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View Full Version : Kip....D. Wells...C. Lee...........


MaggPipes
08-26-2001, 03:43 PM
Here is my take on these players as of now.........

Kip Wells
- He has pitched excellent out of the pen for a while now, and his fastball has hit 97 atleast once...i was impressed, not only that, he had his AWESOME curve going, and for strikes consistently...i think the kid deserves another shot at the rotation...put Wright in long relief, and let him get his kinks worked out there...

David Wells-decline his option, and work out an incentive laden contract like he wants.....i sure hope we can do that....can you imagine what a rotation would be like with Buehrle and a healthy David Wells being the #2!!!!!!

Carlos Lee
-I am all for trading him....here is why....there is no room for him here....i want to see this as the starting outfield next year.....LF Rowand/Borchard CF Borchard/Rowand RF Magglio.......We can get a ton for Lee, becuase of his bat we don't need the DH that he is....our OF D would be much improved with either Rowand or Borchard in Left rather than Lee....

Alan Embree
-Cut him....eat his salary and re-call ginter or someone else....

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-26-2001, 03:48 PM
Ginter in the minors??!?!?!? Why?!?!? He's twice the pitcher Embree is & Embree's still pitching for us. That's the twisted Sox management for ya.

KempersRS
08-26-2001, 03:50 PM
Kip Wells
He has pitched excellent out of the pen for a while now, and his fastball has hit 97 atleast once...i was impressed, not only that, he had his AWESOME curve going, and for strikes consistently...i think the kid deserves another shot at the rotation...put Wright in long relief, and let him get his kinks worked out there...

Here is the thing on Kip, never say he is doing well or he will choke. Hence the signature. :)

Pete Ward
08-26-2001, 03:51 PM
How about C Lee to Pitt? Lets get the Catcher Kendall.

MaggPipes
08-26-2001, 03:52 PM
well i said it, and kip just pitched a good 8th inning....i think Jerry Manuel has made him into the set-up man....not a bad idea...for now....but we need him starting...

Jerry_Manuel
08-26-2001, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by MaggPipes
We can get a ton for Lee, becuase of his bat we don't need the DH that he is....our OF D would be much improved with either Rowand or Borchard in Left rather than Lee....

Alan Embree
-Cut him....eat his salary

No way in hell do you trade Lee, if anyone you deal Konerko. Lee has a much bigger upside then Konerko. I don't trust Williams to get equal value for Lee for another thing. And as far as Embree goes:

:reinsy
Eat his salary? That's a good one!

Jerry_Manuel
08-26-2001, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
Ginter in the minors??!?!?!? Why?!?!? He's twice the pitcher Embree is & Embree's still pitching for us. That's the twisted Sox management for ya.

Yeah they sent him down to make room for Pulispher.

KempersRS
08-26-2001, 03:54 PM
No way in hell do you trade Lee, if anyone you deal Konerko. Lee has a much bigger upside then Konerko. I don't trust Williams to get equal value for Lee for another thing.

Yeah, but KW wouldn't get a fair deal for Konerko either. We pretty much have to win with what he have and what is in the minors cause Kenny sure as hell ain't gonna save the day.

MaggPipes
08-26-2001, 03:54 PM
no....YOU TRADE LEE before Konerko....who has had the better year????? More HR, about the same average, and is younger...if i am not mistaken Konerko is all those things, and he plays better D than Lee, trade Carlos Lee, with his high ceiling we may be able to get Kendal, becuase Pittsburgh has a FINE young C prospect in JR House, and he is going to be awesome.......

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-26-2001, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


No way in hell do you trade Lee, if anyone you deal Konerko. Lee has a much bigger upside then Konerko. I don't trust Williams to get equal value for Lee for another thing. And as far as Embree goes:



Trade Konerko? You mean the guy who leads the team in homeruns & is right behind maggs for the team RBI lead?? Nope, you trade Lee because we have Rowand waiting in the wings to play Left. Who would you have play 1st next season? Thomas?? Oh please spare me.

Jerry_Manuel
08-26-2001, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
Yeah, but KW wouldn't get a fair deal for Konerko either. We pretty much have to win with what he have and what is in the minors cause Kenny sure as hell ain't gonna save the day.

Well would rather get taken on a deal for Konerko or taken on a deal for Lee?

Jerry_Manuel
08-26-2001, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
Trade Konerko? You mean the guy who leads the team in homeruns & is right behind maggs for the team RBI lead?? Nope, you trade Lee because we have Rowand waiting in the wings to play Left. Who would you have play 1st next season? Thomas?? Oh please spare me.

Don't get to attached to Rowand, it wouldn't surprise me if they dealt him.

MaggPipes
08-26-2001, 03:59 PM
you trade Carlos Lee.......Konerko is what 25??????? Come on, Lee is clearly the one that needs to go, we need to get a good OF D to support our young pitchers....and if you trade Koneko you have 2 wholes at a postitions....Lee at LF and Thomas at1b is Terrible i want Rowand in Left, and Konerko at 1b....Konerko has a way better arm, and a better glove, as Rowand has better range , steadier glover, stronger arm , and is faster than Lee, and hits for a better average....

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-26-2001, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Don't get to attached to Rowand, it wouldn't surprise me if they dealt him.

No chance. What do you think they'd want to trade him for anyway? We have plenty of young pitchers, & why trade one good younf position player for another one? He's staying.

KempersRS
08-26-2001, 04:02 PM
Don't get to attached to Rowand, it wouldn't surprise me if they dealt him.

Very true. As much as I like Rowand and his attitude so far, it doesn't seem like he is in the plans. Borchard has CF locked up unless something big happens and Lee isn't really on the trading block right at this moment. Rowand or Lee will go, I would guess it would be Rowand.

Jerry_Manuel
08-26-2001, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by NUKE_CLEVELAND
No chance. What do you think they'd want to trade him for anyway? We have plenty of young pitchers, & why trade one good younf position player for another one? He's staying.

They almost dealt him to the Rockies last winter. I'm just saying that since he's shown he can hit it wouldn't shock me to see him dealt.

MaggPipes
08-26-2001, 04:05 PM
no...you need to move LEE, his D is terrible...it would take pressure off of Borchard if Rowand is in Left with the better range. that way Joe doesn't have to cover as much ground....besides you get a TON more for Lee in a trade right now that you do Rowand.....Carlos Lee better not be on the Sox roster after this winter...............

KempersRS
08-26-2001, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by MaggPipes
no...you need to move LEE, his D is terrible...it would take pressure off of Borchard if Rowand is in Left with the better range. that way Joe doesn't have to cover as much ground....besides you get a TON more for Lee in a trade right now that you do Rowand.....Carlos Lee better not be on the Sox roster after this winter...............

If Lee ever learns to be patient at the plate, he is going to be a dangerous hitter. He is a good hitter, but his BA suffers from crappy strikezone judgement and it kills his OBA even more. Teach him and eye at the plate and you can bet on it he will be hitting .300, 25+ HR's every year.

Pete Ward
08-26-2001, 04:10 PM
Remember, C Lee came up as a 3B. He could probably play 1st. I think he would be even worse than Paul K defensively, but its an option.

I'd still trade C. Lee for Kendall (Pitt)

How can we get B.Giles of Pitt to play LF for us also!

NUKE_CLEVELAND
08-26-2001, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Pete Ward
Remember, C Lee came up as a 3B. He could probably play 1st. I think he would be even worse than Paul K defensively, but its an option.




C-Lee at 1st base?? That's a bit of a stretch pal.

Bmr31
08-26-2001, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by MaggPipes
no....YOU TRADE LEE before Konerko....who has had the better year????? More HR, about the same average, and is younger...if i am not mistaken Konerko is all those things, and he plays better D than Lee, trade Carlos Lee, with his high ceiling we may be able to get Kendal, becuase Pittsburgh has a FINE young C prospect in JR House, and he is going to be awesome.......


ummmm are you watching the same sox games i am? Lee is a much more consistent hitter and is better on defense. THere is noone worse than Konerko on defense, other than jose and frank.....

voodoochile
08-26-2001, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



ummmm are you watching the same sox games i am? Lee is a much more consistent hitter and is better on defense. THere is noone worse than Konerko on defense, other than jose and frank.....

Lee has actually been developing into a solid LF, IMO. His arm is improving all the time, he has excellent speed and he has been learning more about postioning himself. Personally I don't want to trade either one of them and would prefer to make an offer of Vining/Ginter/Fogg/etc. Plus Paul, Rowand, Singleton, etc. to make a trade. Pitching prospects always have a solid value and you just know there are idiots who would take Paul on potential and Singleton based on his speed and ability to hit .280. Of course I am not sure that KW is the man to make those trades.

When you throw in Wunsch and possibly Parque, the Sox have plenty of "throw away" depth to package together in any trade, without having to dump any of the young stars we have. No need to trade Lee or Konehead, IMO...

Tragg
08-26-2001, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


Very true. As much as I like Rowand and his attitude so far, it doesn't seem like he is in the plans. Borchard has CF locked up unless something big happens and Lee isn't really on the trading block right at this moment. Rowand or Lee will go, I would guess it would be Rowand.

Is Borchard really a CF? Can he cover the ground? Can he rocket throws home?

If so, then I say trade lee or konerko (lee probably can play a good first) and let Rowan play left.

The reason to trade lee or konerko is that they will bring a lot more in return than will rowand. We still need major help up the middle and maybe a left reliever (we don't seem to have candidates in the minors) other than the throwaways embree and pulsator that kenny williams has been picking up.

LongDistanceFan
08-26-2001, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


Is Borchard really a CF? Can he cover the ground? Can he rocket throws home?

If so, then I say trade lee or konerko (lee probably can play a good first) and let Rowan play left.

The reason to trade lee or konerko is that they will bring a lot more in return than will rowand. We still need major help up the middle and maybe a left reliever (we don't seem to have candidates in the minors) other than the throwaways embree and pulsator that kenny williams has been picking up.

Borchard has a cannon for an arm. His "d" is above average with a very good first step. However, this may be good in his first part of his career. But can he keep this up in the long run?

Randar68
08-27-2001, 10:49 AM
Konerko has a way better arm, and a better glove, as Rowand has better range , steadier glover, stronger arm , and is faster than Lee, and hits for a better average....


Well, don't get ahead of yourself here.

1) Rowand hasn't yet had 200 AB's in the majors yet.
2) Lee has more power potential
3) Lee has the better arm, IMO
4) Lee IS a minor Liability in Left, but he is mroe established and experienced.
5) I'd rather trade Ray Durham than Lee
6) I'd rather trade Konerko, despite his improved defense and great arm for a 1B'man.
7) When Lee plays winter ball in Venezuela or Panama, I'd like to see him get time at 1B to see what he can do
8) You CAN NOT trade Konerko and expect Thomas to play everyday or Lee to move to yet another new position and play good defense.


Despite my like for Carlos and I still think 2 years from now, he will be a .300-35-100 guy, he has more value and could help us fill our holes at 2B and C and possibly SS. By all means, though, if Ray and Carlos are dealt, it better be for some A-1 prime talent that's ready to contribute ASAP! at one of 2B, C, SS....

Randar68
08-27-2001, 10:51 AM
and maybe a left reliever (we don't seem to have candidates in the minors) other than the throwaways embree and pulsator that kenny williams has been picking up.

Why does everyone forget Osuna, Parque, and Wunsch????

How many Lefty releivers do you guys want next year, 5??????????

Spiff
08-27-2001, 11:00 AM
Yes let's trade Lee and watch him develop into an all-star somewhere else. I don't think the Sox need to trade either Lee or Konerko. Remember, Frank isn't gonna be around forever, and if Lee is so bad in left he can DH when Frank retires.

And for the record, Lee is 3 months younger than Konerko.

Paulwny
08-27-2001, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00
Yes let's trade Lee and watch him develop into an all-star somewhere else. I don't think the Sox need to trade either Lee or Konerko. Remember, Frank isn't gonna be around forever, and if Lee is so bad in left he can DH when Frank retires.

And for the record, Lee is 3 months younger than Konerko.

Again totally agree. Everyone hates Lee's "D" because of the effect it may have on a young staff yet many of these same people want Jose at ss with all his errors. Where's the logic?

LongDistanceFan
08-27-2001, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Again totally agree. Everyone hates Lee's "D" because of the effect it may have on a young staff yet many of these same people want Jose at ss with all his errors. Where's the logic? Its not that i hate him of his "D". I just seeing us getting top value for him and free up the "of" for rowand and borchard. We need some prospects esp at cat.

Randar, what are your thoughts of any gonazales in the minors that is ss and hummel at 2b?

What i read for gonzo is he may be the real deal at ss. Last yr 4 or 5 rounder.

Dadawg_77
08-27-2001, 12:02 PM
The thing with Lee as has been pointed out, the Sox have stacked somewhat in the outfiled. Lee should make good trade bait to close up a or couple of holes on the team, SS, C and 2B. I would like the Sox to keep Lee but if the Sox can better the team by trading him so be it.

Comparing downgrade from Carlos to Aaron form the upgrade of Royce to Jose. Clayton can't hit Frank's weight and that my limitus test for who should play and who shouldn't. Now don't take it wrongm I'm not saying Frank's fat but he built like a fullback. So if you can't hit 250 you belong on the bench, no matter how overated you are in the field.

Another note, hey the Mets are trying to unload Robin, maybe the Sox should see if they could work out a deal to bring him back home. It would be a good PR move, not that JR knows anyting about good PR, and bring in a soild good guy veteran that Crede could learn under next year. I hoping the Sox will contend for it all, and not sure how a Crede will react to the pressure. Robin would take some of it off Crede's shoulder and let develope at his pace.

Paulwny
08-27-2001, 12:04 PM
How many years of rebuilding, it won't take much to win the central next year the div. is bad. Lee's reaching his prime years. I've heard the following from Yank,Tribe Tiger and Jay radio and tv announcers (sports people so who knows if they know), "He looks like a young Manny",When he learns the pitchers in the league he'll put up Frank Thomas like numbers", There's great potential here".

I can't see trading Lee just so we can see what Rowand and
Bouchard can do. I fear trading Lee could turn into another Sosa trade.

Hundley for Prez
08-27-2001, 12:05 PM
I have no problem trading Lee as long as we get good value. His lack of improvement in plate patience is a good indiactor he will not become an overwheming superstar, unless he gains 50 lbs in muscle in a conspicuously short period of time and can start hitting bloopers into the basket in right center. I don't think Kendall is good value, though, he is having a horrible season this year, and he has spent a good chunk playing in LF. It's not out of the realm of possibility that the wear and tear of catching has caused him to lose a lot of his hitting skill. If he's an outfielder, he is way below average. The Pirates are still afraid J.R. House will go back to college to play football, a la Josh "I can't hit a curve ball or a wide receiver" Booty, and Quincy "Only the Cubs could have thought a .175 hitter was worth a second round pick" and "What, Me Starting?" Carter. House will probably be a good college QB, since he's also good at baseball. The other two pretty well sucked at both.
I think Lee has a much better future than Rowand, but I'd rather see us keep Rowand around until he proves that he is either a worthy starting OF or a decent backup. He could easily pull a Brian Simmons and be a marginal player. I hope not.

Randar68
08-27-2001, 12:07 PM
Randar, what are your thoughts of any gonazales in the minors that is ss and hummel at 2b?

Well, so far I am extremely impressed by Gonzalez. I would relly like to see him finish up the season at Bristol, but he'll likely stay at Arizona to end the season with some confidence. He has all the tools, and although he was rated only in the mid-teens for SS prospects in the draft, he has been outstanding. He is big for a SS, in the A-Rod/Jete mold, at 6'3" 180, and will likely grow to about 200 pounds by the time he'd be breaking the majors. Good quickness and a very strong arm, the Sox actually drafted him as a defensive specialist, but he has shown that he can hit, and hit for power. Lately, he has improved his K:BB ratio dramatically, and after the first half of their season, has about an equal K:BB ratio. I'm really excited about him, and hope he plays full-season baseball next year, hopefully at Kannapolis and we'll really be able to see what he can do. He has a high error total, but like most young SS's, many are judgement mistakes and mental, not as much physical.

Hummel, I beleive, might be able to step in and have a season like Durham is having now, next year. He isn't as good on the short RF fly as Durham, but nobody is. He's solid defensively there, but not spectacular, and he turns the DP well. He doesn't walk a TON, but doesn't strike out a lot. at 6'2" 200 pounds, he's not the prototype second baseman, but I have heard comparisons to a young Jeff Kent.

Randar68
08-27-2001, 12:14 PM
I can't see trading Lee just so we can see what Rowand and Bouchard can do. I fear trading Lee could turn into another Sosa trade.

Moi Aussie!!!! (Me, too, for the French impaired)

You can't trade a proven .300-25-100 hitter that's only 24 to make room for a guy who hasn't shown that in barely 100+ at-bats and is older.....

FarWestChicago
08-27-2001, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Moi Aussie!!!! (Me, too, for the French impaired)

You can't trade a proven .300-25-100 hitter that's only 24 to make room for a guy who hasn't shown that in barely 100+ at-bats and is older.....

You guys are right about this one. I cringe at the trade Lee because we can get something for him comments. But, there is some logic there. However, the trade Caballo so Rowand can play sentiment is certain to lead to:

:ohno

Randar68
08-27-2001, 12:27 PM
Can I get an Amen, FWC????

More info on Gonzalez from BA's pre-draft scouting reports:

ĽAndy Gonzalez. The second-best Puerto Rican prospect in the draft, Gonzalez is one of three top prospects from the island playing at Florida Air Academy. His best tool is his arm, and he has a low-90s fastball, but he has little interest in pitching. He prefers playing shortstop, though he's 6-foot-3 and some scouts don't think he gets down on balls well enough to stay there. He does have the hands and range to play short. He doesn't have the power to play third base, so the team that drafts him will have to envision him as a shortstop. The Dodgers have expressed a lot of interest and could take him in the third or fourth round

Rated the 17th best SS prospect and 19th best out of Florida, mostly due to his inexperience there and positional ?-marks....

voodoochile
08-27-2001, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


You guys are right about this one. I cringe at the trade Lee because we can get something for him comments. But, there is some logic there.

Okay, what can we get for the players we ARE willing to trade?

Personally the players I am willing to part with right now are:

Ginter, Vining, Fogg, Rowand (if necessary), Clayton (duh), Paul (see Clayton), Singleton, Parque (see Rowand), Howrey, Lowe...

There are probably more, but can we manage to acquire a veteran starting catcher, a veteran innings eater (I still want Boomer back), a veteran SS and/or a veteran CF for any combination of the above?

We may not think these guys have much talent (with the exceptions of rowand, Lowe, Howrey and Parque, but the question is are there dumbass GM's out there that would consider Singleton to be an asset? How about the multitalented Mr. Paul? Potential is a double edged sword. You can stab yourself with it, or stab another team with it if they are willing to look at potential when they deal.

I would love to hear from Randar on this especially, because I think he has a very sane grasp on trade value and player worth. The rest of you I will welcome your thoughts also...

Randar68
08-27-2001, 12:47 PM
I would love to hear from Randar on this especially, because I think he has a very sane grasp on trade value and player worth. The rest of you I will welcome your thoughts also...

Ginter and Fogg have good value, as either would easily be in most team's top 5 prospects. Vining is a Lefty reliever, need I say more?

Rowand has good/not-great trade value, while not star potential, could easily be the starting LF'er (not sold on CF) for quite a few teams, hem, NS of the city....

Paul would get nothing more that a Jeff Abbott-type deal...unrealized potential for unrealized potential.

Parque and Singleton are about equal. While Parque is a young lefty who has won 14 games, he doesn't go deep in games and is coming off surgery. Singleton can play outstanging D in CF or Left and hit .280 from the left side, not too bad.

Howry and Lowe are Howry and Lowe.

You're not going to get any superstars trading combinations of this bunch. Lowe, Howry, Parque, and Singleton have the most value as Veteran help. Vining, Ginter, and Fogg all have decent value as prospects, although all are going to be bullpen material in the majors.

You would be able to get average veteran help with some of these guys, but you might be able to really get a couple good players in other situation, such as too much dough in arbitration, or backed up at positions (SD has 4 top players all at 3B!!) and Colorado would likely want young pitching for any deal for any of their young stud SS prospects...

Parque, Rowand, Howry, Lowe, Singleton, Ginter, Vining have the most value.....

Out of this group, you'd probably have to package 2 of Rowand, Singleton, Parque, Ginter, or Lowe to get anything of significant MLB value....

Personally, I think Lowe is too valuable in a middle relief role, and would rather not trade him, as he's proven he can't handle starting. Howry, Clayton, Singleton, your table awaits you, just not in Chicago.

Bmr31
08-27-2001, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Okay, what can we get for the players we ARE willing to trade?

Personally the players I am willing to part with right now are:

Ginter, Vining, Fogg, Rowand (if necessary), Clayton (duh), Paul (see Clayton), Singleton, Parque (see Rowand), Howrey, Lowe...

There are probably more, but can we manage to acquire a veteran starting catcher, a veteran innings eater (I still want Boomer back), a veteran SS and/or a veteran CF for any combination of the above?

We may not think these guys have much talent (with the exceptions of rowand, Lowe, Howrey and Parque, but the question is are there dumbass GM's out there that would consider Singleton to be an asset? How about the multitalented Mr. Paul? Potential is a double edged sword. You can stab yourself with it, or stab another team with it if they are willing to look at potential when they deal.

I would love to hear from Randar on this especially, because I think he has a very sane grasp on trade value and player worth. The rest of you I will welcome your thoughts also...


Voodoo, there isnt much trade value there.....

Paulwny
08-27-2001, 01:02 PM
VC the type of player we all want will never happen. If we keep Wells I don't see JR freeing up money for any more veteran help. You can't trade Lee for some minor league "maybe" as some have proposed.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-27-2001, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny

I can't see trading Lee just so we can see what Rowand and
Bouchard can do. I fear trading Lee could turn into another Sosa trade.


Carlos Lee could well be the next Manny Ramirez. He's a young established player and figures to keep getting better (i.e. learn how to take more pitches).

IMO, the problem isn't in the outfield, it's at 1B/DH. We're well on our way towards having a very productive outfield for years to come. Meanwhile first base & DH is a complete mess with everyone simply hoping Frank returns next spring fully recovered.

So we've got Konerko, Liefer, Baines, Canseco, and Lord knows what other spare parts cluttering up the roster. The best of them is Konerko and he is no great shake, either with the bat or in the field. We need to get better there quickly.

I would trade Konerko while he still has some value. After another mediocre season with the Sox, other teams will be wise to him by 2003.

voodoochile
08-27-2001, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



Voodoo, there isnt much trade value there.....

Ahhhh... IYO.

That wan't the question though. Would another teams GM be willing to take a flyer on Howry, Parque and Ginter for a veteran starter, for example.

Would they be willing to part with a veteran CF for Rowand, Singleton and Ginter?

How about a veteran catcher for paul, Ginter and Howry?

Would someone else still consider Howry a prospect? How about Paul? It isn't our perception of them that matters. My bet is that a team would be willing to sacrafice some quality for some depth and take a chance. Will it happen? Who knows? But, all of those players have shown flashes at the big league level. Sometimes that is all it takes to make them worth something to someone else.

For Example:

Ginter, Vining and Paul should be enough to land a veteran catcher if the team we trade with is looking for prospect depth (make it MJ instead of Paul if the catcher acquired can start everyday). By offering a player who has shown some talent at the given postion we are trading for, the deal becomes more attractive (Fordyce/CJ). It isn't like the other team would have to play their AA catcher if they gave away their catcher to us... They'd have Paul/MJ (plus two AAA prospect pitchers) (this is an example only, so don't rip the trade for being too much or too little please). A sucker is born every minute and some of them ARE manning the GM positions around the league...

FarWestChicago
08-27-2001, 01:18 PM
A sucker is born every minute and some of them ARE manning the GM positions around the league...

Yep. A few teams got fleeced at the trading deadline (just ask ma-gaga). It happens all the time. We just need to get on the right side of a fleecing.

Bmr31
08-27-2001, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Ahhhh... IYO.

That wan't the question though. Would another teams GM be willing to take a flyer on Howry, Parque and Ginter for a veteran starter, for example.

Would they be willing to part with a veteran CF for Rowand, Singleton and Ginter?

How about a veteran catcher for paul, Ginter and Howry?

Would someone else still consider Howry a prospect? How about Paul? It isn't our perception of them that matters. My bet is that a team would be willing to sacrafice some quality for some depth and take a chance. Will it happen? Who knows? But, all of those players have shown flashes at the big league level. Sometimes that is all it takes to make them worth something to someone else.

For Example:

Ginter, Vining and Paul should be enough to land a veteran catcher if the team we trade with is looking for prospect depth (make it MJ instead of Paul if the catcher acquired can start everyday). By offering a player who has shown some talent at the given postion we are trading for, the deal becomes more attractive (Fordyce/CJ). It isn't like the other team would have to play their AA catcher if they gave away their catcher to us... They'd have Paul/MJ (plus two AAA prospect pitchers) (this is an example only, so don't rip the trade for being too much or too little please). A sucker is born every minute and some of them ARE manning the GM positions around the league...


who knows. I just know if i were a GM i would give a lot for those players...

PaleHoseGeorge
08-27-2001, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Yep. A few teams got fleeced at the trading deadline (just ask ma-gaga). It happens all the time. We just need to get on the right side of a fleecing.


Okay, what exactly makes you think our GM is the one to negotiate a deal that doesn't get our Sox fleeced?

"If Selig hadn't ruled 'caveat emptor', I would be a giant 0-fer in deals so far!"
:KW

Jjav829
08-27-2001, 01:25 PM
Carlos Lee could well be the next Manny Ramirez. He's a young established player and figures to keep getting better (i.e. learn how to take more pitches).

It seems to me that Carlos is slowly learning to take more pitches than before. He is starting to take more walks. What Ward has to do is explain to him that taking more walks will help him get better pitches to hit. If a pitcher knows he doesn't walk a lot he will try to take advantage of that weakness by throwing him pitches out of the zone and getting him to chase them. If that pitcher knows that Lee is just as willing to stand at the plate and take 4 pitches that are not in the zone then he is going to have to throw him better pitchers.

Also to the person who keeps saying that Konerko is younger, try looking it up. They are both 25. IMO Lee has a better upside than Konerko. Neither of them is a gold glover fielding. You could move Lee to first if Konerko was traded. They both have about the same power. Lee may have a little more. Lee certainly has the advantage in speed, and is probably a better all around hitter. He still needs to make some improvements, but he should be a guy who will consistently put up .300, 30, 100.

FarWestChicago
08-27-2001, 01:29 PM
Okay, what exactly makes you think our GM is the one to negotiate a deal that doesn't get our Sox fleeced?

Absolutely nothing. But, he's all we have for now (and who knows how long) so you just have to hope for the best.

:reinsy

You Left Coast guys probably think Brian Sabean and Billy Beane are good GM's. KW blows either of them away!

voodoochile
08-27-2001, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829


It seems to me that Carlos is slowly learning to take more pitches than before. He is starting to take more walks. What Ward has to do is explain to him that taking more walks will help him get better pitches to hit. If a pitcher knows he doesn't walk a lot he will try to take advantage of that weakness by throwing him pitches out of the zone and getting him to chase them. If that pitcher knows that Lee is just as willing to stand at the plate and take 4 pitches that are not in the zone then he is going to have to throw him better pitchers.

Also to the person who keeps saying that Konerko is younger, try looking it up. They are both 25. IMO Lee has a better upside than Konerko. Neither of them is a gold glover fielding. You could move Lee to first if Konerko was traded. They both have about the same power. Lee may have a little more. Lee certainly has the advantage in speed, and is probably a better all around hitter. He still needs to make some improvements, but he should be a guy who will consistently put up .300, 30, 100.


ARRRRRRRRRRRGH! Why do we want to trade either one of them? Will somebody please explain to me? How did we go from pennant contenders to needing to dump players to get better in one year filled with tons of agonizing injuries?

Let this team grow... get it some veteran depth (Boomer would be a great start) and sit back and enjoy the ride.

I just don't get it...

Bmr31
08-27-2001, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile



ARRRRRRRRRRRGH! Why do we want to trade either one of them? Will somebody please explain to me? How did we go from pennant contenders to needing to dump players to get better in one year filled with tons of agonizing injuries?

Let this team grow... get it some veteran depth (Boomer would be a great start) and sit back and enjoy the ride.

I just don't get it...

I think guys realize we need some more guys who can field instead of all the dh/1b types we have now...

Paulwny
08-27-2001, 01:49 PM
I'm with you VC!!!!!

Joel Perez
08-27-2001, 01:54 PM
For the 2001 Winter trade talks...

Dump Jose Canseco
Dump (trade) Frank Thomas

Lineup (If that happens)
1B Paul Konerko
2B Ray Durham
3B Joe Crede/Herbert Perry
SS Jose Valentin
LF Aaron Rowand
CF Chris Singleton (if Joe Borchard needs a year at AAA)
RF Maggio Ordonez
DH Carlos Lee
C Mark Johnson

Thoughts???

I don't know what we can get for Frank the Tank though--and Tank is not to put him down--he's built like one.

voodoochile
08-27-2001, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


I think guys realize we need some more guys who can field instead of all the dh/1b types we have now...

Didn't we try that this year? Isn't Clayton going to win a gold glove? That really worked now didn't it? Let's put an offensive machine out there with good pitching and see how far it takes us? Forgive me for being ignorant, but why did we lose those games in Seattle last year? Yeah, the d could have been better, but man if we just score a few more runs a game or have a slightly deeper bullpen, we win that series. Are we really going to become an NL club playing in the AL? Is that what we should be doing?

IT'S THE AMERICAN LEAGUE!!! Score some runs, pitch well, go to the playoffs. It's that f'n simple...

voodoochile
08-27-2001, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
For the 2001 Winter trade talks...

Dump Jose Canseco
Dump (trade) Frank Thomas

Lineup (If that happens)
1B Paul Konerko
2B Ray Durham
3B Joe Crede/Herbert Perry
SS Jose Valentin
LF Aaron Rowand
CF Chris Singleton (if Joe Borchard needs a year at AAA)
RF Maggio Ordonez
DH Carlos Lee
C Mark Johnson

Thoughts???

I don't know what we can get for Frank the Tank though--and Tank is not to put him down--he's built like one.

Rowand over Thomas? Man these suggestions keep getting worse and worse...

PaleHoseGeorge
08-27-2001, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

ARRRRRRRRRRRGH! Why do we want to trade either one of them? Will somebody please explain to me?

The young pitchers more than made up for all the arm and shoulder injuries. The only injury that really affected the team was Frank's shoulder. Meanwhile the team has played like crap at the plate and in the field.

Was 2000 a fluke? I don't think so. Hell, just getting rid of Royce Clayton would be a major upgrade in my book. Sort of like getting rid of Jaime Navarro was addition by subtraction for the '00 team.

Doing nothing smacks of Cubness. We all remember Lynch & MacFail thinking they had the right ingredients to repeat their stupid '98 wild-card performance. It was our Sox (and the mighty Mike Caruso) that torched that delusion!

Lee and Konerko have each had two full seasons to learn their positions and contribute to the team's winning efforts. We're dumb if we don't evaluate their progress and weigh possible alternatives.

I'm still waiting for Ron Schueler to get us to "point C". It's eleven years past due!

FarWestChicago
08-27-2001, 01:57 PM
Didn't we try that this year? Isn't Clayton going to win a gold glove? That really worked now didn't it? Let's put an offensive machine out there with good pitching and see how far it takes us? Forgive me for being ignorant, but why did we lose those games in Seattle last year? Yeah, the d could have been better, but man if we just score a few more runs a game or have a slightly deeper bullpen, we win that series.

I think our lack of offense this year has hurt us much more than our defense. But, I could be wrong.

FarWestChicago
08-27-2001, 02:00 PM
Lee and Konerko have each had two full seasons to learn their positions and contribute to the team's winning efforts. We're dumb if we don't evaluate their progress and weigh possible alternatives.

I still say move Konerko if you're going to move one of them. He is the slowest player in baseball. And Caballo is a much more consistent hitter.

voodoochile
08-27-2001, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


The young pitchers more than made up for all the arm and shoulder injuries. The only injury that really affected the team was Frank's shoulder. Meanwhile the team has played like crap at the plate and in the field.

Was 2000 a fluke? I don't think so. Hell, just getting rid of Royce Clayton would be a major upgrade in my book. Sort of like getting rid of Jaime Navarro was addition by subtraction for the '00 team.

Doing nothing smacks of Cubness. We all remember Lynch & MacFail thinking they had the right ingredients to repeat their stupid '98 wild-card performance. It was our Sox (and the mighty Mike Caruso) that torched that delusion!

Lee and Konerko have each had two full seasons to learn their positions and contribute to the team's winning efforts. We're dumb if we don't evaluate their progress and weigh possible alternatives.

I'm still waiting for Ron Schueler to get us to "point C". It's eleven years past due!

George, The loss of veteran pitchers helped us in the SP department (maybe) , and will definitely help us for years to come when the experience gained this year pays off. But the loss of the veteran pitchers killed us in the bullpen when the youngsters were forced into relief roles they were unfamiliar with and then forced to start when the other kids proved unworthy. If the Sox had a bullpen this season, we would be withing 3 games of first easily (It has cost us 5 games in the last few weeks alone).

To think that the loss of the veteran pitchers hasn't dramatially affected this team is being shortsighted, IMO.

And yes, Frank was a HUGE loss...

KVinc
08-27-2001, 04:04 PM
you can replace Konerko as good as he is because of Liefer(who has more pop than him) or Inglin who is basically a konerko except he will drive in more r.b.i.'s less power but will hit to right. Carlos Lee has potential to hit .330 30 to 35 homers 140 plus r.b.i.'s and .640 slugging percantage. as great of a player Pk is i see him maxing out as a 38 to 47 homer guy, with a .300 average 123 to 130 r.b.i. 100 k's and 84 bb. and a slugging percentage of maybe .600 but really in the .570's.

We really dont have to deal Konerko until he wants a contract somewhere in the ten year 100 plus million range. And Lees Defense will continue to improve only his third year in of,
his arm has gotten stronger in lf and his range is improving.

Jerry_Manuel
08-27-2001, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
"If Selig hadn't ruled 'caveat emptor', I would be a giant 0-fer in deals so far!"
:KW

George you can't be saying that he lost the Glover for Scott Eyre trade.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-27-2001, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


George you can't be saying that he lost the Glover for Scott Eyre trade.

Well, that's true. Hell, anything more than a bag of balls for Eyre would be a good trade for us, LOL!

So Kenny Williams is NOT 0-fer. He got a little infield nubber that dribbled past the pitcher's mound and stopped dead in the grass.

Kinda reminds me of his playing career.

:)

Jerry_Manuel
08-27-2001, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Kinda reminds me of his playing career.


I never saw him play but I heard he was pretty fast.
Well that is what Dan Beirnstein says so if it's wrong don't blame me.

Jjav829
08-27-2001, 04:49 PM
VC I never said I wanted to trade either Lee or Konerko. I like both of them, and I would love to keep them both. All I was saying is that if we had to trade one I would trade Konerko over Lee. They are both certainly good players. I was just defending Carlos because lately there has been too much talk of trading him. What I would like to see happen for next year is this.

Trade Durham, and see what we can get for him. Move Valentin to 2B. Sign Roger Cedeno to play CF. Thats it. Those would be my ideal moves. Will they happen? Probably not. I still think this lineup packs some punch in it, but we definately need a solid leadoff hitter to get on base for those power guys. One of the best examples is Luis Catillo. (of last year) He was a great leadoff hitter. He would start the game with a hit, steal second, and before there was an out he would be in scoring position. Then the second hitter could get him in. Thats what I want from a leadoff hitter. He should not be a guy who is hell bent on hitting a home run. Thats why I dont want Ray. And please don't even respond to this trying to tell me that we should let Ray bat third.

Dadawg_77
08-27-2001, 04:49 PM
I don't think if the Sox trade Konerko or Lee, they should get propects in return but for a proven major league star at a hole they have. That way you may be giving up the next Manny but you have a good vet filling a hole on the Sox. As long as guy the Sox trade for "betters" the Team more then its hurt by replacing Lee with Borchad or Rowland, Kenny should make the deal. I have been a Sox Fan all 23 years of my life, and still they have jewerly to look at. I want the Sox to win now and if Kenny can improve this team in anyway he should do it. Think what if the A's needed to drop Hudson or Moulder to resign Giambi, wouldn't you give up Lee in NY minute make the deal? I know its unrealistic, but its just example.


My Dream lineup next year would be...
C: Irod (Trade Lee and a pitiching prospect for him)
1B: Konerko
2B: Ray or Hummel
3B: Crede/Perry
SS: Valentin
LF: Borchard/Rowland
CF: Singleton
RF: Mags
DH: Thomas
4th OF: Rowland/Singleton
Util IF: Graf

Rotation:
Mark B.
David W./another Vet
Jim P.
John G.
Kip W.

Bullpen:
Howery
Osuna
Biddle
Wunch

Setup man:
Wright

Closer:
Foulke

Dadawg_77
08-27-2001, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by KVinc
you can replace Konerko as good as he is because of Liefer(who has more pop than him)

I hate to quote Dave Stewart, but honestly do you think Liefer, a carear minor leaguer, could hold Konerko jock strap? I don't think the Sox would miss Liefer if he was shipped out tomorrow.

KVinc
08-27-2001, 05:06 PM
notice i also said Inglin i know how terrible liefer is with the average

Dadawg_77
08-27-2001, 05:30 PM
Not just his avg, but his slg percent is lower Konerko's and liefer is two older the him. I don't know much about Inglin, but Paul has proven himself on the big league level.

Bmr31
08-27-2001, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Didn't we try that this year? Isn't Clayton going to win a gold glove? That really worked now didn't it? Let's put an offensive machine out there with good pitching and see how far it takes us? Forgive me for being ignorant, but why did we lose those games in Seattle last year? Yeah, the d could have been better, but man if we just score a few more runs a game or have a slightly deeper bullpen, we win that series. Are we really going to become an NL club playing in the AL? Is that what we should be doing?

IT'S THE AMERICAN LEAGUE!!! Score some runs, pitch well, go to the playoffs. It's that f'n simple...

pitching and defense wins. period. Baseball 101.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-27-2001, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Not just his avg, but his slg percent is lower Konerko's and liefer is two older the him. I don't know much about Inglin, but Paul has proven himself on the big league level.


For firstbasemen, Konerko has only proven to be at best mediocre. I'm sorry guys, but Konerko just hasn't produced at the level the league's top firstbasemen do. As for defense, he still makes obvious mistakes. That "ole" error against Oakland last week was typical.

Yes, Konerko is young and we can expect him to improve. But can anyone honestly see him becoming a player approaching Jason Giambi's production? No way.

The best thing about Konerko is his trade value; we can get something good for him. Then we spend the bucks for The Lumbering Ox!!!!!

Ah, dreams.

:)

Bmr31
08-27-2001, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge



For firstbasemen, Konerko has only proven to be at best mediocre. I'm sorry guys, but Konerko just hasn't produced at the level the league's top firstbasemen do. As for defense, he still makes obvious mistakes. That "ole" error against Oakland last week was typical.

Yes, Konerko is young and we can expect him to improve. But can anyone honestly see him becoming a player approaching Jason Giambi's production? No way.

The best thing about Konerko is his trade value; we can get something good for him. Then we spend the bucks for The Lumbering Ox!!!!!

Ah, dreams.


:)


konerko is a dime a dozen at 1B. In additon we got better guys we can play over there. (lee, frank). trade him.

FarWestChicago
08-27-2001, 06:43 PM
Then we spend the bucks for The Lumbering Ox!!!!!

Ah, dreams.


Man I would like to see The Lumbering Ox in a Sox uniform. That guy is a stud!!

Randar68
08-27-2001, 06:48 PM
Man I would like to see The Lumbering Ox in a Sox uniform. That guy is a stud!!


Rrrrrrrrright, guys.......I know you're just dreaming, but put down the crack pipe in your dreams and wake up....

FarWestChicago
08-27-2001, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



Rrrrrrrrright, guys.......I know you're just dreaming, but put down the crack pipe in your dreams and wake up....

Leave it to a friggin' engineer to take all the fun out of something. :)

Bmr31
08-27-2001, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



Rrrrrrrrright, guys.......I know you're just dreaming, but put down the crack pipe in your dreams and wake up....

we are overloaded at 1st anyways. what we need are two solid middle infielders. We get two, and we are championship contenders.

FarWestChicago
08-27-2001, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


we are overloaded at 1st anyways. what we need are two solid middle infielders. We get two, and we are championship contenders.

And here comes Mr. Parade Rain to join in and help douse the afternoon, naptime dreams of PHG and I. :)

Bmr31
08-27-2001, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


And here comes Mr. Parade Rain to join in and help douse the afternoon, naptime dreams of PHG and I. :)


Im not a dreamer, im a realist. This sox team is only a few players away, and its not at 1B that we need to improve......

PaleHoseGeorge
08-27-2001, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



Rrrrrrrrright, guys.......I know you're just dreaming, but put down the crack pipe in your dreams and wake up....

I've got one word for you: Albert Belle, $55 million.

Okay, it's more than one word!!!

:)

Jerry_Manuel
08-27-2001, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I've got one word for you: Albert Belle, $55 million.

Okay, it's more than one word!!!


:reinsy
"Way to have my back PHG! I'm still not going to sign any catcher that we draft."

longshot7
08-28-2001, 01:44 AM
ho hum...if anybody cares to scroll this far down...

I say keep Lee, Konerko, and (I know I'm in the minority here)...
Clayton. Look at that fielding percentage. Move Valentin to 2B, lose Durham, and keep the CF platoon of Singleton/Rowand.

Defense up the middle - that's what it's all about.

Damn, it's a good think we're not the GM.

btw, Kendall's not going anywhere - he signed a big contract in the offseason.

FarWestChicago
08-28-2001, 01:55 AM
Move Valentin to 2B, lose Durham

Actually, some of us have discussed this idea before. At least Manos has more range than the 3 feet Ray exhibits.

LongDistanceFan
08-28-2001, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Actually, some of us have discussed this idea before. At least Manos has more range than the 3 feet Ray exhibits. players to be traded,
jose c he is probably gone b/f the season is over.
j paul,
howry
c singleten(Sp)
rowand
clayton
durham,
now here is where it get tricky, who can really replace paul at first? But i do like lee and so i would say lets trade paul and keep lee. Even tho lee will bring in more for the buck.
the "OF" will be lee, mags and borchard.

Iguana775
08-28-2001, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago


Actually, some of us have discussed this idea before. At least Manos has more range than the 3 feet Ray exhibits.

actually, i think it is closer to 4 ft. lol but i am be being generous. :):):):):)