the Pudge no show - was Tony LaRussa sticking around for the entire evening.

dickallen15
09-05-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Having the username of "pudge" I feel I need to respond. Teammates loved him, he played the game hard, he was never in trouble outside of the game and known as a dedicated family man.

Now what else do you want? True, he was not a super fan-friendly person. True, he thought he should have been treated better by management. I have no problem with either. First off, fans want every player to treat them like a best friend, which I think is a joke. I have never asked for an autograph in my life and I never will because I think it's moronic to treat athletes different than any other normal human. But beside that, was Carlton Fisk more of an ass than Frank Thomas has been in his career? How about Barry Bonds? Sammy Sosa?

I think Fisk was *mild* compared to the above names. Maybe he does have a minor fued still going with JR. So do many of you on this website!

That's all from me on this issue.




Just another thought, many of his teammates thought he was an ass. I golf occassionally with a fellow who is Bernie Carbo's brother in law. Carbo held a golf tournament for charity and had many of the '75 Red Sox and '75 Reds at this tournament. Carbo played with Cincinatti before he went to Boston, and has many friends on both teams. If you recall Carlton's famous homerun in that World Series, Carbo hit one in the 9th or 10 inning to tie the game, a homerun that doesn't get nearly the publicity it deserved. Back to this tournament. Carbo had signed some balls and wanted Fisk to sign them as well, and auction them off for charity. When he asked Fisk to sign the balls, he was turned down. Tony Perez, who is known as a class act, happened to be walking by as Carlton said no and said, "Hey Fisk, if it wasn't for Carbo you never would have hit that homerun, and wouldn't be half as famous as you are now, sign the f****ing baseballs."Carlton signed the balls. I think he likes to be begged to do things.

LuvSox
09-05-2003, 05:59 PM
If we're going to play the "I-know-this-one-guy" game, it's my turn. The guy who did my home inspection before the purchase of our current house had a son on the same Little League team as Pudge's. They used to bs all the time, never once with a problem. He even told me where Carlton like to gets coffee in case I wanted to meet him sometime.


My point is that none of us knows him personally. Has he ever beat his wife with a Rum bottle. No. Has he swindled his own charity. No. Corked bats? Steroids? Let it go, he's one of the best parts of Sox history.

dickallen15
09-05-2003, 06:11 PM
My point is that his feud with Reinsdorf is childish. The story I have is true, if I really thought it added anything to any other post, I would have used it long ago. Carlton is difficult, especially when it comes to the White Sox. If he's there tonight, great, you are right , he is a hall of famer, and deservedly so. If he's not there tonight, fine, the show will go on with out him. Its just that most requests the White Sox or just about anyone make with the guy , are rebuffed. I think he wants people to say pretty please. His absence tonight would be more his loss than ours.

RKMeibalane
09-05-2003, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
My point is that his feud with Reinsdorf is childish. The story I have is true, if I really thought it added anything to any other post, I would have used it long ago. Carlton is difficult, especially when it comes to the White Sox. If he's there tonight, great, you are right , he is a hall of famer, and deservedly so. If he's not there tonight, fine, the show will go on with out him. Its just that most requests the White Sox or just about anyone make with the guy , are rebuffed. I think he wants people to say pretty please. His absence tonight would be more his loss than ours.

I couldn't agree more. If Fisk has a problem with Reinsdorf, that's his business. What bothers me is the fact that he doesn't want to see his former teammates. After being apart from many of them for several years, one would think that Pudge would jump at the chance to those people again. But, if he doesn't, that's his business, too. Carlton Fisk was a great player, one of the best catchers to ever play the game. But baseball has survived without him, and it will continue to do so. I couldn't care less if he's there tonight. All I want to see is a "White Sox Winner."

pudge
09-05-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
My point is that his feud with Reinsdorf is childish. The story I have is true, if I really thought it added anything to any other post, I would have used it long ago. Carlton is difficult, especially when it comes to the White Sox. If he's there tonight, great, you are right , he is a hall of famer, and deservedly so. If he's not there tonight, fine, the show will go on with out him. Its just that most requests the White Sox or just about anyone make with the guy , are rebuffed. I think he wants people to say pretty please. His absence tonight would be more his loss than ours.

I can't really comment on your story, as I obviously wasn't there, but it sounds like there may be a bit of jealousy toward Fisk involved too.

Again, I think the autograph thing is totally dumb, whether it's for charity or not. If I were an athlete, I'd get sick of signing a bunch of crap too. I would do it for little kids or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that I think autographs are lame. So I just don't have a major problem with a guy who doesn't want to sign stuff, that doesn't make him an ass in my mind.

I also disagree with Fisk having to do all this social crap. Some people are private people and don't like going out in public. Fisk was all about the game and no b.s. Maybe it's not that he needs to be begged, maybe he just doesn't want to go to stupid events like an '83 team reunion. I happened to miss my H.S. reunion this year because I could give a rats butt about most of my old classmates. Some people just don't like that kind of stuff. So I guess I continue to identify with Fisk and his attitude, which is why he was always a favorite of mine.

If the Feud with JR is childish (which I don't disagree) then some people on this website who continue to pound JR each and every day must be considered childish too.

SouthBendSox
09-05-2003, 07:41 PM
he sold out the team thats pays his bills to be another lackey in the RedSox obsessed media northeast

send him to Manuel's level of hell

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Reichardt
Joe McConnell was on and Indy radio station this afternoon discussing the 83' team reunion at Ditka's last night. He said that 20 of the 25 players were there. Missing were Barojas, Agosto, Tidrow, Rodriguez(deceased), and Pudge. He said the biggest suprise - aside from the Pudge no show - was Tony LaRussa sticking around for the entire evening.

He got lost driving in from Lockport?

Forget about showing disrespect to the Sox owner (who probably deserves it) or even Sox fans (who definitely don't). Isn't he showing no respect to his teammates, too?

I'm sorry, that just blows.... :angry:

Hey Carlton, why don't you publicly take another verbal swing against your father? I'm betting a few of us had almost forgotten your extended comments on the subject during your HOF speech. Yeah, that was class...

LongLiveFisk
09-06-2003, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
As great of player he was he sure seems to be a jerk.

I have met him quite a few times over the past 15 years and I can honestly tell you that he's never been anything but nice to me. Maybe he's just one of those really touchy people when it comes to the way people approach him (and no, this is not making excuses just trying to understand it). At any rate, he still remembers my face. Not my name, but he's met tons of people over the years so that's to be expected. Faces are easier to remember than names.

But as you can tell from my name here on WSI, I am a fan and do give him the benefit of the doubt in my own biased way :smile:

LongLiveFisk
09-06-2003, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm sorry, that just blows.... :angry:



Yeah, it did suck that he wasn't there but my question is: just how long was this '83 reunion planned? I mean, is it possible the guy was just out of town or had other commitments already? If he was still pissed at the Sox I doubt he would show up at all at the Cell, and he's been there on more than one occasion since his ugly departure from the team.

So, I'm inclined to think it may not be vindictive. But who knows.

mike squires
09-06-2003, 01:11 AM
I asked Richard Dotson if Fisk was here before tonights game. He said he thought he was out of town but thinks he will be here for tomorrows game. that makes me feel a little better. His name on my seat will just have to wait.

dickallen15
09-06-2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by LongLiveFisk
Yeah, it did suck that he wasn't there but my question is: just how long was this '83 reunion planned? I mean, is it possible the guy was just out of town or had other commitments already? If he was still pissed at the Sox I doubt he would show up at all at the Cell, and he's been there on more than one occasion since his ugly departure from the team.

So, I'm inclined to think it may not be vindictive. But who knows.


The reunion was planned months ago, maybe even a year ago. Maybe his reason for not being there is legit. You think he could have rearanged his schedule to accomodate this special event. The story I had about him and Carbo, was about signing 5 baseballs to be auctioned off for childrens charity. If Fisk supporters out there find nothing wrong with him saying no, God help you. It was for charity, requested by an ex teammate. If a card show asks him to sign for $50 a ball, I bet he wouldn't say no. I can tell you this, if he gets invited by the Sox to an event, if he says no, thats the end of it the White Sox aren't going to beg him anymore. This feud has to end. The way he was released by the Sox was shameful, no question about it. But any other feud, cmon. Does he think he was underpaid? It doesn't appear he is suffering financially. He has no real job, he golfs all the time. The White Sox took care of him, and he earned everything he got. They both should be proud of their former partnership.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-06-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
The reunion was planned months ago, maybe even a year ago. Maybe his reason for not being there is legit. You think he could have rearanged his schedule to accomodate this special event. The story I had about him and Carbo, was about signing 5 baseballs to be auctioned off for childrens charity. If Fisk supporters out there find nothing wrong with him saying no, God help you. It was for charity, requested by an ex teammate. If a card show asks him to sign for $50 a ball, I bet he wouldn't say no. I can tell you this, if he gets invited by the Sox to an event, if he says no, thats the end of it the White Sox aren't going to beg him anymore. This feud has to end. The way he was released by the Sox was shameful, no question about it. But any other feud, cmon. Does he think he was underpaid? It doesn't appear he is suffering financially. He has no real job, he golfs all the time. The White Sox took care of him, and he earned everything he got. They both should be proud of their former partnership.

I would also note that all but five of the original '83 team managed to show up. One of those five is dead. Of the other four, do any besides Carlton Fisk live around Chicago? How did 20 other guys--even Tony LaRussa in the middle of a pennant chase-- manage to get here? Is he golfing?

I'll gladly jump on any other '83 Sox ballplayer living around Chicago who didn't show up for that dinner. Right now, that list consists of one guy.

pudge
09-06-2003, 03:47 PM
If the above story really was about five balls for charity, then that's lame. I just think Fisk is an anti-social person, and I think anti-social people tend to be misunderstood and labeled as jerks. I honestly have no problem with someone ditching an '83 team reunion. Different strokes for different folks.

LongLiveFisk
09-06-2003, 04:34 PM
He was there today after all. In case anyone missed it, he caught the ceremonial first pitch thrown out by LaMarr Hoyt.

I'm glad. Way to go, Pudge.

:)

LuvSox
09-06-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by LongLiveFisk
He was there today after all. In case anyone missed it, he caught the ceremonial first pitch thrown out by LaMarr Hoyt.

I'm glad. Way to go, Pudge.

:)


Hmmm, anyone jump the gun?

doogiec
09-07-2003, 12:25 PM
Here's my take on the whole Fisk thing:

During Fisk's career here, I repeatedly saw him blow off autographs, ignore the fans, and generally consider himself above everything around him.

I went to spring training at Payne Park several times. At Payne Park, the dugouts were not connected to the clubhouse. so the players had to walk through the fans on and off the field. Consistantly every player would stop to sign a few autographs for kids. Except Fisk. Every time.

I rarely saw Fisk acknowledge the fans before any game at Comiskey.

Fisk battled with every manager and every owner he dealt with. His feud with Reinsdorf may have had something to do with his decision in Cooperstown, but don't forget he had a feud with Red Sox management that was even worse, eventually allowing him to move to Chicago.

Everyone on the planet except Fisk knew his career was over when the Sox released him. The White Sox gave him every opportunity to retire with honor at home, including "Carlton Fisk Day". When he made it clear he would not go peacefully, the Sox did the smart thing and released him on the road, away from Chicago media.

There have been some mentions of Fisk never having off the field problems. However I remember an occasion after his retirement where he decked a high school kid at one of his kids athletic events.

Thomas, on the other hand, has been exceptional at signing autographs and interacting with fans off the field. I have seen it dozens of times, both during the good and bad years.

The difference is perception is simple: Fisk, while a jerk, was a master at manipulating the media. Thomas has no idea how to handle the media. Therefore the reversed perception exists.

BTW, Carlton Fisk was my favorite player. I completely admire and respect his work on the field, I believe he was one of the greatest players who ever played the game.

TornLabrum
09-07-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
Here's my take on the whole Fisk thing:

During Fisk's career here, I repeatedly saw him blow off autographs, ignore the fans, and generally consider himself above everything around him.

I went to spring training at Payne Park several times. At Payne Park, the dugouts were not connected to the clubhouse. so the players had to walk through the fans on and off the field. Consistantly every player would stop to sign a few autographs for kids. Except Fisk. Every time.

I rarely saw Fisk acknowledge the fans before any game at Comiskey.

Fisk battled with every manager and every owner he dealt with. His feud with Reinsdorf may have had something to do with his decision in Cooperstown, but don't forget he had a feud with Red Sox management that was even worse, eventually allowing him to move to Chicago.

Everyone on the planet except Fisk knew his career was over when the Sox released him. The White Sox gave him every opportunity to retire with honor at home, including "Carlton Fisk Day". When he made it clear he would not go peacefully, the Sox did the smart thing and released him on the road, away from Chicago media.

There have been some mentions of Fisk never having off the field problems. However I remember an occasion after his retirement where he decked a high school kid at one of his kids athletic events.

Thomas, on the other hand, has been exceptional at signing autographs and interacting with fans off the field. I have seen it dozens of times, both during the good and bad years.

The difference is perception is simple: Fisk, while a jerk, was a master at manipulating the media. Thomas has no idea how to handle the media. Therefore the reversed perception exists.

BTW, Carlton Fisk was my favorite player. I completely admire and respect his work on the field, I believe he was one of the greatest players who ever played the game.

Excellent post. I would also add that probably the first perception the general public got about what a tool Fisk is as a human being came during his overly long Hall-of-Fame induction speech in which he took the opportunity to spew his resentments towards his father.