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jabrch
08-23-2003, 01:09 PM
Of the AL teams either in contention to win their division, or a Wild Card, how many have bullpens that are, from top to bottom, better than the Sox?

Righties
Wright
Koch
Sullivan
Gordon

Lefties
Shcoenweis
Wunsch
Marte

Yanks - Rivera, Osuna, Orosco, Nelson and Hammond - Rivera is far better than our closers, but none of the rest of those guys are significantly better than our guys.

Red Sox - Aroyo, Embree, Jones, Sauerbeck, Timlin Williamson and Kim? - not better than us...

Seattle - With Sasaki hurt, and with only one lefty, they are pretty marginal

Oakland - Foulke and Bradford are tough from the right, but they have no good lefties in the pen. (Ricardo Rincon?)

KC - added a bunch of guys, but none of them are dominators

Minn - Decent...certainly not significantly better than us either...Tough lefites in Guardado and JC Romero and some decent long relief - but no stud righties to get one hitter...

Our Pen is good enough to win this. We know we can score enough runs to win. 1-3 in our rotation is darn good. 4 is ok and 5 is a ????

Someone tell me why we won't win this?

SoxxoS
08-23-2003, 01:31 PM
:jerry


"Hello."

MRKARNO
08-23-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Of the AL teams either in contention to win their division, or a Wild Card, how many have bullpens that are, from top to bottom, better than the Sox?

Righties
Wright
Koch
Sullivan
Gordon

Lefties
Shcoenweis
Wunsch
Marte

Yanks - Rivera, Osuna, Orosco, Nelson and Hammond - Rivera is far better than our closers, but none of the rest of those guys are significantly better than our guys.

Red Sox - Aroyo, Embree, Jones, Sauerbeck, Timlin Williamson and Kim? - not better than us...

Seattle - With Sasaki hurt, and with only one lefty, they are pretty marginal

Oakland - Foulke and Bradford are tough from the right, but they have no good lefties in the pen. (Ricardo Rincon?)

KC - added a bunch of guys, but none of them are dominators

Minn - Decent...certainly not significantly better than us either...Tough lefites in Guardado and JC Romero and some decent long relief - but no stud righties to get one hitter...

Our Pen is good enough to win this. We know we can score enough runs to win. 1-3 in our rotation is darn good. 4 is ok and 5 is a ????

Someone tell me why we won't win this?

The yankees bullpen WILL come back and bit them in the rear end in the playoffs.

The new and "improved" red sox bullpen isnt much better this time around with Kim blowing saves left and right, the red sox probably dont have the pitching to win a best of seven series.

Seattle doesnt have the mix of righties and lefties that we do, and Rhodes, their only lefty is having an awful year along with Sasaki, but most of their righties are having phenomenal years such as Benitez, Mateo and Rafael Soriano. Shigetoshi Hasegawa has allowed 5 earned runs all year. Go figure.

Oakland's bullpen hasnt been exceptionally good, or exceptionally bad. They've blown a few saves this year.

Kansas City's bullpen has gone from back of the pack, to middle of the road.

Minnesota is the lefty version of Seattle. No exceptionally great righty, but decent righties and some of the best lefty relivers in the league. They are still one of the best bullpens in the AL

I really think that if Marte and Gordon stay consistantly good that the sox do have the best bullpen in the AL, not from top to bottom, but for when it matters. Schoenweis and Danny Wright are also members of our pen. Schoenweis might be able to turn it around and be a good bridge guy so that sullivan isnt overworked. Wright can get out of jams, so he is still valuable in that position. Sullivan is a very good bridge guy, same with Wunsch. Gordon and Marte have been excellent in the second half, especially gordon who changed from the 7th inning guy who messes up a lot to the 9th inning closer in a hurry. I think it only has to do with that pointing to the sky bit. If Koch can come out and be another reliable one inning guy, then we're in business, but we're not gonna tolerate walking the bases loaded anymore.

lowesox
08-23-2003, 02:29 PM
I'd like to look at our bullpen as favourably as you do, but I can't. This simple truth is, we don't have one definite closer. And while Marte has been rock solid - Gordon has been rocky here and there. I think Shoenweiss is better than he's performed for us but in the playoffs a good manager shortens his bench. So what it comes down to is your best three guys.

For the sox I think that's Marte, Gordon and I think Wunsch and Sullivan are tied. But based on that, I think the Yankees, Twins and A's (Oh! To have Keith Foulke still...) have a better pens. I think we're pretty even with Seattle.

But that said, our bullpen is our largest weakness. And I think we have better starting pitching than all of those teams except the A's and maybe the Red Sox.

MarkEdward
08-23-2003, 03:03 PM
Our bullpen is in good shape, as long as Shoeneweis and Koch don't throw in important games.

As for the other 'pens: Boston has had bullpen struggles all year. Alan Embree and Mike Timlin have been their only reliable relievers. Kim and Williamson have struggled since coming to the Red Sox.

As for the Yankees, they're a little better, but not by much. Rivera has been his usual dominating self, Hammond has been good (he actually pitches better than righties, even though he's a lefty), and Osuna's been decent. Nelson has struggled, but he's only pitched eight innings for the Yankees. I don't think he'll pitch much better, though.

Twins: Hawkins and Rincon are the only relievers worth worrying about. If Santana moves back to the pen, then he's also trouble, but considering his success as a starter, I don't see him moving back.

Royals: Leskanic, Levine, and Carrasco have been their only worthwhile relievers. Grimsley's been a big disappointment, and MacDougal's only been around league average.

Athletics: Very good. Foulke and Bradford have been dominating, Rincon's been useful, as has John Halama. As good as the Sox pen, maybe better.

Mariners: Hasegawa's outstanding, Soriano and Mateo have been very good (although Soriano may move to the rotation), Rhodes is dependable, and Sasaki should be fine once he recovers fully from his injury.

To sum it up, I'd compare our pen to the A's. Two great relievers (Foulke, Bradford; Gordon, Marte) and two decent relievers (Halama, Rincon; Wunsch, Sully). Mecir and Neu have been comparable to Koch and Shoeneweis (though the A's duo has not been as bad).

hold2dibber
08-24-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
I'd like to look at our bullpen as favourably as you do, but I can't. This simple truth is, we don't have one definite closer. And while Marte has been rock solid - Gordon has been rocky here and there. I think Shoenweiss is better than he's performed for us but in the playoffs a good manager shortens his bench. So what it comes down to is your best three guys.

For the sox I think that's Marte, Gordon and I think Wunsch and Sullivan are tied. But based on that, I think the Yankees, Twins and A's (Oh! To have Keith Foulke still...) have a better pens. I think we're pretty even with Seattle.

But that said, our bullpen is our largest weakness. And I think we have better starting pitching than all of those teams except the A's and maybe the Red Sox.

I was with you until you said you think the Red Sox (!) have better starting pitching than our Sox. They have Pedro Martinez and . . . and . . . and . . . well, that's about it. Lowe has been pretty lousy, Burkett isn't any good, Wakefield would be a no. 4 starter on the White Sox, and Suppan is JEFF SUPPAN, for Pete's sake. But the Yankees starters are awfully good. Clemens, Mussina, Pettite, Wells - those are 4 guys who would be no. 1 starters on most teams.

MRKARNO
08-24-2003, 12:48 AM
As far as I'm concerned the bullpen is no longer a weakness, but a strength. The ONLY thing holding this team back is will. This team has talent that could win us the series, no question, the only question is if the sox want to win. If they ever decide that every game is important, we're gonna take a lot of games. Looking at our team top to bottom, I cant go and pick out a glaring weakness.

I truly believe that this team is more talented than the yankees. Arent Loaiza, Buehrle and Colon all number one pitchers too? Garland is a solid no. 2 when he's on.

The Pen has shown to be very consistant minus Billy Koch.

We all know what this lineup can do, they showed it today by scoring 13. 3 homers in a game is nothing special for these sox. Didnt we score 12 against the supposedly good Cubs pitching staff? We scored 10 on the best pitching staff in the majors (LA dodgers).

The White sox are second to the A's I believe in quality starts in the AL and the A's lost one of the major contributors of that figure for the season (Mark Mulder)

The White sox are seventh best in the MAJORS in errors.

What's not to like about this team? If the white sox get their act together, and hit consistantly, this team might be unstoppable, dare I say. The pitching has always been there and when we hit, we win, so if the sox can get the early leads like they have been at home, no one is gonna give them up so we'll keep winning!

Let's win 20 in a row right here. :)

MHOUSE
08-24-2003, 12:52 AM
We have the best lefty relievers in the league. Marte is awesome and Wunsch is very underrated but solid as well. Their ERA is about the same. Scho is better than he has been. Those 3 will stack up to and beat any teams' lefty relief corps. Gordon can dominate and hasn't been as shaky lately. Sullivan is very good too. Koch sucks and is on the DL and Wright is strictly mop-up. I'm confident they can get the job done. In a series we can rely on Marte and Sully and have Gordon and Wunsch for spot work. Scho and Wright can do middle relief and nothing clutch.

soxtalker
08-24-2003, 10:35 AM
There is one week to go for waiver deals to go through. There may yet be a trade or two that will change things.

Nick@Nite
08-24-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Our bullpen is in good shape, as long as Shoeneweis and Koch don't throw in important games.

I'm adding Wright to this list. I know he got the save last night... but only because of the huge lead, combined with the Rangers hitting their ropes right at someone for a hang whiff'm.