PDA

View Full Version : Kenny Should Do What He Does best


chisoxt
08-18-2003, 11:07 AM
From my perspective, i think that it is safe to assume that kenny should dispense with the practice of obtaining older veterans for younger players, because quite simply, he is not good at doing this. When you look at the guys he has acquired....D Wells (bust) Ritchie (bust), Clayton (bust), Colon (bust) Everett (Good Hitter, poor fielder) R Alamor (Good defensive upgrade, weak offensive player),Schoenweiss (bust).

Frankly, the practice of mortgaging your farm system to get guys a year or two is passe, and has failed with other teams, time and time again (See the New York Mets).

Instead, Kenny should try to focus deals either on getting younger unproven players, or signing guys off of the scrap heap that don't cost any players in return.

I know that everyone is sick of rebuilding, but guess what guys....the time to rebuild will soon be upon us. The sooner that Sox management realizes this, the shorter the time frame will be to becoime a contender again.

TornLabrum
08-18-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by chisoxt
From my perspective, i think that it is safe to assume that kenny should dispense with the practice of obtaining older veterans for younger players, because quite simply, he is not good at doing this. When you look at the guys he has acquired....D Wells (bust) Ritchie (bust), Clayton (bust), Colon (bust) Everett (Good Hitter, poor fielder) R Alamor (Good defensive upgrade, weak offensive player),Schoenweiss (bust).

Frankly, the practice of mortgaging your farm system to get guys a year or two is passe, and has failed with other teams, time and time again (See the New York Mets).

Instead, Kenny should try to focus deals either on getting younger unproven players, or signing guys off of the scrap heap that don't cost any players in return.

I know that everyone is sick of rebuilding, but guess what guys....the time to rebuild will soon be upon us. The sooner that Sox management realizes this, the shorter the time frame will be to becoime a contender again.

:gallas

"I have the perfect marketing slogan: The Kids Can Play III!"

RKMeibalane
08-18-2003, 11:25 AM
I'm waiting for KW to throw another clubhouse tantrum.

:KW

"You guys are bitches and mother****ers!"

hold2dibber
08-18-2003, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by chisoxt
From my perspective, i think that it is safe to assume that kenny should dispense with the practice of obtaining older veterans for younger players, because quite simply, he is not good at doing this. When you look at the guys he has acquired....D Wells (bust) Ritchie (bust), Clayton (bust), Colon (bust) Everett (Good Hitter, poor fielder) R Alamor (Good defensive upgrade, weak offensive player),Schoenweiss (bust).

Wells was a bust, but the Sox didn't give away anything (or so it turns out) to acquire him. The Ritchie trade was a friggin' disaster. Clayton was a bust, but he didn't give away anything to get him. Alomar was a good addition, well worth the risk of losing Ring. Schoenweiss is no good, but Glover wasn't exactly Rich Harden anyway.

Frankly, the practice of mortgaging your farm system to get guys a year or two is passe, and has failed with other teams, time and time again (See the New York Mets).).

I don't think KW has mortgaged the farm system. Last year he stock piled a bunch of young talent at the trade deadline. This year, he dealt some of that stock pile because the Sox were in a position to win the division. Nothing wrong with either approach, IMO.

I know that everyone is sick of rebuilding, but guess what guys....the time to rebuild will soon be upon us. The sooner that Sox management realizes this, the shorter the time frame will be to becoime a contender again.

Give me a break. The Sox are 3 games out in mid August in a lousy division and have more talent than either of the other teams in the hunt. I have no idea if they'll take the division, since they are maddeningly inconsistent and are managed by a complete moron, but I wouldn't exactly say this is the time to talk about rebuilding. This team has the chance to be a contender in this division for the foreseeable future.

fledgedrallycap
08-18-2003, 12:55 PM
Why are you ridiculing Kenny Williams for this? Is it his fault the Sox can't beat teams West of the Mississippi River? Is it his fault this team cannot play conistently? I don't know who's fault it is - Manual's? Maybe. The Players themselves? Could be. However, it certainly isn't the General Manager's.

It comes down to this - The Sox have twelve past/present friggin' all-stars and another handfull of all-star caliber talent. The Sox have a roster which should be smoking this division by upwards of fifteen games.

When the Sox are clicking there isn't a better team in baseball. However, they can't find a way to play at steady level of .650 - .700 winning baseball. I still am finding a way to remain optimistic due to the way they play at home and the gut feeling they will win this division.

gosox41
08-18-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Wells was a bust, but the Sox didn't give away anything (or so it turns out) to acquire him. The Ritchie trade was a friggin' disaster. Clayton was a bust, but he didn't give away anything to get him. Alomar was a good addition, well worth the risk of losing Ring. Schoenweiss is no good, but Glover wasn't exactly Rich Harden anyway.



I don't think KW has mortgaged the farm system. Last year he stock piled a bunch of young talent at the trade deadline. This year, he dealt some of that stock pile because the Sox were in a position to win the division. Nothing wrong with either approach, IMO.



Give me a break. The Sox are 3 games out in mid August in a lousy division and have more talent than either of the other teams in the hunt. I have no idea if they'll take the division, since they are maddeningly inconsistent and are managed by a complete moron, but I wouldn't exactly say this is the time to talk about rebuilding. This team has the chance to be a contender in this division for the foreseeable future.

Two points:
1. Stock piling the farms system doesn't mean acquiring Jon Adkins for an All Star in his prime.
2. The fact that this team is 3 games out in a terrible division even though they are the most talented team in the division is all the more reason to be tlaking about erbuilding. This team is in year 4 of being a contender with one division title to show for it. There are a ton of free agents after this season. Whatver is being done here isn't working.

Bob

duke of dorwood
08-18-2003, 01:48 PM
Maybe he is acknowledging he is not so good with young talent. How many of the big cant miss players from his days as farm director have really panned out?

longshot7
08-18-2003, 01:59 PM
whatever dude...

who cares about next year? let's go for it NOW!!!

and the alomar and everett deals were good... so was boomer at the time, so quit yr whining.

hold2dibber
08-18-2003, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Two points:
1. Stock piling the farms system doesn't mean acquiring Jon Adkins for an All Star in his prime.
2. The fact that this team is 3 games out in a terrible division even though they are the most talented team in the division is all the more reason to be tlaking about erbuilding. This team is in year 4 of being a contender with one division title to show for it. There are a ton of free agents after this season. Whatver is being done here isn't working.

Bob

1. That deal was a crappy one, but all of the other mid-2002 deals were, IMHO, good ones. He got serviceable minor leaguers for Alomar, Lofton and Howry. Not too bad. The Adkins deal was terrible, but OTOH, we don't know who else was interested or who else was being offered. Anyway, my point is that KW has not looted the farm system for veterans. He has shown a penchant for acquiring mediocre (or less than mediocre) veterans for no good reason (see Ritchie, Clayton, etc.), but I don't think he has looted the farm system to do so.

2. If you agree that they have the most talented team in the division, I can't for the life of me understand why you would want to rebuild. They have underachieved this year and last, no question about it. To me, however, that says that the manager has to go. This isn't to suggest that the team is picture perfect personnel wise right now, just that rebuilding would be absurd at this point - they need to fine tune still, particularly in light of their payroll restrictions, but rebuilding when you have the best talent in the division just doesn't make sense.

chisoxt
08-18-2003, 03:40 PM
Why are you ridiculing Kenny Williams for this? Is it his fault the Sox can't beat teams West of the Mississippi River? Is it his fault this team cannot play conistently? I don't know who's fault it is - Manual's? Maybe. The Players themselves? Could be. However, it certainly isn't the General Manager's.

It comes down to this - The Sox have twelve past/present friggin' all-stars and another handfull of all-star caliber talent. The Sox have a roster which should be smoking this division by upwards of fifteen games

This is precisely my point...being an effective GM is more than putting together a good rotisserie league team. Sure the Sox look good on paper compared to the Twins or Royals, but my money, if not my heart bets that both of these two teams will finish ahead of the Sox this year. Why? Because these teams understand the TEAM concept of the game of baseball.They UNDERSTAND and EXECUTE SOLID FUNDAMENTALS. Something woefully lacking on the Sox.

Besides, saying that you have a bunch of former all-stars means nothing. Several of our 'All-Stars' have likely played their last all-star game. This begs the question, how many future All-Stars are on the team?

gosox41
08-18-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
1. That deal was a crappy one, but all of the other mid-2002 deals were, IMHO, good ones. He got serviceable minor leaguers for Alomar, Lofton and Howry. Not too bad. The Adkins deal was terrible, but OTOH, we don't know who else was interested or who else was being offered. Anyway, my point is that KW has not looted the farm system for veterans. He has shown a penchant for acquiring mediocre (or less than mediocre) veterans for no good reason (see Ritchie, Clayton, etc.), but I don't think he has looted the farm system to do so.

2. If you agree that they have the most talented team in the division, I can't for the life of me understand why you would want to rebuild. They have underachieved this year and last, no question about it. To me, however, that says that the manager has to go. This isn't to suggest that the team is picture perfect personnel wise right now, just that rebuilding would be absurd at this point - they need to fine tune still, particularly in light of their payroll restrictions, but rebuilding when you have the best talent in the division just doesn't make sense.

For the first point, I really need to question KW's ability to negotiate. Isn't it odd the Sox received more for Lofton then Ray Durham? What can Lofton do that Ray can't? Ray could probably play CF, but doesn't want to.

As for rebuilding, it's more of rebuilding on the fly. I'd say reloading, but the Sox aren't exactly playing like a "loaded" team should. I've been saying for sometime, there are many things rotten about this team. JM is the most rotten, but what about the selfishness of some of the players? Home run or nothing? Works great for about 1 month of a season. This is the third disappointing season in a row, and no major shake ups have occurred in season to light a fire under these guys.

I'll wait until the Sox are more out of the race before I'll give my opnion about what I'd do in 2004. Of course if the Sox win it all or go far in the playoffs, I think they'll beforced to bring back as many guys as possible.

Bob

soxtalker
08-19-2003, 07:55 AM
I'd like to see an evaluation of the farm system in general and the players that KW has been acquiring for it in particular. Although it doesn't get very much attention, it seems to me that he has been systematically getting rid of the minor league players that were acquired under Schueler's regime and replacing them with his choices. Now, some of that is simply time going by. And he did have lots of input into choices before, though I believe that Schu had a tendency to go with his own whims. Among other things, KW is not sticking to just pitching prospects in the draft.

hold2dibber
08-19-2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
As for rebuilding, it's more of rebuilding on the fly. I'd say reloading, but the Sox aren't exactly playing like a "loaded" team should. I've been saying for sometime, there are many things rotten about this team. JM is the most rotten, but what about the selfishness of some of the players? Home run or nothing? Works great for about 1 month of a season. This is the third disappointing season in a row, and no major shake ups have occurred in season to light a fire under these guys.

A good manager makes his players play unselfishly (see Pena, Tony and Piniella, Lou for two great examples). And I don't know if I agree that these guys play selfishly - just stupidly at times. I lay that at JM's feet. My major complaint with KW is not the talent he has assembled. My major complaint with him is that he sits idly by while that talent is mismanaged by JM.

maurice
08-19-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'd like to see an evaluation of the farm system in general and the players that KW has been acquiring for it in particular. Although it doesn't get very much attention, it seems to me that he has been systematically getting rid of the minor league players that were acquired under Schueler's regime and replacing them with his choices.

You'll probably see several evaluations posted here during the offseason. I'll take the players acquired by KW (and Himes) over Schu's bustouts and non-signings every day and twice on Sunday.

Originally posted by hold2dibber
My major complaint with KW is not the talent he has assembled. My major complaint with him is that he sits idly by while that talent is mismanaged by JM.

IMHO, the only appropriate course of action is to fire JM. I'm not convinced that KW has the authority to do that.

RKMeibalane
08-19-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by maurice
IMHO, the only appropriate course of action is to fire JM. I'm not convinced that KW has the authority to do that.

I agree. Williams has made it clear that he wants to win. He has made the moves to improve the team. I think he would fire Manuel if he had the opportunity, but that opportunity does not exist. Jerry Reinsdorf doesn't want to pay two managers next season, so as far as he's concerned, Manuel will be kept around until his contract expires.

Williams said that Manuel would be gone if the Sox don't make the playoffs, but I don't buy that. Regardless of what happens during the remainder of this season, Manuel will be back next year. JR will see to that.

thepaulbowski
08-19-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by maurice
You'll probably see several evaluations posted here during the offseason. I'll take the players acquired by KW (and Himes) over Schu's bustouts and non-signings every day and twice on Sunday.



IMHO, the only appropriate course of action is to fire JM. I'm not convinced that KW has the authority to do that.

JR pays the bills, JR will be the one to make the decision.

gosox41
08-19-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by maurice
You'll probably see several evaluations posted here during the offseason. I'll take the players acquired by KW (and Himes) over Schu's bustouts and non-signings every day and twice on Sunday.



IMHO, the only appropriate course of action is to fire JM. I'm not convinced that KW has the authority to do that.

KW had the authroity to extend JM's contract, which was one of the first things he did after being named GM.

So in a roundabout way, KW is under some fault for JM still being here. He didn't need to extend his contract, let alone extend it for 4 years (I think that number is right.)

Bob

voodoochile
08-19-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
KW had the authroity to extend JM's contract, which was one of the first things he did after being named GM.

So in a roundabout way, KW is under some fault for JM still being here. He didn't need to extend his contract, let alone extend it for 4 years (I think that number is right.)

Bob

After 2000, the Sox looked like they had a keeper. The same thing happened to Angelo with Jauron after the 2001 Bears season.

In both cases, the GM was under some pretty strong public pressure to sign the guy who had just led the team (WAY ahead of schedule) to a winning season and the playoffs. Can't fault a guy in that situation. Like it or not, that is part of the game - even more so in a media intensive city like Chicago.

gosox41
08-19-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
After 2000, the Sox looked like they had a keeper. The same thing happened to Angelo with Jauron after the 2001 Bears season.

In both cases, the GM was under some pretty strong public pressure to sign the guy who had just led the team (WAY ahead of schedule) to a winning season and the playoffs. Can't fault a guy in that situation. Like it or not, that is part of the game - even more so in a media intensive city like Chicago.

Too bad KW failed to look at the stats and see that the Sox had one great half under Manuel and were average the second half. He also was outmanaged big time in the playoffs.

Sometimes it's worth the risk of waiting a little bit before jumping into a long term thing.

Bob

Lip Man 1
08-19-2003, 05:59 PM
Interesting comment about Reinsdorf having the final say in Manuel's future.

Suppose he does not allow Williams to fire him this off season, does Williams resign knowing he's nothing but a lame duck (or a puppet?)?

Lip

RKMeibalane
08-19-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Interesting comment about Reinsdorf having the final say in Manuel's future.

Suppose he does not allow Williams to fire him this off season, does Williams resign knowing he's nothing but a lame duck (or a puppet?)?

Lip

I don't think so. Manuel will be around for one more year at the most. After 2004, he's gone. The only thing that could possibly keep him here is a championship. As much as it pains me to say this, I don't think the Sox are going to win the World Series. Make the playoffs? Absolutely. But no World Series. That's a pipe dream.

gosox41
08-20-2003, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Interesting comment about Reinsdorf having the final say in Manuel's future.

Suppose he does not allow Williams to fire him this off season, does Williams resign knowing he's nothing but a lame duck (or a puppet?)?

Lip

I doubt it. He probably won't get a GM job anywhere else, even thoug he has shown some improvement as of late (though there are rumors that Einhorn was behind the R. Alomar trade.)

I think KW will stay on. He knows that there is one good thing about working for JR: job security. When JR likes an employee in his mind they can do no wrong. Doesn't matter how incompetent they are, they pretty much have a job for life. Why give up all that just for one more year with a lousy manager that he extended anyways?

Bob

TornLabrum
08-20-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I think KW will stay on. He knows that there is one good thing about working for JR: job security. When JR likes an employee in his mind they can do no wrong. Doesn't matter how incompetent they are, they pretty much have a job for life.

Case in point:

:gallas

"Hi gang!"

Lip Man 1
08-20-2003, 10:56 AM
I heard an interesting comment about Gallas a month or so ago from a friend of mine who has an association with the Sox.

I never thought of it before but if could very well be correct. It makes sense logically.

Some of you may remember the Gallas was actually an award winning sports reporter for one of the suburban Chicago newspapers in the late 70's.

It was Gallas whom Jimmy Piersall attacked and tried to choke after Rob wrote a story speculating why Piersall was removed as a spring coach working with Sox outfielders.

Piersall was still doing the Sox games with Harry and as such was an employee of the organization.

My friend said that he's always thought Gallas was hired as part of the settlement preventing him from suing the Sox over that incident. As long as Jerry Reinsdorf owns the club, Gallas will have his position at least according to my friend.

Don't know if this is how he got his job but considering he had no previous experience in that field, it does hang together.

Lip

Medford Bobby
08-20-2003, 11:54 AM
Boy I remember just before Mall opened up all that crap from Gallas with his "construction" helmet on that "we are building a state of the art ball park that we have researched with our fans and have come up with a ballpark that will go beyond their expectations"....meaning Jerry took the first design that could be done in two years and DOES :angry: NOT look the Old Comiskey Park!





:gallas "Ya gotta remeber that both Harry and Jimmy WERE scum!"

gosox41
08-21-2003, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I heard an interesting comment about Gallas a month or so ago from a friend of mine who has an association with the Sox.

I never thought of it before but if could very well be correct. It makes sense logically.

Some of you may remember the Gallas was actually an award winning sports reporter for one of the suburban Chicago newspapers in the late 70's.

It was Gallas whom Jimmy Piersall attacked and tried to choke after Rob wrote a story speculating why Piersall was removed as a spring coach working with Sox outfielders.

Piersall was still doing the Sox games with Harry and as such was an employee of the organization.

My friend said that he's always thought Gallas was hired as part of the settlement preventing him from suing the Sox over that incident. As long as Jerry Reinsdorf owns the club, Gallas will have his position at least according to my friend.

Don't know if this is how he got his job but considering he had no previous experience in that field, it does hang together.

Lip

If that's the case it wasa dumb move on JR's part. Wouldnt' it have been cheaper to be sued in 1981 then it is to keep this guy on the payroll for 23 years. Based on his title, he's got be making decent money.

Also, I know the Sox would have had some liability if Gallas did sue back then, but I would think Piersall would get sued for a lot more.

Bob

hold2dibber
08-21-2003, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I heard an interesting comment about Gallas a month or so ago from a friend of mine who has an association with the Sox.

I never thought of it before but if could very well be correct. It makes sense logically.

Some of you may remember the Gallas was actually an award winning sports reporter for one of the suburban Chicago newspapers in the late 70's.

It was Gallas whom Jimmy Piersall attacked and tried to choke after Rob wrote a story speculating why Piersall was removed as a spring coach working with Sox outfielders.

Piersall was still doing the Sox games with Harry and as such was an employee of the organization.

My friend said that he's always thought Gallas was hired as part of the settlement preventing him from suing the Sox over that incident. As long as Jerry Reinsdorf owns the club, Gallas will have his position at least according to my friend.

Don't know if this is how he got his job but considering he had no previous experience in that field, it does hang together.

Lip

I don't think it hangs together. First of all, unless Gallas suffered some SERIOUS injury in the attack, any lawsuit would not have been worth a ton of money (certainly not as much as giving someone a job for life). Also, as a general matter, an employer is responsible for its employees actions only to the extent that those actions were part of the employee's job or it was reasonably foreseeable that the employee would take the actions in the course of his or her employment. Here, attacking reporters certainly was not part of Piersall's job, so it is not likely that the Sox would have been held liable anyway.

voodoochile
08-21-2003, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't think it hangs together. First of all, unless Gallas suffered some SERIOUS injury in the attack, any lawsuit would not have been worth a ton of money (certainly not as much as giving someone a job for life). Also, as a general matter, an employer is responsible for its employees actions only to the extent that those actions were part of the employee's job or it was reasonably foreseeable that the employee would take the actions in the course of his or her employment. Here, attacking reporters certainly was not part of Piersall's job, so it is not likely that the Sox would have been held liable anyway.

:reinsy
"Forced to hire Rob? Oh be still my beating heart. I remember that interview like it was yesterday. I said. 'Rob, I need to get more season ticket holders out to the park.' and Rob said, 'Flying Elvises... it always works for me.' I knew I had a winner..."

:gallas
"Just wait until next year. I am going to have bring your cat to the park day. Should be exciting with all those claws and teeth running around the field..."

:reinsy
"Now you know why I love this man so much. He is a genius..."

Lip Man 1
08-21-2003, 01:20 PM
On the question of whether what Piersall did would be considered a serious injury or not...all I know is that my friend told me (and he was actually THERE in the press room) when it happened, it took four guys (including himself) to pull Jimmy off Gallas, who was turning colors because he couldn't get any air.

The other factor to consider is that Gallas never had any experience in PR / Marketing when he was hired. That seems unusual to me that such a big company would take that kind of risk when I'm sure many other qualified candidates with experience in those areas would be willing to apply.

Lip