PDA

View Full Version : Manuel's Future


Lip Man 1
08-26-2003, 11:36 AM
For those of you who have posted with certainty that if the Sox fail to make the playoffs Manager Gandhi will be fired, here is some sobering news...

"Asked if he felt he and Manuel are facing an ultimatum from Sox chairman Jerry Reinsdorf to make it to the postseason this year or else, Williams replied:

"He hasn't given me any indication along those lines." --Kenny Williams to the Chicago Tribune.

I don't for a second think that if the Sox come up short, Manager Gandhi's automatically gone. He still would be owed payment for the remaining year on his contract (and I have never seen printed any place how much he makes...) and it would be hard for Unlce Jerry to dismiss a member of a minority group when he is either the head or on the committee to advance minority hirings in baseball (I think he's the chairman...) He'd be getting a lot of pressure from his good friend Bud Selig to keep Manuel around.

Plus you had Reinsdorf's published comments about Manuel's status right after Williams made his comments about how the club better start winning. Uncle jerry refused to agree that Manuel's future was what Williams had in mind with his remarks.

Just something to consider.

Lip

jeremyb1
08-26-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
For those of you who have posted with certainty that if the Sox fail to make the playoffs Manager Gandhi will be fired, here is some sobering news...

"Asked if he felt he and Manuel are facing an ultimatum from Sox chairman Jerry Reinsdorf to make it to the postseason this year or else, Williams replied:

"He hasn't given me any indication along those lines." --Kenny Williams to the Chicago Tribune.

I don't for a second think that if the Sox come up short, Manager Gandhi's automatically gone. He still would be owed payment for the remaining year on his contract (and I have never seen printed any place how much he makes...) and it would be hard for Unlce Jerry to dismiss a member of a minority group when he is either the head or on the committee to advance minority hirings in baseball (I think he's the chairman...) He'd be getting a lot of pressure from his good friend Bud Selig to keep Manuel around.

Plus you had Reinsdorf's published comments about Manuel's status right after Williams made his comments about how the club better start winning. Uncle jerry refused to agree that Manuel's future was what Williams had in mind with his remarks.

Just something to consider.

Lip

Well if you ask me its pretty dumb to say "If you win 90 games and make the playoffs you did a good job but if you win 89 and finish a game back, you're out." The playoffs matter to everyone since that's the important bottom line but its not like there's a big difference between a 90 win manager and an 89 win manager. The bottom line for most people is results regardless of the good or bad impact the manager had on results. Since Manuel kept his job through the team's early season struggles, I can't see him losing his job without a big collapse down the stretch.

34 Inch Stick
08-26-2003, 12:40 PM
The funny thing is going to be this off season. I promise you Manuel is going to seek a contract extension or he will threaten to walk. I think it would be embarassing to have a second rate manager like Manuel walk out on us.

By the way, KW has a job for life. Don't even waste your time thinking about his dismissal (after ripping on him up until the Colon trade, I think he has done a good job and is getting better).

voodoochile
08-26-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Well if you ask me its pretty dumb to say "If you win 90 games and make the playoffs you did a good job but if you win 89 and finish a game back, you're out." The playoffs matter to everyone since that's the important bottom line but its not like there's a big difference between a 90 win manager and an 89 win manager. The bottom line for most people is results regardless of the good or bad impact the manager had on results. Since Manuel kept his job through the team's early season struggles, I can't see him losing his job without a big collapse down the stretch.

If your team has the ability and talent to win the division going away, then there is obviously a huge difference between winning the division by 1 game (not pretty but goal achieved) and missing the playoffs by one game (not pretty AND a disaster). So in fact, 1 game here or there can indeed make the difference between a manager being deemed competent and a failure, IMO.

When a manager has clearly made the number of mistakes that Manuel has this season which have cost the Sox well more than 1 game, the only question becomes, "how long do the Sox keep him waiting before firing him." At least that SHOULD be the only question.

Like it or not, the big picture problem HAS to have a positive outcome for a manager to keep his job. One game out of the playoffs is a big picture failure, plain and simple and in the end, the little pictures (only missed it by one measly game, drat) have little to do with it.

Of course it also depends on the quality, average age and recent successes of your team to make that judgement. Tony Pena can miss the playoffs by a game and still be considered for manager of the year. Jerry Manuel does the same thing, he should be fired, period.

soxtalker
08-26-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
The funny thing is going to be this off season. I promise you Manuel is going to seek a contract extension or he will threaten to walk. I think it would be embarassing to have a second rate manager like Manuel walk out on us.


I haven't heard this line of reasoning before. What makes you so sure? I guess that I could see it happening if the Sox won a playoff series or more, but, otherwise, I don't see his bargaining strength. If he did make such a threat, I find it hard to believe that JR/KW would give in.

WhiteSoxWinner
08-26-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Of course it also depends on the quality, average age and recent successes of your team to make that judgement. Tony Pena can miss the playoffs by a game and still be considered for manager of the year. Jerry Manuel does the same thing, he should be fired, period.

Agreed. Last year, the Sox were suppoed to walk away with the division, looked to have a solid amount of talent, and fell on their collective face. This year, the team was improved with the additions of Loaiza and Colon, not mention the mid-season additions (too many to name), so it is expected that the Sox take the division, and anything less is failure. There were expectations set at the beginning of the year, and the manager is measured against those expectations. The talent on the team is up to par. If they don't win, then you have to question the leadership (read as JM) of this team.

Now, look at the Tigers. They were expected to finish last. As such there is no pressure on Trammell, and he retains his job regardless of the result. Heck, if he finishes out of the cellar, the expectations will rise for next year.

voodoochile
08-26-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Now, look at the Tigers. They were expected to finish last. As such there is no pressure on Trammell, and he retains his job regardless of the result. Heck, if he finishes out of the cellar, the expectations will rise for next year.

If the Tigers finish out of the celler, then Cleveland fires everyone in management and a good chunk of the players too. :)

WhiteSoxWinner
08-26-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If the Tigers finish out of the celler, then Cleveland fires everyone in management and a good chunk of the players too. :)

LOL, good point!

captain54
08-26-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
The talent on the team is up to par.


I know that's the popular opinion, but is it really, though??

this core of players has been together for a while, and havent won a damn thing....it has been a team that has been consistently inconsistent, going on years now....

its the lack of fundamentals, bad baserunning, shoddy defense, and inconsistent offense, due largely to constant lineup shuffling that has this team fighting for the lead in a division that was there's for the taking since day one.....


Reinsdorf is trying to buy a winner on a beer budget....of course its the fans fault, we've been down that road.....Manuel is not the kind of manager that can mold a winner out of a rough sculpture..

the only possible scenario I see him being replaced is if the Sox totally tanked the remainder of this season, and ended up 7 or so games out, which is still within the realm of possibility....

Eddie Gaedel
08-26-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Like it or not, the big picture problem HAS to have a positive outcome for a manager to keep his job. One game out of the playoffs is a big picture failure, plain and simple and in the end, the little pictures (only missed it by one measly game, drat) have little to do with it.

Of course it also depends on the quality, average age and recent successes of your team to make that judgement. Tony Pena can miss the playoffs by a game and still be considered for manager of the year. Jerry Manuel does the same thing, he should be fired, period.

I'm not so sure JM's job would be secure if the SOX just make it to the playoffs. Last time he took the team there they were swept. I think they need to play their butts off in the ALDS if JM expects to be here next year.

ma-gaga
08-26-2003, 02:00 PM
What if the Sox TIE for the AL Central title at the end of the year, then lose the 'one-game' playoff game to get into the 'real' playoffs?

Does that get JM fired?

jeremyb1
08-26-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If your team has the ability and talent to win the division going away, then there is obviously a huge difference between winning the division by 1 game (not pretty but goal achieved) and missing the playoffs by one game (not pretty AND a disaster). So in fact, 1 game here or there can indeed make the difference between a manager being deemed competent and a failure, IMO.

When a manager has clearly made the number of mistakes that Manuel has this season which have cost the Sox well more than 1 game, the only question becomes, "how long do the Sox keep him waiting before firing him." At least that SHOULD be the only question.

Like it or not, the big picture problem HAS to have a positive outcome for a manager to keep his job. One game out of the playoffs is a big picture failure, plain and simple and in the end, the little pictures (only missed it by one measly game, drat) have little to do with it.

Of course it also depends on the quality, average age and recent successes of your team to make that judgement. Tony Pena can miss the playoffs by a game and still be considered for manager of the year. Jerry Manuel does the same thing, he should be fired, period.

I don't think that makes any sense. There's a big difference in the bottom line but not that actual skill of the manager between one game out and making the playoffs. If Manuel were to be fired for losing games, it should've been at the beginning of the season when we were struggling not because his team won at a .580 clip down the stretched and barely missed the playoffs. It was clear at the all-star break that this team wasn't going to run away with the division like most people thought it should have and that if we don't make the playoffs it won't be by a large margin. If you want to fire Manuel for underacheiving so much that the team has to battle for a playoff spot and might not win out so be it but the time to do that was earlier in my opinion.

A.T. Money
08-26-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
What if the Sox TIE for the AL Central title at the end of the year, then lose the 'one-game' playoff game to get into the 'real' playoffs?

Does that get JM fired?

Yes, because you shouldn't be in that predicament in the first place because Ghandi had to tinker so much in the first half. He took Detroit for granted.

voodoochile
08-26-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I don't think that makes any sense. There's a big difference in the bottom line but not that actual skill of the manager between one game out and making the playoffs. If Manuel were to be fired for losing games, it should've been at the beginning of the season when we were struggling not because his team won at a .580 clip down the stretched and barely missed the playoffs. It was clear at the all-star break that this team wasn't going to run away with the division like most people thought it should have and that if we don't make the playoffs it won't be by a large margin. If you want to fire Manuel for underacheiving so much that the team has to battle for a playoff spot and might not win out so be it but the time to do that was earlier in my opinion.

So you think that he should have been fired for his first half performance, but because the team got hot later on and just barely missed the playoffs, he should be retained?

That makes no sense to me. The shoddy job that should have gotten him fired before the hot streak is THE PRIMARY REASON that the team didn't make the playoffs. If he even plays a few games over .500 before the AS break (when you say he deserved to be fired) then the team would be 4+ games in first right now. So if they come back to miss the playoffs by a game, those 3-4 games will have had a huge impact on the season and if they were grounds for termination at the time, then they still are, IMO.

WhiteSoxWinner
08-26-2003, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by captain54
I know that's the popular opinion, but is it really, though??

this core of players has been together for a while, and havent won a damn thing....it has been a team that has been consistently inconsistent, going on years now....

its the lack of fundamentals, bad baserunning, shoddy defense, and inconsistent offense, due largely to constant lineup shuffling that has this team fighting for the lead in a division that was there's for the taking since day one.....


Reinsdorf is trying to buy a winner on a beer budget....of course its the fans fault, we've been down that road.....Manuel is not the kind of manager that can mold a winner out of a rough sculpture..

the only possible scenario I see him being replaced is if the Sox totally tanked the remainder of this season, and ended up 7 or so games out, which is still within the realm of possibility....

Yes, I think the talent has been up to par. The only place where we have been consistently poor the last few years is pitching, and it seemed to be more due to Nardi than the talent (See Wells, Kip and the other pitching talent that has gone on to win in other places), and now he is gone for a full year. Combine the loss of Nardi with the additional help we have this year by adding Colon and Loaiza, and the pitching has become a strength. (PS - JM has some input on that Nardi thing, so he has to have some blame there)

I think we can agree we have always had the talent on offense. That has been the signature of this club the last few years.

Now that the talent is there, it is JM's job to bring it all together and win this division. This is the best opportunity we've had in the last five years. Even when we won in 2000, everyone kept waiting for us to fade, and expected the Indians to win. We were not the pick to take the division that year. This year, we are expected to win. No more passes for JM. If we were good enough to win in 2000, we should have been more competitive the following two years. Now that the demands are on this year, JM has to step up. He has had plenty of passes in the form of fired coaches the last couple years, so now it his turn to perform or be fired. The absolute minimum is the playoffs. Nothing short of that should be acceptable.

Daver
08-26-2003, 04:39 PM
I want him fired even if the Sox win the World Series.

WhiteSoxWinner
08-26-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by daver
I want him fired even if the Sox win the World Series.

Sorry, Daver. This is Chicago. A playoff appearance buys you a free pass for at least two more years. See exhibit A - Wanstedt, Dave and exhibit B - Jauron, Dick.

TornLabrum
08-26-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
For those of you who have posted with certainty that if the Sox fail to make the playoffs Manager Gandhi will be fired, here is some sobering news...

"Asked if he felt he and Manuel are facing an ultimatum from Sox chairman Jerry Reinsdorf to make it to the postseason this year or else, Williams replied:

"He hasn't given me any indication along those lines." --Kenny Williams to the Chicago Tribune.

I don't for a second think that if the Sox come up short, Manager Gandhi's automatically gone. He still would be owed payment for the remaining year on his contract (and I have never seen printed any place how much he makes...) and it would be hard for Unlce Jerry to dismiss a member of a minority group when he is either the head or on the committee to advance minority hirings in baseball (I think he's the chairman...) He'd be getting a lot of pressure from his good friend Bud Selig to keep Manuel around.

Plus you had Reinsdorf's published comments about Manuel's status right after Williams made his comments about how the club better start winning. Uncle jerry refused to agree that Manuel's future was what Williams had in mind with his remarks.

Just something to consider.

Lip

And let's not forget that more than one regular WSI columnist has been saying this.

OEO Magglio
08-26-2003, 10:19 PM
I don't think that makes any sense. There's a big difference in the bottom line but not that actual skill of the manager between one game out and making the playoffs. If Manuel were to be fired for losing games, it should've been at the beginning of the season when we were struggling not because his team won at a .580 clip down the stretched and barely missed the playoffs. It was clear at the all-star break that this team wasn't going to run away with the division like most people thought it should have and that if we don't make the playoffs it won't be by a large margin. If you want to fire Manuel for underacheiving so much that the team has to battle for a playoff spot and might not win out so be it but the time to do that was earlier in my opinion.
I agree with you on the fact that Manuel should have been fired earlier I think most of us agree on that, but no matter what if the sox don't make the playoffs Manuel has to go, if they don't make the playoffs they have underachieved, and because of that and other reasons Manuel should go.

34 Inch Stick
08-27-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by daver
I want him fired even if the Sox win the World Series.

Testify brotha'. But he is here for at least one more year.

Jerko
08-27-2003, 09:13 AM
The fact that this team lost 7 (so far) games to Detroit is enough for me to not shed a tear if JM is launched, even if the Sox make the playoffs. Detroit is on pace to be the worst team EVER and they beat us 7 times?!?!?!?! I am not only talking about this season, the man has tinkered away the first half of the last 3 years with his early season little league rules managing. Any man who puts Ramirez, Baines, and Clayton all in the same lineup is one step away from the nuthouse to begin with. Let's see, from the most wins in the league in 2000 to a 14-29 start in 2001. What's the deal? Yes, I am happy the Sox are in first but I give not props to Manuel for that. He should still be gone. I can't wait for Hawk to say HE GONE and be talking about JM.