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Viva Magglio
08-28-2003, 10:27 PM
...how many of them do you think are directly attributable to Jerry Manuel blowing the game in whatever way?

RKMeibalane
08-28-2003, 10:35 PM
Let's see...

1. Today's game.

2. The game in Seattle when he used the "B" lineup.

3. The third Cubs game at the Urinal when he pulled Colon.

4. A Saturday game at Tampa Bay when he kept Maggs on the bench until the ninth, when Ordonez hit solo home run as a pinch-hitter.

The thing of it is, if the Sox lose this division by one or two games, the first thing I will think of will be games like these. The Sox have more than enough talent to win this division EASILY. Why aren't they doing it?

Here's my best guess:

:jerry

"I want to make sure everyone feels good about themselves. The goal in baseball is to be considerate of every player's feelings. It's so sad when someone sits in the dugout crying. Royce had that problem a lot, so I took him out for ice cream. Then I put him in the lineup for the rest of the year. Don't stories like this just warm your heart?"

THE_HOOTER
08-28-2003, 10:43 PM
A manager can make bad decisions and cost us some games--it happens to every ballclub.

However, today is almost like throwing the game.

What I keep thinking is if he thought today's game was a good time to play Cotts, whats next?

We all know by now that this team is streaky, and we need to ride out a streak as long as possible.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why Manuel would break up the streak, or threaten it in any way/

My biggest beef with him is he makes these decisions based on feeling, and no logical reasoning.

MarqSox
08-28-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
My biggest beef with him is he makes these decisions based on feeling, and no logical reasoning.
I dunno about that ... he makes a lot of decisions based strictly on percentages. I would argue that he actually doesn't manage ENOUGH on feeling.

RKMeibalane
08-28-2003, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I dunno about that ... he makes a lot of decisions based strictly on percentages. I would argue that he actually doesn't manage ENOUGH on feeling.

I agree with that. Manuel spends too much time worrying about match-ups, instead of just sticking with something that works. He did that when he kept Carl Everett out of the lineup in Anaheim. He did that when he benched Frank because of Matt Clement.

MRKARNO
08-28-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
...how many of them do you think are directly attributable to Jerry Manuel blowing the game in whatever way?

All 63...

but of 71 wins, I think jerry is directly attributable to doing something to help them win too

ssang
08-29-2003, 12:50 AM
Don't forget the fiasco against the Giants when Moron Manuel decided to pitch to Bonds in the 9th with 1st base open (Bonds hit a game tying 2-run HR). And then he kept Colon out there even though he was spent because the moron had no one warming up!!! Plus about 6 more games that I don't have time to write about. I'd say around 10 total games he has blown. DAMN YOU JERRY!

MisterB
08-29-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I dunno about that ... he makes a lot of decisions based strictly on percentages. I would argue that he actually doesn't manage ENOUGH on feeling.

He obviously hasn't seen Thomas's stats at 1B vs. DH...

CLR01
08-29-2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
but of 71 wins, I think jerry is directly attributable to doing something to help them win too

You are right and that something was staying out of sight.



The way i see it:

JM this season is 0-63

players 71-0

jeremyb1
08-29-2003, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Let's see...
3. The third Cubs game at the Urinal when he pulled Colon

...Due to his ailing arm...

4. A Saturday game at Tampa Bay when he kept Maggs on the bench until the ninth, when Ordonez hit solo home run as a pinch-hitter.

While clearly Maggs would have had 6 home runs if he played the entire game...

The thing of it is, if the Sox lose this division by one or two games, the first thing I will think of will be games like these. The Sox have more than enough talent to win this division EASILY. Why aren't they doing it?

Really? The first thing I'll think of is hitting .240 in the first half but If Manuel had used a set lineup its a mathematical certainty we would've hit at least .300 instead.

steff
08-29-2003, 08:49 AM
Ya know what.. these guys are professionals who get paid a LOT of money to play a kids game. They should be performing no matter what the lineup, where they play, who's pitching, etc, etc..

Blame JM all you want, afterall it's the easiest thing to do.. but try for a second to remember that he's not the one tossing the ball or swinging the bat.

steff
08-29-2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by ssang
Don't forget the fiasco against the Giants when Moron Manuel decided to pitch to Bonds in the 9th with 1st base open (Bonds hit a game tying 2-run HR). And then he kept Colon out there even though he was spent because the moron had no one warming up!!! Plus about 6 more games that I don't have time to write about. I'd say around 10 total games he has blown. DAMN YOU JERRY!


LOL.. the fiasco. Ignore the fact that Bonds K'd in his previous at bats. Unreal.

34 Inch Stick
08-29-2003, 09:08 AM
As much as I hate Manuel as a manager I honestly don't attribute any losses to him exclusively. At the same time he does have some responsibility in many losses due to poor team management (lineup, pitching, preparation, etc.).

At worst I would like my manager to be a non factor in either wins or losses. Since Jerry is a frequent contributor to losses, I believe he has to go.

dougs78
08-29-2003, 09:15 AM
This whole thread is just ridiculous. I come here everyday and read this stuff from you guys, so I expect it, but truly its the height of irony.

You bash Manuel for showing no "logic" in his decisions and then go right on to invent your own logic which tells you that mysteriously every loss by the Sox was his fault and that every win was in spite of him.

Boy, if this team can be tied for first place in spite of their manager then I can't believe how good they would be if they didn't even have a manager at all. I'm assuming from some of these posts that you guys truly believe they would be 133-0.

God forbid if some of you Einsteins were managing the team, I'm sure you would have probably found to way to better even that perfect record.

It just gets really old to see every hop on the same thing every time and not even look at the situation rationally. Yes, this is a fan site and we are all biased, but does that mean we have to throw any bit of objectivity out the window?? If you truly aren't going to be objective at all, then I wish you would just notify the rest of the board so we can put you on an ignore list. I really don't want to hear the opinions if they don't even border on reality.

1951Campbell
08-29-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
I dunno about that ... he makes a lot of decisions based strictly on percentages. I would argue that he actually doesn't manage ENOUGH on feeling.

No doubt. I remember some uses of the bullpen in reverse order, and I'd bet dollars to donuts Jerry was solely looking at his Excel spreadsheet on pithcer/player matchups when he went ahead with that foolishness.

Jerko
08-29-2003, 09:55 AM
I remember ONE, maybe two times where JM made good moves. The one I remember was pulling his Koch with 2 outs in the 9th for Marte, and you usually don't do that to a closer (which Koch was at the time) so I give him props for that. Everything else is indefensible. And I really hate that "he doesn't swing or catch for us" debate too. To me that just means that no teams need a manager at all since he doesn't play. Even that Colon/Bonds game. Remember last year, Buehrle is shutting down the Yanks 4-1, gets yanked himself because according to the genious in the dugout "it's always hard getting people out the 4th time through the lineup", and the Sox lost. When did Colon give up the homer to Bonds? The 4th at bat. I think that's why so many people are pissed about that game, JM defies his own logic half of the time. Funny, that half are usually games we win.

Bobby Thigpen
08-29-2003, 10:11 AM
All 63 of them. The rally monkey could do a better job.

Please, at the most Manuel has cost the Sox 5-6 games this year. That's about what every manager does on a yearly basis. Then again it is his fault they hit .240 for the first half.

daveb816
08-29-2003, 10:18 AM
I'd say 3:

1) KC game when Garland was lifted in 6th;
2) 2nd game of season in KC when 3-1 hit sign wasn't given with 1 on , 0 out;
3) Sunday game (6/1) in Cleveland when Gordon left in game too long in disastrous 8th.

And they might have lost #2 above even if they hit away.

Iwritecode
08-29-2003, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Jerko
JM defies his own logic half of the time.

Did everyone just see this quote??? This is exactly the reason most of us can't stand Manuel. How many times has he contradicted himself the past few years? I've never seen anyone do it as much as he does. Here's just a few examples:

Royce will be benched... (He was in the game the next day)

Thomas will continue to play first base... (that didn't last long)

I pulled him because it's harder to get guys out the fourth time through the lineup... (yet he lets Colon face Bonds a fourth time)

I'm 99.9% sure that Burly will start tomorrow...

I like to tinker. It doesn't work half the time though... (paraphrase)




I sometimes wonder if he actually listens to what is coming out of his mouth. :?:

idseer
08-29-2003, 11:03 AM
would be an interesting poll question.

i'd say he's blown a good 15 to 20% in the last 3 years alone.
throw in 33-1/3% in the '00 playoffs.

jabrch
08-29-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
...how many of them do you think are directly attributable to Jerry Manuel blowing the game in whatever way?

I agree that Jerry has been a terrible manager and that he deserves a large chunk of the blame. However, NONE of the losses are DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE to him. Ultimately, he doesn't throw the ball, he doesn't catch the ball and he doesn't hit the ball. I blame the guys for the first half. Sure JM didn't help the situation. But he isn't the reason Konerko is hitting under .250. He isn't the reason Jimenez was terrible. He isn't the reason Rowand had to be sent down. He isn't the reason Crede didn't decide to wake up until mid-august.

I blame JM for being a terrible manager and making terrible decisions. He certainly didn't put the club in the best position to win. HOWEVER, THE RESPONSIBILITY TO WIN OR LOSE SHOULD BE 100% SHOULDERED BY THE PLAYERS. Most of them would probably agree with that also.

ssang
08-29-2003, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by steff
LOL.. the fiasco. Ignore the fact that Bonds K'd in his previous at bats. Unreal.

Hey Steff, sweetie, I think you meant to put this in teal. Anyways, I don't care how many times he struck out previously that evening. With a man on 2nd and no one on first and Barry FRIGGIN' Bonds representing the tying run in the 9th......YOU WALK HIM!!! He's the greatest hitter since BABE RUTH and he's damn clutch too. So YES this game was a fiasco. You = wrong

harwar
08-29-2003, 11:52 AM
Theres' only a handfull of times where i've looked over and said that Manuel just had a good game,but the games where i screamed that we lost because the manager has no clue are too many to count.
I don't count the infamous Bonds' game as one of the bad ones.I was watching the local giants broadcast for that game and the announcers were all upset that Manuel didn't have Colon walk Bonds because they were scared too death that he would strike out again.I think the giants were just gonna win that night,look what happened to Marte,it almost destroyed his confidence.Also,while we are on that subject i think that we are seeing,in Bonds,the best hitter ever in MLB.

maurice
08-29-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by harwar
i think that we are seeing,in Bonds,the best hitter ever in MLB.

That's why you intentionally walk him with the game on the line.

Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
...how many of them do you think are directly attributable to Jerry Manuel blowing the game in whatever way?

It's impossible to say. I will, however, venture a conservative estimate that JM, PK, and BK combined have cost the Sox about 10 wins. Given three average replacements, even from within the Sox organization, the Sox would have a huge lead right now.

GoSox2K3
08-29-2003, 12:54 PM
The 2 that really stand out are yesterday and that Sunday game in Seattle where he had the B squad playing.

It's one thing to have to make managerial decisions in the middle of the game that, in hindsight, didn't work out. BUT, yesterday's decision (and more importantly, his apparent rationale) to start Cotts and the decision against Seattle to give 4 (i think it was 4) starters the day off were damaging because Manual seemed to write off those games ahead of time.

That's not to say we were guaranteed a loss in those 2 games or that we were guaranteed a victory with our best lineup in. But, the problem is that Manual seemed to concede those games ahead of time while we were in a tight pennant race. I don't see other winning managers making those moves. It's one thing if Buerhle was sore or if Manual's rationale was that Mark really needed another day's rest to keep him healthy. BUT THAT WAS NOT HIS RATIONALE! It was clear from his statements that his decision was based on the fact that we already clinched 2 out of 3 from the Yankees. What if we lost on Wed. night? Would Buerhle's arm suddenly need less rest?

Regarding that Seattle game - it was just a couple of weeks after the All Star break and he decides that half of our lineup needs a rest on the same day. Players do need to rest at some point, but that didn't seem to be the time.

It seems to me like there is some basic flaw in logic going on in Manual's head about the importance of giving the team it's best chance to win each game. No manager is perfect, but I don't see Sweet Lou or LaRussa or even Dusty making these same type of boneheaded decisions.

Hokiesox
08-29-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Let's see...

1. Today's game.

2. The game in Seattle when he used the "B" lineup.

3. The third Cubs game at the Urinal when he pulled Colon.

4. A Saturday game at Tampa Bay when he kept Maggs on the bench until the ninth, when Ordonez hit solo home run as a pinch-hitter.

The thing of it is, if the Sox lose this division by one or two games, the first thing I will think of will be games like these. The Sox have more than enough talent to win this division EASILY. Why aren't they doing it?

Here's my best guess:

:jerry

"I want to make sure everyone feels good about themselves. The goal in baseball is to be considerate of every player's feelings. It's so sad when someone sits in the dugout crying. Royce had that problem a lot, so I took him out for ice cream. Then I put him in the lineup for the rest of the year. Don't stories like this just warm your heart?"

Don't forget the game when he pulled garland in the 7th after garland had cruised and only gave up one run. The bullpen gave up 9 the rest of the way, or something like that. that was against the royals, wasn't it?

duke of dorwood
08-29-2003, 02:14 PM
Between 15 and 20

duke of dorwood
08-29-2003, 02:15 PM
:firejerry

gosox41
08-29-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by steff
Ya know what.. these guys are professionals who get paid a LOT of money to play a kids game. They should be performing no matter what the lineup, where they play, who's pitching, etc, etc..

Blame JM all you want, afterall it's the easiest thing to do.. but try for a second to remember that he's not the one tossing the ball or swinging the bat.

For hitters, timing is everything. Hitting BP is important, but in most cases is not like a game situation. Players need to get in a groove and knwo their role in order to make them more effective.

Bob