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View Full Version : TINKER TINKER TINKER...Damn it Jerry!


ssang
08-27-2003, 11:35 PM
I am ecstatic about starting off this road trip by blowing out NY twice. However, I cannot believe that Manuel has changed his mind yet again....this time clearly for the worse. Manuel went from 99.9% sure that he would start Buerhle for game 3 to deciding to start Cotts again tomorrow night.

Four reasons why this move is atrocious. Manuel Sucks still!

1) Buerhle wanted to start in New York BADLY as he had never pitched there before. Jerry, show some balls and let him pitch.

2) Jerry iproves he is s a massive "you know what" for wanting to go for 2 of 3 instead of showing a killer instinct and making a statement by sweeping NY at Yankke stadium.

3) The move makes no sense. Why start the shaky rookie 5th srater against the superior team (the team w/ the best record in the AL) and use Buehrle against a crap team, the Tigers (the worst record in baseball!!)??? And don't tell me because we've struggled against the Tigers this season! Manuel is afraid of the Tigers?!?! That just goes back my second point. In addition, we may have won 2 straight against the Yanks but we haven't made up ANY ground cause KC or Minn hasn't lost either. It's not like we widened the gap! What a goddamn FOOL!

4) Jerrry once again proves that his words mean nothing. You'll notice that he mentioned that Cotts would start, then the next day he said he'll give it to Buerhle and said it's 99.9% his start, and finally back to starting Cotts again. YOU'RE A MORON JERRY!

Anyways, heres the link http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030827soxnotes,1,2472294.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

A.T. Money
08-27-2003, 11:51 PM
You smell blood, you have the opportunity to just bury them into the ground and sweep them, but no. Ghandi is deciding to take the series win for granted and settle with 2 of 3. I know I'm putting the cart in front of the horse in my prediction, but damn. I think it's a bit more important to get this 3rd game with Burlymon, than worry about pitching him in Detroit. I think Cotts can handle Detroit with ease. This is NEW YORK!!!! We're only 1 game up!!!!

bc2k
08-28-2003, 12:20 AM
I don't mind letting Cotts start the finale against the Yankees. I don't agree with this 'going for blood' against the Yankees since it is damn difficult win tomorrow, no matter who is pitching for us. If a Buehrle start guaranteed victory, then yeah, start him.

Perhaps Manuel is just grateful that we haven't lost any ground instead of being upset that we haven't gained any. He could be sacrificing a tough game tomorrow for a series sweep of Detroit. Every game counts the same in the standings, so to hell with this going for blood theory. Add to the fact that Buehrle isn't 100% and it doesn't make sense to move up his rotation start.

I was really happy when I read the caption saying Buehrle wants the ball vs. New York, but was disappointed once I read the article and discovered that he wanted the start because he has never pitched in Yankee Stadium--not because he has the team's best interest in mind. Also, I sensed some jealousy of Cotts in Buehrle's comments about how he can't make his third career start in Yankee Stadium.

Worst case scenario: Cotts loses tomorrow and KC wins = tie for first with the Sox facing Detroit and KC facing the Rangers. Ultimately we face KC and Minny 7 more times each. I believe it is in those games that the Central will be won or lost.

A.T. Money
08-28-2003, 01:02 AM
If a pitcher like Buehrle wants the ball, you give him the ball.

You don't give the Yankees a chance to win a game here by pitching a rookie. I'm sorry, you just don't. You need to beat the best, to be the best (didn't Ric Flair say that? Wooooooo). Regardless, why does it make sense to pitch Neal in a game you have to win? You have to win in Detroit too, but I think Neal Cotts pitching vs. Detroit makes more sense than it does vs. the Yankees. Remember, if KC sweeps Texas and then we lose to NY, then we are tied for 1st with KC.

You don't leave the door open to NY, just because we already got the series win. Bury them, get another win, and go into Detroit feeling damn good about a possible 6-0 road trip. We're in a pennant race....no more messing around.

A.T. Money
08-28-2003, 01:03 AM
Go for the kill. This is something Dick Jauron needs to learn too.

anotherDCsoxfan
08-28-2003, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I don't mind letting Cotts start the finale against the Yankees. I don't agree with this 'going for blood' against the Yankees since it is damn difficult win tomorrow, no matter who is pitching for us. If a Buehrle start guaranteed victory, then yeah, start him.


At first I was pissed about this move too, but after thinking about it, I'm with bc2k on this one. Think about it strategically:

- If the Sox continue to hit the way they've been hitting, Sox are going to win tonight no matter who pitches.

- If it's a pitching dual, Buehrle could easily lose against Mussina. Then you'd have Cotts going against the Tigers, which is no sure thing. But you have to like our chances with Buehrle against the Tigers.

The last thing we need now is to drop two in a row, and the move by Jerry pretty much insures that's not going to happen, while still giving us a chance at running the winning streak to 4+.

Jurr
08-28-2003, 05:40 AM
DC, thank God for you. I'm glad that others on this board have some ability for deduction. I love each and every one of y'all, but DAMN. 'Tis better to lose one and that's it than to lose two in a row in the middle of the stretch drive.
Plain and simple: Cotts may not have it against anyone. He may lose 13-6 the same as Buehrle could lose 3-1. But, if Cotts loses tomorrow, Buehrle is ready to right the ship the next day. We should be happy that we won the first two games to put us in this nice position.

CLR01
08-28-2003, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by anotherDCsoxfan


At first I was pissed about this move too, but after thinking about it, I'm with bc2k on this one. Think about it strategically:

- If the Sox continue to hit the way they've been hitting, Sox are going to win tonight no matter who pitches.

- If it's a pitching dual, Buehrle could easily lose against Mussina. Then you'd have Cotts going against the Tigers, which is no sure thing. But you have to like our chances with Buehrle against the Tigers.

The last thing we need now is to drop two in a row, and the move by Jerry pretty much insures that's not going to happen, while still giving us a chance at running the winning streak to 4+.


Originally posted by Jurr
DC, thank God for you. I'm glad that others on this board have some ability for deduction. I love each and every one of y'all, but DAMN. 'Tis better to lose one and that's it than to lose two in a row in the middle of the stretch drive.
Plain and simple: Cotts may not have it against anyone. He may lose 13-6 the same as Buehrle could lose 3-1. But, if Cotts loses tomorrow, Buehrle is ready to right the ship the next day. We should be happy that we won the first two games to put us in this nice position.


Amen to that. Plus come playoff time (if we make it) we will need Buehrle alot more than we will need Neal, if he even makes the roster. Give him all the rest you can now. I would rather go 2-1 to the yankees, than possibly 2-1 to the tiggers.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 06:55 AM
The only good reason I can think of for pushing back Buehrle another day is because he *MAY* be hurt. I've heard conflicting news on this front the past several days. Presumably the extra day's rest will help his arm.

#5 starters (and #6 relievers, too) ought to be seen and not heard. They are on the roster for no reason but to chew up innings that the rest of the staff (all of them superior pitchers) could use better getting some rest. You never use these guys in any game you can avoid using them.

That's why it is S.O.P. for managers to skip the #5 starter. Manuel DEFINITELY has that option today because the entire team got a day off Monday. In other words, he is giving Buehrle an *EXTRA* day of rest by pitching Cotts. In fact, he is giving an extra day of rest to every pitcher in the rotation by using Cotts today.

Does this make sense? We're not playing any meaningless games the next 30 days. Now that we're down to the last month's worth of games, the strategy must change. Nobody here *knows* we're going to sweep NY, nor do any of us *know* we're going to sweep Detroit or Boston either. The best we can do is play these games to win using the ballplayers that give us the best chance of winning--every single game. That's why most manager's abandon the #5 starter completely down the stretch. They're not taking ANY ballgame for granted.

The best experience for Neal Cotts is to be in the clubhouse of a team winning a championship, not losing one. Even if he isn't pitching in the #5 slot, he'll make contributions--trust me. Our #5 starter in 1993, Tim Belcher, pitched some of the most crucial innings of the ALCS for our Sox. The notion I've heard that Neal Cotts needs to "prove" something in Yankee Stadium is just pure bull****. Even Dave Wills was making these sorts of noises last night. I could hardly believe my ears.

If Buehrle honestly has arm trouble beyond being tired, I doubt the extra day of rest will make much if any difference. Keeping him healthy is the #1 priority, but you don't do that pitching him on Friday rather than Thursday. You skip his turn completely, send him to the doctor, and perhaps place him on the DL if he doesn't pass his checkup. I haven't heard anybody suggest anything of this sort.

Until then, this is simply a case of starting our worse starting pitcher in a game we really can't afford to take for granted. I hope Cotts wins, and I hope Buehrle wins on Friday. I always hope the Sox win. I just hope the Sox manager is thinking the same way. I KNOW FOR FACT HE DOESN'T. :angry:

:jerry
"I try to play everybody in the first-half. Winning becomes the priority later."

CLR01
08-28-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Does this make sense? We're not playing any meaningless games the next 30 days. Now that we're down to the last month's worth of games, the strategy must change. Nobody here *knows* we're going to sweep NY, nor do any of us *know* we're going to sweep Detroit or Boston either. The best we can do is play these games to win using the ballplayers that give us the best chance of winning--every single game. That's why most manager's abandon the #5 starter completely down the stretch. They're not taking ANY ballgame for granted.


I agree every game left on the schedule is important and we both know Jerry loves to play everyone so there is no way in hell he skips the 5th starter. Given that, i would much rather see Cotts going today, regardless of how Buehrle feels, than tomorrow. It gives us the best chance of losing only one game. The other way we have a very good chance of losing 2.


GO NEAL

Paulwny
08-28-2003, 07:55 AM
One of my main concerns is Cotts not lasting more than 2-3 innings, thus extending the bull pen and in a day or so JM saying he had to let a starter go deeper in a game because the pen needed a rest.
I see more negatives than positives with Cotts pitching today.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 07:59 AM
I'm just wondering if anybody here who agrees with Manuel's decision to start Cotts thinks Tony Pena would do the same thing with his Kansas City Royals? They won the first two over Texas. Does that fact mean Pena eases up in game #3?

Stop kidding yourselves about what is really going on here.

soxtalker
08-28-2003, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by ssang
1) Buerhle wanted to start in New York BADLY as he had never pitched there before. Jerry, show some balls and let him pitch.


So, giving in to the "demands" of one of your players and the fans is taking the most risky decision? Sorry, but JM is taking the unpopular road. I may not agree with the decison, but pitching Buehrle isn't exactly the most courageous move.

Now, I've seen lots of discussion on both sides of this issue, and I could go either way. In fact, I'd probably start Buehrle. But it is going to be Cotts (barring a last-minute change in plans). A longer-term issue may be involved here, however. This appears to have started when Buehrle mentioned some stiffness while warming up earlier in the week. I worry that he may be very reluctant in the future to mention any such issues. This reminds me a lot of the situation earlier in the year with Colon. If I recall correctly, Manuel had no one warming up in the bullpen for one game, and Colon went a few batters too long. On his next start, Colon suggests to Manuel that he should get someone up in the bullpen, and Manuel immediately pulls him before the next inning. Turns out that Colon wasn't really tired yet. Good way to send the message to pitchers -- don't communicate with your manager.

34 Inch Stick
08-28-2003, 08:05 AM
People in favor of the move, please tell me how you equate Buhrle starting one game in Detroit with a sweep. The truth of the matter is if he started and won today's game against the Yankees he would be part of a sweep. I just don't understand how you conceed this game (by your own admission).

You try to win today's game today with the best weapon available. Then you try to win tomorrow's game with the best weapon available.

Today would be a pitcher's duel and I think we have a 50-50 chance with Buhrle. Tomorrow will be a slugfest and even with Cotts I give the Sox a 75-25 chance of outslugging the Tigers.

If Buhrle starts today you have a decent chance of winning both games. If Buhrle starts tomorrow you have very little chance of winning both games.

Kilroy
08-28-2003, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm just wondering if anybody here who agrees with Manuel's decision to start Cotts thinks Tony Pena would do the same thing with his Kansas City Royals? They won the first two over Texas. Does that fact mean Pena eases up in game #3?

Stop kidding yourselves about what is really going on here.

Who cares what Pena would do?

Like I said elsewhere, we haven't really kicked the happless Tigers all over the field when we've played them. Having a 9-7 record against a team w/ only 33 wins is pretty crappy.

It could be one of those things where the records don't matter and the Tigers just play well against us, or we play bad against them. Either way, I hope the Sox don't roll into Detroit after getting 2 or 3 against the Yanks thinking they can just show up and win. It sounds like a lot of you think that.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Who cares what Pena would do?

Like I said elsewhere, we haven't really kicked the happless Tigers all over the field when we've played them. Having a 9-7 record against a team w/ only 33 wins is pretty crappy.

It could be one of those things where the records don't matter and the Tigers just play well against us, or we play bad against them. Either way, I hope the Sox don't roll into Detroit after getting 2 or 3 against the Yanks thinking they can just show up and win. It sounds like a lot of you think that.

Well, I don't know. What Pena and the Royals would do seems rather significant to me. They're only one game back in the standings and exactly even with us in the loss column--the only column that counts as the season runs out.

So yeah, I think what Pena and the Royals would do speaks volumes for why Manuel is a ****ing idiot to do what he is doing with the White Sox. Remember--Manuel's decision centered on wins and losses, NOT Buehrle's health. Manuel didn't make up his mind what to do UNTIL AFTER the Sox won last night.

All the games are important. That's what a pennant race is all about. Pena understand this. Manuel doesn't. That's why he needs to be out of the manager's seat at the soonest opportunity. We can't afford to keep him around.

chuckn98229
08-28-2003, 08:33 AM
Interesting quote from Jerry Manuel on the ESPN website. He states: "That's the bottom line at this time of year. You've got to try to win series and that's what we've done." If I am not mistaken, the division title will go to the team with the most wins, NOT the team that wins the most series. I just don't understand why you would alter your pitching rotation just because you won the first two games of a three game series. (Even the Yankee announcers (MLB extra-inning feed last night) were wondering the same thing.) I would hope that you would field the team and pitcher with the best chance of winning - especially at this time of year.

Paulwny
08-28-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


It could be one of those things where the records don't matter and the Tigers just play well against us, or we play bad against them. Either way, I hope the Sox don't roll into Detroit after getting 2 or 3 against the Yanks thinking they can just show up and win. It sounds like a lot of you think that.

I think too many who support this move are assuming an automatic victory with Buehrle pitching against Det.
I'm sure the tigers will hear about this move and be a little more motivated.

Dadawg_77
08-28-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I think too many who support this move are assuming an automatic victory with Buehrle pitching against Det.
I'm sure the tigers will hear about this move and be a little more motivated.

Nah the Tigers just don't want to break the record, this is all the motivation they need.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I think too many who support this move are assuming an automatic victory with Buehrle pitching against Det.
I'm sure the tigers will hear about this move and be a little more motivated.

Paul, you can't make sense out of nonsense. It would be one thing if Manuel was offering reasons that any of us (including his own ballplayers) could understand. The facts are he doesn't. That's why Buehrle is trying to be diplomatic with his quotes in today's Cubune.

Manuel is hurting the ballclub, and you have to be in denial to read what he says and watch what he does to draw any other conclusion.

:angry:

Bobby Thigpen
08-28-2003, 09:07 AM
Let me get this straight, Manuel juggles the batting order for the first half of the year and everyone calls him a ****ing idiot for messing up his hitters, but now that he doesn't juggle the pitching order he's a ****ing idiot. How does this make sense? I know, pitching is different right? While I would like to see Buehrle tonight, I don't necessarily see this as a bad call. It's much more important to have Buehrle in September than it is for one game against the Yankees. You can't have a five man rotation and just throw it out the window because your stud pitcher wants to pitch in Yankee stadium.

That's why he needs to be out of the manager's seat at the soonest opportunity. We can't afford to keep him around.

Yeah, why the hell would you want to keep a guy that has made up ten games in a month and a half and has the Sox in first?

voodoochile
08-28-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm just wondering if anybody here who agrees with Manuel's decision to start Cotts thinks Tony Pena would do the same thing with his Kansas City Royals? They won the first two over Texas. Does that fact mean Pena eases up in game #3?

Stop kidding yourselves about what is really going on here.

Is it any wonder that Reinsy loved JM so much in the interview. Both of them love to do what they are sure is right even when the world is telling them it is wrong...

bobj4400
08-28-2003, 09:19 AM
I have blasted Tinkerbell as much, if not more than, anyone on this board, but cant do it here. As much as I would like to see Buehrle finish this series against the Bombers, it is Cotts' turn in the rotation, we are going against Mussina, and we have absolutely embarrassed the Yanks in game 1 & 2. They will be out for blood today and we could easily lose this game with Buehrle on the mound. Then we have Cotts and Garland pitching the first two games of the Detroit series. That is a recipe for a three game losing streak.

For once, Jerry isnt tinkering with things...I think this may be the right move.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen

Yeah, why the hell would you want to keep a guy that has made up ten games in a month and a half and has the Sox in first?

It's kind of ironic that you chose to be sarcastic with this statement. Maybe you can state for the rest of us all the wonderful decisions Jerry Manuel has made the last 5 months that got us where we are. That's going to be an uphill battle, trust me. Manuel's own statements undercut whatever traction you might think you're making. The overwhelming evidence is that the team is winning IN SPITE of Manuel, not because of him.

So go ahead, make your case. I don't envy you.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by bobj4400
I have blasted Tinkerbell as much, if not more than, anyone on this board, but cant do it here. As much as I would like to see Buehrle finish this series against the Bombers, it is Cotts' turn in the rotation, we are going against Mussina, and we have absolutely embarrassed the Yanks in game 1 & 2. They will be out for blood today and we could easily lose this game with Buehrle on the mound. Then we have Cotts and Garland pitching the first two games of the Detroit series. That is a recipe for a three game losing streak.

For once, Jerry isnt tinkering with things...I think this may be the right move.

For the record, Buehrle has gotten his usual 4 days rest. The entire team got the day off Monday. We're debating whether it is wise to give Buehrle (and everyone else in the rotation) an EXTRA day's rest.

The point is moot. Manuel himself said he doesn't care whether Cotts or Buehrle starts. It's more a big deal to Buehrle than it is to the rest of the team. Those are Manuel's own words.



Ignore this man ----------------------> :jerry

Iwritecode
08-28-2003, 09:44 AM
I have to add my 2 cents here.

I don't like this move.

Unless Burly is really hurt, he should pitch today. If he is hurt, resting for one extra day probably isn't going to make a difference anyway. From the quotes that I have read, his arm is fine. He just had some trouble getting loose in his last start. Then proceeded to go out and throw 100+ pitches with no problem. If the bats should happen to go cold today, Burly would probably give the team the best chance to stay in the game by shutting down the Yanks offense. I'm not sure Cotts will be able to do that. He could prove me wrong and pitch the way he did against the Rangers powerful offense, but I just don't have as much confidence in him yet.

Also, if anyone here thinks that Burly pitching agianst the Tigers is a guaranteed win, ask E-Lo about his TWO 1 to nothing losses against them...

Bobby Thigpen
08-28-2003, 09:50 AM
My point is this. Do you honestly think that the Sox would do any differently with anyone else in charge? Do you really think that if he had been fired after the All Star break that the Sox would be in first? I have a feeling that had he been fired the team would have packed it in, Alomar and Everett would be gone and the talk around he would be about next year, not the Sox in first.

Sure JM has made many mistakes that have cost the team games, but everyone in MLB does. Hell the savior on the northside did it just last night. Ask any Cardinal fan how happy they are this year with LaRussa (the majority of ones I ask are not happy at all), and for reasons unknown to me he's been declared a baseball messiah. And just for the record I DO give JM a little credit for getting the Sox to first place. I think there's a couple things he's done to get them there

1. Staying with Pauly. I realize that you will find some insane reason this is wrong, but he's been hot lately and his heating up coincides with the Sox heating up. If it had been up to the genius internet managers we have around here, he would've been in AAA or traded by now.

2. Pitch count pullings. I agree that this was and still is infuriating to see a pitcher pulled the moment that he hits 100 pitches no matter how well he is pitching, but I think that this has payed off in the last few weeks in that our pitchers seem to be getting fresher as the season wears on instead of wearing down. It is much more important to have pitchers for the stretch run and playoffs than building a big lead and having the pitchers break down in the postseason as they did in 2000.

The point is moot. Manuel himself said he doesn't care whether Cotts or Buehrle starts

Where? Maybe I mis read his comments, but I don't ever remember seeing him say this.

Iwritecode
08-28-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
I have to add my 2 cents here.

I don't like this move.

Unless Burly is really hurt, he should pitch today. If he is hurt, resting for one extra day probably isn't going to make a difference anyway. From the quotes that I have read, his arm is fine. He just had some trouble getting loose in his last start. Then proceeded to go out and throw 100+ pitches with no problem. If the bats should happen to go cold today, Burly would probably give the team the best chance to stay in the game by shutting down the Yanks offense. I'm not sure Cotts will be able to do that. He could prove me wrong and pitch the way he did against the Rangers powerful offense, but I just don't have as much confidence in him yet.

Also, if anyone here thinks that Burly pitching agianst the Tigers is a guaranteed win, ask E-Lo about his TWO 1 to nothing losses against them...

One more thing I forgot to mention, instead of having Colon and Burly at home against Boston, we now have Colon and Cotts. We also have Garland, E-Lo, Cotts at home against the Yankees instead of E-Lo, Colon, Burly. This move screws up the rotation for the rest of the year...

Paulwny
08-28-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
One more thing I forgot to mention, instead of having Colon and Burly at home against Boston, we now have Colon and Cotts. We also have Garland, E-Lo, Cotts at home against the Yankees instead of E-Lo, Colon, Burly. This move screws up the rotation for the rest of the year...

Great call IWC, too bad JM can't look beyond 2 games.

voodoochile
08-28-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
One more thing I forgot to mention, instead of having Colon and Burly at home against Boston, we now have Colon and Cotts. We also have Garland, E-Lo, Cotts at home against the Yankees instead of E-Lo, Colon, Burly. This move screws up the rotation for the rest of the year...

Great. So instead of using our 5th starter against teams that should be easier to beat and where he can learn with less pressure on him, we get to see this kid in pressure cooker games against playoff caliber foes for the rest of the season. All because Manuel is happy with 2 out of 3 today...

:jerry
"No no no... I told you. I am just as comfortable with Cotts as I am with Buehrle. This means nothing. NOTHING I tell you..."

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Originally posted by PHG
The point is moot. Manuel himself said he doesn't care whether Cotts or Buehrle starts. It's more a big deal to Buehrle than it is to the rest of the team. Those are Manuel's own words.

Where? Maybe I mis read his comments, but I don't ever remember seeing him say this.

Read this report (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030827soxnotes,1,2472294.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines) from Teddy G. in today's Cubune. You ought to read the Manuel's in Buehrle's Kitchen (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23723) thread, too.

Words have meaning. If Manuel doesn't think Cotts and Buerhle are interchangable, he NEVER should have said this...

"[Speaking of whether to start Buehrle or Cotts Thursday] I think it's more of a big thing for him than it is for us."

It's hard to defend Jerry Manuel, isn't it? The man is a complete incompetent for the job he is trusted to do.

Bobby Thigpen
08-28-2003, 10:07 AM
"[Speaking of whether to start Buehrle or Cotts Thursday] I think it's more of a big thing for him than it is for us."

Why does this make him incompetent? It IS a bigger thing for Buehrle. I find it hard to say that JM's screwing Buehrle over when Buehrle himself said that one of the main reasons that he wanted to start Thursday was because he had never pitched in Yankee stadium. He clearly wants to pitch today for personal reasons. Don't act like Buehrle's doing it because he wants it for the best of the team.

Besides, to win the division the Sox are going to have win when Cotts AND Buehrle are on the mound.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Why does this make him incompetent? It IS a bigger thing for Buehrle. I find it hard to say that JM's screwing Buehrle over when Buehrle himself said that one of the main reasons that he wanted to start Thursday was because he had never pitched in Yankee stadium. He clearly wants to pitch today for personal reasons. Don't act like Buehrle's doing it because he wants it for the best of the team.

Besides, to win the division the Sox are going to have win when Cotts AND Buehrle are on the mound.

We're trying to win. If you honestly think Cotts gives us an equal chance of winning compared to Mark Buehrle, are you prepared to state for us you would swap Buehrle's and Cotts' role on this team? You do understand that #5 starters are routinely skipped in the rotation, especially down the stretch?

Remember--we're talking about an EXTRA day's rest for Buehrle. He isn't losing anything by pitching today, and Manuel himself ultimately based his decision on nothing regarding rest or preventing injury. That's why the point is moot.

Kilroy
08-28-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Why does this make him incompetent? It IS a bigger thing for Buehrle. I find it hard to say that JM's screwing Buehrle over when Buehrle himself said that one of the main reasons that he wanted to start Thursday was because he had never pitched in Yankee stadium. He clearly wants to pitch today for personal reasons. Don't act like Buehrle's doing it because he wants it for the best of the team.

Besides, to win the division the Sox are going to have win when Cotts AND Buehrle are on the mound.

Now there's a guy that's been paying attention. Buerlhe wants this for himself, not the team.

And to those who are worried about whos gonna start against boston and NY in Chi, live in the now. I guarantee if the Sox look past detroit like you are, the Tigers will kick their cans all over the field. And its not like they haven't done that already this season.

kempsted
08-28-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
One more thing I forgot to mention, instead of having Colon and Burly at home against Boston, we now have Colon and Cotts. We also have Garland, E-Lo, Cotts at home against the Yankees instead of E-Lo, Colon, Burly. This move screws up the rotation for the rest of the year...

Actually that is not true. We would have had

28th - Buehrle
29th - Garland
30th - Cotts
31 - Loaiza
1 - OFF
2 - Colon
3 - Buehrle
4- Off
5- Garland
etc.

Now we have
28th - Cotts
29th - Buehrle
30th- Garland
31- Loaiza
1- Off
2 - Colon
3- Buehrle

i.e. because of the off day Cotts will not pitch again. Either way they went there would not be a need for a 5th starter until September 20th because of off days.

Of course maybe Manuel will decide to rest Buehrle again instead :angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Now there's a guy that's been paying attention. Buerlhe wants this for himself, not the team.

And to those who are worried about whos gonna start against boston and NY in Chi, live in the now. I guarantee if the Sox look past detroit like you are, the Tigers will kick their cans all over the field. And its not like they haven't done that already this season.

Okay, so some of us are more focused on beating Detroit than the Yankees. Fair enough. Personally I'm more focused on the loss column. I guarantee Tony Pena and the Royals are, too.

Oh yeah, and I'm very definitely "living in the now." The "now" starts at 12 noon today, not 6 pm Friday night along the Detroit River. :o:

kempsted
08-28-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Now there's a guy that's been paying attention. Buerlhe wants this for himself, not the team.

And to those who are worried about whos gonna start against boston and NY in Chi, live in the now. I guarantee if the Sox look past detroit like you are, the Tigers will kick their cans all over the field. And its not like they haven't done that already this season.

No one is looking past the Tigers. You are playing two different teams - 1. The Yankees best record in AL 2. The Tigers worst record in AL. Yes the tigers have beaten us but not by beating up our pitching. We have 2 1-0 loses to them and a 2-1 for example. In other words we have lost to the Tigers by not hitting. The Tigers are the worst hitting team in baseball.

This is management 101
Team A is better than Team B. Pitcher A is better and more expericenced than pitcher B. You can pitch A gainst A and B against B or A against B and B against A. What do you do?

Duh...

Iwritecode
08-28-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
Actually that is not true. We would have had

28th - Buehrle
29th - Garland
30th - Cotts
31 - Loaiza
1 - OFF
2 - Colon
3 - Buehrle
4- Off
5- Garland
etc.

Now we have
28th - Cotts
29th - Buehrle
30th- Garland
31- Loaiza
1- Off
2 - Colon
3- Buehrle

i.e. because of the off day Cotts will not pitch again. Either way they went there would not be a need for a 5th starter until September 20th because of off days.

Of course maybe Manuel will decide to rest Buehrle again instead :angry:

OK, that would work as long as Manuel skips Cotts turn in the rotation. We would still need him on the 9th and 14th though...

Bobby Thigpen
08-28-2003, 11:11 AM
We're trying to win

Ok, but does that mean they shouldn't try to win against the Tigers? And if you tell Cotts that he isn't starting, despite the fact that it's his turn in the rotation, won't that "get in his kitchen" too? I personally would be a little more worried about mentally messing up a talented young kid than a verteran who has been up for a few years now and has publicly stated that he wants to start the game for personal reasons.

Remember, the Sox have to win every game possible, despite who is on the mound. They need Cotts down the stretch just as much as anyone else.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
OK, that would work as long as Manuel skips Cotts turn in the rotation. We would still need him on the 9th and 14th though...

Hey, if Manuel says there is no real difference between starting Buehrle or Cotts, why would we EVER skip Cotts' #5 spot? Hell, we ought to have a coin flip to decide our three starters for the ALDS (assuming we haven't blown it to KC in the month between now and then). :angry:

:jerry
"A coin flip? Nah... I'll just make sure the series goes the full five games."

MisterB
08-28-2003, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
No one is looking past the Tigers. You are playing two different teams - 1. The Yankees best record in AL 2. The Tigers worst record in AL. Yes the tigers have beaten us but not by beating up our pitching. We have 2 1-0 loses to them and a 2-1 for example. In other words we have lost to the Tigers by not hitting. The Tigers are the worst hitting team in baseball.

This is management 101
Team A is better than Team B. Pitcher A is better and more expericenced than pitcher B. You can pitch A gainst A and B against B or A against B and B against A. What do you do?

Duh...

Quite right. In six of the seven losses against Detroit, the Sox scored 2 runs or less. If the offense doesn't show up, it doesn't matter who's on the mound in Detroit. Conversely, if the offense does show up it still doesn't matter, beacuse the Tigers have a pathetic offense and anyone should be able to hold them down. What does matter is we give ourselves the best shot to win against one of the best teams in baseball, and Buehrle gives us that shot.

jeremyb1
08-28-2003, 11:18 AM
Agree or disagree with Manuel's decision I think some of you guys are taking this way too seriously. Its not the life or death situation everyone seems to think it is. Even if you think Manuel's an idiot relax. Most managers are. Most GM's are. Get over it, things will be fine. Worse things will happen than Buehrle being a little frustrated that he doesn't get to pitch in Yankee Stadium.

Iwritecode
08-28-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Agree or disagree with Manuel's decision I think some of you guys are taking this way too seriously. Its not the life or death situation everyone seems to think it is. Even if you think Manuel's an idiot relax. Most managers are. Most GM's are. Get over it, things will be fine. Worse things will happen than Buehrle being a little frustrated that he doesn't get to pitch in Yankee Stadium.

I'm sure he'll remember this too in a couple of years when he's a Cardinal...

How many times is this organization going to yank this guys chain???

:angry:

Bobby Thigpen
08-28-2003, 12:36 PM
How many times is this organization going to yank this guys chain???

He's made it pretty obvious that he's gone the moment he can leave town, so what the hell does it matter? They're supposed to cater to a guy who wants to start so he can pitch in Yankee Stadium and has made every indication for the last two years that he wants out? That seems pretty screwy to me.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-28-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
He's made it pretty obvious that he's gone the moment he can leave town, so what the hell does it matter? They're supposed to cater to a guy who wants to start so he can pitch in Yankee Stadium and has made every indication for the last two years that he wants out? That seems pretty screwy to me.

Wow. After all the points that have been made in this thread, and especially in light of what is occurring in the Bronx right now, I'm left speechless for a reply.

Have your nurse send me a double-prescription of whatever it is you're taking.

Jurr
08-28-2003, 03:23 PM
I love how stupid y'all sound over one little game. It's nothing. Buehrle could have lost just as easy. The Yanks were due.

voodoochile
08-28-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
I love how stupid y'all sound over one little game. It's nothing. Buehrle could have lost just as easy. The Yanks were due.

Really? They were due to get 5 runs on 3 hits in the first inning? Wow... I must be nuts to say, "Let's play that whole game over with Mark Buehrle instead of Cotts pitching the first inning and see what happens."

JUGGERNAUT
08-28-2003, 03:38 PM
Stop making excuses for him.
He runs this team like it's little league.

Today was just plain stupid.
This isn't about Cotts it's about days of rest. The SOX have another on Mon.
There's no sense in pitching Cotts today. None.

The only good that came from this is that Danny Wright proved he's "lights out" again in starter's relief.

Manuel treated this game like a throw away. What a moron.

34 Inch Stick
08-28-2003, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
I love how stupid y'all sound over one little game. It's nothing. Buehrle could have lost just as easy. The Yanks were due.

A person who not only uses the word y'all in his writing feels comfortable calling other people stupid. Well yee-haw.

soxruleEP
08-28-2003, 04:35 PM
Regarding Buehrle's supposed selfishness:

hasn't the guy earned a little consideration through his performance on the field?

I'm just as angry about his fishing for a ticket to St. Louis in three years as the next Sox fan but I think it's a bit much to attack the guy because he wants to face the team with the best record in the league on their home field with a chance to sweep them and keep his own team in first place.

That confidence and cockiness--both key ingredients in great players.

John Wooden, the great UCLA coach, once said "The surest way to treat someone unfairly is to treat everyone the same."

RKMeibalane
08-28-2003, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Let me get this straight, Manuel juggles the batting order for the first half of the year and everyone calls him a ****ing idiot for messing up his hitters, but now that he doesn't juggle the pitching order he's a ****ing idiot. How does this make sense? I know, pitching is different right? While I would like to see Buehrle tonight, I don't necessarily see this as a bad call. It's much more important to have Buehrle in September than it is for one game against the Yankees. You can't have a five man rotation and just throw it out the window because your stud pitcher wants to pitch in Yankee stadium.



Yeah, why the hell would you want to keep a guy that has made up ten games in a month and a half and has the Sox in first?

You are over simplfying the situation. Many people (myself included) were upset with Manuel during the first half because of his constant tinkering.

Having said that, there are times when the occasional adjustment is necessary. Today was one of those times. The Sox had a chance to sweep the New York Yankees, and they probably would have had Buehrle been on the mound. Yet Manuel didn't change the rotation. That's why we aren't happy.

Manuel has no instincts when it comes to situations like this. He just doesn't understand that it's important to win every game you can, not just a few here and there.

And as for the fact of the Sox making up games in the standings, don't kid yourself. The Sox accmplished this in spite of Jerry Manuel, not because of him.

TornLabrum
08-28-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
You are over simplfying the situation. Many people (myself included) were upset with Manuel during the first half because of his constant tinkering.

Having said that, there are times when the occasional adjustment is necessary. Today was one of those times. The Sox had a chance to sweep the New York Yankees, and they probably would have had Buehrle been on the mound. Yet Manuel didn't change the rotation. That's why we aren't happy.

Manuel has no instincts when it comes to situations like this. He just doesn't understand that it's important to win every game you can, not just a few here and there.

And as for the fact of the Sox making up games in the standings, don't kid yourself. The Sox accmplished this in spite of Jerry Manuel, not because of him.

You're wrong. Manuel has been starting his pitchers on four days rest all through the season and only going with the fifth starter when necessary. So he broke his usual rotation pattern. Had he followed the usual pattern, this week's pitching rotation and that of the near future would look like this:

8/24 Tex: Garland
8/25 Off
9/26 @ NY: Loaiza
8/27 @ NY: Colon
8/28 @ NY: Buehrle
8/29 @ Det: Garland
8/30 @ Det: Cotts
8/31 @ Det: Loaiza
9/1 Off