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View Full Version : Who has the most heart on this team?


chisoxfanatic
08-25-2003, 04:28 PM
After watching this team for the past five months, I don't think anyone has more heart than Aaron Rowand. He's worked his ass off to bring his batting average from a mere .131 when sent down to a current batting average of .274. He's worked many extra hours in the batting cage in order to raise that batting average. His constant work has HUGELY affected him on the offensive side.

On the flipside, I don't think anyone on this team puts his "life" on the line on the defensive side. He's constantly diving in order to get a softly hit fly ball that may land as a duck snort. In addition, he slams so hard into the outfield wall, it sometimes causes me to close my eyes, since it looks like he's gonna cause some major bodily damage!

Because of such gusty performance, I'd say that Aaron Rowand possesses the most heart on this team.

WhiteSoxWinner
08-25-2003, 04:42 PM
I would have to Manos. He just seemd to be able to ignite this team to rallies. I also think he gets unfairly criticized for his defense because he dives for balls that the Choice just watched. The one complaint I have about Manos' defense is that he should sometimes stick a ball in his pocket rather than throw wildly to first.

I also think that Manos is the guy in the clubhouse that can kick a little tail from time to time when necessary.

PS - This should have been a poll with options.

mike squires
08-25-2003, 05:28 PM
Day in and day out would have to be Jose. He is one of the few guys in the major leagues that seems to really respect and enjoy the game. Playing winter ball every year when he is on the downside to his carrer says alot as well. Will the Sox sign him short term for next year? The farm system has no tru SS prospects that I know of unless the make Tony G a full timer which would be a huge mistake.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2003, 05:30 PM
Valentin no question.

Lip

soxtalker
08-25-2003, 05:38 PM
Judging by the posters on the board over the past couple of years, I'd guess that Valentine will win this hands-down. I am not a big supporter of his, as I'm not very tolerant of his defense (mostly throwing the ball away). And I like Aaron Rowand a lot. However, on the question of heart. Well, it is a little hard to argue against Manos. His passion for the game is obvious, and he just seems to be able to motivate the other guys.

I hope that KW can find someone to replace him next year as the regular SS. Replacing his heart will probably be the more difficult part.

MarqSox
08-25-2003, 05:51 PM
Absolutely Valentin, but I'd like to give honorable mention to Graff. That guy is always ready to play, doesn't matter if he's starting at 3B or filling in late at SS. Solid defense, good spark in the lineup, and the dude never complains about playing time.

MetalliSox
08-25-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'd guess that Valentine will win this hands-down.

Valentine? Guys, come on.

Risk
08-25-2003, 05:59 PM
Esteban--I know he isn't the everyday player, but anyone who comes into spring training as a non-roster invite and is now in the running for the AL Cy Young is all heart. Besides, during the first 2 1/2 months of the season he was really the only one in the starting line-up that was keeping the Sox afloat.

Risk

jcw218
08-25-2003, 05:59 PM
From The Tribune Wed Aug 20:

Jose Valentin isn't about to break out a calculator over the final few weeks of the season.

But his agent might.

Valentin has a somewhat unusual stipulation in his contract: If he reaches 575 plate appearances, he will be under contract next season at $5 million.

Actually, Valentin's magic number is 573. His contract vests with 1,100 combined plate appearances in 2002 and 2003, and he had 527 last season.

Valentin entered Tuesday with 453, putting him on pace to finish with 587.

"Hopefully I can reach that number, but right now I'm just thinking about winning," he said.

For those registered with the Trib here (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030819soxnotes,1,3062119.story?coll=cs-home-headlines) is the link to the full article.

MRKARNO
08-25-2003, 06:42 PM
Now it's gotta be Alomar. He's finally in a sitation where he isnt criticized every day because we didnt expect him to be amazing.

I think that Valentin could show more heart if he ever dived for a ground ball that wouldnt normally go through the gap, but does anyway. Those REALLY piss me off

inta
08-25-2003, 07:09 PM
robbie alomar without a doubt.
i mean this guy dives into first base... that shows some hustle in my book.

valentine... maybe in 2000, he seems asleep far too much in the field.

WHarris13
08-25-2003, 07:12 PM
In terms of hustle, you wont get anymore than what Willie Harris gives.

bc2k
08-25-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by WHarris13
In terms of hustle, you wont get anymore than what Willie Harris gives.

No, Harris is a puss like Crede.

Valentin has been the consensus heart of the team since he's been here but Chisoxfanatic just opened my eyes to ARow. I've always like his hustle and defense, but now he's hitting too. I can't disagree with Graffanino either. If Valentin really cared about this team he'd sacrifice himself and become a full-time left-handed hitter. He makes too many errors on routine plays. Most of us are aware of the way the official scorers only charge errors when they have to, so I don't buy the statement that most, or many of Valentin's errors are due to his vast range. He's not going to be charged with an error on a dive, and if he doesn't have to dive for the ball, then he should be expected to make the play.

It is very upsetting to me that Manuel categorizes Rowand and Harris equally. The only thing these two have in common are their young ages and the fact that they both lost their positions to mid-season veteran acquisitions. ARow is the better defensive option in center, not Everett. But the man who replaced Harris is by far the better defensive and offensive option. Aaron Rowand is a better hitter for average and power than Harris, and is a better defender. If it wasn't for Harris's speed, he wouldn't even be on a major league 25-man roster. Aaron Rowand can have a productive future for the Chicago White Sox.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-25-2003, 07:28 PM
Valentin is not worth $5 million. However, I'm counting on the Sox to play the remainder of this season straight up with the best ballplayers on the ballfield to give us the best chance at winning the division. If that means Valentin gets a bonus, I will be the first to note the front office's new-found focus on winning and offer my props to Williams and Reinsdorf for doing what is necessary to bring post-season baseball to the South Side.

As for Rowand, I'm coming around to the idea of him getting semi-regular playing time in CF. His bat is definitely improved since his trip to Charlotte. However I would expect Manuel to keep Everett's bat in the lineup at DH, placing Frank at 1B and Konerko on the bench. Of course that will never happen because Manuel is too bullheaded to let it happen. :angry:

I think nearly all ballplayers have a lot of "heart." They wouldn't have made it to the Show if they didn't. However if we're going to split hairs, Valentin and Rowand would appear to have a bit more heart than average.

jabrch
08-25-2003, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Valentin is not worth $5 million.

Ok, we know he isn't good defensively...bottom 1/4 of the MLB SS. He is #2 of all SS in HRs. He has driven in 65 runs and scored 60. His average is .240...That isn't terrible for a SS.

Now is he worth $5MM? Lets look at other veteran SS outside of the top tier guys...

Alex Gonzalez - ChN - 4.5MM
Alex Gonzalez - FLA - 2MM
Clayton - 2MM
Auralia - 5MM
Loretta - 4MM


I'd take Valentin @ 5MM over all those guys except the Marlins Gonzalez. I don't think he is a terrible buy at that price...

That said, I'd dump him off the payroll and add another 5MM and try and pay 10MM to get Tejada or Suzuki.

jeremyb1
08-25-2003, 09:12 PM
A better question might be does it really matter who has the most heart? Whether the end result is influenced by effort or the lack thereof, all that matters to me is who produces the most, who helps this team win ball games.

TornLabrum
08-25-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
A better question might be does it really matter who has the most heart? Whether the end result is influenced by effort or the lack thereof, all that matters to me is who produces the most, who helps this team win ball games.

It matters because Ya gotta have heart. In fact, all ya really need is heart.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-25-2003, 09:44 PM
My problem with the term "heart" is that it is often just meant to mask the writer's real sentiments, "lack of talent."

Hey, nobody has more heart than me. I can promise 110 percent effort on every weak nubber I ever managed to dribble back to the mound. I would run as fast as I can after every pop fly over my head, and make the hardest throws my weak arm muscles will allow.

Nobody would ever out-heart me. But that doesn't mean I should be playing for the Sox. :smile:

Daver
08-25-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
My problem with the term "heart" is that it is often just meant to mask the writer's real sentiments, "lack of talent."

Hey, nobody has more heart than me. I can promise 110 percent effort on every weak nubber I ever managed to dribble back to the mound. I would run as fast as I can after every pop fly over my head, and make the hardest throws my weak arm muscles will allow.

Nobody would ever out-heart me. But that doesn't mean I should be playing for the Sox.

The same could be said for Aaron Rowand,he has so much heart that he doesn't have the brains to know where he is at in centerfield.

Jjav829
08-25-2003, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
My problem with the term "heart" is that it is often just meant to mask the writer's real sentiments, "lack of talent."

Hey, nobody has more heart than me. I can promise 110 percent effort on every weak nubber I ever managed to dribble back to the mound. I would run as fast as I can after every pop fly over my head, and make the hardest throws my weak arm muscles will allow.

Nobody would ever out-heart me. But that doesn't mean I should be playing for the Sox. :smile:

Agreed. But I think that is the point. For some guys it is almost natural to them that they can crush a ball 400 feet and it becomes almost routine. Others aren't born with that ability and for them they need to work hard and bust their ass every day. The best example is David Eckstein. He doesn't have a lot of talent. But he hustles on every play. He'll run out every grounder that most players take for granted as an out. And for a guy like him, it's that will or "heart" that got him a chance and helps keep him in the league.

As for what Sox player has the most heart, I would have to agree with some of the previous posts and say Rowand, Valentin, and Graf.

SoxOnTop
08-26-2003, 12:48 AM
I agree with PHG that often times people associate heart with lack of talent. That being said, how come no one has mentioned El Cabaillo? C-Lee obviously has no defensive skill and yet busts his hump in the off season to improve and dives for every ball he can get to. While he still isn't great defensively he never gives up on a ball and hustles his rear off. That's got amount to something.

WhiteSox = Life
08-26-2003, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
I agree with PHG that often times people associate heart with lack of talent. That being said, how come no one has mentioned El Cabaillo? C-Lee obviously has no defensive skill and yet busts his hump in the off season to improve and dives for every ball he can get to. While he still isn't great defensively he never gives up on a ball and hustles his rear off. That's got amount to something.

Defensively, Carlos has improved a lot but I still get pissed when he holds the ball on base hits to left field. He waits for the runner(s) to move and it just makes me uneasy. I'd say he has heart on defense.

Offensively, Carlos almost always swings for the fence. He'll occasionally hit the ball to the right side to advance runners or do other good things while hitting, but overall, way too much effort for only home runs. Lacking in heart here.

On the bases, Carlos can be very scary at times, but he tries to stay a aggressive which is commendable, if only it weren't mostly stupid. Also, lacking a bit in heart here. More so in wise base-running decisions.

Overall, if Carlos would just keep his head in the game and concentrate while at bat more often, he would definitely be at the top of the team in terms of heart.

Mammoo
08-26-2003, 03:47 AM
...Jose Valentin. He's the every day guy the White Sox could least afford to lose.

gosox41
08-26-2003, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
Valentine? Guys, come on.

You didn't hear? BobbyV was brought in to be a player/manager for the Sox down the stretch run.

:smile:

Bob

soxrox2003
08-26-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Absolutely Valentin, but I'd like to give honorable mention to Graff. That guy is always ready to play, doesn't matter if he's starting at 3B or filling in late at SS. Solid defense, good spark in the lineup, and the dude never complains about playing time.

Oh id vote for Jose as most selfish player, but most heart? *****!!!! Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

chisoxfanatic
08-26-2003, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by soxrox2003
Oh id vote for Jose as most selfish player, but most heart? *****!!!! Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

SELFISH??? How is Jose selfish??? He works extra hard to be his best and is $ in clutch situations. He's always putting the team first, looking for ways to bring the team together...I don't know which Jose you've been seeing.

jabrch
08-26-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Absolutely Valentin, but I'd like to give honorable mention to Graff. That guy is always ready to play, doesn't matter if he's starting at 3B or filling in late at SS. Solid defense, good spark in the lineup, and the dude never complains about playing time.

He shouldn't EVER complain about playing time...Until he becomes a better fielder, he is lucky to get playing time. He is 10 HRs away from being Royce Clayton... (well...not exactly..but)

WhiteSoxWinner
08-26-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by soxrox2003
Oh id vote for Jose as most selfish player, but most heart? *****!!!! Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

I think you forgot your teal. If not, how can youjustify this?

maurice
08-26-2003, 11:14 AM
Valentin has Lenny Dykstra Syndrome (not to be confused with Steve Sax Disease). He thinks he's 6'5, 280, so he swings for the fences every at-bat, irrespective of the situation (e.g., runner on third with less than two outs and leading off an inning). While his defense has been better since Robbie joined the club, Valentin traditionally boots routine plays, probably due to lack of focus. He used to be a very good base runner, but he's been terrible this season.

In sum, I'd like to see him gone, but first KW needs to line up a replacement. He tried and failed once before.

Iwritecode
08-26-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Ok, we know he isn't good defensively...bottom 1/4 of the MLB SS. He is #2 of all SS in HRs. He has driven in 65 runs and scored 60. His average is .240...That isn't terrible for a SS.

Now is he worth $5MM? Lets look at other veteran SS outside of the top tier guys...

Alex Gonzalez - ChN - 4.5MM
Alex Gonzalez - FLA - 2MM
Clayton - 2MM
Auralia - 5MM
Loretta - 4MM


I'd take Valentin @ 5MM over all those guys except the Marlins Gonzalez. I don't think he is a terrible buy at that price...

That said, I'd dump him off the payroll and add another 5MM and try and pay 10MM to get Tejada or Suzuki.

It's kinda funny how we all talk about Jose not being worth 5MM, but we forget that just a few short years ago he turned down a better offer to play here because he believed the Sox had a better shot at winning. Obviously somebody out there thought he was worth more than 5MM not too long ago...

maurice
08-26-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It's kinda funny how we all talk about Jose not being worth 5MM, but we forget that just a few short years ago he turned down a better offer to play here because he believed the Sox had a better shot at winning. Obviously somebody out there thought he was worth more than 5MM not too long ago...

IIRC, the other offer was from Baltimore, famous for blowing big money on losing teams.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-26-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by maurice
IIRC, the other offer was from Baltimore, famous for blowing big money on losing teams.

Yes, it was Baltimore who offered Valentin more money. He took less to sign with the Sox because he said he had a chance to win. To my knowledge he is the first and only ballplayer to ever accept LESS money to play for the Sox just so he could play on a winner. It's one of the more endearing bits about Manos.

How did the Sox return the favor? After failing to even have an audience with Arod's agent Scott Boras, Williams traded for Royce Clayton. Valentin spent the next two seasons ping-ponging between CF and 3B for a shortstop who (most would say) was an inferior ballplayer.

Of course Clayton "set a fielding percentage record that will probably last forever" (his chosen Sox epitaph after getting cut by the Sox) so it all comes out in the wash. :cool:

Oh, and lets not forget that "lots of ballplayers don't wear their shoes late in the game," too. That was his excuse after arriving in Milwaukee. :smile:

I suppose we could do a lot worse than paying Valentin $5 million to be our shortstop. We once paid Clayton the same amount. :D:

ma-gaga
08-26-2003, 03:08 PM
Frank Thomas.

Without a doubt, the biggest turnaround from last year. Maybe he doesn't 'hustle' everything, but the guy takes the brunt of the media attention and has been able to handle it SO MUCH better than the last couple of years.

Amazing what happens when he stops complaining about being underpaid... My nomination goes away if he starts bitching about his contract status.

voodoochile
08-26-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Frank Thomas.

Without a doubt, the biggest turnaround from last year. Maybe he doesn't 'hustle' everything, but the guy takes the brunt of the media attention and has been able to handle it SO MUCH better than the last couple of years.

Amazing what happens when he stops complaining about being underpaid... My nomination goes away if he starts bitching about his contract status.

Wow, and that from a Twins fan. I was going to put it up, but I figured everyone would just say, "That's Voodoo for you." (say that 5 times fast if you can). One can make the argument that the reason he is no longer bitching is because he has stability if he chooses and can finish his career as a White Sox player if he wants to. Now all he has to worry about is the inside corner and the outside slider...

:hurt
"Thanks for the props, Twins fan. Hope I can do my part to piss you off these next 5 weeks..."

dirty_k
08-26-2003, 05:13 PM
Frank's heart seems to often come out at the wrong time - like arguing a called third strike. For most heart that is productive towards getting the team's energy level up I'd have to say Valentine. And the fans at the Cell have been pretty good this year (I'm not talking so much attendence wise as being into the game) which may have something to do with the team's good home record.

Gumshoe
08-28-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
I agree with PHG that often times people associate heart with lack of talent. That being said, how come no one has mentioned El Cabaillo? C-Lee obviously has no defensive skill and yet busts his hump in the off season to improve and dives for every ball he can get to. While he still isn't great defensively he never gives up on a ball and hustles his rear off. That's got amount to something.

gentleman, after my sabbatical, i'm back. SoxOnTop has it right on here. We haven't heard any dissing of Jose because finally people realize that he is FINE and is a GREAT asset to any team that WANTS TO WIN. What a great player. But Lee is the MVP (in relative terms) for this team. Look at his hustle, his baserunning, his good D (he is a good left fielder now, what improvement he has shown over 3 years) and his power numbers are bigger than Frank's, and he is switched every day in the lineup? Frank's time (although I hope he can keep it going this season) is about up. Lee at the #3 spot is going to be just as huge eventually and it will give us more flexibility. hey, This year, Carlos is the MVP.

Maggs might be the most underrated player of ALL TIME though. Remember about 2 months ago when he was hitting .269? I love that guy. .321 and climbing, so good

Gumshoe