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SouthBendSox
09-03-2003, 01:33 AM
from baseballprospectus...

Reality Check: Jerry Manuel has had nothing but good things to say about Roberto Alomar, and with the White Sox playing as well as they have, it's hard to blame him. But what sort of contribution has Alomar really made to the Second-Half Southsider Resurgence?
Not much with the stick. Alomar is almost exactly the same player that he was with the Mets: his power is gone, and while he still works the count and runs the bases well, his ability to leverage those attributes is minimized since he doesn't hit for a high enough batting average to post the OBPs that he used to. Here were Alomar's numbers through Labor Day weekend:



With White Sox (47 G) .265/.338/.351 (AVG/OBP/SLG)
With Mets (73 G) .262/.336/.357

The raw numbers are virtually identical; in fact, after adjusting for park and league effects, Alomar's offensive performance has been a wee bit weaker since he left the Mets. By comparison:



D'Angelo Jimenez
With Reds (48 G) .311/.384/.430 - .283 EqA

Though the Reds have used him in the #3 slot of late, Jimenez would qualify as one of the best leadoff hitters in baseball.

But Alomar wasn't just brought in for his bat--what of his defense? At first glance, it looks like a wash. Alomar has been good for a better fielding percentage than Jimenez, but his range factor and zone rating are lower. (Imperfect metrics, we know, but some of the biases are removed when we're comparing two guys that have had the same teammates and pitching staffs surrounding them).

How about turning the deuce, an area that Jimenez was notoriously weak at?



DPs per 9 defensive innings:
Jimenez 0.63
Alomar 0.59
Graffanino 0.89

Jimenez's figure was low. The White Sox pitching staff produces plenty of groundballs, so that's no excuse. Jimenez's defense is not an asset, but Alomar has been involved in even fewer double plays than Jimenez was. Roberto Alomar was once a great player; he isn't anymore.

Twins8791
09-03-2003, 06:04 AM
Hey, remember where you're posting! You can't use facts to challenge the conventional wisdom HERE!

faneidde
09-03-2003, 07:39 AM
Okay stat heads who continue to bash Robbie and praise D'Ang, here are a couple more stats (for D'Ang as a Sock):
1. Runs per game: Jiminez .479 Almoar .681
2. BB/K ratio: D'Ang .696 Robbie .789
3. Stolen Bases/Caught Stealings: Jiminez 5/4 Robbie 6/2
4. OBP (the most important lead-off stat): DJ .332 Robbie .341

Look, you can make the case statiscally that either player is better, but watching a game (what a novel concept) will tell you that Roberto is one of the finest second basemen in the league and D'Ang, although he had his moments, is not in the same category. Then of course there is the fact that Alomar is the one of the best defensive second basemen ever to play the game and Jiminez is a below average defender.

thepaulbowski
09-03-2003, 08:37 AM
Maybe Jiminez could come back and drop some more 2-out, bases loaded pop-outs for us. Boy that would be nice.

:o:

inta
09-03-2003, 09:43 AM
well, good for D'ang.
do i care?
nope.

maybe he's a better NL hitter than AL hitter, maybe he needed a change of scenery....
fact is he didn't do it in chicago. i'm happy with robbie.

fquaye149
09-03-2003, 10:42 AM
i've never seen robbie blow a pop fly, blackout on the basepaths, get in fights with teammates, have teammates from past teams say he's the laziest player in baseball, etc.

shane
09-03-2003, 10:58 AM
A couple of the DP balls that Robbie has snagged were outside of the normal 2nd base range and made for incredible double plays. I think the amount of DPs turned is much less relevant than when the DPs are turned. When the game is close and Robbie snags a ball 50 feet off of 2nd to start a DP, it's a meaningful play. Is your defense going to come through when you need them the most? If the ball is hit to RA, most likely, the defense will be there. He's also good to have in the clubhouse.

CubKiller
09-03-2003, 11:09 AM
I'm okay with RAlomar too.

And if the Sox do make the playoffs, there's no question who would be more valuable to the team...RAlomar by a landslide.

voodoochile
09-03-2003, 11:09 AM
Who do you think a ground ball pitcher like Garland wants behind him, Alomar or DJ?

Pitcher confidence has a lot to do with it. With Alomar behind them, they can just throw strikes and let the defense do its job.

Also, not quantifiable Alomar's veteral leadership. He never looks rattled or scared and he is right there in the thick of a bunch of Sox wins.

Oh, one other stat. The Sox acquired Alomar on 7/2. The Sox were 42-42 at that time. Now they are 73-65. No, it's not all because of Robbie, but maybe some of it is due to Manuel having confidence in his starting 2B and not tinkering as much.

JRIG
09-03-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Who do you think a ground ball pitcher like Garland wants behind him, Alomar or DJ?

Pitcher confidence has a lot to do with it. With Alomar behind them, they can just throw strikes and let the defense do its job.

Also, not quantifiable Alomar's veteral leadership. He never looks rattled or scared and he is right there in the thick of a bunch of Sox wins.

Oh, one other stat. The Sox acquired Alomar on 7/2. The Sox were 42-42 at that time. Now they are 73-65. No, it's not all because of Robbie, but maybe some of it is due to Manuel having confidence in his starting 2B and not tinkering as much.

Incredible how a player like Alomar has these "intangible" qualities with a team like the White Sox, who are winning, but was unable to use them with, say, the Mets, who absolutely sucked when he was there.

What, Alomar's "intangible powers" are rendered useless in New York? I guess his "veteran leadership" wasn't enough to pull his teammates up earlier this year, but now his powers have returned to full force.

voodoochile
09-03-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
Incredible how a player like Alomar has these "intangible" qualities with a team like the White Sox, who are winning, but was unable to use them with, say, the Mets, who absolutely sucked when he was there.

What, Alomar's "intangible powers" are rendered useless in New York? I guess his "veteran leadership" wasn't enough to pull his teammates up earlier this year, but now his powers have returned to full force.

Oh give me a break.

Two points. Leadership does depend on the team. The Sox had a void at leadership. I cannot speak for the Mets. In addition, the Mets expected to get the same player who played for the Tribe in the late 90's. He didn't deliver, the press got all over him and he got into a funk. That has all been pretty well talked over, so no point in rehashing it. The Sox wanted a leadoff hitter and a solid defender. That is what they got and as a result, Alomar is starting to shine again. It isn't that hard to figure out...

In addition, even if Robbie only leads by example with his on field awareness and play, DJ never even did that, so any leadership that Alomar brings is clearly more than the guy he replaced...

Honestly, this argument is so old and dried up it is ridiculous. I am done. I don't know why I responded in the first place. The Sox are winning with Robbie, they weren't with DJ. That is enough for me...

JRIG
09-03-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
...the Mets expected to get the same player who played for the Tribe in the late 90's. He didn't deliver, the press got all over him and he got into a funk. That has all been pretty well talked over, so no point in rehashing it. The Sox wanted a leadoff hitter and a solid defender. That is what they got and as a result, Alomar is starting to shine again.

Alomar "in a funk" with the Mets (playing in a pitcher's park)
02: .266 BA/.331 OBP/.376 SLG
03: .262 BA/.336 OBP/.357 SLG

Alomar "shining" with the Sox (playing in a hitter's park)
03: .266 BA/.341 OBP/.356 SLG

I respect you Voodoo, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. If you asked me if I'd rather have Alomar or Jimenez for the rest of the season after July 1, I'd have told you Alomar. But he has not been near the player many Sox fans think he has been since he arrived here. He's not playing any better than he did in New York.

My two main conerns are these: 1) It was foolish to let Jimenez go for next to nothing when he would have been an affordable, productive option at 2B next year and 2)KW will vastly overpay for Alomar now that has has no options, and stick us with another sinkhole contract like Koch's and Konerko's.

voodoochile
09-03-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Alomar "in a funk" with the Mets (playing in a pitcher's park)
02: .266 BA/.331 OBP/.376 SLG
03: .262 BA/.336 OBP/.357 SLG

Alomar "shining" with the Sox (playing in a hitter's park)
03: .266 BA/.341 OBP/.356 SLG

I respect you Voodoo, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. If you asked me if I'd rather have Alomar or Jimenez for the rest of the season after July 1, I'd have told you Alomar. But he has not been near the player many Sox fans think he has been since he arrived here. He's not playing any better than he did in New York.

My two main conerns are these: 1) It was foolish to let Jimenez go for next to nothing when he would have been an affordable, productive option at 2B next year and 2)KW will vastly overpay for Alomar now that has has no options, and stick us with another sinkhole contract like Koch's and Konerko's.

No worries on the arguing thing. A good fight always gets my blood going and keeps the board active. :D:

I'm not claiming Alomar is Godlike. I just think he brings a lot to the table that doesn't show up in the stat book. He always has a plan when he comes to the plate (something few enough Sox hitters have). He plays very solid defense and has helped make the up the middle defense that much stronger. He has knowledge of the hitters and game situations.

For me it is never just about the stats. I am not surprised his stats aren't much better with us than the Mets, but again, it comes down to what you expect/want from a player. Alomar has been fine as a leadoff hitter. I hope the Sox offer him a 2-3 year contract for $4-5M/year and keep him around for a while. I hope that is possible, but I don't know if Alomar will take it or not. I don't see KW signing Robbie to a huge money contract because he isn't worth it.

I think it would have been a good idea to keep DJ in the minors, but it didn't happen. I am not going to spend my time rehashing what could have happened. I am not that kind of fan...

Mammoo
09-03-2003, 12:27 PM
Gee, I wonder if we can get D'Ang. J. to come back and play for us?

Maybe if we beg him he will. Please Please Please!

What a crock of ****!!!

This is what is wrong with baseball. Instead of using common sense and trusting instincts, there are people who rely on statistics every time they are required to develop a thought.

We all know what we saw when the other guy was here. Do we want that or Alomar? I didn't watch RA when he was with the Mets; I've watched him since he arrived in Chicago. He's been a valuable addition.

Agreed, Alomar isn't the player he used to be; thanks for the Flash, Gordon!!!

Lip Man 1
09-03-2003, 12:33 PM
Next the "number freaks" and "fantasy gamers" will be showing us conclusive numerical proof that the earth is really flat!

Absolute BS.

As Charlie Brown said to Lucy..."tell your statistics to shut up!"

Lip

fquaye149
09-03-2003, 01:41 PM
by saying that dj is as good or better than robbie, you are showing an immense ignorance of the game of baseball.

Gumshoe
09-03-2003, 02:00 PM
Honestly, this argument is so old and dried up it is ridiculous. I am done. I don't know why I responded in the first place. The Sox are winning with Robbie, they weren't with DJ. That is enough for me...


First off, you guys all know I was a fan of DJ. He got really unfairly bad press here when EVERYONE was making errors, mentally, physically, etc. Also, know that I think Robbie Alomar is the best 2B I have ever seen and maybe the greatest to ever play the game.

RA is better than DJ defensively, but DJ is really very good. At this point in there careers, DJ is very dangerous and RA is dropping off (power aspect). The numbers and stats DJ has put up since joining the REDS show at the very least that I was right on about him in all my previous arguments. At very worst, the White Sox should have kept him for the future, because he is a really solid player.

Finally, referring to the quote above: I was at the games that week of the trade, EVERY ONE. We were just starting to pound MIN and everyone else PRE-TRADE. I think we would have gone on a big run regardless. Everett's bat has outweighed him as a liability in CF, but as long as he's making plays, fine. Everything has worked well, but I think even without the trades we'd be right there. That is not worth even talking about though. If they finish it out, I'll give KW credit. I like RA here, in fact I love him, because I believe he'll come up big in the playoffs (knocking on wood) but there is no way hell we should have ever given up DJ.

My thoughts,

Gumshoe

MisterB
09-03-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
RA is better than DJ defensively, but DJ is really very good. At this point in there careers, DJ is very dangerous and RA is dropping off (power aspect). The numbers and stats DJ has put up since joining the REDS show at the very least that I was right on about him in all my previous arguments. At very worst, the White Sox should have kept him for the future, because he is a really solid player.

Not quite. What the stats show is that Jimenez has put up solid numbers , not that he's a solid player . Watching his first half performance we saw that, on a team with a lot of bad fundamental players, he had the worst fundamentals of all. If he was really a solid player, there's no way so many of us would have been calling for his head. I know we're not experts here (yourself included, I assume), but a response that overwhelming must have a kernel of truth at the core.

As for his performance so far with the Reds, all I can say is DJ looked good last year after coming over from the Padres, but his flaws showed up eventually. It would not surprise me to see the same thing happen with the Reds next year.

kermittheefrog
09-03-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Next the "number freaks" and "fantasy gamers" will be showing us conclusive numerical proof that the earth is really flat!

Absolute BS.

As Charlie Brown said to Lucy..."tell your statistics to shut up!"

Lip

Damn right! We don't need empirical evidence when we can just throw out guesses and go by our gut feelings! I hate researching things! The scientific method is a bunch of crap elitist intellectuals came up with!

RichH55
09-03-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Next the "number freaks" and "fantasy gamers" will be showing us conclusive numerical proof that the earth is really flat!

Absolute BS.

As Charlie Brown said to Lucy..."tell your statistics to shut up!"

Lip

Plus Lip....we know those numbers could never justify what we all know...that the Sox are out to lose just to spite you...those bastards!

RichH55
09-03-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
by saying that dj is as good or better than robbie, you are showing an immense ignorance of the game of baseball.

The point doesnt necessarily have to be that DJ is as good or better as Robbie, just perhaps that Robbie isnt a great as we are all making him out to be.....3 years at 4 million per sounds about right to me(but do put me in the group happy to have Robbie)

MarkEdward
09-03-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
by saying that dj is as good or better than robbie, you are showing an immense ignorance of the game of baseball.

Yeah, statistics are just so gay, right?

Bitter at JCU.

Gumshoe
09-03-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Not quite. What the stats show is that Jimenez has put up solid numbers , not that he's a solid player . Watching his first half performance we saw that, on a team with a lot of bad fundamental players, he had the worst fundamentals of all. If he was really a solid player, there's no way so many of us would have been calling for his head. I know we're not experts here (yourself included, I assume), but a response that overwhelming must have a kernel of truth at the core.

As for his performance so far with the Reds, all I can say is DJ looked good last year after coming over from the Padres, but his flaws showed up eventually. It would not surprise me to see the same thing happen with the Reds next year.

Mister B, allow me to say a few things. With regard to the "no way so many of us would have called for his head" -- you've got to be kidding. So many people were frustrated with a losing team that was not hitting early ... and they blamed a GREAT amount of it on DJ. He came up with HUGE hits, big homers, doubles that contributed to our few wins in the early season. The problem was, no one saw how important those were because we were under .500, and nothing could have seemed good then. I can think of countless guys that got bad press by WSI (Jose? We all know he is the shortstop). It's crazy.

DJ had his faults, but they are no different than those of a guy like Carl Everett right now who hits but is a liability in CF ---> I'm glad he makes some plays now, don't get me wrong. But if we started this year with CE in CF and lost like we did, they would have been calling for his head like MADMEN. It's amazing what winning does to mentality. I maintain that without the trades we still could have won the division, but that doesn't matter. My main point always was to just KEEP DJ ON THE ROSTER>

Gumshoe