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View Full Version : Is it time to hope for failure and a new manager?


captain54
08-30-2003, 12:51 PM
I want to see the Sox in the postseason as much as anyone, but my fear is that if the Sox squeak in and then don't make it very far, we will be subjected to another year of Jerry Manuel manning the ship....

the Sox were fortunate to be in the thick of things because of a weak division, but who knows how weak it will be next year?? and with Manuel still around...?? I can't take another year of coming on this board and viewing post after post of "Manuel Sucks" , "Fire Manuel".....

bottom line is the Sox are one hitting slump away from being out of it this year, and if that happens, it will confirm my suspicion that this team was constructed pre-2000 to be a home run banging team, and when it does, Manuel looks like a genius....when it doesn't hit, he pretty much is exposed for what he is....a "by the book" skipper who loves the percentages and has no real instinctive flair or feel for the game...

so as much as I would like to be able to see the Sox playing in October, the price would be high.....another year of tinkering, confusion, and clubhouse desent, followed by periodic hitting slumps where the manager if exposed for what he is....

Jurr
08-30-2003, 01:02 PM
Yeah...Jerry Manuel is the cause of a hitting slump. This quote is obviously for you.


"I know I took a lot of beat up, and probably still will, but those people don't understand baseball and what we are trying to accomplish," Manuel said. "I don't have a problem with the criticism. My job is to make sure my pitchers get ready and are ready perform when they get on the mound.

"I've been watching (Buehrle) for five years. I know when he has periods where he's going to be sharp, know what happens when he has those periods where he really extends himself and gets pumped and into a game and know the times when he has 100 pitches in six innings.

"That ain't Mark Buehrle," Manuel added. "He's going through something right now, just like every pitcher who has answered the bell all year. But he will be fine."

LASOXFAN
08-30-2003, 01:02 PM
Let me get this straight: we go on the road, take 2 of 3 from the Yankees but lose to the Tigers on a night when Buehrle validates JM's concerns that he's "not right" - ONE GAME MIND YOU - and you're ready to tank the season for a new manager. Oh, and we're still in first place.

GET A FREAKIN' CLUE

Jurr
08-30-2003, 01:06 PM
exactly....I know that Sox fans are some of the most knowledgable fans in baseball, and I'm damn proud to have been one my entire life, but this past week has made me sick. I hope that we win the World Series and JM is praised heavily, so you all will eat crow.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2003, 01:09 PM
I am not going to jump down the Captain's throat because the question has been asked on other threads here at WSI. Obviously other fans feel the same way.

I can't agree simply because the Sox missing the playoffs this season in my opinion, does NOT guarantee that he's gone.

He still has one year remaining on a contract and the club owner is the chairman of the committee to advance minorities in baseball. Those two reasons alone don't promise anything.

I think there is a chance that if the Sox don't make the post season that he'll be fired but at the same time the owner might say "but look how well they played since the Twins / Cubs series in June" and keep him around.

Like with everything else about this organization you have to be prepared for the unexpected. The Sox unfortunately don't do things at all times based on logic. Many times pettiness, ego, greed and vindictiveness come into play.

Lip

LASOXFAN
08-30-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
exactly....I know that Sox fans are some of the most knowledgable fans in baseball, and I'm damn proud to have been one my entire life, but this past week has made me sick. I hope that we win the World Series and JM is praised heavily, so you all will eat crow.

I'm with you. I'll bash Jerry for bad decisions when I see them. In fact, I wish he weren't the manager. But you'd think 90% of the posters on this site had full access to the dugout and clubhouse and showers. They blame him for everything from an error in the field to fungus on shower shoes. As you know, "You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob."

HawkDJ
08-30-2003, 01:30 PM
I thought the reason everyone was mad at Cotts starting vs the Yankees was that we had to win now and we couldn't look into the future, even if Buehrle may have had some tightness. But now you want to throw the whole season so our manager can be fired in the future? Doesn't make much sense to me.

voodoochile
08-30-2003, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
Yeah...Jerry Manuel is the cause of a hitting slump. This quote is obviously for you.


"I know I took a lot of beat up, and probably still will, but those people don't understand baseball and what we are trying to accomplish," Manuel said. "I don't have a problem with the criticism. My job is to make sure my pitchers get ready and are ready perform when they get on the mound.

"I've been watching (Buehrle) for five years. I know when he has periods where he's going to be sharp, know what happens when he has those periods where he really extends himself and gets pumped and into a game and know the times when he has 100 pitches in six innings.

"That ain't Mark Buehrle," Manuel added. "He's going through something right now, just like every pitcher who has answered the bell all year. But he will be fine."

Did you read the quote from Mark Buehrle where he thought he was fine in the warmup phase - hitting his spots, good life on his pitches - but then couldn't get it right when he was on the mound?

Buehrle appeared to be over-throwing last night early on. That meant his fastballs and changeup were up and his breaking balls were breaking hard out of the zone which leads to him giving up walks and getting drilled.

More pure speculation - could his overthrowing have been a result of too much rest? Maybe he was just really mad at Jerry and was letting it out on the mound.


No, I don't want the Sox to lose just to get rid of him. I hope that KW and JR have finally realized the obvious truth about Jerry - that he is obviously over his head when it comes to managing a professional baseball team.

TornLabrum
08-30-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ
I thought the reason everyone was mad at Cotts starting vs the Yankees was that we had to win now and we couldn't look into the future, even if Buehrle may have had some tightness. But now you want to throw the whole season so our manager can be fired in the future? Doesn't make much sense to me.

As far as I know, no one has indicated that Buehrle has had any tightness at all except after warming up in the bullpen in his start against the Rangers. Please show me any report anywhere that states otherwise.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-30-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

...I can't agree simply because the Sox missing the playoffs this season in my opinion, does NOT guarantee that he's gone.

He still has one year remaining on a contract and the club owner is the chairman of the committee to advance minorities in baseball. Those two reasons alone don't promise anything.

I think there is a chance that if the Sox don't make the post season that he'll be fired but at the same time the owner might say "but look how well they played since the Twins / Cubs series in June" and keep him around....

I can't predict the future, but I'm going to take my best-guess on this topic.

Manuel will be reassigned to another position THE DAY AFTER the Sox are eliminated in 2003. It may come in October, or it may come sooner. But Reinsdorf and Williams have already made up their mind. I base this on two incidences this week:

1.) Hawk (the unofficial "Oracle of Reinsdorphi") ripping Manuel a new one on several occasions this week, while also declaring Williams the team's MVP for 2003, and

2.) Manuel's comments in this morning's paper holding himself blameless for the controversy and suggesting nobody else knows the game of baseball as well as he does.

He's a gone goose. Anything short of a Sox world championship--and I do mean a WORLD championship--and Manuel is bounced on his ear the very next day.

I'm also predicting Manuel will be given some sort of meaningless "special assignment to the chairman" position just to save face--probably in charge of scouting prospects around the block of his retirement home in Sacramento.

Not even Reinsdorf is fool enough to keep this numbskull around. JR understands money, and Manuel is COSTING him money right now.

I won't be shedding any tears.

idseer
08-30-2003, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge




Not even Reinsdorf is fool enough to keep this numbskull around. JR understands money, and Manuel is COSTING him money right now.




i was with you all the way until you made this statement.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-30-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i was with you all the way until you made this statement.

Well, it's just an opinion.

:)

MarqSox
08-30-2003, 02:59 PM
This is a stupid thread.

The whole point of wanting a different manager is so the team can succeed. But you would rather forgo success to get that new manager. Seems to me, if the manager actually does succeed, then the "problem" itself is solved.

Hello ... :?:

captain54
08-30-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Let me get this straight: we go on the road, take 2 of 3 from the Yankees but lose to the Tigers on a night when Buehrle validates JM's concerns that he's "not right" - ONE GAME MIND YOU - and you're ready to tank the season for a new manager. Oh, and we're still in first place.

GET A FREAKIN' CLUE


I don't know how long you have been following the Sox under Jerry Manuel, but I have from day 1......

any periods of success the Sox have had under his regime has been as a result of a periodic power surge and hitting barrage that has had the Sox playing well DESPITE the manager..

going back to the rebuilding in 98 and 99, this club has been built on banging the hell out of the ball...any knowledgeable baseball person knows that hitting comes and goes....you live by the sword and die by the sword....when the Sox tanked in the playoffs in 2000, the hitting dropped off dramatically and in classic form, the magic fairy dust that got sprinkled on the "manager of the year" wasn't there and all that was left was a mediocre baseball skipper without a clue as to how to right the ship....

oh and by the way, technically the Sox are not in first place, by virtue of games played and losses they are slight percentages points behind, with Minnesota breathing down our necks....

with the club we have and all the injuries to the other two contenders we should NEVER have been in this position....I would agree that anything short of a World Series title and Manuel is launched....

but if the thought of Jerry being launched brings a tear to your eye, I feel very, very sorry for you my friend.....

captain54
08-30-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
This is a stupid thread.

The whole point of wanting a different manager is so the team can succeed. But you would rather forgo success to get that new manager. Seems to me, if the manager actually does succeed, then the "problem" itself is solved.

Hello ... :?:


oh, forgive me great sage for insulting your intelligence with this stupid thread....

so if the Sox squeak into the playoffs, go three and out like they did in 2000, Manuel's job is saved, and we have to endure the same bunch of crap in 2004, in your mind, this is "success"??

MarqSox
08-30-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by captain54
oh, forgive me great sage for insulting your intelligence with this stupid thread....

so if the Sox squeak into the playoffs, go three and out like they did in 2000, Manuel's job is saved, and we have to endure the same bunch of crap in 2004, in your mind, this is "success"??
No. But it's absolutely asinine to HOPE for failure. I can just see it now: The Sox win the World Series, and someone creates a thread that says "Oh great, this means another year with Manuel." It's like, way to miss the point.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-30-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
This is a stupid thread.

The whole point of wanting a different manager is so the team can succeed. But you would rather forgo success to get that new manager. Seems to me, if the manager actually does succeed, then the "problem" itself is solved.

Hello ... :?:

Just to clarify my position, I am fully behind the ballplayers of the Chicago White Sox. They are --by far-- the most talented group of athletes in the A.L. Central and very deserving of the division crown. I still believe in them and I feel their talent is more than enough to overcome whatever obstacles lie in our path to achieving that goal.

I also believe the biggest obstacle to these talented ballplayers are distractions from what ought to be their sole focus right now: winning the division. The biggest creator of those distractions is our manager, Jerry Manuel. He's a gone goose and he will be fired at the first opportunity.

Having said that, this team needs to just play ball and let their superior talent shine through. I believe they will win it because they are that damned good. I believe in them.

So again, as I've been stating for a couple weeks now, my best advice to all of them is this:

Ignore this man ---------------> :jerry

He'll be gone soon enough.

idseer
08-30-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
No. But it's absolutely asinine to HOPE for failure. I can just see it now: The Sox win the World Series, and someone creates a thread that says "Oh great, this means another year with Manuel." It's like, way to miss the point.

i don't think it's all that absurd to suggest failing and being rid of jm is a good thing. manuel 'appeared' to succeed in '00 and consequently we still have this bozo in '03. if the team wins the division i'm not convinced jm will be let go. if one felt losing now would be best for the team in the long run at least there's a certain logic to it.

that being said ... i'd rather have a winner now and pray that jm is fired anyway.
you never know when we'll be back.
we could possibly lose half our starters when all is said and done for next year. even with a 'decent' manager next season we may not have the horses to contend.

MarqSox
08-30-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i don't think it's all that absurd to suggest failing and being rid of jm is a good thing. manuel 'appeared' to succeed in '00 and consequently we still have this bozo in '03. if the team wins the division i'm not convinced jm will be let go. if one felt losing now would be best for the team in the long run at least there's a certain logic to it.

that being said ... i'd rather have a winner now and pray that jm is fired anyway.
you never know when we'll be back.
we could possibly lose half our starters when all is said and done for next year. even with a 'decent' manager next season we may not have the horses to contend.
That's all I'm saying. You win now and hope for the best later. If we win the Series under JM, it would be tough to argue that another manager would have done better, since the Series is the ultimate goal anyway.

LASOXFAN
08-30-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by captain54
I don't know how long you have been following the Sox under Jerry Manuel, but I have from day 1......

any periods of success the Sox have had under his regime has been as a result of a periodic power surge and hitting barrage that has had the Sox playing well DESPITE the manager..

going back to the rebuilding in 98 and 99, this club has been built on banging the hell out of the ball...any knowledgeable baseball person knows that hitting comes and goes....you live by the sword and die by the sword....when the Sox tanked in the playoffs in 2000, the hitting dropped off dramatically and in classic form, the magic fairy dust that got sprinkled on the "manager of the year" wasn't there and all that was left was a mediocre baseball skipper without a clue as to how to right the ship....

oh and by the way, technically the Sox are not in first place, by virtue of games played and losses they are slight percentages points behind, with Minnesota breathing down our necks....

with the club we have and all the injuries to the other two contenders we should NEVER have been in this position....I would agree that anything short of a World Series title and Manuel is launched....

but if the thought of Jerry being launched brings a tear to your eye, I feel very, very sorry for you my friend.....

You derived that out of my post? A man who still has Royce Clayton listed as his favorite current player? Umm...okay. You win. Let's cheer for them to lose so Manuel gets fired. I'm with you baby. Let's do it. GO TIGERS! WOOOO!

Lip Man 1
08-30-2003, 09:43 PM
PHG:

I hope that you're right and you make a solid argument (as always) but you know Uncle Jerry as well as I do and with him nothing is guaranteed except maybe that he always finds a way to shock Sox fans every few years.

Lip

Bisco Stu
08-30-2003, 10:00 PM
If the Sox go 3 and out, JM should be fired and replaced with Wally Backman.

If the Sox win a playoff series for the first time since 1917, JM gets his job back with no extension.

If the Sox win the pennant, he gets a 3 year extension, just for doing it.

If the Sox win it all, he gets a 5 year extension and a weekend with Britney and Madonna.

If JM can do what no manager has done in 86 years, than he should be kept. Otherwise, get rid of him.

Paulwny
08-30-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Bisco Stu


If the Sox win it all, he gets a 5 year extension and a weekend with Britney and Madonna.

If JM can do what no manager has done in 86 years, than he should be kept. .


At my age, if this team would ever win the ws I would proclaim JM as the greatest manager in white sox history, that's how desperate I am. Please GOD let it happen before I go to hell.

Daver
08-30-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Please GOD let it happen before I go to hell.

Well Paul,the bad news is I think Sox fans don't make it to hell,they get stuck in purgatory..........

Paulwny
08-30-2003, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Well Paul,the bad news is I think Sox fans don't make it to hell,they get stuck in purgatory..........

You know, I always thought that when I died , I always pictured mysellf in LA and Sherm Lollar being thrown out at home plate and that SOB, Larry Sherry shutting us out .

My only happiness is that I saw the sox in a ws. This is something you and future sox fans may never see. IT WAS SPECIAL, ESPECIALLY WHEN ALL YOUR FRIENDS WERE YANKEE, IN YOUR CASE CUB, FANS.

Paulwny
08-30-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
IT WAS SPECIAL, ESPECIALLY WHEN ALL YOUR FRIENDS WERE YANKEE, IN YOUR CASE CUB, FANS.

Sorry if I came across as harsh with the above statement. It's hard to describe the feeling just to see the sox go to the ws., knowing you beat the best team in baseball, the damn yanks, to win the pennant and go to the ws. I hope one day each and everyone of you feels what I felt in 1959.

GOD THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO !!!!!!

TheRockinMT
08-30-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
I'm with you. I'll bash Jerry for bad decisions when I see them. In fact, I wish he weren't the manager. But you'd think 90% of the posters on this site had full access to the dugout and clubhouse and showers. They blame him for everything from an error in the field to fungus on shower shoes. As you know, "You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes.

THE SOX SUFFER FROM FUNGUS ON THEIR SHOWER SHOES? DAMN THAT JERRY MANUEL FOR IT IS ALL HIS FAULT!

Seriously, we do tend to blame poor JM for just about every problem that happens to the Sox. I think his managerial decisions are suspect on occassion, but aside from not handling the pitching staff real well I think he has done pretty decent. Hopefully he and the Sox will get the chance to show all the non-believers how to win a world series.

TornLabrum
08-31-2003, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Well Paul,the bad news is I think Sox fans don't make it to hell,they get stuck in purgatory..........

Hmmm...now there is a thought. We're all actually dead people and this is purgatory. It's all beginning to make sense to me.

Paulwny
08-31-2003, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Hmmm...now there is a thought. We're all actually dead people and this is purgatory. It's all beginning to make sense to me.

OH NO, OH NO, I didn't give a damn about winning the series in 59 , beating the yanks was glory, all the press, accolades about Fox and Aparacio, it was heaven .
With the 3 divisions it's different , back then it was one division, ws was a toss up, beating the devil in ny was utopia. The only time I ever believed there was just god.

TornLabrum
08-31-2003, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
OH NO, OH NO, I didn't give a damn about winning the series in 59 , beating the yanks was glory, all the press, accolades about Fox and Aparacio, it was heaven .
With the 3 divisions it's different , back then it was one division, ws was a toss up, beating the devil in ny was utopia. The only time I ever believed there was just god.

Don Gutteridge waving Sherm Lollar home. Larry Sherry pitching like he sold his soul to Satan. That was misery. Especially after that first game where it actually looked like we might score some runs for a change.

Then Veeck trading away Callison, Cash, Romano, and Battey for a bucket of batting practice balls (AKA Gene Freese), Roy Sievers, and Minnie Minoso's corpse.

Grace Comiskey giving the majority of stock to daughter Dorothy expressly against Lou Comiskey's will, Dorothy selling her stock to Veeck out of spite.

The agony of the Allyns, the poverty of the second Veeck years.

The idiocy of the Einsdorf/Reinhorn era.

This ain't purgatory. It's HELL!

Daver
08-31-2003, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


This ain't purgatory. It's HELL!

To be a Sox fan free's a man from any other pennance.



Just win Baby.

voodoochile
08-31-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Just win Baby.

You forgot me------------->:bandance:

Paulwny
08-31-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Don Gutteridge waving Sherm Lollar home. Larry Sherry pitching like he sold his soul to Satan. That was misery. Especially after that first game where it actually looked like we might score some runs for a change.



I mentioned all of this in a previous post. Sherry is the beginning of the sox facing an "unknown" pitcher and failing. You'll see, if the sox ever make it to the ws the outcome will not be as important as being there. Just being there is the glory.
I've seen that glory, now I want the big ring !!!

captain54
08-31-2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
You derived that out of my post? A man who still has Royce Clayton listed as his favorite current player?

Umm....that was a joke...see Clayton sucks, so it was supposed to be funny to kind of list him as your current favorite..you know, just to be funny.....uh,....oh, never mind.....

Actually, your right....it does sound stupid...I apologize...I will immediately change it to my new favorite player...everyone's favorite Yankee killer....Neal Cotts

MarqSox
08-31-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by captain54
Umm....that was a joke...see Clayton sucks, so it was supposed to be funny to kind of list him as your current favorite..you know, just to be funny.....uh,....oh, never mind.....

Actually, your right....it does sound stupid...I apologize...I will immediately change it to my new favorite player...everyone's favorite Yankee killer....Neal Cotts
You know ... you are allowed to actually LIKE the Sox ...

TornLabrum
08-31-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I mentioned all of this in a previous post. Sherry is the beginning of the sox facing an "unknown" pitcher and failing. You'll see, if the sox ever make it to the ws the outcome will not be as important as being there. Just being there is the glory.
I've seen that glory, now I want the big ring !!!

I don't think just getting there will be enough for the diehards around these parts (with a few exceptions among the Optimists who will think the Sox might actually be able to repeat once the make it that far).

Nick@Nite
08-31-2003, 11:30 AM
I never hope for failure... and I'm not implying any of that "hope springs eternal" cubs crap either. I'm always pulling for the Sox, regardless of who's managing them.

JM would be better off managing a roster of yessir & nossir kids, instead of the current veteran group... but I never hope for failure due to a lack of managerial leadership.