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View Full Version : Interesting Stipulation in Valentin's Contract


fledgedrallycap
08-20-2003, 09:18 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-030819soxnotes,1,3062119.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Hullett_Fan
08-20-2003, 11:04 AM
I saw that. The Sox should not let the clause kick in and then resign him for next year at $1 to $2 mil. No way he's worth $5 mil batting .237

hold2dibber
08-20-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
I saw that. The Sox should not let the clause kick in and then resign him for next year at $1 to $2 mil. No way he's worth $5 mil batting .237

Today was the first I had heard of this clause. It puts the team in a tough spot in a way - I agree he is not worth $5 million next year; the market has changed since he signed his deal and that price tag is way too high now. But with the Sox in contention, they certainly cannot be making personnel decisions based upon anything other than on-the-field considerations. I think the solution is for JM to ONLY play Jose against left handed pitchers. As soon as a righty comes in the game, Jose is out. No starting him against lefties (like he did Monday against Washburn). Jose is atrocious against hitting right handed, so why risk triggering the clause by playing him aginst them?

cheeses_h_rice
08-20-2003, 11:15 AM
:hitless

If Jose doesn't work out, I'm always available with my patented Balsa Wood technique!

fledgedrallycap
08-20-2003, 11:30 AM
It really is a double edged sword because I don't want the Sox to start making personell decisions in the middle of a divisional title race, but at the same time Jose is not the caliber of a player to be getting almost six million next year. As long as Tony G. keeps playing solid ball they can split the time and avoid the clause. As for next year, I would love to see the sox spend that 6 million or so on a player like Tehada - who is helping teams like the White Sox out by having a sub-par year.

Dadawg_77
08-20-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by fledgedrallycap
It really is a double edged sword because I don't want the Sox to start making personell decisions in the middle of a divisional title race, but at the same time Jose is not the caliber of a player to be getting almost six million next year. As long as Tony G. keeps playing solid ball they can split the time and avoid the clause. As for next year, I would love to see the sox spend that 6 million or so on a player like Tehada - who is helping teams like the White Sox out by having a sub-par year.

Tehada will cost at least 9 million. Secondly, benching Jose so the team could avoid his clause from being invoke would be disastrous for the locker room and the future of the franchise. Players would hold it against Sox management until the day Jerry sells or dies.

ScottyTheSoxFan
08-20-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Tehada will cost at least 9 million. Secondly, benching Jose so the team could avoid his clause from being invoke would be disastrous for the locker room and the future of the franchise. Players would hold it against Sox management until the day Jerry sells or dies.

Eddie Cicotte.

TheRockinMT
08-20-2003, 12:04 PM
I for one hope that Jose Valentin makes his needed at bats. Yes, his average is down, but his power numbers are respectable. He has also improved his fielding and with Alomar at second helping Jose I think he will get better. I say keep Valentin. The guy is the heart of the team and is always in the game and keeps the others in it too. Paying the kind of money we have seen some of these big names get in years past is an outrage and I think $9M for a Tejada is way to much anyway. I would hope the days of the mamouth dollar contracts are over. Even the Yankees are now saying they have to be careful with spending.

thepaulbowski
08-20-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Today was the first I had heard of this clause. It puts the team in a tough spot in a way - I agree he is not worth $5 million next year; the market has changed since he signed his deal and that price tag is way too high now. But with the Sox in contention, they certainly cannot be making personnel decisions based upon anything other than on-the-field considerations. I think the solution is for JM to ONLY play Jose against left handed pitchers. As soon as a righty comes in the game, Jose is out. No starting him against lefties (like he did Monday against Washburn). Jose is atrocious against hitting right handed, so why risk triggering the clause by playing him aginst them?

He had to play because of Crede's sore toe.

soxtalker
08-20-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
I for one hope that Jose Valentin makes his needed at bats. Yes, his average is down, but his power numbers are respectable. He has also improved his fielding and with Alomar at second helping Jose I think he will get better. I say keep Valentin. The guy is the heart of the team and is always in the game and keeps the others in it too. Paying the kind of money we have seen some of these big names get in years past is an outrage and I think $9M for a Tejada is way to much anyway. I would hope the days of the mamouth dollar contracts are over. Even the Yankees are now saying they have to be careful with spending.

It may sound ok to give him the at-bats now. But Jose isn't getting any younger. Say his average goes down even further next year, or his poor defense returns. Either is possible, if not likely. Then that $5M salary will look like an albatross. Same thing that we've been seeing with Konerko. (I know, there are several on this board who will say that they weren't in favor of giving Konerko such a contract. But the majority of fans seemed to think it a good idea.)

There's no good answer for this. Keeping him out of the line-up to avoid the contract extension looks very bad. But having to pay it will likely come back to haunt us.

MisterB
08-20-2003, 12:24 PM
I know it's in the CBA that a team cannot cut a player's salary by more than 20%. I'm unsure if that still holds if the player declares free agency but re-signs with the team he just left as a free agent. If Valentin's contract doesn't automatically renew, and the Sox don't pick up the option, they would have to pay $4M minimum to bring Jose back. The question is if he declares for free agency, can the Sox then sign him for less than $4M?

jeremyb1
08-20-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
I for one hope that Jose Valentin makes his needed at bats. Yes, his average is down, but his power numbers are respectable. He has also improved his fielding and with Alomar at second helping Jose I think he will get better. I say keep Valentin. The guy is the heart of the team and is always in the game and keeps the others in it too. Paying the kind of money we have seen some of these big names get in years past is an outrage and I think $9M for a Tejada is way to much anyway. I would hope the days of the mamouth dollar contracts are over. Even the Yankees are now saying they have to be careful with spending.

I don't know how you could be in favor of paying Jose 5 million next season with this team's financial situation. I'm not sure we could even afford to pay Jose 5 million without being forced to non-tender Carlos or trade Maggs and obviously that would mean resigning Colon, Alomar, or Everett would become an impossibility. Considering the raises that will be dealt out to Loaiza, Paully, and Maggs as well as the raises that will be given to Buehrle, Garland, CLee, and Wunsch through arbitration we do not have the money to pay Jose 5 million. I assure you he won't see those at bats.

RKMeibalane
08-20-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Tehada will cost at least 9 million. Secondly, benching Jose so the team could avoid his clause from being invoke would be disastrous for the locker room and the future of the franchise. Players would hold it against Sox management until the day Jerry sells or dies.

I was thinking the same thing. The Sox need to be careful here. Obviously, Valentin isn't capable of hitting left-handed pitching on a consistent basis. Having said that, they can't just keep him out of the lineup, because he could accuse the team of trying to rip him off.

The best way to handle this situation would be for Kenny Williams or Jerry Reinsdorf to speak with Jose personally, telling him what he's meant to the team over the past few years, and that they want him back, but it may mean that he has to take a pay-cut. If Jose is willing to do that, great! If not, then it may be time for him to play elsewhere.

Iwritecode
08-20-2003, 01:16 PM
I have an idea, why doesn't JR open his damn wallet and run this team with a decent sized payroll. I doubt the 50 million he's spending this year is killing him. Especially if this team goes deep in the post season. There should be no reason the payroll should be anywhere under 70 million next year. That means give everyone the raises they have coming, resign guys like Colon and Robbie Alomar and quit acting like this is a small market team. I doubt over-paying Jose by a couple of million would make much of a difference then...

hold2dibber
08-20-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
I for one hope that Jose Valentin makes his needed at bats. Yes, his average is down, but his power numbers are respectable. He has also improved his fielding and with Alomar at second helping Jose I think he will get better. I say keep Valentin. The guy is the heart of the team and is always in the game and keeps the others in it too. Paying the kind of money we have seen some of these big names get in years past is an outrage and I think $9M for a Tejada is way to much anyway. I would hope the days of the mamouth dollar contracts are over. Even the Yankees are now saying they have to be careful with spending.

I wouldn't mind seeing Jose back (since the team doesn't seem to have any other obvious options at SS) but I don't see how you can advocate bringing him back at $5 million; on the open market, Jose is, at best, a $2 player. The extra $3 million would probably allow the Sox to re-sign Alomar.

hold2dibber
08-20-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Tehada will cost at least 9 million. Secondly, benching Jose so the team could avoid his clause from being invoke would be disastrous for the locker room and the future of the franchise. Players would hold it against Sox management until the day Jerry sells or dies.

I would be absolutely, positively stunn-i-fied if Tejada got that kind of money. I expect the FA market this offseason to be about the same (or maybe even a little more depressed) than last offseason. Add that to the fact that Tejada has not had a great year (and has only had 1 great year in his career) and to the fact that none of the really big spending teams (except the Dodgers) really need a SS, and I'm guessing he'll get something in the range of 5 years/$35 million.

fledgedrallycap
08-20-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I would be absolutely, positively stunn-i-fied if Tejada got that kind of money. I expect the FA market this offseason to be about the same (or maybe even a little more depressed) than last offseason. Add that to the fact that Tejada has not had a great year (and has only had 1 great year in his career) and to the fact that none of the really big spending teams (except the Dodgers) really need a SS, and I'm guessing he'll get something in the range of 5 years/$35 million.


I tend to agree. With the below potential performance Tehada has put forth in 2003, I would think he will land in the 5-7 million range. Then again, there are a lot of dumb organizations out there like the Orioles, Mets, and Dodgers which throw money at has-been's and never-was's like there was no tomorrow. We will have to wait and see, but it's fun to speculate...

FarmerAndy
08-20-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
I say keep Valentin. The guy is the heart of the team

Jose Valentin may be the heart of this team. But with the way this team has played over the last 3 years, I think it might be time for a heart transplant.

xil357
08-20-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I was thinking the same thing. The Sox need to be careful here. Obviously, Valentin isn't capable of hitting left-handed pitching on a consistent basis. Having said that, they can't just keep him out of the lineup, because he could accuse the team of trying to rip him off.

The best way to handle this situation would be for Kenny Williams or Jerry Reinsdorf to speak with Jose personally, telling him what he's meant to the team over the past few years, and that they want him back, but it may mean that he has to take a pay-cut. If Jose is willing to do that, great! If not, then it may be time for him to play elsewhere.

Agreed 100%.

He should not be batting right-handed anymore. Hey, here's an idea, how about batting left-handed full-time? Has he ever tried batting lefty against southpaws?

One more year of Valentin, even overpaying at $5 million, is not the worst thing in the world unless it prevents the Sox from keeping the core group intact. How about this: trade Konerko and save his $6 million instead?

I was down on Valentin earlier this year but at times he can be pure clutch. If the Sox don't have a legit SS waiting in the wings and/or if they do not sign Tejada, then Valentin -- even at $5 million -- is their best option with Alomar at 2B. I'd prefer a younger infield overall with equal talent, but if they put Frank back at 1B I still feel very good about this infield this season and next.

hold2dibber
08-20-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by xil357
If the Sox don't have a legit SS waiting in the wings and/or if they do not sign Tejada, then Valentin -- even at $5 million -- is their best option with Alomar at 2B. I'd prefer a younger infield overall with equal talent, but if they put Frank back at 1B I still feel very good about this infield this season and next.

If they have to pay Valentin $5 million next year, there's no way there'd be enough $ left to re-sign R. Alomar. Hell, even if they're able to pay much less than $5 million next year, they probably won't be able to re-sign R. Alomar.

TornLabrum
08-20-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
Eddie Cicotte.

That story is a myth. Read "Stealing First" by Rich Lindberg to get the real story. "Eight Men Out" was written by a novelist, and the Cicotte story is fiction.

maurice
08-20-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by xil357
One more year of Valentin, even overpaying at $5 million, is not the worst thing in the world unless it prevents the Sox from keeping the core group intact. How about this: trade Konerko and save his $6 million instead?

How about dumping both Konerko and Valentin, resigning R. Alomar and Colon, exercising the options on Hurt and Loaiza, and getting a good SS and CF? On second thought, lets table these discussions until after the Sox win the 2003 World Series.

:)

Daver
08-20-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
I know it's in the CBA that a team cannot cut a player's salary by more than 20%. I'm unsure if that still holds if the player declares free agency but re-signs with the team he just left as a free agent. If Valentin's contract doesn't automatically renew, and the Sox don't pick up the option, they would have to pay $4M minimum to bring Jose back. The question is if he declares for free agency, can the Sox then sign him for less than $4M?

The Sox could sign him to that tommorrow,they are only bound by the 20% limit if he is offered arbitration.If he files for FA he will get what the market is willing to pay him.

It is not unusual for a player to sign for less than market value to stay with a team he is comfortable playing for.

RKMeibalane
08-20-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by daver
It is not unusual for a player to sign for less than market value to stay with a team he is comfortable playing for.

It happened last winter with Frank Thomas, in fact.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-20-2003, 06:15 PM
Valentin isn't worth that salary and he would probably be the first to admit it. I would decline the option and offer Valentin a decent salary for a mid-level veteran shortstop. Replacing him with anybody better will cost us dearly, either for an everyday player with superior talent ("everyday" rules out Graf) or some unproven rookie KW picks up cheap.

:reinsy
"Cheap? 'Cheap' is such an ugly word. I prefer 'value.' Ballplayers who produce results for low salaries are my favorite kind of ballplayers in the world. It's easy to find them, too. Just pay them the major league minimum and hope to God they produce!"

:ohno
"22 years worth of 'value' from Jerry Reinsdorf..."

jeremyb1
08-21-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I wouldn't mind seeing Jose back (since the team doesn't seem to have any other obvious options at SS) but I don't see how you can advocate bringing him back at $5 million; on the open market, Jose is, at best, a $2 player. The extra $3 million would probably allow the Sox to re-sign Alomar.

First of all, I'm not sure its worth discussing the possibility of Reinsdorf opening the checkbook because short of a series apperance its not going to happen. It'd be nice if I won the lottery, then I wouldn't have to talk about how to pay my bills but since I have no control over that just as the fans and KW have little to no control over the budget Reinsdorf sets, I still have to figure out how I'm going to pay my bills.

Also, even if I was a GM and my team's payroll was 150 million, I still wouldn't pay Jose Valentin $5 millon. No matter how large your payroll is, in order to guarantee the best shot of winning you still have to use your money effectively. Just because you can afford to overpay Valentin doesn't mean you should do so because since Valentin is not the best SS in baseball, the money with which you're overpaying him could be better spent on better players.

Lip Man 1
08-21-2003, 02:25 PM
By the way...thank you for using caps and spacing better. It makes your material MUCH easier to read.

Lip

Tragg
08-21-2003, 05:02 PM
We need to find another shortstop for next year.

Sitting Jose on the bench just for $$ is not the fair thing to do. He's worth nowhere near $5 million.
And neither is Tejada worth $6 mill, much less $9 mill

It will probably be a no-hit shortstop, which will hurt especially if crede and olivio continue to hit in the 230s. Yet, at least this no hit shortstop will be cheap, in contrast to the no hit shortstop we had in 2000 and 2001 who cost $5 mill.