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Fridaythe13thJason
08-29-2003, 02:36 AM
Ya know...I rarely have anything too great to contribute on the White Sox board because I live far away and I don't have the baseball experience that some of you do.

I do know one thing, however: many of you are out of hand. I come to the board today after a series win over the Yanks at NY and all I see is negativity.

Was it dumb to push back Buehrle? Yes. Was is the worst thing that has ever happened in baseball history? You might think so by reading this board.

I was just going to put this post in the topic about Manuel, but there are at least 8, so I can't decide which.

Can people just enjoy some of this winning, and a dominating series win, first place and move on from there? You can say all you want that the team is winning in spite of the manager, but if you talk to any baseball person you will realize that that just doesn't ever happen.

Have some fun, for God's sake.

SoxxoS
08-29-2003, 02:37 AM
Preach on, SoCal.

CLR01
08-29-2003, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Ya know...I rarely have anything too great to contribute on the White Sox board because I live far away and I don't have the baseball experience that some of you do.

I do know one thing, however: many of you are out of hand. I come to the board today after a series win over the Yanks at NY and all I see is negativity.

Was it dumb to push back Buehrle? Yes. Was is the worst thing that has ever happened in baseball history? You might think so by reading this board.

I was just going to put this post in the topic about Manuel, but there are at least 8, so I can't decide which.

Can people just enjoy some of this winning, and a dominating series win, first place and move on from there? You can say all you want that the team is winning in spite of the manager, but if you talk to any baseball person you will realize that that just doesn't ever happen.

Have some fun, for God's sake.


Put down your crack pipe brother. The negativity is our god given right as white sox fans. Everyone knows JM is the reason why Kenndy was shot, 2 buildings in NY are missing and the sox won a series against the yankees in New York. We are tired of it and damnit we are not going to stand for it anymore. Fire his ass and lets hang him from the top of the sears tower as a warning to all future managers of the white sox.

pudge
08-29-2003, 03:37 AM
This is a message board with passionate White Sox fans, so I don't really know what you expect.

Beside that, this happens to be JM's most controversial decision BY FAR, discussed on national networks, and as I watched the YES broadcast today on Directv, even they were stunned at the decision. It's all good if Buehrle wins tomorrow, but what if we win 13-2? Then we wasted a good outing by Buehrle in a game we could have won with Cotts/Wright. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens on Friday. And if we lose this division by one game, can you even imagine what this board will be like......?

captain54
08-29-2003, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC

I do know one thing, however: many of you are out of hand. I come to the board today after a series win over the Yanks at NY and all I see is negativity.

Have some fun, for God's sake.

You, like Jerry Manuel, see a series win over the Yankees and want to hoist a World Series flag at 35th and Shields....

I, and probably most other dedicated Sox fans on this board, see a lost game in the standings when every game counts with only 30 to play....

please keep in mind we havent won a damn thing yet....I'll start having some fun when the Sox win their first playoff game at home since 1959, and then continue to kick ass in the playoffs enroute to a World series Title....

for a manager to settle for a series win when a sweep was well within his grasp is total idiotic....and you can't understand why everyone is negative....

I'm sorry you have such low standards.....

jeremyb1
08-29-2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by pudge
This is a message board with passionate White Sox fans, so I don't really know what you expect.

Beside that, this happens to be JM's most controversial decision BY FAR, discussed on national networks, and as I watched the YES broadcast today on Directv, even they were stunned at the decision. It's all good if Buehrle wins tomorrow, but what if we win 13-2? Then we wasted a good outing by Buehrle in a game we could have won with Cotts/Wright. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens on Friday. And if we lose this division by one game, can you even imagine what this board will be like......?

Why can't anyone mention that this was a decision predicated almost entirely on health issues? I think that is the most important thing to discuss if this is going to be debated not some inconsequential detail. Although I'm sure most will argue it, Manuel didn't just wake up one morning and say "you know I would like to see the rook with the control problem instead of my 19 game winner". He had his reasons and its completely unfair to disagree with him if you won't even acknowledge they exist.

jeremyb1
08-29-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by captain54
You, like Jerry Manuel, see a series win over the Yankees and want to hoist a World Series flag at 35th and Shields....

I, and probably most other dedicated Sox fans on this board, see a lost game in the standings when every game counts with only 30 to play....

please keep in mind we havent won a damn thing yet....I'll start having some fun when the Sox win their first playoff game at home since 1959, and then continue to kick ass in the playoffs enroute to a World series Title....

for a manager to settle for a series win when a sweep was well within his grasp is total idiotic....and you can't understand why everyone is negative....

I'm sorry you have such low standards.....

I ussually stop following the club after we lose our first game. Maybe I'll turn it on if we win two of the first three games in the world series. Also, I'd love the explanation of how yesterday's game replaced a win and not another loss. If Cotts can't find the strike zone how does he win against Detroit today (or Sunday)? Do they just bow down to the mighty White Sox and leave it at that?

Jurr
08-29-2003, 08:27 AM
"I could have done the same thing [as Cotts], if not worse. That's behind us. We just have to go to Detroit and take care of business there."

Hokiesox
08-29-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by pudge
This is a message board with passionate White Sox fans, so I don't really know what you expect.

Beside that, this happens to be JM's most controversial decision BY FAR, discussed on national networks, and as I watched the YES broadcast today on Directv, even they were stunned at the decision. It's all good if Buehrle wins tomorrow, but what if we win 13-2? Then we wasted a good outing by Buehrle in a game we could have won with Cotts/Wright. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens on Friday. And if we lose this division by one game, can you even imagine what this board will be like......?


If we lose by one game, it's the season opening series' fault. Taking 2 of 3 from the bombers in NY is a great feat, and a one game loss won't go back to a series in NY, it goes back to being swept by the royals to start the season. Did everyone forget that? Even if the Twins win the division, it still goes back to being swept in March/April. You can't convince me otherwise. Yes, I would have liked to see burly-mon yesterday, but this one loss does not lose the season.

Oh, one more thing:

:firejerry

steff
08-29-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by pudge
And if we lose this division by one game, can you even imagine what this board will be like......?


If we loose the division by 1 game we should take a look at the first 2 weeks of the season when this team crapped itself everytime they took the field.

34 Inch Stick
08-29-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I ussually stop following the club after we lose our first game. Maybe I'll turn it on if we win two of the first three games in the world series. Also, I'd love the explanation of how yesterday's game replaced a win and not another loss. If Cotts can't find the strike zone how does he win against Detroit today (or Sunday)? Do they just bow down to the mighty White Sox and leave it at that?

Given the same performance excpet against the Tigers instead of the Yankees, I would still feel very comfortable coming out of the 1st inning down 5-2. I commend the Sox for battling yesterday but did you really expect them to come back from that deficit.

No matter what Cotts would have done against Detroit WE WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN OUT OF THE GAME. It's also preety clear that Buhrle would have kept us in the Yankee game. Buhrle gave you the opportunity to go 2-0. Cotts almost assured you of going 1-1.

None of this is hindsight as I expressed these opinions when Cotts was originally announced as the starter.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Why can't anyone mention that this was a decision predicated almost entirely on health issues? I think that is the most important thing to discuss if this is going to be debated not some inconsequential detail. Although I'm sure most will argue it, Manuel didn't just wake up one morning and say "you know I would like to see the rook with the control problem instead of my 19 game winner". He had his reasons and its completely unfair to disagree with him if you won't even acknowledge they exist.

jeremy, put down the crack pipe. Wishing and hoping Manuel had Buehrle's interests at heart doesn't change the stubborn facts that Manuel didn't care about winning Thursday's game. His own actions reveal the lie that you and your crack pipe believe.

Manuel was LYING about Buehrle's health. Our first clue he was lying was that the most he ever intended was to rest Buehrle one EXTRA day. Buehrle got his full rest, and Thursday was his day to pitch. Manuel announced Cotts would start, then backtracked and said Buehrle would start, and then on Wednesday night made up his mind AFTER the Sox won the first two games.

He wasn't concerned about Buehrle's health, and he wasn't showing "confidence" in Neal Cotts' ability, either. He was looking ahead to the big series with Detroit--and writing off Thursday's game as expendable. Manuel said it himself Wednesday night...

:jerry
"I think it's a bigger deal for him than it is for us."

We're a game back of KC in the loss column because of this outrageous and totally unnecessary move.

If you want to accuse some posters of reaching too far in their reaction to yesterday's loss, fine. But please let's stop with these delusional fantasies about what Manuel's motives were. The guy is incompetent, he is definitely hurting the ballclub, and he needs to be jettisoned at the first opportunity.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by steff
If we loose the division by 1 game we should take a look at the first 2 weeks of the season when this team crapped itself everytime they took the field.

If we lose the division by one game, we should take a look at how the manager admitted his primary concern the entire first-half was making sure everyone played. By his own admission, winning didn't become more important until afterwards.

Everyone should stop trying to defend this guy because it is truly a lost cause. Manuel himself undercuts you with his own words and actions. This week's events leading up to yesterday's fiasco was just the tip of the iceberg.

For the record I hope we win the division, and I believe we still can. However I'll never point to Jerry Manuel as the reason we won it, and I'll definitely make a strong case that we won it IN SPITE of his leadership.

It sounds like the national media finally woke up about Manuel, too. There's no place to hide in a nationally-televised game played in New York against the Yankees. Manuel is a national laughingstock today.

shane
08-29-2003, 10:18 AM
If we loose the division by 1 game we should take a look at the first 2 weeks of the season when this team crapped itself everytime they took the field.

We should also take a look at Paulie and Danny, who continued to crap themselves throughout the first half. Paulie was expected to do more and should have. Management can make changes, but these guys are major league ballplayers. I can go up to the plate and get out everytime, so they need to be held accountable for their poor performance. It definitely will not be the fault of Cotts if we lose the division. I'm really not too worried about the division, I just think a sweep of the almighty Yankees really would have given the team a boost and sent them into Detroit on a high note. The schedule from here out just looks brutal to me, compared to that of the royals and twins, so hopefully they'll sweep Detroit and then win the two Boston games. If they do that, I think the likelyhood of winning the division will go up tremendously. I just hope the twins start to fade a bit. We'll take care of KC at the end of the season, but the twins are a threat indeed.

Bobby Thigpen
08-29-2003, 10:20 AM
please keep in mind we havent won a damn thing yet....I'll start having some fun when the Sox win their first playoff game at home since 1959, and then continue to kick ass in the playoffs enroute to a World series Title....

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would say a Sox fan is miserable.

Bobby Thigpen
08-29-2003, 10:23 AM
Manuel is a national laughingstock today.

George calm down. Do you honestly think that ANYONE outside of Sox fans, Royals fans, and Twins fans even thought twice about this? Why, because the mullett having, baseball GOD known as Jeff Brantley blasted JM in a thirty second blurb on Baseball Tonight and Sportscenter? I highly doubt that this is a major topic ANYWHERE outside of Chicago, Kansas City, Minneapolis, and of course this forum.

harwar
08-29-2003, 10:31 AM
Manuel gave away yesterdays game,pure and simple.
All the yankee players knew how big it was.They were saying after the game that they were relieved not to see Buehrle out on the hill because they wanted to do anything not to get swept right before heading into fenway park.
If this was a one time thing then i wouldn't have a problem,but with Manuel things like this just keep happening.Hes' always been a bad manager and he always will be.If we can make it to the playoffs despite this moron leading the way i just wonder if the players can rise up and get the job done,with the anchor that is Manuel,around their necks.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
George calm down. Do you honestly think that ANYONE outside of Sox fans, Royals fans, and Twins fans even thought twice about this? Why, because the mullett having, baseball GOD known as Jeff Brantley blasted JM in a thirty second blurb on Baseball Tonight and Sportscenter? I highly doubt that this is a major topic ANYWHERE outside of Chicago, Kansas City, Minneapolis, and of course this forum.

Check around the board. There are numerous quotes posted here taken from the ESPN crew covering yesterday's game. That was a national telecast. Perhaps you can name all the other networks who cover day baseball games on Thursday afternoons?

But I guess you have a point. It wasn't the Super Bowl or anything like that. Of course I never said it was.

A.T. Money
08-29-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by captain54
You, like Jerry Manuel, see a series win over the Yankees and want to hoist a World Series flag at 35th and Shields....

I, and probably most other dedicated Sox fans on this board, see a lost game in the standings when every game counts with only 30 to play....

please keep in mind we havent won a damn thing yet....I'll start having some fun when the Sox win their first playoff game at home since 1959, and then continue to kick ass in the playoffs enroute to a World series Title....

for a manager to settle for a series win when a sweep was well within his grasp is total idiotic....and you can't understand why everyone is negative....

I'm sorry you have such low standards.....

OMG, you have nailed it on the head so perfectly, even the biggest retard should be able to comprehend it. Short sweet and right to the point.

Perhaps some you myopic fellows that defend Manager Ghandi can read this above quote, and understand the logic.

Hangar18
08-29-2003, 10:51 AM
I know its been Mentioned, but losing YESTERDAY has put us in a TIE again for 1st place.......WE MUST SWEEP THE TIGERS

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2003, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I know its been Mentioned, but losing YESTERDAY has put us in a TIE again for 1st place.......WE MUST SWEEP THE TIGERS

I agree that the stakes have been raised this weekend in Detroit. I guarantee the Tigers know it. Manuel is the first manager in the history of baseball to set his rotation to beat a team that has lost 99 games. :smile:

I would quickly add that our situation is worse than simply being tied for first place. Kansas City has lost one fewer game with 2 extra games in hand to play. Everyone is going to play 162 games. Thus, as the season winds down, the only column that matters is the loss column--and we're a game back.

Stop worrying about wins, percentages, and games back. They offer only false comfort. After Kansas City plays and loses those extra games you can breathe easier. Of course KC will be playing those games to win, so don't be so sure they'll lose them.

The Royals still have a chance to win those extra games. In contrast, the Sox won only one of those games, and we cannot go back and improve on our performance.

Paulwny
08-29-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Check around the board. There are numerous quotes posted here taken from the ESPN crew covering yesterday's game. That was a national telecast. Perhaps you can name all the other networks who cover day baseball games on Thursday afternoons?

But I guess you have a point. It wasn't the Super Bowl or anything like that. Of course I never said it was.

The YES network carried the game and "The Move" was part of their post game. It ended with Ken Singleton saying, "If Buerhle doesn't beat the tigers tomorrow this move blows up in Jerry Manuels face".

jabrch
08-29-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
Ya know...I rarely have anything too great to contribute on the White Sox board because I live far away and I don't have the baseball experience that some of you do.

I do know one thing, however: many of you are out of hand. I come to the board today after a series win over the Yanks at NY and all I see is negativity.

Was it dumb to push back Buehrle? Yes. Was is the worst thing that has ever happened in baseball history? You might think so by reading this board.

I was just going to put this post in the topic about Manuel, but there are at least 8, so I can't decide which.

Can people just enjoy some of this winning, and a dominating series win, first place and move on from there? You can say all you want that the team is winning in spite of the manager, but if you talk to any baseball person you will realize that that just doesn't ever happen.

Have some fun, for God's sake.

Kiss Off...Until we win something...anything... in my lifetime, I have every reason to doubt and criticize this manager, this team, this ownership and this franchise. I can you didn't know, it has been a long time since we have won a home playoff game and even longer since we have won a playoff series. Since I doubt anyone on this board has ever SEEN a Sox playoff series win, we all have reason to be negative when our manager virtually surrendered a game while we are only one game up in a three way division chase.

So you Shut Up... Or go cheer for the great things we have done this season (tied for first in the crappiest division in baseball when we have far superior talent). If we were 15 games up, I wouldn't give a hoot about this game. We aren't...So I do... And so do many people here and so do many of the guys in that dougout. It is a shame the manager didn't find it more important than he did - trots out a rookie pitcher with control problems against the Yankees in Yankee Stadium...unbelieveable.

Clarkdog
08-29-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Why can't anyone mention that this was a decision predicated almost entirely on health issues? I think that is the most important thing to discuss if this is going to be debated not some inconsequential detail. Although I'm sure most will argue it, Manuel didn't just wake up one morning and say "you know I would like to see the rook with the control problem instead of my 19 game winner". He had his reasons and its completely unfair to disagree with him if you won't even acknowledge they exist.

Also, I'd love the explanation of how yesterday's game replaced a win and not another loss. If Cotts can't find the strike zone how does he win against Detroit today (or Sunday)? Do they just bow down to the mighty White Sox and leave it at that?


Amen Jeremy.

I am not a Manuel apologist. I think he may be the most bone headed manger in the major leagues - and this team is winning in spite of him. But Phil Rogers piece in Cubune was right on in why why Manuel made the decision to start Cotts. Manuel remembers 2000 and what bad shape the pitching staff was in. That team was going nowhere in the playoffs given the poor state of the rotation and bullpen. This team has been designed to play deep into October - not merely get there. He is trying to give the starters the necessary rest to assure they can pitch as well as they have been recently in late September.

Right now Buerhle, Colon, and Loaiza are projected to throw between 225 - 236 innings each. Buehrle has thrown that much in a season, Colon as well, Loaiza never. If they make the post season they are going to have to throw a lot more. Best to keep them as fresh as possible and give rest when you can if we are about going deep in the playoffs.

On the bright side, if I projected the rotation correctly the 5th starter would only need to be used two more times this season. The question is do we let Cotts start anymore, and give the ball back to Wright.

Bobby Thigpen
08-29-2003, 11:25 AM
The question is do we let Cotts start anymore, and give the ball back to Wright.

I'd say give it back to Wright. He looked very good yesterday, and has looked good the last few times he's been sent out there. If he's only going to start 2-3 times more I'd rather see him, let Cotts work out of the pen for a while as mop up.

By the way what ever happened to Stewart? He seemed to have his moments earlier this spring, but they sent him down to bring up Wright and he disappeared to me. Haven't heard anything about him.

Jerko
08-29-2003, 11:25 AM
See how much Ghandi cares about Buehrle's "health" when he has to go 8 innings today because yesterday's starter lasted 1/3 of an inning. How much freakin difference is one day going to make if the guy is really hurt?

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
See how much Ghandi cares about Buehrle's "health" when he has to go 8 innings today because yesterday's starter lasted 1/3 of an inning. How much freakin difference is one day going to make if the guy is really hurt?

Zero. We still have at least one true-believer in the silver lining thread, not to mention Phil Rogers, too--so maybe there is something to it after all! :smile:

Bobby Thigpen
08-29-2003, 11:29 AM
Why does Buehrle "HAVE" to go 8 innings today. All the Sox used out of the pen yesterday was Wright and Marte. The pen has been pretty well rested for the last couple weeks.

harwar
08-29-2003, 11:35 AM
What it comes down to is the fact that there is no reason why we couldn't win BOTH games.If Buehrle pitches yesterday,i think we scored enough to win and with the way the White Sox are swinging the bats theres no reason why we couldn't win tonight even if Neal was wild.I know the tigers are sending a guy that we haven't seen before to the mound but i think we are going to pound the tigers into submission this weekend.
Also,every game is huge right now.To squander away a win at this time of year is so dangerous and Manuels' careless attitude is worrisome to say the least.
One more thing to remember is that while the White Sox & royals are beating each others brains out in 7 of the last 10 games of the season,the twins will be playing THE TIGERS in 7 of the last 10.
One thing that i'm sure of is that we can't afford to be giving away ANY MORE GAMES.Someone tell that guy whos dancing as fast as he can that right now you play to win EVERY GAME!!!

Paulwny
08-29-2003, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by harwar

One thing that i'm sure of is that we can't afford to be giving away ANY MORE GAMES.Someone tell that guy whos dancing as fast as he can that right now you play to win EVERY GAME!!!

The yanks were shell shocked and back on their heels. Clemens and Wells both bombed, Mussina is hit hard gives up 2 runs and has thrown ~ 30 pitches and out came the Christian to be fed to the lions.

voodoochile
08-29-2003, 12:07 PM
I still think the Sox will win the division. I have not changed that thinking all season though at times they have severely tried my patience. I don't mind a loss here and there, I understand the dynamics of a 162-game season that lasts 6 months.

However, people have a right to be very upset after Jerry Manuel once again tied one of the teams hands behind its back and turned it loose in NY yesterday. It was an arbitrary decision that was based purely on a line of thought that ONLY Jerry could see. There wasn't a single person who thought Cotts should go over Buehrle yesterday if Buehrle was healthy. By all accounts he was. Heck, Hawk's anger in the booth yesterday during the game says that he was and says that Manuel made a dumb decision and it cost the Sox a chance to win. TornLabrum pointed out that Jerry has skipped the 5th starter all year long until yesterday. Why now does he decide to tinker with the rotation?

It's more of the same old same old "book of management according to Jerry" and it sucks. It's based on his ego and his fear of talented players. He has no idea how to motivate the team or how to maximize its potential, period. The man is a waste of bench space. Worse even, because an empty space wouldn't hurt this team as often as Jerry's ridiculous management philosophy - "Let's throw something at the wall and see if it sticks" - does.

Aren't the supporters of optimistic thought just a little upset with their manager making decisions that constantly hurt this team?

It isn't the fact that the Sox are tied for first. It is the fact that they could easily be at least a game up if Jerry wasn't overthinking things again and doing stuff that everyone else knows is wrong.

:firejerry

GO SOX!

How's that for optimisim for you?

maurice
08-29-2003, 12:47 PM
Look, I regularly try to crusade against pessimism on this board. However, JM's continued reign of incompetence and Sox management's refussal to rectify the situation should frustrate any reasonable Sox fan. People use this board to vent their frustration. I'd rather they post a missive here than go home and kick their dog. At least the anti-JM criticism is directed at the source of the frustration.

Paulwny
08-29-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by maurice
People use this board to vent their frustration. I'd rather they post a missive here than go home and kick their dog. At least the anti-JM criticism is directed at the source of the frustration.

You are soooooooooo right. My wife loves this site, no more angry, frustrated, grumpy husband.

LASOXFAN
08-29-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
jeremy, put down the crack pipe. Wishing and hoping Manuel had Buehrle's interests at heart doesn't change the stubborn facts that Manuel didn't care about winning Thursday's game. His own actions reveal the lie that you and your crack pipe believe.

Manuel was LYING about Buehrle's health. Our first clue he was lying was that the most he ever intended was to rest Buehrle one EXTRA day. Buehrle got his full rest, and Thursday was his day to pitch. Manuel announced Cotts would start, then backtracked and said Buehrle would start, and then on Wednesday night made up his mind AFTER the Sox won the first two games.

He wasn't concerned about Buehrle's health, and he wasn't showing "confidence" in Neal Cotts' ability, either. He was looking ahead to the big series with Detroit--and writing off Thursday's game as expendable. Manuel said it himself Wednesday night...

:jerry
"I think it's a bigger deal for him than it is for us."

We're a game back of KC in the loss column because of this outrageous and totally unnecessary move.

If you want to accuse some posters of reaching too far in their reaction to yesterday's loss, fine. But please let's stop with these delusional fantasies about what Manuel's motives were. The guy is incompetent, he is definitely hurting the ballclub, and he needs to be jettisoned at the first opportunity.

He'll put the crack pipe down as soon as you take the needle out of your arm. There's NO WAY Buehrle would have missed his start had he not complained of discomfort when he was warming up for his last start. Pure and simple. You sound as if you believe that Jerry would have made this move regardless. Is that what you're saying? Be clear.

voodoochile
08-29-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
He'll put the crack pipe down as soon as you take the needle out of your arm. There's NO WAY Buehrle would have missed his start had he not complained of discomfort when he was warming up for his last start. Pure and simple. You sound as if you believe that Jerry would have made this move regardless. Is that what you're saying? Be clear.

Then why did he say he was 99.9% sure Mark would start on Thursday earlier in the week? If the tightness was an issue still, then he wouldn't have made that comment.

pudge
08-29-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
He'll put the crack pipe down as soon as you take the needle out of your arm. There's NO WAY Buehrle would have missed his start had he not complained of discomfort when he was warming up for his last start. Pure and simple. You sound as if you believe that Jerry would have made this move regardless. Is that what you're saying? Be clear.

I understand jeremy's point on this, but my big beef is that Manuel has admitted that he makes last-second decisions based on how the Sox do in the first two games of a series... this is LUDICRIS to me. If we were 10 games up, or even 3 games up, I'd say, "Okay, start Cotts." BUT WE'RE NOT. We need every single friggin' win right now. If Buehrle was healthy enough to start the game if we lost one to the Yanks, why isn't he healthy enough to start and get the sweep???? Baffling!

Fridaythe13thJason
08-29-2003, 01:22 PM
...and what happens if we win 2-0 today. I just want to be the first to say it so I'm not accused of 20-20 hindsight.

voodoochile
08-29-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
...and what happens if we win 2-0 today. I just want to be the first to say it so I'm not accused of 20-20 hindsight.

Well, it was Garland's day to start, so the Sox wouldn't be that bad off...

PaleHoseGeorge
08-29-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
He'll put the crack pipe down as soon as you take the needle out of your arm. There's NO WAY Buehrle would have missed his start had he not complained of discomfort when he was warming up for his last start. Pure and simple. You sound as if you believe that Jerry would have made this move regardless. Is that what you're saying? Be clear.

... and some of us still wonder why ballplayers hide injuries and ultimately hurt the ballclub by having less than their full ability available to the team. I choose to blame management for causing this sort of environment and hurting the ballclub, but if you want to blame the players who have to live in that environment, fine.

For the record, Manuel had Buehrle pitch 104 pitches AFTER he noted his trouble loosening up. Try harder to advance this "Manuel has Buehrle's health in mind" argument. I believe you're falling short of the mark.

As for what Manuel was, is, or will be thinking, I have no clue. Neither does any other rational human being.

pudge
08-29-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by steff
If we loose the division by 1 game we should take a look at the first 2 weeks of the season when this team crapped itself everytime they took the field.

I agree completely, but again, part of this goes back to JM's laid back approach of "early games don't mean anything." I hate that attitude, because it can come back to bite you.

pudge
08-29-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC
...and what happens if we win 2-0 today. I just want to be the first to say it so I'm not accused of 20-20 hindsight.

Then it's a wash and JM escapes with his head. But we still lose the fact that MB is pissed, the players don't understand Manuel, and Cotts' confidence is damaged.

voodoochile
08-29-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Then it's a wash and JM escapes with his head. But we still lose the fact that MB is pissed, the players don't understand Manuel, and Cotts' confidence is damaged.

But that has nothing to do with his tinkering and thus cannot be used to judge the man as a manager...

thepaulbowski
08-29-2003, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I agree completely, but again, part of this goes back to JM's laid back approach of "early games don't mean anything." I hate that attitude, because it can come back to bite you.

I'm not a JM defender, but I've never noticed anything of the such conveyed by him. The reason we lost during the beginning of the season is because of the bullpen & we couldn't him our way out of a wet paper bag. If we lose the division by one game we have multiple places to look. The beginning sweep at KC, the blown game at home vs. KC, the road trip to Calif. & Texas, getting swept by Detroit, losing 2 of 3 at home to Detroit etc. I Don't agree with the decision yesterday, but blaming that one game for not getting to the post season would be ridiculous.

LASOXFAN
08-29-2003, 01:42 PM
Health issues aside, there's one point that I feel has been way overlooked in this controversy. Mark Buehrle has never pitched in Yankee Stadium. He admitted that he too likely would've had some jitters on the mound. If the Sox face the Yankees in the first round isn't there a chance that Buehrle would face the Yankees in the Bronx? AND WOULDN'T YOU LIKE HIM TO HAVE A START IN THE BRONX UNDER HIS BELT??

Yet another reason to be angry about this decision, and a more reasonable one in my opinion.

Mammoo
08-29-2003, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by SoCalUIC

Have some fun, for God's sake.

Blow me!!!

JC456
08-29-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by pudge
This is a message board with passionate White Sox fans, so I don't really know what you expect.

Beside that, this happens to be JM's most controversial decision BY FAR, discussed on national networks, and as I watched the YES broadcast today on Directv, even they were stunned at the decision. It's all good if Buehrle wins tomorrow, but what if we win 13-2? Then we wasted a good outing by Buehrle in a game we could have won with Cotts/Wright. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens on Friday. And if we lose this division by one game, can you even imagine what this board will be like......?

I don't get it. You all are supposed to be White Sox fans, yet all you do is complain. I started a thread on this very topic Wednesday. Everyone was whining about this and that and the guy shooting employees in an auto repair building. If you are so mad at the current Sox team, then find another team to root for. No one is standing in your way. The constant complaining here is ridiculous for a team in first place and 30 games left.

Finally, if they do lose by one game, then feel free to complain all you want here because we all will be gone until next year. Fans like you make it difficult for fans like me to enjoy a message board. And its because of all the dume and glume negativity here.

I am not a whiner, nor am I convinced that one game makes a season. I will put as much positive energy into this team as I can, the boys need it. they don't need the negativity. Leave it parked at the curb.

DirtySouthsider
08-29-2003, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
Put down your crack pipe brother. The negativity is our god given right as white sox fans. Everyone knows JM is the reason why Kenndy was shot, 2 buildings in NY are missing and the sox won a series against the yankees in New York. We are tired of it and damnit we are not going to stand for it anymore. Fire his ass and lets hang him from the top of the sears tower as a warning to all future managers of the white sox.


You have the audacity to rip manuel.......But THEN you include a picture of WANNY with your post???

You're credibility is out the window!!!!! :?:

LASOXFAN
08-29-2003, 02:56 PM
IT'S GOOD TO VENT, BUT THERE'S NOTHING HERE THAT A SWEEP OF THE TIGERS, BOSOX AND INDIANS WON'T CURE!

can you feel it? I think it's time to separate from the pack!

pudge
08-29-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by JC456


Finally, if they do lose by one game, then feel free to complain all you want here because we all will be gone until next year. Fans like you make it difficult for fans like me to enjoy a message board. And its because of all the dume and glume negativity here.



When you say "we" won't be here until next season, do you mean the non-passionte fans who only troll the boards when the times are good? Because I tend to be a fan 52 weeks a year. Maybe it's a sickness.

Konerkoholic
08-29-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
You have the audacity to rip manuel.......But THEN you include a picture of WANNY with your post???

You're credibility is out the window!!!!! :?:
Uh, I think he was being sarcastic when he said Manuel was the reason Kennedy was shot. Anyway, that's not what i wanted to talk about. Clarkdog, you mentioned that JM wants to give his starters rest because of what happened in 2000. If that's the case, then why does he use Gordon and Marte in the first 2 blowout games of this series? Those 2 guys are just as important as our starters so why were they used in a game that was well out of hand instead of Showenweiss or Wright?

pudge
08-29-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
Uh, I think he was being sarcastic when he said Manuel was the reason Kennedy was shot. Anyway, that's not what i wanted to talk about. Clarkdog, you mentioned that JM wants to give his starters rest because of what happened in 2000. If that's the case, then why does he use Gordon and Marte in the first 2 blowout games of this series? Those 2 guys are just as important as our starters so why were they used in a game that was well out of hand instead of Showenweiss or Wright?

First of all, why are we even comparing this to 2000, in which we basically had the division locked up by July? This is a totally different scenario... I love how some people around here assume we're going to the play-offs. WE ARE NOT EVEN IN FIRST PLACE RIGHT NOW. So people need to stop saying we're in first place. Percentage wise, KC is actually ahead of us. And let's not forget the Twins end the season with 7 games against the Tigers. Argh. I don't get some people around here. Everyone's different I suppose, that's what makes this board great.

Let's just sweep Det. so we can all start feeling the love again.

thepaulbowski
08-29-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by pudge

Let's just sweep Det. so we can all start feeling the love again.

Exactly, the horse is dead...it's time for everyone to get off and move on. Let's get back to complaining about the margin of victory!!

thepaulbowski
08-29-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
IT'S GOOD TO VENT, BUT THERE'S NOTHING HERE THAT A SWEEP OF THE TIGERS, BOSOX AND INDIANS WON'T CURE!

can you feel it? I think it's time to separate from the pack!

amen, brother!

:gulp:

Clarkdog
08-29-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
Clarkdog, you mentioned that JM wants to give his starters rest because of what happened in 2000. If that's the case, then why does he use Gordon and Marte in the first 2 blowout games of this series? Those 2 guys are just as important as our starters so why were they used in a game that was well out of hand instead of Showenweiss or Wright?

To qualify - I am not a Manuel apologist - just watching him operate helps one to understand they way he thinks - even if it causes me to scratch my head now and then. Which is important because he does not articulate his thoughts very well.

That said, his use of the bullpen is about getting the pitchers in to work on a consistent basis. Manuel loves to use the bullpen for that reason. He must figure that it will keep them sharp for when the Sox do have a save situation. Loaiza pitched a gem on Tuesday yet he used Shoeneweis and Gordon to get in an inning of work as Loaiza's pitch count was near 120. He used Wunsch and Marte on Wednesday for an inning a piece after Colon was over 120 pitches. He used Sullivan and Marte Thursday for an 1.2 and 1 inning after Wright stepped in for Cotts and got them to the 6th. Either way there seems to be a pattern. My guess is tonight if Buehrle gets over 100 pitches in the 7th with a lead, you'll probably see Shoeneweis/Wunsch set up Gordon.

kempsted
08-29-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Exactly, the horse is dead...it's time for everyone to get off and move on. Let's get back to complaining about the margin of victory!!

This horse will be dead about 6:05 CDT tonight when we start our next game. Before that - the last game is all we have to talk about. Don't you wish the last game was one of the blow out victories. :) Then we would be hearing Wow we are so great. And the counter would be - we are using up our alloted run total for the year with all these homers. :D:

Just be thankful this isn't a football site. At least we get a new game every day - if we had to talk about this last one for a week ... :o:

voodoochile
08-29-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
This horse will be dead about 6:05 CDT tonight when we start our next game. Before that - the last game is all we have to talk about. Don't you wish the last game was one of the blow out victories. :) Then we would be hearing Wow we are so great. And the counter would be - we are using up our alloted run total for the year with all these homers. :D:

Just be thankful this isn't a football site. At least we get a new game every day - if we had to talk about this last one for a week ... :o:

This horse is a long way from dead and if the Sox crush the Tigers this weekend with an offensive explosion, it is going to be worse for Manuel, not better...

You can almost see Manuel hoping for a nail-biter or two in Detroit. Maybe he will play a corpseball lineup or two to try and make it happen...

thepaulbowski
08-29-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by kempsted

Just be thankful this isn't a football site. At least we get a new game every day - if we had to talk about this last one for a week ... :o:

If this was a football site...well just thank God it isn't!!! :D:

Everbody :gulp: & lets go White Sox!

RKMeibalane
08-29-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
This horse is a long way from dead and if the Sox crush the Tigers this weekend with an offensive explosion, it is going to be worse for Manuel, not better...

You can almost see Manuel hoping for a nail-biter or two in Detroit. Maybe he will play a corpseball lineup or two to try and make it happen...

If Manuel throws anymore games this season, he should be fired. I am waiting for Ken Williams or Jerry Reinsdorf to respond to this situation. I can't speak for JR, but I know that Williams wants to win. I don't imagine he's too happy about Cotts getting the start yesterday.

I will never understand how some people can defend Manuel's antics. In the past twelve weeks alone, he has done the following:

1. Treated a HOF player like a laboratory rat, moving him around and toying with him just to see what happens.

2. Insisted on giving playing time to mediocre players, in spite of the fact that this was hurting the ballclub.

3. Moved players all over the lineup, just so he could indulge in his tinkering fantasies.

4. Made a huge mess of the bullpen by using certain pitcher too much (Gordon, Marte), and others too little (Glover).

As I have said many times, if the Sox win this division, it will be in spite of Manuel, not because of him. He has managed to **** up nearly everything to do with this team, and he doesn't even have a valid reason for doing so.

Throw assorted fruits and vegetables at this person ------> :jerry

maurice
08-29-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Manuel had Buehrle pitch 104 pitches AFTER he noted his trouble loosening up.

And then told a reporter that he intends to pitch MB on only three days rest for the remainder of the season. I really wish the pro-JM crowd would learn something that most Sox fans and all Sox players have known for years: JM is a pathological liar and is in serious need of professional help. His lying and mismanagement is deleterious to team morale. The continuous nature of his lying and mismanagement is why this issue isn't a "dead horse."

BTW: concerning the title of this thread, it's the height of hypocrisy to complain that everyone else is complaining.

LASOXFAN
08-29-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by maurice
And then told a reporter that he intends to pitch MB on only three days rest for the remainder of the season. I really wish the pro-JM crowd would learn something that most Sox fans and all Sox players have known for years: JM is a pathological liar and is in serious need of professional help. His lying and mismanagement is deleterious to team morale. The continuous nature of his lying and mismanagement is why this issue isn't a "dead horse."

BTW: concerning the title of this thread, it's the height of hypocrisy to complain that everyone else is complaining.

Is there anyone on this site who's really "pro-Manuel"? I doubt it seriously. Just because many aren't willing to blame him for EVERYTHING that goes wrong (let's call them the "rational" faction, shall we?) doesn't mean they are necessarily pro-JM. In fact, I think everyone would agree that a managerial change is in order at the end of the season....unless they win it all, in which case I think JM would retire. He's hinted to it.

maurice
08-29-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Is there anyone on this site who's really "pro-Manuel"?

Unfortunately, the answer is "yes." In addition, numerous Chicago and national media types have regularly and strenuously disagreed with your clearly correct assessment that JM should be gone.

Originally posted by Clarkdog
[Manuel] does not articulate his thoughts very well.

This is a stinging indictment of a person who essentially talks for a living. The only alternative explanation for his inconsistent ramblings is that he's plenty articulate but suffering from acute mental confusion. Either way, he's not qualified to manage even a little league team.

soxfan45
08-29-2003, 05:02 PM
What is wrong with you guys, you are debating whether the hit was a line drive single or a blooper and in the box score it doesn't matter.
Say what you will, but in the W/L column a win vs. the Yanks or a win vs. the Tigers is the same thing.

If you go back and look how important it is for this team to start off a series with a win, it makes some sense to use Mark for the opener. The sox are a very streaky team and need to start these series with positive momentum or things fall apart.

Cotts got shelled, thats it. Why aren't you debating whether Wright or a more experienced 5th starter should have started. I also don't know why you would want to mess with a rotation in late August?

A.T. Money
08-29-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by soxfan45

Say what you will, but in the W/L column a win vs. the Yanks or a win vs. the Tigers is the same thing.


In April, yes. In late August, with a 1-game lead in the division, no.

Thanks to that loss, we're now tied for 1st. There are 30 games left. Every game is critical, period.

Anyone making light of losing this one game is crazy, not those who are pissed about it.

voodoochile
08-29-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by soxfan45
What is wrong with you guys, you are debating whether the hit was a line drive single or a blooper and in the box score it doesn't matter.
Say what you will, but in the W/L column a win vs. the Yanks or a win vs. the Tigers is the same thing.

If you go back and look how important it is for this team to start off a series with a win, it makes some sense to use Mark for the opener. The sox are a very streaky team and need to start these series with positive momentum or things fall apart.

Cotts got shelled, thats it. Why aren't you debating whether Wright or a more experienced 5th starter should have started. I also don't know why you would want to mess with a rotation in late August?

You are correct. A win is a win is a win, but don't you think Buehrle stands a better chance to beat the Yankees than Cotts and that Cotts will stand a better chance against the Tigers than against the Yankees. Why not play for the way that gives your team the best chance at 2 wins instead of trying to guarantee 1?

34 Inch Stick
08-29-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Unfortunately, the answer is "yes." In addition, numerous Chicago and national media types have regularly and strenuously disagreed with your clearly correct assessment that JM should be gone.



This is a stinging indictment of a person who essentially talks for a living. The only alternative explanation for his inconsistent ramblings is that he's plenty articulate but suffering from acute mental confusion. Either way, he's not qualified to manage even a little league team.

The great Joe Cowley has even graced us by entering this board and questioning the intelligence of anyone who thinks Manuel should be fired.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2003, 10:33 PM
Just curious...under what name does Cowley go by?

Lip

Kilroy
08-30-2003, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You are correct. A win is a win is a win, but don't you think Buehrle stands a better chance to beat the Yankees than Cotts and that Cotts will stand a better chance against the Tigers than against the Yankees.

This is a pretty dumb question since they both got their asses handed to them. How could Buehrle stand a better chance against the Yanks when he can't handle the Tigers? And seeing the Tigers whipped Buehrle's ass like they did, what would they have done to Cotts?

Seems as tho there's a flaw in your logic.

Lets just hope Garland can show up tomorrow, and the offense can back him up.

captain54
08-30-2003, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
This is a pretty dumb question since they both got their asses handed to them. How could Buehrle stand a better chance against the Yanks when he can't handle the Tigers? And seeing the Tigers whipped Buehrle's ass like they did, what would they have done to Cotts?

Seems as tho there's a flaw in your logic.




the opportunity to sweep the Yankees was there for the taking, and the chances of that happening with Buehrle thursday was far greater that throwing a Double A pitcher out there....Manuel basically let the Yankees off the hook ....

the Sox team as a whole can't handle the Tigers....for whatever reason....so if Cotts would have had had his ass whipped Friday,
I'd bet Vegas odds we would have been 1-1 the last two games instead of 0-2....

pudge
08-30-2003, 02:31 AM
I guess the only anti-Manuel argument you could make at this point is that Buehrle might have been more fired-up to face the Yanks, and his momentum was sucked away after an extra day rest and having to face the lowly Tigers.

But even then, I think that's a bit of a stretch.

Bottom line, we sucked the last two games, so let's turn it around.

FarWestChicago
08-30-2003, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
George calm down. Do you honestly think that ANYONE outside of Sox fans, Royals fans, and Twins fans even thought twice about this? Why, because the mullett having, baseball GOD known as Jeff Brantley blasted JM in a thirty second blurb on Baseball Tonight and Sportscenter? I highly doubt that this is a major topic ANYWHERE outside of Chicago, Kansas City, Minneapolis, and of course this forum. And you are wrong. I walked into work today and all the A's and Gaint's fans, who are my friends, instead of their normal trash talking were actlually being compassionate, "Dude, you must be just dying inside having a moron like that for a manager. You've got some players on that team. Hell, you ass handed they Yankess like nobody's business for two games. And that idiot forfeited the third game because you had won the series. Does he look at the scoreboard? Damn, if Felipe/Ken did something like that we would kill him."

Hangar18
08-30-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
...... He is trying to give the starters the necessary rest to assure they can pitch as well as they have been recently in late September.

Right now Buerhle, Colon, and Loaiza are projected to throw between 225 - 236 innings each. Buehrle has thrown that much in a season, Colon as well, Loaiza never. If they make the post season they are going to have to throw a lot more. Best to keep them as fresh as possible and give rest when you can if we are about going deep in the playoffs.

On the bright side, if I projected the rotation correctly the 5th starter would only need to be used two more times this season. The question is do we let Cotts start anymore, and give the ball back to Wright.

This is a good argument, if this is what Jerry Manuel wants to hang his hat on. BUT ............... the 2000 team had such a big lead, the sox were able to go ahead and mess with the rotation.
Our Ridiculous Play in April and May have NECESSITATED THAT WE MUST WIN EVERY SINGLE GAME POSSIBLE ...... and no chance to REST ANYONE. ITS TOO LATE FOR THAT. Manuel "rested" a guy and we lost a Game that WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE

voodoochile
08-30-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
This is a pretty dumb question since they both got their asses handed to them. How could Buehrle stand a better chance against the Yanks when he can't handle the Tigers? And seeing the Tigers whipped Buehrle's ass like they did, what would they have done to Cotts?

Seems as tho there's a flaw in your logic.


Yes, because one game always tells us everything we need to know about both pitchers. Come on.

You claim that my logic is flawed, but you won't accept that if the Sox played those 2 games over 10 more times each, that Cotts would lose more games to the Yankees than Buehrle and Cotts would beat the Tigers more often than he beats the Yankees?

I guess JM is right, it doesn't matter who starts when. Maybe they should use Cotts in the opening game of the playoffs, if/when they get there.

voodoochile
08-30-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
And you are wrong. I walked into work today and all the A's and Gaint's fans, who are my friends, instead of their normal trash talking were actlually being compassionate, "Dude, you must be just dying inside having a moron like that for a manager. You've got some players on that team. Hell, you ass handed they Yankess like nobody's business for two games. And that idiot forfeited the third game because you had won the series. Does he look at the scoreboard? Damn, if Felipe/Ken did something like that we would kill him."

My flubbie fan roommate expressed shock and sympathy. I got pitied by a flubbie fan. It doesn't get any worse than that...

harwar
08-30-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
all the A's and Gaint's fans, who are my friends, instead of their normal trash talking were actually being compassionate, "Dude, you must be just dying inside having a moron like that for a manager.


I am hearing the same thing up here in Wisconsin,at least i was,now its all football and nothing but.

StillMissOzzie
09-02-2003, 02:02 AM
What I haven't seen mentioned in the Cotts / Buehrle debacle is that, even with the benefit of another full day's rest , Buehrle got his butt kicked by the Tigers. I fail to see how he would have done better, with one day's LESS rest, against the Yank-mees.

As for the "if we lose this division by only one game" arguments, there are way too many places to argue this point before the Cotts / Buehrle incident:
Like the first month or two of the season vs. the Royals and Twinkies?

Like not one but TWO 1-0 losses to the lowly Tigers by Loaiza? He'd be a 20 game winner today if the Sox could have hit anything

Like Pauly not hitting his weight for the 1st half of the season?

Hell, if anyone had told you that this would be a 4-2 road trip, you'd gladly take it after their earlier road woes. Now, it's time to pull away from the pack and make the Royals / Angels make-up game meaningless.

:gulp:

kempsted
09-02-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
What I haven't seen mentioned in the Cotts / Buehrle debacle is that, even with the benefit of another full day's rest , Buehrle got his butt kicked by the Tigers. I fail to see how he would have done better, with one day's LESS rest, against the Yank-mees.

As for the "if we lose this division by only one game" arguments, there are way too many places to argue this point before the Cotts / Buehrle incident:
Like the first month or two of the season vs. the Royals and Twinkies?

Like not one but TWO 1-0 losses to the lowly Tigers by Loaiza? He'd be a 20 game winner today if the Sox could have hit anything

Like Pauly not hitting his weight for the 1st half of the season?

Hell, if anyone had told you that this would be a 4-2 road trip, you'd gladly take it after their earlier road woes. Now, it's time to pull away from the pack and make the Royals / Angels make-up game meaningless.

:gulp:
If you havn't heard it mentioned you don't read this board much. People were speculating before Buehrle pitched he might get rocked because a) He prepared to start on Thursday since Manuel was 99.9% sure he was going to start Buehrle, then told him he wasn't pitching. b) Was pissed off - and guess what the "he's a professional drone drone drone" doesn't work. Everyone reflect on your own job and tell me even thought they pay you you are always on your best even when not happy. Then compound the problem because you are playing a GAME where we all know emotion plays a big part. c) Extra days of rest don't help if you are not hurting which Buehrle says he was not. They most likely are worse because you have trained your body to be ready every 5 days.

And... and this is the most important part WHO CARES. Even if Cotts had pitched a shutout and Buehrle was rocked it was a stupid thing to do. It's like you are in a close game 4 and 10 inside your own 20 and you go for it. If you make it everyone is happy but it was still a stupid thing to do. If it doesn't work it doesn't make it stupider it just makes people angrier.

Yes you are right this is a dead horse. Sorry to everyone else.