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VaSoxfan
08-24-2003, 10:25 PM
According to the Trib, Manuel is giving Buehrle an extra day of rest and Cotts will go Thursday in NY.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030824insidesox,1,4975310.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

MRKARNO
08-24-2003, 10:42 PM
This could be a HUGE career booster if he wins or a big setback if he breaks down

voodoochile
08-24-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
This could be a HUGE career booster if he wins or a big setback if he breaks down

Yeah, the kid could could benefit or suffer too... :D:

duke of dorwood
08-24-2003, 10:47 PM
My daughter, foulkesfan 11 will be there for that one

dougs78
08-24-2003, 11:00 PM
I also noted something a little further down that article. Koch talking about being ready to come back. The short blurb was more about him wanting to help the team. But one quote really stood out to me:

Koch said he planned to work on throwing his off-speed pitches Monday "because my fastball is back."

I really like the sound of that. If we get him anywhere near where he was in past years, our bullpen is fearsome. As long as our big 3 starters can continue pitching well, we should be in good shape down this home stretch.

HawkDJ
08-24-2003, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
[B
I really like the sound of that. If we get him anywhere near where he was in past years, our bullpen is fearsome. As long as our big 3 starters can continue pitching well, we should be in good shape down this home stretch. [/B]

Koch is a big wildcard for us. If he does get back to what he was in the past it would be such a huge boost for us.

chisoxfanatic
08-24-2003, 11:32 PM
I don't like this idea of starting Cotts at Yankee Stadium. He's gotta break into the league first. I'd throw a proven veteran at the Yankees instead! Manuel's gotta flip his rotation a little to assure that this happens.

I went to college with Neal Cotts for one year and just want nothing but the best for him!!!

I'm thinking that the article may be wrong, since Manuel pulled Buehrle rather early last night. He was probably pulled so that he would have extra rest for a Thursday game. Monday is an off day, so he CAN pitch Thursday.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2003, 12:30 AM
That would be a MAJOR mistake especially if the Sox piss away the first two games to Clemens and Mussina.

This club CAN NOT afford a sweep, even winning one game is better then what the Royals did in NY.

If you have to pitch Cotts DO IT IN DETROIT!

Buehrle only went six innings Saturday. He can pitch. He'll get all the rest he needs after the season. Sox fans can only hope the rest doesn't start in early October.

Lip

Lip Man 1
08-25-2003, 12:42 AM
Something for Manager Moron...err I mean Manager Gandhi to think about before stating that Neil Cotts goes Thursday in NYC...from the Chicago Tribune.

"The Sox will be pumped up and trying to hold on to first place when the play Tuesday through Thursday at Yankee Stadium, but here are some sobering stats:

New York pitchers have issued the fewest walks in the American League with 294.

Yankees pitchers have permitted the fewest home runs with 115.

Mussina ranks fifth in the league with an ERA of 3.18 and Clemens ninth at 3.59. Mussina and Clemens are tied for the league strikeout lead with 164 apiece.

Opponents bat .226 against Mussina, ranking third in the AL, and Clemens is tied for eighth at .243."

The point is the Sox could easily lose two games of this series, and yet Gandhi wants to pitch Cotts Thursday????? He's lost all rational thought hasn't he?

You tell BOTH Mark and Neil to be ready Thursday. If the Sox blow the first two, Buehrle goes...if they win one or both then Cotts goes.

Very simple.

This is insane! (and we KNOW how the Sox play on the road don't we?)

Lip

RichH55
08-25-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Something for Manager Moron...err I mean Manager Gandhi to think about before stating that Neil Cotts goes Thursday in NYC...from the Chicago Tribune.

"The Sox will be pumped up and trying to hold on to first place when the play Tuesday through Thursday at Yankee Stadium, but here are some sobering stats:

New York pitchers have issued the fewest walks in the American League with 294.

Yankees pitchers have permitted the fewest home runs with 115.

Mussina ranks fifth in the league with an ERA of 3.18 and Clemens ninth at 3.59. Mussina and Clemens are tied for the league strikeout lead with 164 apiece.

Opponents bat .226 against Mussina, ranking third in the AL, and Clemens is tied for eighth at .243."

The point is the Sox could easily lose two games of this series, and yet Gandhi wants to pitch Cotts Thursday????? He's lost all rational thought hasn't he?

You tell BOTH Mark and Neil to be ready Thursday. If the Sox blow the first two, Buehrle goes...if they win one or both then Cotts goes.

Very simple.

This is insane! (and we KNOW how the Sox play on the road don't we?)

Lip


Wouldnt telling both to be ready undermine Cotts's confidence as well? And perhaps the teams too? I know its prudent to plan ahead, but you don't want it to be looking like you think you are going to blow the first two games either

voodoochile
08-25-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Wouldnt telling both to be ready undermine Cotts's confidence as well? And perhaps the teams too? I know its prudent to plan ahead, but you don't want it to be looking like you think you are going to blow the first two games either

I think Lip is wrong anyway. Just start Mark on Thursday and call it a day. Keep him on a short pitch count if you have to..

dougs78
08-25-2003, 07:12 AM
Lets not forget that we do have our two best pitchers going in games 1 and 2 as well. Obviously this series is going to be tough. But come on, if we can't win one of those two games with Loiaza or Colon on the hill, then how confident are you in this team anyway? Our offense needs to be ready to hit, we need to get quality starts, and our bullpen needs to be on its game. Sounds like a playoff series to me. I'm anxious to see how we respond.

NewyorkSoxFan
08-25-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by dougs78
I also noted something a little further down that article. Koch talking about being ready to come back. The short blurb was more about him wanting to help the team. But one quote really stood out to me:



I really like the sound of that. If we get him anywhere near where he was in past years, our bullpen is fearsome. As long as our big 3 starters can continue pitching well, we should be in good shape down this home stretch.


I'll believe his fastball is back when I see it. This is a guy who denied he was hurt, and he was all along, so why should we trust him here? When he blows somebody away, then I will believe. Until then keep throwing sliders and curves.

NYSF

jabrch
08-25-2003, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by NewyorkSoxFan
I'll believe his fastball is back when I see it. This is a guy who denied he was hurt, and he was all along, so why should we trust him here? When he blows somebody away, then I will believe. Until then keep throwing sliders and curves.

NYSF

but I'll believe it when I see it also. It would be great to have him back as a setup guy to take on righties. With him and Sullivan setting up for Gordon from the right and Schoenweiss and Wunsch before Marte from the left, we wouldn't need more than 5 good innings from out 4th and 5th starters in September.

That would be huge!

34 Inch Stick
08-25-2003, 10:41 AM
I believe this has bigger repercussions. Not only does it give Cotts a start in New York but then he also will have to go against Boston. If you leave him until the second Detroit game then he can miss another start with the day off after the Boston series.

He should pitch the second Detroit game then start the third Cleveland game. That allows you to give Cotts the best opportunity to succeed. It also puts your best pitchers up against the best teams. Finally, my idea allows you to have Garland, Buhrle, Colon and Loiza pitch the four games aginst Minnesota. Jerry you F'n moron if Billy Idol (and I) can see it why can't you.

The key to the game is to get your best players on the field as often as possible. This is lost on Jerry. In a best case scenario Cotts is only going to go 6 innings. So just limit Buhrle to that amount and tell your pen all hands on deck for that day. I absolutely am floored by this decision.

Now Joe Cowley can get back on the SCORE again next Sunday and tell any Manuel detractors that they don't know baseball. Up yours too Joe Cowley.

soxtalker
08-25-2003, 10:57 AM
It occurs to me that this fits something of a pattern with Manuel. He likes to do things to help his players develop confidence in themselves. (Notice that this doesn't apply so much to experienced pitchers like Colon or Buerhle.) So, this is a golden opportunity for Neal Cotts to make it big in one of the biggest pressure cookers. It's great if it works, but it seems like a high-risk strategy right now.

D'Angelo F Death
08-25-2003, 11:31 AM
What a weird, bizarre, stupid decision...and it serves to piss off Buerhle too...c'mon Manuel!

RKMeibalane
08-25-2003, 12:48 PM
This has disaster written all over it.

****ing idiot -------------------------------------> :jerry

Lip Man 1
08-25-2003, 12:59 PM
Look at this decision in this context:

Cotts has had MAJOR control issues against the Angels and Rangers line ups.

The Yankees are some of the most experienced, patient hitters in baseball.

If Cotts has his usual problems he may very well walk five or six guys and be lifted in the 3rd or 4th inning. What happens to the bullpen? (especially if they are used hard on Tuesday and Wednesday) If they have to pitch five or six innings Thursday does that lead to a melt down in Detroit? (where the Sox have absolutely NO excuses for losing...)

Again this "decision" is absolutely INSANE.

Lip

RichH55
08-25-2003, 01:04 PM
You know....normally what is written here doesn't convince me on things....some might call that stubborn, others might just say I have the research done...but I'm pulling a Moron here and flip flopping.

SOme excellent points brought up about future schuedles, and to a lesser extent pissing Buerhle off....So I know think this is foolish to start Cotts, but I still don't buy the protect against getting swept ideal

luvsox56
08-25-2003, 02:35 PM
I am sure some of you have already seen this on whitesox.com, but in case you haven't:

Matters of the mound: Mark Buehrle has never pitched in Yankees Stadium. That streak will continue until 2004.

The White Sox moved back Buehrle's scheduled start Thursday against Mike Mussina to Friday against Detroit in Comerica Park. The left-hander has an 8-3 career record against the Tigers, with an earned run average below 2.00. He is 0-1 with a 4.61 ERA against the Yankees.

But the move had very little to do with the potential matchups as it did with keeping Buehrle fresh down the home stretch in September. Buehrle mentioned that his arm felt "kind of tight" while warming up for Saturday's game

"Mark was feeling OK but not quite like he would like to feel," said White Sox manager Jerry Manuel of Buehrle. "At this time of year, when we have the chance to give him an extra day, we will take advantage of it until we have to push."

"I have no soreness, and I told them I wanted the best team and to go against Mussina," Buehrle added. "But it's their decision. They can give me the ball whenever they give it to me, and I'll do the best I can."

Neal Cotts stays on schedule for his fourth Major-League start, pitching on five days rest at Yankees Stadium. The rookie left-hander maintained his same low-key approach regarding the great opportunity.

"I'm going to treat it like any other game," Cotts said. "I'm just going to stay focused and try to do my job. It's going to be a thrill getting to throw at Yankees Stadium, but you still have to go out there and do your thing like any other game."

"They felt we were doing well," Buehrle added. "There was no reason to skip Neal."

Looks to me like Buehrle wants to pitch...

CHISOXFAN13
08-25-2003, 02:58 PM
I think those of you who are ripping Manuel for this decision are slow to recall the struggles of one Mark Buerhle in September last year.

When do we need him most? Thursday or Sept. 25, 26, 27 or 28 against KC.

RKMeibalane
08-25-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
I think those of you who are ripping Manuel for this decision are slow to recall the struggles of one Mark Buerhle in September last year.

When do we need him most? Thursday or Sept. 25, 26, 27 or 28 against KC.

I'm hoping the Sox can somehow wrap this thing up by then. Maybe I'm expecting too much out of them.

CHISOXFAN13
08-25-2003, 03:09 PM
I hope so too.

I also believe that Jerry can make a switch if he deems it necessary. If we lose the first two (which I don't see happening), I wouldn't be shocked to see Buerhle get the ball after all on Thursday.

Who knows? Maybe we'll get a win from Cotts. He's pitched very well (minus the walks) against a team who might very well have the best offense in the league right now.

voodoochile
08-25-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by luvsox56
Neal Cotts stays on schedule for his fourth Major-League start, pitching on five days rest at Yankees Stadium. The rookie left-hander maintained his same low-key approach regarding the great opportunity.

"I'm going to treat it like any other game," Cotts said. "I'm just going to stay focused and try to do my job. It's going to be a thrill getting to throw at Yankees Stadium, but you still have to go out there and do your thing like any other game."


Sounds like Cooper better keep a paper bag handy on Thursday. The absolute worst thing Cotts can do is try to "treat it like any other day", because there is about a 1% chance that it actually will BE just any other day when he is actually experiencing it. Feel the moment kid, but don't try to run from it. You will get eaten alive...

I agree... Buehrle wants the ball. Lets see what actually happens...

LASOXFAN
08-25-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
Lets not forget that we do have our two best pitchers going in games 1 and 2 as well. Obviously this series is going to be tough. But come on, if we can't win one of those two games with Loiaza or Colon on the hill, then how confident are you in this team anyway? Our offense needs to be ready to hit, we need to get quality starts, and our bullpen needs to be on its game. Sounds like a playoff series to me. I'm anxious to see how we respond.

Amen brother! It's time for this team to show what's inside the cup. If they can't beat the Yankees in the Bronx then what's the point of playing in October? Everybody's talking about who has the easier schedule. Who cares? You gotta win against the good teams at some point, why not now? And for everyone who thinks the Twins are lucky just remember that they got plastered by the Yankees earlier in the year when NY couldn't be beat. We're lucky we didn't face them then too!

soxtalker
08-25-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by luvsox56
I am sure some of you have already seen this on whitesox.com, but in case you haven't:

Matters of the mound: Mark Buehrle has never pitched in Yankees Stadium. That streak will continue until 2004.

The White Sox moved back Buehrle's scheduled start Thursday against Mike Mussina to Friday against Detroit in Comerica Park. The left-hander has an 8-3 career record against the Tigers, with an earned run average below 2.00. He is 0-1 with a 4.61 ERA against the Yankees.

But the move had very little to do with the potential matchups as it did with keeping Buehrle fresh down the home stretch in September. Buehrle mentioned that his arm felt "kind of tight" while warming up for Saturday's game

"Mark was feeling OK but not quite like he would like to feel," said White Sox manager Jerry Manuel of Buehrle. "At this time of year, when we have the chance to give him an extra day, we will take advantage of it until we have to push."

"I have no soreness, and I told them I wanted the best team and to go against Mussina," Buehrle added. "But it's their decision. They can give me the ball whenever they give it to me, and I'll do the best I can."

Neal Cotts stays on schedule for his fourth Major-League start, pitching on five days rest at Yankees Stadium. The rookie left-hander maintained his same low-key approach regarding the great opportunity.

"I'm going to treat it like any other game," Cotts said. "I'm just going to stay focused and try to do my job. It's going to be a thrill getting to throw at Yankees Stadium, but you still have to go out there and do your thing like any other game."

"They felt we were doing well," Buehrle added. "There was no reason to skip Neal."

Looks to me like Buehrle wants to pitch...

Sounds like Cotts is trying to convince himself...

There are probably a bunch of ways to put some positive spin on this. For example, Buerhle also has a better chance of winning Friday in Detroit than does Cotts. A win in NY on Thursday would be huge, but there is also likely to be a let-down in Detroit on Friday. (We do have examples of that.) Another point is that we may face the Yankees in the playoffs, where we will use Buerhle. It probably doesn't hurt us for them not to see him.

LASOXFAN
08-25-2003, 05:55 PM
[i] Another point is that we may face the Yankees in the playoffs, where we will use Buerhle. It probably doesn't hurt us for them not to see him. [/B]

I like your thinking!

TornLabrum
08-25-2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
I think those of you who are ripping Manuel for this decision are slow to recall the struggles of one Mark Buerhle in September last year.

When do we need him most? Thursday or Sept. 25, 26, 27 or 28 against KC.

That depends on whether we're still in the race on Sept. 25-28.

Shoeless Joe
08-25-2003, 07:40 PM
Just a couple of thoughts I wanted to share:

It's obvious that Cotts starting in Yankees Stadium is not something you want for a young pitcher or the team but it might turn up good. As I recall Billy Traber from the Jndjans threw a one hitter against the Yanks and that was only his 6th major league start. Also Mark Buehrle hasn't exactly been lights out against the Yankees (0-1, 4.61 ERA in two starts against them). This also enables the Sox rotation to now have Buehrle to follow Loaiza instead of Buehrle - Garland - Loaiza.

However, I understand what this could potentially do negatively: i.e. we lose the first two and we have a rookie starting for us and the Yankees get the sweep. But IMO the Sox are going to get the first two of the series and I see Cotts throwing good as well.

I think the bigger issue will be what the offense will do against formidable opponents while on the road. This offense is just not the same once they leave Chicago.

jeremyb1
08-25-2003, 08:19 PM
Am I the only one who realizes that this doesn't seem to be a managerial move?! Buehrle's arm is "tight" and Manuel is quoted as saying he doesn't feel as well as he'd like to and you guys don't give that two seconds thought. Lets stop for a minute and consider that 1) Buehrle is our second best starter and has pitched very well as of late 2) Buehrle is more or less the cornerstone of the franchise at this point since he's a 24 year old ace with three years left on his contract. I don't see how anyone can dispute this decision since they haven't talked to Buehrle or Herm or anyone else with information about the situation and the reports in the papers indicate he is not 100%. How you could ever consider failing to err on the safe side for the benefit of one game in this situation is mind boggling. The number one priority needs to be to keep Buehrle healthy and effective. This isn't a managerial or strategical decision its a critical health decision.

TornLabrum
08-25-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Am I the only one who realizes that this doesn't seem to be a managerial move?! Buehrle's arm is "tight" and Manuel is quoted as saying he doesn't feel as well as he'd like to and you guys don't give that two seconds thought. Lets stop for a minute and consider that 1) Buehrle is our second best starter and has pitched very well as of late 2) Buehrle is more or less the cornerstone of the franchise at this point since he's a 24 year old ace with three years left on his contract. I don't see how anyone can dispute this decision since they haven't talked to Buehrle or Herm or anyone else with information about the situation and the reports in the papers indicate he is not 100%. How you could ever consider failing to err on the safe side for the benefit of one game in this situation is mind boggling. The number one priority needs to be to keep Buehrle healthy and effective. This isn't a managerial or strategical decision its a critical health decision.

You and I are in agreement as long as Buehrle himself is complaining about his arm. If he's not, that's another story.

jeremyb1
08-25-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
You and I are in agreement as long as Buehrle himself is complaining about his arm. If he's not, that's another story.

Manuel said Buehrle was feeling all right Saturday, "but not quite like he would like to feel."

I don't see how that could be anyone other then Buehrle complaining about his arm and I don't see how he could be 100% at the time he spoke with Manuel considering the quote.

34 Inch Stick
08-26-2003, 10:41 AM
Am I the only one who read the whole article and saw Buhrle say I HAVE NO SORENESS.

You want the best evidence, take it directly from the source, not Jerry Manuel.

It's a stupid decision. If it works out it still does not make it sound thinking on the part of Manuel.

soxtalker
08-26-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Am I the only one who read the whole article and saw Buhrle say I HAVE NO SORENESS.

You want the best evidence, take it directly from the source, not Jerry Manuel.


I'm afraid that I have to disagree. Buerhle is a competitor. He wants to go out and pitch against the Yankees. That's admirable. However, it also might cloud his judgement about whether that "little bit of soreness" or "twinge of stiffness" is really there. How many times have we seen a manager go out to talk to a pitcher who is on the ropes but will tell the manager that he still has it. This is a question of judgement. Hopefully, the manager and pitching coach have some insight into the real condition of their pitcher. I must admit that I share some concern about Manuel's judgement in this area; he's made a couple of obvious errors with Colon.

This has been a very interesting thread. My first reaction was that this was a bad move; I couldn't believe that Manuel would pitch a rookie who has clearly been nervous in his earlier starts over Buerhle. However, the concerns about keeping Buerhle fresh and healthy for the stretch run are worthwhile. So, I'm leaning in favor of the Cotts decision. Of course, Manuel's is the only vote that counts ....

voodoochile
08-26-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'm afraid that I have to disagree. Buerhle is a competitor. He wants to go out and pitch against the Yankees. That's admirable. However, it also might cloud his judgement about whether that "little bit of soreness" or "twinge of stiffness" is really there. How many times have we seen a manager go out to talk to a pitcher who is on the ropes but will tell the manager that he still has it. This is a question of judgement. Hopefully, the manager and pitching coach have some insight into the real condition of their pitcher. I must admit that I share some concern about Manuel's judgement in this area; he's made a couple of obvious errors with Colon.

This has been a very interesting thread. My first reaction was that this was a bad move; I couldn't believe that Manuel would pitch a rookie who has clearly been nervous in his earlier starts over Buerhle. However, the concerns about keeping Buerhle fresh and healthy for the stretch run are worthwhile. So, I'm leaning in favor of the Cotts decision. Of course, Manuel's is the only vote that counts ....

If Buehrle wants to start and is capable of starting he should. Anything else is more of Jerry's over-mamaging, IMO. Stop thinking so much, JM. You got the offday, you talked about skipping #5 a lot down the stretch. Now do it. If Buehrle isn't able to start on Thursday then the Sox have bigger issues, anyway...

soxtalker
08-26-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If Buehrle wants to start and is capable of starting he should. Anything else is more of Jerry's over-mamaging, IMO. Stop thinking so much, JM. You got the offday, you talked about skipping #5 a lot down the stretch. Now do it. If Buehrle isn't able to start on Thursday then the Sox have bigger issues, anyway...

I do not like defending JM. And, in fact, my gut tells me the same thing. JM tends to over-manage. The only thing that makes me side with him in this instance is the mention of soreness. I know that Buerhle said that he feels fine now, but, as I said in my last posting, Mark may not be the best judge. If it was Colon, I'd argue differently -- for two reasons. First, Colon has much more experience -- not just pitching, but also feeling hurt. So Manuel should have more confidence in Colon's judgement. Second, Colon may only be with us for the remainder of the season; we are counting on Buerhle for three more years.

adsit
08-26-2003, 12:33 PM
I'm considering all sides of this thread... but can't break the logical logjam...

If we can't win now, what exactly are we resting Buehrle for?

If he's right he should go, no question. We had an off day and the rotation should reset, skipping the five hole. I like Cotts okay, but he's not Yankee-ready. And while I've resolved not to needlessly heckle Manuel, starting Cotts in this series (barring a confirmed, vs. speculated, Buehrle injury) is suicidal. It will be JM's decision, and my hopes aren't high it will be a good one.

OTOH, we're almost guaranteed Colon won't mail in his game, as he's been prone to do lately. This will be his Steinbrenner audition. So we might actually take the first two. That will lessen the pain of a Cotts start, but won't eliminate it.

soxtalker
08-26-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by adsit
OTOH, we're almost guaranteed Colon won't mail in his game, as he's been prone to do lately. This will be his Steinbrenner audition.

Now, that's an interesting thought that I hadn't considered. Colon will have lots of additional motivation. I might not go so far as to say that he's been "mailing in" some of his last few starts, as I do think that his back has been stiffening up. But this will be one of his biggest starts outside of a playoff game.

jeremyb1
08-26-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by adsit
If we can't win now, what exactly are we resting Buehrle for?

Uhh, the rest of the season and then the remaining three seasons left on Buehrle's contract. How's that for starters. Suggesting its okay to risk Buehrle's health for one game is taking the "win now" attitude to a sickening level. Lets be realistic here. First of all if Buehrle were to injure himself pitching against the Yankees and had to miss multiple starts down the stretch, that probably kills our playoff chances. If Buehrle is hurt seriously enough that he's out for the playoffs, being eliminated in the first round is even more of a guarantee. Furthermore, this is looking like a 90 win team in the weakest division in baseball, incapable of winning on the road. Do you really want to risk losing Buehrle to a serious arm injury taking away any chances of contending next year or maybe even further down the line? You don't mess around with arm injuries. If someone tells you there arm doesn't feel good you give them some extra time to make sure it does before they start again.

pudge
08-26-2003, 01:06 PM
I think this is an instance where JM takes a bad rap, and I've been a JM basher for a long time.... but....

Why did they have to announce this so early? Are there rules as to when you announce your starters? At the very least, announce Cotts as late as possible, giving the Yankees little time to collect scouting info on him.

Also, what if we lose the first two games and Buehrle feels great come Thursday morning? Don't you HAVE to go to Buehrle then?

I'm sure there was a good reason JM made this call. Let's just hope it all works out...

jeremyb1
08-26-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If Buehrle wants to start and is capable of starting he should. Anything else is more of Jerry's over-mamaging, IMO. Stop thinking so much, JM. You got the offday, you talked about skipping #5 a lot down the stretch. Now do it. If Buehrle isn't able to start on Thursday then the Sox have bigger issues, anyway...

Maybe but there are certainly instances in which a pitcher will go out there when they're not feeling their best because they're very competitive and the manager needs to step in and throw another pitcher that day. I don't want to put the health of our players' in their own hands, I want the training staff and the manager involved. Also, if Buehrle feels better now, that's good but that doesn't necessarily mean that the fact that he wasn't feeling well earlier in the week is irrelevant. I couldn't find that article (link anyone?) but i doubt Buehrle said or implied that his arm felt great at all times and that Manuel lied so that he could get a start for Cotts against the Yankees or something.

Paulwny
08-26-2003, 01:14 PM
I think this is one of JM's usual experiments, wanting to see how well Cotts handles the pressure, 1st time in yankee stadium and a boisterous crowd.
Close the lab hood door, there may be a disaster.

soxtalker
08-26-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Also, if Buehrle feels better now, that's good but that doesn't necessarily mean that the fact that he wasn't feeling well earlier in the week is irrelevant. I couldn't find that article (link anyone?) but i doubt Buehrle said or implied that his arm felt great at all times and that Manuel lied so that he could get a start for Cotts against the Yankees or something.

Also, the pitching coach should be monitoring all of the pitchers constantly. He and Manuel aren't going to announce to the world (and, therefore, the other teams) which pitcher hurts where and when. It is probably quite significant that Manuel mentioned as much as he did.

voodoochile
08-26-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Also, the pitching coach should be monitoring all of the pitchers constantly. He and Manuel aren't going to announce to the world (and, therefore, the other teams) which pitcher hurts where and when. It is probably quite significant that Manuel mentioned as much as he did.

Maybe, or maybe it's just more of Jerry's spin... Royce is benched, psyche. Paulie is benched... psyche. Frank will play first... psyche. Rowand's parents live close by... Daubach's folks were up to see him play...

I don't believe much of what comes out of his mouth anymore. He will say anything to justify his decisions which he makes arbitrarily on a regular basis...

voodoochile
08-26-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I think this is one of JM's usual experiments, wanting to see how well Cotts handles the pressure, 1st time in yankee stadium and a boisterous crowd.
Close the lab hood door, there may be a disaster.

:jerry
"If we can just get Neal going, it will be a huge boost for the playoffs when a fifth starter is so very very important. His confidence could skyrocket when my special lineup scores 2 or more runs that day and Neal pitches a no-no in Yankee stadium..."

PaleHoseGeorge
08-26-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Maybe, or maybe it's just more of Jerry's spin... Royce is benched, psyche. Paulie is benched... psyche. Frank will play first... psyche. Rowand's parents live close by... Daubach's folks were up to see him play...

I don't believe much of what comes out of his mouth anymore. He will say anything to justify his decisions which he makes arbitrarily on a regular basis...

I've said this before, but it bears repeating now. My best advice to the Sox for keeping on a track towards winning the division is the following:

Ignore this man ----------> :jerry .

Just the fact that we're even discussing whether or not to skip the #5 starter speaks volumes about how Jerry Manuel keeps his team on a long steady course straight to .500.

34 Inch Stick
08-26-2003, 01:55 PM
While not saying JM is lying Buhrle said, and this is a quote "I have no soreness", he went on to say that he wanted to pitch on Thursday.

Jeremy, this is not a debate about career threatning injury. If Buhrle is in that kind of trouble the difference between a Thursday or Friday start is irrelevant. This is simple soreness that by all appearances has dissipated.

As an additional point, I believe Buhrle made the original soreness statement to Manuel before he pitched against Texas. He went on to throw 100+ pitches and gave up 1 run in 6 innings.

Further, there has been no statement by Herm Schnieder that Buhrle has any injury or potential for injury.

Now if you need more proof, well then I guess you must have had a great time on the OJ jury.

adsit
08-26-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Uhh, the rest of the season and then the remaining three seasons left on Buehrle's contract. How's that for starters. Suggesting its okay to risk Buehrle's health for one game is taking the "win now" attitude to a sickening level. Lets be realistic here.

I was... or at least I thought I was... when I said "barring a confirmed, vs. speculated, Buehrle injury." If the man's hurt, this isn't a discussion. I've yet to see this confirmed.

Dadawg_77
08-26-2003, 03:09 PM
What if this is all a ruse on Jerry's part? Get the Yankees to think about facing Cotts only to have them see Mark on the mound.

hold2dibber
08-26-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
While not saying JM is lying Buhrle said, and this is a quote "I have no soreness", he went on to say that he wanted to pitch on Thursday.

Jeremy, this is not a debate about career threatning injury. If Buhrle is in that kind of trouble the difference between a Thursday or Friday start is irrelevant. This is simple soreness that by all appearances has dissipated.

As an additional point, I believe Buhrle made the original soreness statement to Manuel before he pitched against Texas. He went on to throw 100+ pitches and gave up 1 run in 6 innings.

Further, there has been no statement by Herm Schnieder that Buhrle has any injury or potential for injury.

Now if you need more proof, well then I guess you must have had a great time on the OJ jury.

We're all just trying to read the tea leaves here as to the state of Buehrle's arm. I don't think anyone here would suggest that Buehrle should start Thursday regardless of whether his arm is hurting him. I think we would all agree that if Buehrle's arm is sore, it makes sense to get him some extra rest. The only real issue up for debate is what the true condition of his arm is. And you sure as hell can't rely on the major newspapers to tell you everything you need to know to make that call. My point? It is impossible for us to know what Buehrle's arm is like right now, so we don't have all of the info needed to critique JM's decision to start Cotts on Thursday. If he is doing it just to see how Cotts reacts to the pressure cooker, he is an idiot (or, I should say, an even bigger idiot than I thought). If he is doing it because of legitimate concerns about Buehrle's arm, he's doing the right thing.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-26-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
What if this is all a ruse on Jerry's part? Get the Yankees to think about facing Cotts only to have them see Mark on the mound.

Boy, I hope you're right. If Manuel is simply playing like an idiot to spring Buehrle on the Yankees, I must say he has done a magnificent job the last 2.5 years setting them up for the fall.

:)

adsit
08-26-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boy, I hope you're right. If Manuel is simply playing like an idiot to spring Buehrle on the Yankees, I must say he has done a magnificent job the last 2.5 years setting them up for the fall.

:)

LMAO! Gigglesnort!

hold2dibber
08-26-2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boy, I hope you're right. If Manuel is simply playing like an idiot to spring Buehrle on the Yankees, I must say he has done a magnificent job the last 2.5 years setting them up for the fall.

:)

:hawk

"I love it when you humorize!"

luvsox56
08-26-2003, 07:44 PM
Ed Farmer just announced that the starter for Thursday's game is now undecided.

He also mentioned a conversation with Buehrle where MB asked Ed if he knew that he had a sore arm and a sore back. When Ed said that he didn't know that, MB replied that he didn't either...

hold2dibber
08-27-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by luvsox56
Ed Farmer just announced that the starter for Thursday's game is now undecided.

He also mentioned a conversation with Buehrle where MB asked Ed if he knew that he had a sore arm and a sore back. When Ed said that he didn't know that, MB replied that he didn't either...

In today's Trib, JM is quoted as saying there is a 99% chance that Buehrle will start on Thursday.

Paulwny
08-27-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
In today's Trib, JM is quoted as saying there is a 99% chance that Buehrle will start on Thursday.

So much for Buehrle's sore whatever.
I don't believe anything JM says, he should be a politician.
If we win today I expect to see Cotts on the mound tomorrow.
Better yet, JM should have been a scientist, the only area that changes are constantly made to see the effect.