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mandmandm
09-03-2003, 09:20 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay03.html

When I sat down to watch the game last night I said to my wife "where the hell are all the Sox fans?" Last night's turnout was a disgrace. Pepsi night, web special, 2 for 1 coupons, Boston Red Sox, first place White Sox. Inexcusable. I will be there tonight to help the attendance and I sure hope there are 39,999 Sox fans to cheer with me. I know I am preaching to the choir but this is a problem.

Viva Magglio
09-03-2003, 09:27 AM
I agree with Jay too. We should have been out there.

Rocky Soprano
09-03-2003, 09:28 AM
I enjoyed his article this morning. I was surprised that he straight out said that the Sox are the better team in the City. I thought it was a well written article and I also agree that its sad to see the lack of attendance. This team needs our support, there is no reason why we shouldnt of hit at least 30K yesterday.

LuvSox
09-03-2003, 09:41 AM
It was very surprising to see the attendance at around 23,000 (whatever it was.) It was also Police & Fire night, half price with a voucher. The Sox didn't publicize that much though.

Mammoo
09-03-2003, 09:42 AM
Haven't read the article yet, but the small turnout was surprising. It's an amazing thing. :?:

Of course, I've only gone twice this year (and had a great time), so who am I to talk. I spend my disposable sports income on Bears season tickets (North Endzone), so I've got my own problems :D:

Jerko
09-03-2003, 09:52 AM
Maybe nobody wanted to sit with a bunch of drunk cops and firemen .............or maybe people were afraid that all the drunks from the 15 inning game at the Pisspot with no tickets for game 2 would show up at the Cell and make the entire evening unenjoyable for everybody around them. I'm sure that turned a few people away, especially since it was half price night and that seems to be when the White Trash Waylos make their appearances.

cheeses_h_rice
09-03-2003, 10:05 AM
I tried to get tickets just now for that Web special, only to find out that you can't get the discount anymore (deadline was 8/31).

Makes sense.

I was waiting to see what the weather would be like, seeing as this weekend was disgusting...oh well.

hold2dibber
09-03-2003, 10:15 AM
I was surprised they didn't have 30K in the park last night. I think the Cubs game had something to do with it - there are a decent number of "casual fans" who probably chose to go to (or watch on tv) the Cubs instead of turning out at Comiskey. Attendance always drops significantly in Sept. for week night games when school is back in session. There are a lot of high school and college kids who frequent week night games and half price nights in the summer, who no longer can go. But those are reasons, not excuses.

Tonight will be even worse - no half price night to intice people. Very distressing. I'm guessing 17,000 or so.

voodoochile
09-03-2003, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I tried to get tickets just now for that Web special, only to find out that you can't get the discount anymore (deadline was 8/31).

Makes sense.

I was waiting to see what the weather would be like, seeing as this weekend was disgusting...oh well.

I think the competing game on the northside hurt attendance. I am also not sure how good of a job the Sox did advertising the discounts and to cut them off on the 31st was just plain stupid.

OurBitchinMinny
09-03-2003, 10:19 AM
The attendance was ridiculous. Mariotti was right to write about it. Comiskey is a nicer stadium than the urinal. Hell the twins have been drawing 30,000 at that ****ty dome when the weather is 80 degrees out and perfect in the TC. Sox fans show up!!!I wish I could, but I am stuck living in Minnesota. I will be at the games up here, but Im in school and cant be in chicago so I cant get to comiskey. It just looks bad nationally when the attendance is so low for a 1st place team. Tonights game is on ESPN2 and the announcers will make a big deal if there is not a big crowd. Hopefully the att is around 30,000+ tonight. More importantly, hopefully the White Sox win.

Rocky Soprano
09-03-2003, 10:19 AM
There should be no reason why we dont AT LEAST draw 30K every night. The Flubs draw almost 40K even though kids are back in school, with no half off games, etc.

Its truly sad to see this trend.

We all have our reasons, EXCUSES, for not going but very few are valid.

I include myself in this next comment:

ITS TIME TO SHUT UP AND JUST SHOW UP!

This team deserves our support!

Chisox353014
09-03-2003, 10:21 AM
Well, my 7 friends and I did our part and showed up last night. None of us could figure out why the heck the place wasn't packed. First place in a close pennant race and half price (or cheaper) tickets...and we don't even get 25,000. I rarely get bothered by the whole attendence thing but that's pretty damn weak. What's worse is that the upper deck was at least 1/3 Boston fans if not more. Very annoying. Freakin' Cub fans of the American League :angry:

mandmandm
09-03-2003, 10:22 AM
Tonight is Steve Dahl nite so that might positively effect attendance.

Jerko
09-03-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
There should be no reason why we dont AT LEAST draw 30K every night. The Flubs draw almost 40K even though kids are back in school, with no half off games, etc.

Its truly sad to see this trend.

We all have our reasons, EXCUSES, for not going but very few are valid.

I include myself in this next comment:

ITS TIME TO SHUT UP AND JUST SHOW UP!

This team deserves our support!


Rocky, you're going to get hammered for this post after admitting YOU WERE AT WRIGLEY YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PaleHoseGeorge
09-03-2003, 10:39 AM
We've covered this subject a million times, but it bears repeating now. The people who come here are not part of the problem. The average visitor to this board goes to far more games than the average fan. We tend to be rabid in our support of the Sox. The problem isn't that too few Sox Fans bother to show up for games either. This was a popular theory not too many years ago, especially in 2000 when Dave Wills and others were imploring Sox Fans to get behind a winning team.

Nope, the problem is far deeper than anything noted above. The problem is, after 22 years of Jerry Reinsdorf Sox ownership (and Cubune ownership of the Flubs), there simply aren't as many Sox Fans as there used to be. Or alternately, the rate of growth for the Sox Fan population has been far outstripped by the growth of casual fans that are all too willing to swallow the bald-faced lies and half-truths that they're serving on the North Side of town.

You can't fix this problem by complaining, especially on this message board. The Sox need to get their marketing plan fixed, starting with selling more season ticket packages and multi-game purchase plans. Nobody should be surprised--NOBODY-- that walk-up promotions (like the Pepsi half-price nights) lose their effectiveness once school starts. That promotion is specifically meant to appeal to the type of fan that simply doesn't go to too many games when it isn't convenient--such as cold weather or school night for the kids.

The Flubbies draw to the Urinal because EVERYTHING they do is geared towards generating ticket scarcity. The easist way to generate ticket scarcity is selling as many tickets as possible BEFORE the day of the game. And the easiest way to generate pre-game sales is to sell season ticket packages. Those folks from Iowa didn't just walk up for the Flubbie game.

The fact the Flubbies successfully sell "entertainment" at "Beaaaaa-utiful Wrigley Field" just underscores how disinterested their fanbase is in winning baseball. I believe there is a big market for winning baseball in Chicago, just like there is for winning football, basketball, and hockey. If the Sox would just get their act together (on and off the field), we could make some traction at the turnstiles. Of course the easiest way to improve their chances of succeeding (and helping build popularity for WINNING Chicago baseball) is for the Lovable Losers to keep losing. For most of the last century they have only considered winning a secondary consideration, and that is both the problem and the opportunity for the Sox marketing department to exploit.

FJA
09-03-2003, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by mandmandm
http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay03.html

When I sat down to watch the game last night I said to my wife "where the hell are all the Sox fans?" Last night's turnout was a disgrace. Pepsi night, web special, 2 for 1 coupons, Boston Red Sox, first place White Sox. Inexcusable. I will be there tonight to help the attendance and I sure hope there are 39,999 Sox fans to cheer with me. I know I am preaching to the choir but this is a problem.

I was very discouraged by last night's attendance as well ... Jay is right on with this. I went to one of the Red Sox games earlier in the season, and I could swear there were more than 23,000 there (I believe it was also a Tuesday game, but I'm not positive).

The worst part is, as someone already mentioned, A LOT of BoSox fans turn out on the road. That wasn't even 23,000 White Sox fans. Not by any stretch.

I dread to think what the attendance will be tonight, at a 6:05 non-divisional game with no discount, right before a hyped Turn Back the Clock weekend that will probably have a good turnout. I just hope we don't embarrass ourselves on ESPN, but I have a feeling that might be the case.

To be fair, people might be saving their money for upcoming series. Look at the next two Monday home games (usually the best attendance): Twins and Yankees. There is also a weekend series with KC. I sure as hell hope we don't have to worry about attendance for those games. The Twins series better be full at least on Monday and Tuesday.

Rocky Soprano
09-03-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
Rocky, you're going to get hammered for this post after admitting YOU WERE AT WRIGLEY YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If it wasnt work related I wouldnt of been at Wrigley, I truly hate going there.

And like I said, I include myself in my comments.

I dont have the money to buy season tickets, I wish I did, I would buy them in a heart beat. I try to go as much as possible. I have gone to at least 20+ games this year. It might not sound much to many here but whenever I have the opportunity to go and money I am there.

Im not trying to diss anyone here because most of us are true fans and try to go as much as possible.

Its just sad to see that we are not drawing well when our team is in 1st!

Jerko
09-03-2003, 10:59 AM
I was not calling you out, but I feel better now knowing it was work related. I hate to say, I've been roped into a few of those too! I do agree with being dismayed over the lack of attendance. I swore I heard somewhere that the lower deck was sold out for one of these Red Sox games. I guess my sources are slipping.

FJA
09-03-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
We've covered this subject a million times, but it bears repeating now. The people who come here are not part of the problem. The average visitor to this board goes to far more games than the average fan. We tend to be rabid in our support of the Sox. The problem isn't that too few Sox Fans bother to show up for games either. This was a popular theory not too many years ago, especially in 2000 when Dave Wills and others were imploring Sox Fans to get behind a winning team.

Nope, the problem is far deeper than anything noted above. The problem is, after 22 years of Jerry Reinsdorf Sox ownership (and Cubune ownership of the Flubs), there simply aren't as many Sox Fans as there used to be. Or alternately, the rate of growth for the Sox Fan population has been far outstripped by the growth of casual fans that are all too willing to swallow the bald-faced lies and half-truths that they're serving on the North Side of town.

You can't fix this problem by complaining, especially on this message board. The Sox need to get their marketing plan fixed, starting with selling more season ticket packages and multi-game purchase plans. Nobody should be surprised--NOBODY-- that walk-up promotions (like the Pepsi half-price nights) lose their effectiveness once school starts. That promotion is specifically meant to appeal to the type of fan that simply doesn't go to too many games when it isn't convenient--such as cold weather or school night for the kids.

The Flubbies draw to the Urinal because EVERYTHING they do is geared towards generating ticket scarcity. The easist way to generate ticket scarcity is selling as many tickets as possible BEFORE the day of the game. And the easiest way to generate pre-game sales is to sell season ticket packages. Those folks from Iowa didn't just walk up for the Flubbie game.

The fact the Flubbies successfully sell "entertainment" at "Beaaaaa-utiful Wrigley Field" just underscores how disinterested their fanbase is in winning baseball. I believe there is a big market for winning baseball in Chicago, just like there is for winning football, basketball, and hockey. If the Sox would just get their act together (on and off the field), we could make some traction at the turnstiles. Of course the easiest way to improve their chances of succeeding (and helping build popularity for WINNING Chicago baseball) is for the Lovable Losers to keep losing. For most of the last century they have only considered winning a secondary consideration, and that is both the problem and the opportunity for the Sox marketing department to exploit.

PHG, this hits the nail on the head. The Sox have a rabid fanbase ... they need to better attract the "casual" fan. If we're talking about the type that goes to the Urinal now, there are two ways to do that, IMO. 1) Build up the neighborhood around the park, so the casual fan is going out on the town, not just going to a baseball game, or 2) Win consistently.

Obviously, the Flubbies thrive on the former, and they get the "young professionals," the most important group for us to market to if we ever want to beat the Flubs in attendance. Those are the people who, without a family to support, and usually without a mortgage to pay, have the disposable income. Unfortunately, bars and restaurants are a better way to attract that crowd to the ballpark area than the mediocre baseball we have most years on the South Side.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-03-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
If it wasnt work related I wouldnt of been at Wrigley, I truly hate going there....


Were they company tickets you were using? Most full-season ticket packages are sold to businesses, both large and small, for entertaining clients and rewarding employees. It used to be the Sox went toe-to-toe with the Flubs for these sorts of "corporate" customers. Most businesses that had tickets for one team also had tickets for the other, too. "Keep everybody happy" was the policy. As recently as the mid-90's the Sox appeared to be holding their own just fine in this department. What happened?

The strike happened. Fan apathy happened. Loathing of Jerry Reinsdorf happened, helped along when he called all of us "crazy" for believing in his '97 team. No corporate customer is going to fork over the price of season tickets if their clients don't want the tickets and their employees don't want them either. Most of them only buy Flubbie tickets today because they never go begging for someone to use them. Who's fault is that?

The Sox surrendered the corporate customers. If it wasn't for Rein$dorf's Diamond Suites, we would have virtually no visibility in Chicago's boardrooms whatsoever. Sox Marketing needs to pull out all the stops to convince these former customers to buy season ticket plans. Whatever they're doing right now isn't nearly enough.

inta
09-03-2003, 11:07 AM
i felt like an ass not going last night when i saw the empty stadium, but i had just bought tickets friday and saturday's indians games and tix for the yankees before they announced that web deal special... i just couldnt allow myself to spend more at the cell (i like to drink and eat alot there).

i will say that i had tickets to the cubs nightgame last night and gave them back to the friend who offered them after i learned sox game was on the U. of course i was only pondering going to cheer the red birds.

marrioti is right, i'll agree with him on this.

BeerHandle
09-03-2003, 11:14 AM
Does the Sox marketing department every have surveys/town forums with the Sox fans? If not, does someone know Gallas and can make some suggestions?

It is time for the fans to return!

Rocky Soprano
09-03-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Were they company tickets you were using? Most full-season ticket packages are sold to businesses, both large and small, for entertaining clients and rewarding employees. It used to be the Sox went toe-to-toe with the Flubs for these sorts of "corporate" customers. Most businesses that had tickets for one team also had tickets for the other, too. "Keep everybody happy" was the policy. As recently as the mid-90's the Sox appeared to be holding their own just fine in this department. What happened?


Yes they were company tickets. We do have Sox tickets as well but the funny thing about it is that the big VP here is a Sox fan so he usually uses the tickets himself. Our Sox tickets are 4 rows up from the Sox Dougout, I have used them maybe on 3 different times, awesome seats!

For some reason we buy more Cub tickets than Sox tickets. There reason is that more clients rather go to Wrigley because of the "atmosphere." They dont care about watching a winning team, they want Cubs, and I quote "Because its fun to drink beer there."

FJA
09-03-2003, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
I dont have the money to buy season tickets, I wish I did, I would buy them in a heart beat. I try to go as much as possible. I have gone to at least 20+ games this year. It might not sound much to many here but whenever I have the opportunity to go and money I am there.

I'm in the exact same boat, and I hate it more than anything when the media talks about the attendance for a game I WASN'T at ... I admit, I feel a bit guilty.

But for non-season ticket holders--and for most of the non-season ticket holders on this board, it's probably almost solely a money issue--20+ games is a lot. The problem isn't guys like you or me, going to 20+ games. Quite frankly, diehards shouldn't HAVE to go to 20+ games just to keep the ballpark up and running. They should want to go to every game, but you have a real problem when you count on non-season ticket holders to go to 20 games.

The problem is that this organization hasn't attracted new fans in years. The secondary problem, which in the long run might be a greater one, is that kids are flocking to the warm and fuzzy Sham-Me Flubbies. I was talking with a guy at the Cell with three of his kids in the left field bleachers last week, and two of the three were Sham-Me fans. Of course, the father was performing his fatherly duty taking the kids to a Sox game :smile: , but it's hard to compete when the Flubs have a superstar that appeals to kids. Maggs is the only player we have that comes close, but he's certainly not as high-profile as Sham-Me. I remember a lot of kids wearing Albert Belle shirts a few years ago. Albert Belle?!? Yeah, now there's a guy the kids can really latch onto for life!

If kids don't want to go to a Sox game, this whole "marketing to families" thing is failing. Because I find it hard to believe a family is going to spend a lot of money to go to a ballgame if the kids don't care about going. I don't necessarily blame the marketing department for that, because Sham-Me, who as his name suggests, is a SHAM, has crafted his image so perfectly for younger fans, and you can't compete with a natural marketing element, unless you have one of your own (which the Sox do not). As much as I hate Sham-Me, he has the kind of charisma that kids just eat up. And it's impossible to really counter that. Combine that with the young professional "hipness" of the Urinal, and you have a big problem on your hands. They really need to focus on the latter, because it's hard to tell kids "forget about Sammy ... we have a shower and games to play!" Kids are inundated with Sham-Me at every turn ... they can imitate him in their backyard home run derbies ... you are not going to win over the kids as long as Sham-Me is around. But you might be able to market to young adults--using the bullpen sports bar as a centerpiece to the marketing campaign--to get enough of them into the park with their friends for a long-term increase in attendance. I really think this is the only way to stop the bleeding. You convince them that the Cell is the place to be--maybe have some Bullpen specials that are different from the rest of the park's--and then when they have kids, they bring them back because the fun they had is still fresh in their minds from a few years back. Obviously they won't be bringing the kids to the Bullpen, but the Cell really is a nice place, especially when there are a lot of people there, and it's hard not to notice that.

Lip Man 1
09-03-2003, 11:28 AM
George:

A brilliant two posts. I suggest you e-mail them to some of the columnists simply because they make a ton of sense and the issue is going to come up again.

Lip

Hokiesox
09-03-2003, 11:35 AM
We out-of-towners will stay out of this one. But, I can't help but notice that when I go to see the sox in Camden Yards, there are more Sox fans than Orioles fans in the stadium. Is it possible that the Sox fan base is just spread out all over the place?

hose
09-03-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
Does the Sox marketing department every have surveys/town forums with the Sox fans? If not, does someone know Gallas and can make some suggestions?

It is time for the fans to return!


The Sox have done extensive surveys on who and where their fans are.

Web board and sports radio talk show fans were not even a blip on the radar screen when this survey was completed.

We may be die-hard Sox fans at WSI , but in the big scheme of things we are NOT the reason why the park isn't filled up.

The soccer Mom and Dad, casual fan , tourist , corporations, and advance ticket sales is what attendance is all about.

Bottom line is the die-hard Sox fans ARE going to the games and supporting the team, just not enough of the above mentioned .

FJA
09-03-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Hokiesox
We out-of-towners will stay out of this one. But, I can't help but notice that when I go to see the sox in Camden Yards, there are more Sox fans than Orioles fans in the stadium. Is it possible that the Sox fan base is just spread out all over the place?

That might be part of it, but I think even moreso, the Sox have, by far, more "true" fans than the Flubs (true, meaning diehard) ... more true fans than the media ever gives us credit for. Unfortunately, the true fans are usually the only ones that ever show up at the Cell. We're not attracting anyone "just out to see a ballgame."

JJAustin69
09-03-2003, 11:49 AM
I am in town and going to my first game this year on Friday night vs the Indians. Maybe I can squeeze in Saturdays too. Good to be back and I am motivating, arm twisting, demanding that my Sox friends come with me. They haven't been to any games this year and they live here. I will rally all the support I can. Grass roots effort is what WSI is best at.

hose
09-03-2003, 11:51 AM
ATTENTION ALL SOX FANS :

Don't get hung up on this attendance issue , it isn't worth getting down on yourself .....it not your fault.

And as far as the out of towner's feeling that they don't contribute to attendance, well they do. The Sox players were very happy to have the support in Detroit over the weekend . Even Jerry Manuel mentioned that the players were pumped to see the fan support at Detroit .

The Sox are going to have to win it all this year in order to get in the top 10 of the MLB attendance next year. Attendance is all about advance ticket sales.

If anything the Sox fan can take pride in the walk up numbers this year.

Foulke You
09-03-2003, 12:03 PM
PHG pretty much hit the nail on the head. This team simply MUST find a way to increase Season Ticket Sales. The White Sox are solely dependant on walk-up sales for big attendance. We have a season ticket base that hovers in between the 12,000-16,000 range. Which means last night we had a decent but not great walk up because we ended up with aprox 24,000. If our season ticket base was in the 20,000-22,000 range, we wouldn't have to worry about luring a ton of last minute pre sale and heavy discounted walk-up in September. There would have been 30,000 + at the park last night by default.

Another factor is the Cubs being in town. Most of the time, the Cubs are out of town when the Sox have a homestand or they are playing day games. Last night, they featured the ultra hyped up series versus the Cardinals. The casual fans and the fence sitters who "root" for both teams were at Wrigley or watching it on TV unfortunately. The rabid Sox fans were there, the problem is that there just isn't enough of us anymore.

Dan H
09-03-2003, 12:09 PM
The Mariotti column was just plain stupid. I totally agree with George. Just complaining about attendance will solve nothing. White Sox fans have been blasted for being disloyal for years now. Has it changed anything?

The Chicago sports media is like an old LP with a scratch. No writer can get off this track of blaming the fans. It shows no insight or imagination.

The Sox attendance problem has many causes. The media's and ownership's lack of understanding of the Sox fan is one big one.

The fan base has eroded. It can be rebuilt. The Sox actually have taken some positive steps in that rebuilding this year. But if the organization sits on its hands when this crap is being written, it will lose some of the effect of what it has done this year. (Improving the park, getting veterans for the stretch run.) I know one thing for certain: You won't win back people by bashing them.

LuvSox
09-03-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
Maybe nobody wanted to sit with a bunch of drunk cops and firemen

That was funny :D: :)

Foulke You
09-03-2003, 12:27 PM
I also find it annoying that Mariotti chose to rip on Sox fans after ONE (possibly two after today) lackluster crowd. Before last night's game against Boston, we were averaging over 30,000 fans a game and attendance overall is up from last year. The healing is only starting to begin.

Where was this article after 40,000+ showed up versus KC? He probably had it pre written earlier and was waiting for the first game we had under 25,000 to rip on our fans. He chose to ignore all socio-economic issues involving the fanbase and the neighborhoods. Why??? Isn't this a factor worth noting or does that make you have to do some unnecessary research Jay?

We are all expecting big crowds for the weekend series against Cleveland. What does this say about Sox fans? Perhaps that many of us have jobs and other weekday obligations that make it difficult for us to get to the games during the week but when we CAN go (weekends) or for big divisional games (KC, Minnesota) we show up! We shouldn't be made to feel guilty for not showing up for every game!! Heck, I see some folks on this thread feeling guilty for not going yesterday. STOP IT!! You are Sox fans and I'm sure you've gone to many games this year. Don't let media twerps like Mariotti push you around! Why should you feel guilty about being economically responsible or being responsible to your job or other obligations you might have had yesterday? You go to watch the Sox because you are a fan and you enjoy watching baseball not because you are required to go to "X" number of games to prove your loyalty to the team and give Jay Mariotti the 7,000 more fans he wants. I go to a ton of games because I happen to work in Chicago so it is easy for me to get to the games after work so I went yesterday and have gone to a lot of weekday games this year. What about someone who works at a factory in Des Plaines until 5:30PM? Or a restaurant in Orland Park until 6PM? How are they getting to the park by 7:05? They don't and they can't. But when there is a day off, they will go. The media needs to realize that the true Sox fans are there already, it is the casual fans that aren't coming. So stop ripping Sox fans!!!

Another factor Jay ignores is that while school being in session hurts the Sox, it HELPS the Cubs. Why? Because Loyola, DePaul, and Northwestern are all a stone's throw from Wrigley Field. And what do college kids like to do the most? Drink! Wrigley and its surrounding neighborhood provides that. What does Wrigleyville also have? A lot of well to do yuppies who live in $500,000 Lincoln Park condos and can go to as many weekday day games as they like without hurting their pocket book or work obligations. Am I saying that all Cub fans don't have normal jobs? Absoloutely not, but you have to take into account the huge amount of people in that neighborhood who are walking distance from the park and are in a higher tax bracket than the folks on the South Side. I'm sorry but what Jay wrote is just another lazy "where are all the Sox fans?" article that I've read hundreds of times before and doesn't shed any light on it whatsoever. It is just one of many backhanded slaps at Sox fans that the media takes.

captain54
09-03-2003, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Nope, the problem is far deeper than anything noted above. The problem is, after 22 years of Jerry Reinsdorf Sox ownership (and Cubune ownership of the Flubs), there simply aren't as many Sox Fans as there used to be.

I believe there is a big market for winning baseball in Chicago, just like there is for winning football, basketball, and hockey.


this topic has been discussed to death, but I suggest the media geniuses in this town read the posts on this board by PHG and others to be enlightened....

I think you hit the nail on the head, PHG.....the Sox are barking up the wrong tree by gearing all their marketing toward "hey come to the ballpark and have a good time"....the Flubs have that market cornered, despite a decrepit ballpark and a team with a history of losing....

In the 22 years of Reinsdorf's regime, they have not have ONE really truly dominating year where they have gone all the way and taken home the big prize.......sure, there was 83, 93, and 2000, and knocking on the door this year....but give me a year like the 85' Chicago Bears had and you would see that park explode with people....

Unfortunately, this is THE only recourse Reinsdorf has to build the fan base back up....either he is too stupid to realize it or too stubborn, and I suspect its the latter.....instead wasting time figuring cleaver marketing schemes or cosmetic ballpark improvements, I would concentrate all my efforts in constucting a ballclub that can play one full year of consistent winning baseball and then go to October with a full head of steam and for ONCE, have a Chicago baseball team bring home a World Series Championship.....

the Sox are competing with too many other ways people can spend their entertainment dollar in Chicago....there are hundreds of restaurants, clubs, bars...there are festivals, theatre, etc, plus once September hits, people turn their attention to the Bears....,not to mention another baseball team on the other side of town that can serve up "good time baseball, whether we win or lose"...

Dan H
09-03-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
George:

A brilliant two posts. I suggest you e-mail them to some of the columnists simply because they make a ton of sense and the issue is going to come up again.

Lip


Lip:

I agree George's posts are very good. But e-mail them to the columnists? What for? Do they really care about what we think on this issue? I doubt it.

By the way, I found your buddy Rapoport condescending.(We can go back to our lives now? I don't think I ever left my life.) And I truly don't believe he cared what we thought or got any new insight from the response. The issue will come up again. And it will get the same tired treatment from the media.

inta
09-03-2003, 01:30 PM
the backstreet boys have a lot of fans too.

thepaulbowski
09-03-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I also find it annoying that Mariotti chose to rip on Sox fans after ONE (possibly two after today) lackluster crowd. Before last night's game against Boston, we were averaging over 30,000 fans a game and attendance overall is up from last year. The healing is only starting to begin.

Where was this article after 40,000+ showed up versus KC? He probably had it pre written earlier and was waiting for the first game we had under 25,000 to rip on our fans. He chose to ignore all socio-economic issues involving the fanbase and the neighborhoods. Why??? Isn't this a factor worth noting or does that make you have to do some unnecessary research Jay?


I don't agree with Mariotti a lot of the times, but he's right.

Actually I believe there was an article he (or somebody in the Suntimes) wrote after the two Royals games about Sox fans showing life and coming to the ballpark. And this is not the first game that they has been below 25,000 in attendance. The Tuesday & Wednesday game against Anaheim. I believe the Thursday game against Texas, too. Socio-economic issues aside, many people who profess to be Sox fans, just don't go to the ballpark. Attendance figures from ESPN state that through 67 homes games avg. attendance is 23,069, Minnesota & KC average more, which is disgusting. It's time to admit that it takes more that what is going on to get Sox fans to the ballpark, that there is apathy amongst the fanbase. Sox fans complain about playing second fiddle to the Cubs, well thats what happens when it looks like a majority of your fans don't care.

While i'll buy into your socio-economic theory some, it doesn't fully explain the lack of people in the seats. It's called apathy, and many self-professed Sox fans have it.

kittle42
09-03-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Jerko
I was not calling you out, but I feel better now knowing it was work related. I hate to say, I've been roped into a few of those too! I do agree with being dismayed over the lack of attendance. I swore I heard somewhere that the lower deck was sold out for one of these Red Sox games. I guess my sources are slipping.

I personally don't see too much wrong with going to the Urinal a few times a year. I always sit in the RF bleachers decked out in Sox stuff with anti-Sammy signs and razzing. I almost always get stuff thrown at me and anger the frat boys and sorority girls out in the bleachers. One guy threw my hat on the field during an exciting interleague matchup against the Rays and got arrested. Plus, the Cubs are 0-2 in those two games I've been to there when they haven't played the Sox.

Nellie_Fox
09-03-2003, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
I personally don't see too much wrong with going to the Urinal a few times a year. I always sit in the RF bleachers decked out in Sox stuff with anti-Sammy signs and razzing. Cubs management doesn't care why you are there, just that you are. You help fill the seats for the cameras, you help fill their coffers. You help spread the word that Wrigley is the place to go to have fun in the sun.

Do what you want, but attending Cubs games at Wrigley, for whatever reasons, does nothing but help the Cubs image. Empty seats are far more harmful to the Cubs than someone waving an anti-Sosa sign.

Rocky Soprano
09-03-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox

Do what you want, but attending Cubs games at Wrigley, for whatever reasons, does nothing but help the Cubs image. Empty seats are far more harmful to the Cubs than someone waving an anti-Sosa sign.

Not when the tickets are paid for by a season ticket holder. If you dont go they dont care cause you already paid.

So I guess you think that you should only watch a game from Sox Park and no where else because all you are doing is supporting the other team?

:?:

Nellie_Fox
09-03-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
So I guess you think that you should only watch a game from Sox Park and no where else because all you are doing is supporting the other team?

:?: Other teams are not in direct competition with the White Sox for the Chicagoland baseball dollar. Helping to fill the seats at Wrigley plays right into the image the Cubs are selling; a ballpark full of people having fun.

Do what you want. I won't go to Wrigley for any reason.

LuvSox
09-03-2003, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Other teams are not in direct competition with the White Sox for the Chicagoland baseball dollar. Helping to fill the seats at Wrigley plays right into the image the Cubs are selling; a ballpark full of people having fun.

Do what you want. I won't go to Wrigley for any reason.

Amen.

Rocky Soprano
09-03-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Other teams are not in direct competition with the White Sox for the Chicagoland baseball dollar. Helping to fill the seats at Wrigley plays right into the image the Cubs are selling; a ballpark full of people having fun.

Do what you want. I won't go to Wrigley for any reason.

Yes everyone I supported the Cubs by buying a slice of pizza and a beer, Im sure with that revenue they are going to go out and buy a championship just like the Yankees. I guess that makes me a Cubs fan

PaleHoseGeorge
09-03-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Yes everyone I supported the Cubs by buying a slice of pizza and a beer, Im sure with that revenue they are going to go out and buy a championship just like the Yankees. I guess that makes me a Cubs fan

Look, I think your beef is less with Nellie and LuvSox than with posters like MandM and Viva. They are the ones who started this thread by chastising Sox Fans for not showing up at the Cell in the numbers that do the franchise proud. Along with Jay Mariotti, their view of the world is very much focused on how Sox attendance compares with the Cubs. Others like myself have held the fans posting here blameless because we are simply outnumbered by a wide margin by those who think enjoying the "entertainment" at the Urinal is just fine, perhaps even preferable, to watching a ballgame at the Cell.

If by your own admission you're enjoying the Urinal's entertainment, defend yourself from MandM and Viva (and Moronotti, too). They are the ones here pissing about people like you. It's only the ratio of Cell inhabitants to Urinal inhabitants that has them pissing.

kittle42
09-03-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Other teams are not in direct competition with the White Sox for the Chicagoland baseball dollar. Helping to fill the seats at Wrigley plays right into the image the Cubs are selling; a ballpark full of people having fun.

Do what you want. I won't go to Wrigley for any reason.

I suppose I am giving them money by going there, but to me it is fun to sit there any annoy the piss out of Cub fans. The Cubs, as was pointed out by another poster, never take that money and do anything with it anyway. They can have my beer money. I just went to the Cell for the 16th time this year last night, so I don't feel too bad about going to the Urinal once in a while, especially since it's four blocks from my apartment.

Rocky Soprano
09-03-2003, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Look, I think your beef is less with Nellie and LuvSox than with posters like MandM and Viva. They are the ones who started this thread by chastising Sox Fans for not showing up at the Cell in the numbers that do the franchise proud. Along with Jay Mariotti, their view of the world is very much focused on how Sox attendance compares with the Cubs. Others like myself have held the fans posting here blameless because we are simply outnumbered by a wide margin by those who think enjoying the "entertainment" at the Urinal is just fine, perhaps even preferable, to watching a ballgame at the Cell.

If by your own admission you're enjoying the Urinal's entertainment, defend yourself from MandM and Viva (and Moronotti, too). They are the ones here pissing about people like you. It's only the ratio of Cell inhabitants to Urinal inhabitants that has them pissing.

I dont have a beef with anyone here. I am not one to moan and cry about attendance. I do agree with the article up to a point. To me its a shame that we are not drawing better, yet I dont believe that the entire blame lands with the fans.

I NEVER said I enjoy going to the Urinal. I just dont like people calling me a Cub Fan for going or saying that I am helping support them. When I have gone I have always gone wearing my Sox gear. I guess when The Sox play there I shouldnt go and just watch from home.

The fans here are true fans and no one should be blaming anyone on here for the attendance problems.

LuvSox
09-03-2003, 04:38 PM
Ok, I'm going tonight. I'll mow the lawn at another time, who cares what the neighbors say. :D: Let's go SOX!!!!!!

FoulTerritory
09-03-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
We've covered this subject a million times, but it bears repeating now. The people who come here are not part of the problem. The average visitor to this board goes to far more games than the average fan. We tend to be rabid in our support of the Sox. The problem isn't that too few Sox Fans bother to show up for games either. This was a popular theory not too many years ago, especially in 2000 when Dave Wills and others were imploring Sox Fans to get behind a winning team.

Nope, the problem is far deeper than anything noted above. The problem is, after 22 years of Jerry Reinsdorf Sox ownership (and Cubune ownership of the Flubs), there simply aren't as many Sox Fans as there used to be. Or alternately, the rate of growth for the Sox Fan population has been far outstripped by the growth of casual fans that are all too willing to swallow the bald-faced lies and half-truths that they're serving on the North Side of town.

You can't fix this problem by complaining, especially on this message board. The Sox need to get their marketing plan fixed, starting with selling more season ticket packages and multi-game purchase plans. Nobody should be surprised--NOBODY-- that walk-up promotions (like the Pepsi half-price nights) lose their effectiveness once school starts. That promotion is specifically meant to appeal to the type of fan that simply doesn't go to too many games when it isn't convenient--such as cold weather or school night for the kids.

The Flubbies draw to the Urinal because EVERYTHING they do is geared towards generating ticket scarcity. The easist way to generate ticket scarcity is selling as many tickets as possible BEFORE the day of the game. And the easiest way to generate pre-game sales is to sell season ticket packages. Those folks from Iowa didn't just walk up for the Flubbie game.

The fact the Flubbies successfully sell "entertainment" at "Beaaaaa-utiful Wrigley Field" just underscores how disinterested their fanbase is in winning baseball. I believe there is a big market for winning baseball in Chicago, just like there is for winning football, basketball, and hockey. If the Sox would just get their act together (on and off the field), we could make some traction at the turnstiles. Of course the easiest way to improve their chances of succeeding (and helping build popularity for WINNING Chicago baseball) is for the Lovable Losers to keep losing. For most of the last century they have only considered winning a secondary consideration, and that is both the problem and the opportunity for the Sox marketing department to exploit.

Well said PHG. This is why I don't like Marrioti. He can only see the surface. Marriotis Brain: "Low attendance at Sox games = Sox fans don't comoe to park."

The lack of attendance has very little to do with SOX fans not attending. Every Sox fan I know has been to a ton of games this year. The problem, as you said, is that there simply aren't a lot of Sox fans (relatively speaking), and there aren't a lot of casual fans that even consider going to Sox games.

I teach college in Bloomington. I allow each of my students one free absense per semester to be used as they wish. Tuesday, I had 4 students in one class use their free absense to go to the Cub/Cards double header. When I became aware of this last thur, I asked the class if any had considered going to the Sox game that day instead, as they are in first place and playing a very good team. The 4 students committed to the cub/card double header looked at me as if they weren't even aware the Sox exist. It wasn't as if they were offended (I don't think any of them are big baseball fans), but it was as if it was strange I would even ask such a question. As if they're response was "huh? whatchya mean?"

Then I walked into my local subway, and had the sports section out, and the subway worker asks me: "are you a cards or a cubs fan?" I said, "I'm a sox fan", and he said, "huh?" I said, "you know . . . the white sox" and he said, "oh, ok, i got it"

Again, he wasn't offended or talking trash, just hadn't considered the fact that there is another team in the mix in this region . . .

THIS IS WHY WE DON'T GET MORE THAN 23,000 ON A TUE NIGHT! Non passionate baseball fans are often completely oblivious towards the Sox. Its almost as if, to these peolple, the sox are a team from a different city or something.

The perception must change, the marketing must improve. Sox fans are there, but this team has GOT to figure out how to make a name for themselves with the general casual person who just wants to go have a good time and socialize.

Or maybe we don't want these people at our park. I don't know.
However, losing out on the "everyman" revenue is hurting the team. I'm not sure we can survive on the mere modestly sized Sox fan-base.

Brad

ChiWhiteSox1337
09-03-2003, 05:40 PM
yeah, i noticed a lot of sox fans when i went to the series in TB and a game in detroit, although the outcome of the games were not good :( i've only been to 8 or so home games this year and 4 on the road but I'm only 15 and can only go when my sister is off (she's 18 so we try to go to half price games since it's cheaper) and when my dad is off, which is not very often. i was going to go to the game last night because my sister got off of work at the last moment but it was too late to order tickets on monday

ihatethecubs
09-03-2003, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
We've covered this subject a million times, but it bears repeating now. The people who come here are not part of the problem. The average visitor to this board goes to far more games than the average fan. We tend to be rabid in our support of the Sox. The problem isn't that too few Sox Fans bother to show up for games either. This was a popular theory not too many years ago, especially in 2000 when Dave Wills and others were imploring Sox Fans to get behind a winning team.

Nope, the problem is far deeper than anything noted above. The problem is, after 22 years of Jerry Reinsdorf Sox ownership (and Cubune ownership of the Flubs), there simply aren't as many Sox Fans as there used to be. Or alternately, the rate of growth for the Sox Fan population has been far outstripped by the growth of casual fans that are all too willing to swallow the bald-faced lies and half-truths that they're serving on the North Side of town.

You can't fix this problem by complaining, especially on this message board. The Sox need to get their marketing plan fixed, starting with selling more season ticket packages and multi-game purchase plans. Nobody should be surprised--NOBODY-- that walk-up promotions (like the Pepsi half-price nights) lose their effectiveness once school starts. That promotion is specifically meant to appeal to the type of fan that simply doesn't go to too many games when it isn't convenient--such as cold weather or school night for the kids.

The Flubbies draw to the Urinal because EVERYTHING they do is geared towards generating ticket scarcity. The easist way to generate ticket scarcity is selling as many tickets as possible BEFORE the day of the game. And the easiest way to generate pre-game sales is to sell season ticket packages. Those folks from Iowa didn't just walk up for the Flubbie game.

The fact the Flubbies successfully sell "entertainment" at "Beaaaaa-utiful Wrigley Field" just underscores how disinterested their fanbase is in winning baseball. I believe there is a big market for winning baseball in Chicago, just like there is for winning football, basketball, and hockey. If the Sox would just get their act together (on and off the field), we could make some traction at the turnstiles. Of course the easiest way to improve their chances of succeeding (and helping build popularity for WINNING Chicago baseball) is for the Lovable Losers to keep losing. For most of the last century they have only considered winning a secondary consideration, and that is both the problem and the opportunity for the Sox marketing department to exploit.

what he said. seriously, let's make this the last "come on sox fans we need to show this team out support!" post. it's so stupid and insulting to tell people who post here they need to get out to more games.

StillMissOzzie
09-04-2003, 01:42 AM
I wonder about those marketing surveys someone mentioned before. Is one of the choices "I'll never go back to a Sox game until Reinsdorf sells the team"? Not that I feel this way, mind you, but I've heard this opinion from others. They blame him for much of the labor struggles in recent years.

I get to 7-10 games a year, with a family of four. But, we also take in 4-6 Kane County Cougar games as well. Does this make me a traitor for not spending all of my baseball entertainment dollars at the Cell? I have great seats there for about 1/3 of the cost of MLB, many games have fireworks, & other minor league-type entertainment. But maybe most import, the people at a KCC game really make you feel welcome and appreciated, something I know the Sox have been working at but have a ways to go.

:gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
09-04-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
....I get to 7-10 games a year, with a family of four. But, we also take in 4-6 Kane County Cougar games as well. Does this make me a traitor for not spending all of my baseball entertainment dollars at the Cell?....

IMO, going to a minor league game makes you no more a traitor than going to the movie theater or taking your family out to dinner. It's an entirely different type of entertainment, especially the pricing.

The minor leagues are thriving specifically because MLB has made itself too expensive for many average fans to afford. That's why the Sox' efforts to make themselves family-friendly are likely to fail. Kane County, Schaumburg, and others are competing for the same fans at a better price.

Going to the Urinal to enjoy the "entertainment" is another story...

34 Inch Stick
09-04-2003, 08:42 AM
I have also heard enough of the I Hate Reinsdorf excuse for not going. You either love the Sox and attend in spite of Reinsdorf or you are not as much of a fan as you pretend to be. As an example, I hate Nestle for dumping non nutritous baby formula into Africa, yet I will still eat a crunch bar without it weighing on my consciensce.

thepaulbowski
09-04-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Dan H

The Sox attendance problem has many causes. The media's and ownership's lack of understanding of the Sox fan is one big one.


The media is one of the reasons Sox fans don't go to games? I don't buy into that, how so? Is it because of the media bias?

thepaulbowski
09-04-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Yes everyone I supported the Cubs by buying a slice of pizza and a beer, Im sure with that revenue they are going to go out and buy a championship just like the Yankees. I guess that makes me a Cubs fan

I think the real question is...why are you eating the food at Wrigley? It's horrible!!

:D:

Procol Harum
09-04-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The minor leagues are thriving specifically because MLB has made itself too expensive for many average fans to afford. That's why the Sox' efforts to make themselves family-friendly are likely to fail. Kane County, Schaumburg, and others are competing for the same fans at a better price.



And they're doing an outstanding job, too (I still marvel everytime I head in for a Sox game and see the Cougars' billboard on the eastbound Eisenhower touting family fun at reasonable prices--a direct jab at the [shrinking] Sox fan base in DuPage and Kane counties who are driving into the teeth of a series of traffic jams trying to get to the Sox game). It's a wonder that our owner/genius Jerry Reinsdorf doesn't pony up the $42,000 a year it would take to lure away the Cougars' marketing director and replace Gallas.

hose
09-04-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
IMO, going to a minor league game makes you no more a traitor than going to the movie theater or taking your family out to dinner. It's an entirely different type of entertainment, especially the pricing.

The minor leagues are thriving specifically because MLB has made itself too expensive for many average fans to afford. That's why the Sox' efforts to make themselves family-friendly are likely to fail. Kane County, Schaumburg, and others are competing for the same fans at a better price.

Going to the Urinal to enjoy the "entertainment" is another story...


I bought a ticket in Box 133 last night . I believe these seats would have been called VIP seats last year but now it doesn't mention VIP on the ticket stub. It could be the first 12 or so rows are still called VIP , not 100% sure. Anyway these $36 tickets are GREAT seats right behind the plate and your view of the batter is 100% free of any yellow shirted vendor obstructing it. These tickets are usually not sold till the day of the game because they are reserved for either players, wives , or whatever.

What looked like a company outing or some business group of 15 or so people in their low to mid 30's were in the section .
I have never seen so much money being spent on food , drink and novelties. Some of them had to be bringing home stuff for their kids , it was unreal. The host was walking up the aisle waiting hand and foot on these people, even taking cell phone calls from them.

The reason I'm bring this up is because if you look at the park one Reinsdorf's biggest mistake was the double deck luxury suites. Jerry had visions of sugar plums dancing in his eyes and filled luxury suites when the park was being built. Attracting companies to buy suites and season tickets is one area where the Sox have to improve on. Winning a World Championship would change everything.