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Meixner007
08-21-2003, 11:21 PM
FSN poll question is who is manager of the year. Rightfully so Pena is coming in above 60%, but guess who's 2nd. You guessed it.

:jerry

"zzzzzz....huh what did I miss?"

cheeses_h_rice
08-21-2003, 11:23 PM
Sure that doesn't say "WORST manager of the year"? The Sox are winning DESPITE JM; who doesn't know that?

voodoochile
08-21-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Sure that doesn't say "WORST manager of the year"? The Sox are winning DESPITE JM; who doesn't know that?

No, he was actually one of the selections for MOTY in the poll - shocking, but true. Pena - good choice, but the only way JM got the votes he did is because the poll was run during a Sox game and there are a certain number of Sox fans who just don't recognize that the man is evil... sad but true... :D:

In all seriousness, give Jerry props this week He hasn't over managed or done a ton of tinkering and he has done a solid job with the bullpen.

oheeoh...magglio
08-21-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

In all seriousness, give Jerry props this week He hasn't over managed or done a ton of tinkering and he has done a solid job with the bullpen.

I agree with that, but having manuel even MENTIONED in a poll for al manager of the year this year is completely ridiculous.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-21-2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by oheeoh...magglio
I agree with that, but having manuel even MENTIONED in a poll for al manager of the year this year is completely ridiculous.

The national media has been busy ignoring the Sox all season long. How could they possibly know Jerry Manuel has been the single-biggest detriment to the team's success?

Right now Chris Berman is probably appearing with Hootie & the Blowfish at that Indian casino outside Green Bay. :smile:

oheeoh...magglio
08-21-2003, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Right now Chris Berman is probably appearing with Hootie & the Blowfish at that Indian casino outside Green Bay. :smile:

Chris Berman...ha!! I enjoy his football coverage, but when it comes to baseball coverage, that guy is such a tool. And i also wanted to mention, a lot of ppl rip at boston gammons around here, but he mentions magglio ordonez more than any media person i've seen on any espn or national station or show.

TornLabrum
08-21-2003, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
Sure that doesn't say "WORST manager of the year"? The Sox are winning DESPITE JM; who doesn't know that?

Apparently Ron Rappoport doesn't. In today's Sun-Times he wrote a column about the vindication of Jerry Manuel. I wrote him the following email:

Mr. Rappoport:

Exactly what have Jerry Manuel and the White Sox won that vindicates Manuel’s managerial blunders over the past six years?

The last I looked the Sox were tied for first with thirty-five left to play when they should be at least ten games ahead in this division. They wouldn’t have been tied for first place this morning had Damaso Marte not been perfect last night when he came in with the bases loaded and nobody out in the seventh inning and a run already in. One hit and Manuel looks like an idiot again. Manuel got lucky last night.

He wasn’t so lucky when he used Tom Gordon to the tune of forty pitches a couple of weeks ago, used him the next game again, and then warmed him up yet again the next night, prompting Gordon to meet with Manuel. After five straight losses, two (at the time you interviewed him) or three wins doesn’t vindicate you.

This team is now five games over .500 and will be playing New York and Boston eleven times between now and September 14. They will face Minnesota and Kansas City seven games each before the season is over. Meanwhile Minnesota and KC face much weaker teams.

Had Jerry Manuel perhaps gone with a set lineup in April, May, June, and the first half of July instead of tinkering incessantly, continually disrupting the routines of several key players; had Jerry Manuel not constantly trotted out Billy Koch to get trounced when it was obvious to anybody that he was throwing sub-par, laser-straight fastballs and little else; had Jerry Manuel not underutilized others in the bullpen such as Gary Glover; then we might not have to talk about Manuel feeling vindicated.

Manuel’s boss said that this team should go “deep into the playoffs.” With Jerry Manuel as manager, I don’t see the Sox doing any better than three and out.

Hal Vickery

In all fairness to Gen. Disarray, I must say he managed almost flawlessly tonight.

FJA
08-21-2003, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by oheeoh...magglio
Chris Berman...ha!! I enjoy his football coverage, but when it comes to baseball coverage, that guy is such a tool. And i also wanted to mention, a lot of ppl rip at boston gammons around here, but he mentions magglio ordonez more than any media person i've seen on any espn or national station or show.

Yes he does.

:boston

"Wouldn't he look good in a Red Sox uniform?"

ChiWhiteSox1337
08-21-2003, 11:52 PM
Yeah I was reading an article on ESPN.com today and Gammons was the only one to mention Maggs for MVP, of course it was along with NOMAHHH

RKMeibalane
08-21-2003, 11:53 PM
This is sad. If Jerry Manuel wins the Manager of the Year award, I may consider moving to Canada.

oheeoh...magglio
08-22-2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
This is sad. If Jerry Manuel wins the Manager of the Year award, I may consider moving to Canada.

if manuel wins manager of the year, I WILL move to canada.

MHOUSE
08-22-2003, 01:56 AM
Pena is AL Manger OTY. Period. From a 100 loss season to a 90+ win season and perhaps the playoffs. Looking at his roster starting the year and even now did anyone think he could compete? NO. This guy has gotten the job done and he has to win it. Even mentioning Manuel is ludacris. Nice enough guy, but an awful manager. If we win in the playoffs he'll probably get an extension too. UGH!

"2003 White Sox: Win AND lose Manuel"

LASOXFAN
08-22-2003, 02:46 AM
Putting C Lee in the 2-hole was the best move he made all year, forcing Carlos to swing back up the middle and to right field. It's made him a better hitter. He wouldn't listen to that advice when he was batting lower in the order. He tried to pull everything.

And I wish to god Hal would stop using Gary Glover's lack of playing time as a point AGAINST Jerry. Hal, were you watching him pitch early on? He was getting shelled. So please, stop speaking of this guy as if he were some stud out of the pen who never got his chance. It weakens your argument against Jerry and there are so many other points against him that could be discussed.

fquaye149
08-22-2003, 07:31 AM
maybe it was royals fans voting for manuel to give pena a bigger deficit

that's just the kind of backwards thinking i'd expect froma royals fan

Jurr
08-22-2003, 08:01 AM
I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with Hal's email.
#1. At least JM has found out that he is fallible and has changed his approach..much less tinkering! He's by no means a great manager, but he's learned his lesson to some extent.
#2. If the Sox had a 10 game lead, they wouldn't be focusing as much during the home stretch, and they'd develop the same mental rust that killed them during the 2000 playoffs. This season's team must fight through a gauntlet of tough teams to get to the promised land. West coast teams give the Sox problems, much more than the east coast teams. I'm not nearly as worried about Boston and New York as I am Seattle and Oakland.
Anyway, if this Sox team is able to make the playoffs with this schedule ahead of them, they will be a solid, battle tested ball club, capable of doing some serious damage in a playoff run. We know that when they bring intensity and focus to the ball park, they're nearly unbeatable.
A Sox team in this year's playoffs is much more of a positive situation than the cruising to a division experienced by the 2000 variety. To say that a team in this year's playoffs would go three and out, considering what they're up against to reach the playoffs would be assinine. I'd rather this team not make the playoffs than watch them cruise to a 20 game lead and flop.

thepaulbowski
08-22-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by oheeoh...magglio
if manuel wins manager of the year, I WILL move to canada.

It would take more than that for me to move to Canada!!

:gulp:

TornLabrum
08-22-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
Putting C Lee in the 2-hole was the best move he made all year, forcing Carlos to swing back up the middle and to right field. It's made him a better hitter. He wouldn't listen to that advice when he was batting lower in the order. He tried to pull everything.

And I wish to god Hal would stop using Gary Glover's lack of playing time as a point AGAINST Jerry. Hal, were you watching him pitch early on? He was getting shelled. So please, stop speaking of this guy as if he were some stud out of the pen who never got his chance. It weakens your argument against Jerry and there are so many other points against him that could be discussed.

And Glover was going to improve by not making an appearance for 19 days, right?

TornLabrum
08-22-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Jurr
I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with Hal's email.
#1. At least JM has found out that he is fallible and has changed his approach..much less tinkering! He's by no means a great manager, but he's learned his lesson to some extent.
#2. If the Sox had a 10 game lead, they wouldn't be focusing as much during the home stretch, and they'd develop the same mental rust that killed them during the 2000 playoffs. This season's team must fight through a gauntlet of tough teams to get to the promised land. West coast teams give the Sox problems, much more than the east coast teams. I'm not nearly as worried about Boston and New York as I am Seattle and Oakland.
Anyway, if this Sox team is able to make the playoffs with this schedule ahead of them, they will be a solid, battle tested ball club, capable of doing some serious damage in a playoff run. We know that when they bring intensity and focus to the ball park, they're nearly unbeatable.
A Sox team in this year's playoffs is much more of a positive situation than the cruising to a division experienced by the 2000 variety. To say that a team in this year's playoffs would go three and out, considering what they're up against to reach the playoffs would be assinine. I'd rather this team not make the playoffs than watch them cruise to a 20 game lead and flop.

Listen to what you just said. It's good to lose early because that helps you in the end. Unbelievable!

Part of the reason the Sox lacked intensity in the 2000 playoffs was very simple. Manuel rested them for a week before the playoffs. He was and still is an idiot.

Konerkoholic
08-22-2003, 01:18 PM
Torre's gotta be second on the list of MOTY. He lost 2 big horses (Jeter, Williams) for long stretches of time and had to deal with the exact opposite of a gamer in Mondesi. He has also had to deal with a weak Yankee bullpen, all while Boss Steinbrenner is looking over his shoulder. I think Torre deserves a lot of credit this year.
P.S.: I'm back. Hell yeah! I got hit with that damn worm virus for like 2 weeks. It's good to be back at WSI. :D:
P.P.S.: Reese is back, too! :D: :D: :D:

RKMeibalane
08-22-2003, 01:30 PM
The following is a list of things Manuel has done wrong during his years as the White Sox manager:

1. Moved Frank Thomas to DH full time in 1998.

2. Allowed Nardi Contreras to serve as pitching coach.

3. Given playing time to Royce Clayton, as opposed to Jose Valentin or Joe Crede- KW is also to blame for this, however.

4. Accused Frank Thomas of "quitting the team" in 1999. Soon after, it was revealed that Frank had a golf-ball sized bone spur in his ankle and small corn on his pinky toe. The team podiatrist said that it was amazing Frank could even walk, let alone play baseball.

5. Benched Frank Thomas without telling him, even though Frank was struggling at the time.

6. Admitted more than once that he "likes to tinker even though it usually doesn't work."

7. Given playing time to Mike Caruso.

8. Benched Magglio Ordonez and Frank Thomas randomly, even though both were playing well at the time.

9. Given playing time to Paul Konerko when it was clear to everyone that Paulie should have been on the bench.

10. Played Magglio Ordonez out of position, so Armando Rios could get more playing time.

11. Used Jose Valentin in the lead-off spot.

12. Played D'Angelo Jimenez at third base.

13. Put Royce Clayton higher than eighth in the batting order.

14. Given Harold Baines playing time, even though the man was no longer capable of hitting.

15. Given Julio Ramirez playing time, period.

16. Used Willie Harris as a pinch-hitter.

17. Kept Paul Konerko at first and Frank Thomas at DH becuase of the team's defense.

18. Pulled starters out of games, even though they weren't tired.

19. Used four or five pitchers to get one out.

20. Hit Albert Belle in front of Frank Thomas.

21. Used a starting outfield of Daubach, Rios, and Rowand.

22. Used his "B Team" for crucial games.

23. Kept Mark Buehrle in the bullpen as an emergency pitcher, even though he was scheduled to start the next day.

24. Had Tom Gordon warm up after throwing forty pitches the day before.

25. Allowed Todd Ritchie to start after his disastorous first half in 2002.

26. Used Kelly Wunsch in long relief situations.

27. Kept Dan Wright in the starting rotation.

28. Ordered Jose Valentin to bunt.

29. Ordered Carlos Lee to bunt.

30. Lied about his tinkering.

31. Misued just about every pitcher on the Sox roster in the past six years... and lied about it.

32. Bought ice cream for Royce Clayton.

33. Given playing time to players becuase of stupid reasons (i.e. where they went to school).

34. Considered using Tony Graffanino in the outfield.

35. *TINKER* *TINKER *TINKER*

36. Used Jose Valentin in center field.

Do I need to go on?

FJA
08-22-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Do I need to go on?

I find it disturbing, RK, that you have maintained a list. :smile:

Konerkoholic
08-22-2003, 01:52 PM
Not a bad list. The one I would have to disagree with, however, is #7, Given playing time to Mike Caruso. Caruso actually had a good rookie year, finishing ahead of Maggs in voting. Plus, he hit that Wrigley Field basket homer to sweep the Cubs in '99. Caruso is a hero!

RKMeibalane
08-22-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
Not a bad list. The one I would have to disagree with, however, is #7, Given playing time to Mike Caruso. Caruso actually had a good rookie year, finishing ahead of Maggs in voting. Plus, he hit that Wrigley Field basket homer to sweep the Cubs in '99. Caruso is a hero!

I probably should have added "after 1998" to the Caruso statement. I'm sure there are more things that he has done that I'm not aware of.

BTW, it's good to see Reese's beautiful face around here again. Welcome back!

soxtalker
08-23-2003, 04:11 PM
Just went back and read this Thursday-Friday thread. Is this poll continuing, or was it just during the Thursday night game?

I haven't generally commented on JM, preferring to target KW. However, I'm generally in agreement with a lot of posters on this board that JM has not been a good manager lately. I'm not as concerned about his tinkering as others, though I'm also willing to concede the point. I haven't been very happy with many of his "strategic" moves, however.

What I have noticed, though, is that there are a couple of groups involved with the Sox that seem to really like and support him -- namely, the players and the media. In fact, it seems like radio, TV, and newspaper reporters jump to his defense and can't understand the fans lack of support. Am I wrong in this impression?

TDog
08-23-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Konerkoholic
Not a bad list. The one I would have to disagree with, however, is #7, Given playing time to Mike Caruso. Caruso actually had a good rookie year, finishing ahead of Maggs in voting. Plus, he hit that Wrigley Field basket homer to sweep the Cubs in '99. Caruso is a hero!

Whenever a Cubs fan starts raving about home run totals put up by the corker, I pretty much shut them down with, "Jeez, even Mike Caruso hit a home run a Wrigley Field."

Huisj
08-23-2003, 05:29 PM
Looking at the sox road record, i don't see how jerry manuel could possibly be considered for manager of the year

Meixner007
08-23-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
Looking at the sox road record, i don't see how jerry manuel could possibly be considered for manager of the year

Looking at a lot of things I dont' think he could be considered...