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Lip Man 1
08-18-2003, 12:15 AM
From the AP account of the latest Sox poor performance:

Not only that, Sox manager Jerry Manuel said before the game that if Cotts failed to fill the team's void as a No. 5 starter, he had no Plan B.

"I hope he can get it done," Manuel said.

The Sox have been synonymous with failure since leaving Chicago a week ago. They went 1-6 on their road trip against Anaheim and Texas, teams that are a combined 14 games under .500.

One Sox player expressed relief that Minnesota didn't sweep the series. There's a sense in the Sox's clubhouse that the Twins, who are three games out of first, will be a tougher foe down the stretch.

I know this isn't completely his fault, Kenny Williams knew the pitching situation both with the 5th starter and the bullpen and hasn't done a thing but for Manager Gandhi to publicy admit he didn't have a back up plan is totally inexcusable.

That's just showing your inability and ignorance.

If you don't have any options fine....but keep it to yourself. To say that outloud makes the manager look like a fool and you have to wonder what the players are thinking when they hear this. What if Cotts hurt himself in the second inning? What do you do Jerry??? Did you not even consider that possibility?

Simply amazing.

Lip

FJA
08-18-2003, 12:30 AM
I'm sure all that was meant by this was that there is no one waiting in the wings to be a No. 5 starter if Cotts doesn't work out. At this point, that's hardly a revelation to anyone who knows anything about baseball. I don't like JM as a manager, but I don't think he's completely stupid ... "Plan B" is probably a four-man rotation, which I'm positive JM wouldn't come out and say, nor should he. But I guarantee you no professional manager would just say "Well, he better work out, or otherwise we'll just throw in the towel" and actually mean it.

If it's something other than the widely-speculated four-man rotation, I can assure you JM wouldn't announce the "secret weapon" either.

No story here, IMO. ... Although I must laugh using the words "secret weapon" knowing that it probably isn't too strong in the "weapon" category. Either way ... he's not going to announce anything that could catch teams off-guard. I'd be more mad about that than him saying he doesn't have a plan.

ChiSoxBobette
08-18-2003, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
From the AP account of the latest Sox poor performance:

[B]Not only that, Sox manager Jerry Manuel said before the game that if Cotts failed to fill the team's void as a No. 5 starter, he had no Plan B.

"I hope he can get it done," Manuel said.

The Sox have been synonymous with failure since leaving Chicago a week ago. They went 1-6 on their road trip against Anaheim and Texas, teams that are a combined 14 games under .500.

One Sox player expressed relief that Minnesota didn't sweep the series. There's a sense in the Sox's clubhouse that the Twins, who are three games out of first, will be a tougher foe down the stretch.[/B

I know this isn't completely his fault, Kenny Williams knew the pitching situation both with the 5th starter and the bullpen and hasn't done a thing but for Manager Gandhi to publicy admit he didn't have a back up plan is totally inexcusable.

That's just showing your inability and ignorance.

If you don't have any options fine....but keep it to yourself. To say that outloud makes the manager look like a fool and you have to wonder what the players are thinking when they hear this. What if Cotts hurt himself in the second inning? What do you do Jerry??? Did you not even consider that possibility?

Simply amazing.

Lip

How any real Sox fan can defend this guy is beyond me, this is the second road trip we've been on where Manuel has shown everyone that he still after 6 years has no clue about this team.
If this had been earlier in the year and we went on this road trip & came back 1 & 6 after playing these last two teams any owner who wanted to really win a division & cared about his team whether the manager was still under contract for another year or not would have fired this guy. I still say if we don't win the Central Div. this year it will be his fault. The guy actually comes out and says if Cotts can't step up and become the #5 starter he has no backup plan, AMAZING! I think they've probably ruined another good young pitcher by putting him in this situation the same way they've ruined others. The GM, Owner & manager of this team are unbelieveable.
:angry: :angry: :angry:

gosox41
08-18-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
From the AP account of the latest Sox poor performance:

Not only that, Sox manager Jerry Manuel said before the game that if Cotts failed to fill the team's void as a No. 5 starter, he had no Plan B.

"I hope he can get it done," Manuel said.

The Sox have been synonymous with failure since leaving Chicago a week ago. They went 1-6 on their road trip against Anaheim and Texas, teams that are a combined 14 games under .500.

One Sox player expressed relief that Minnesota didn't sweep the series. There's a sense in the Sox's clubhouse that the Twins, who are three games out of first, will be a tougher foe down the stretch.

I know this isn't completely his fault, Kenny Williams knew the pitching situation both with the 5th starter and the bullpen and hasn't done a thing but for Manager Gandhi to publicy admit he didn't have a back up plan is totally inexcusable.

That's just showing your inability and ignorance.

If you don't have any options fine....but keep it to yourself. To say that outloud makes the manager look like a fool and you have to wonder what the players are thinking when they hear this. What if Cotts hurt himself in the second inning? What do you do Jerry??? Did you not even consider that possibility?

Simply amazing.

Lip

So much for all that young pitching the team has been stockpiling the last few years.

Bob

Kilroy
08-18-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
...The guy actually comes out and says if Cotts can't step up and become the #5 starter he has no backup plan, AMAZING!

It's not JM's job to have a back-up plan if Cotts doesn't work out. That's KW's job. I'm sure JM has an idea what he'll do if Cotts blows and KW doesn't get him another arm, but I'm betting that wasn't the question that was posed.

I don't really wanna defend JM right now because of how this road trip went. But that's not a defense as much as it is a statement of the way things are...

TornLabrum
08-18-2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by FJA
I'm sure all that was meant by this was that there is no one waiting in the wings to be a No. 5 starter if Cotts doesn't work out. At this point, that's hardly a revelation to anyone who knows anything about baseball. I don't like JM as a manager, but I don't think he's completely stupid ... "Plan B" is probably a four-man rotation, which I'm positive JM wouldn't come out and say, nor should he. But I guarantee you no professional manager would just say "Well, he better work out, or otherwise we'll just throw in the towel" and actually mean it.

If it's something other than the widely-speculated four-man rotation, I can assure you JM wouldn't announce the "secret weapon" either.

No story here, IMO. ... Although I must laugh using the words "secret weapon" knowing that it probably isn't too strong in the "weapon" category. Either way ... he's not going to announce anything that could catch teams off-guard. I'd be more mad about that than him saying he doesn't have a plan.

I interpret Manuel as indirectly putting the onus of the fifth starter problem on Kenny Williams, who is in charge of who that roster spot would be held by.

THE_HOOTER
08-18-2003, 09:16 AM
I dont understand how the 5th starter is so important when your top 2 starters get rocked, and your situational hitting is non-existant except for the long ball.

maurice
08-18-2003, 10:33 AM
Cotts pitched significantly better than All Star vets Colon and Loaiza against the very same red-hot Texas offense. If he keeps this up (instead of the walk-a-thon from his first start), he'll be a fine #5.

FJA
08-18-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by maurice
Cotts pitched significantly better than All Star vets Colon and Loaiza against the very same red-hot Texas offense. If he keeps this up (instead of the walk-a-thon from his first start), he'll be a fine #5.

I agree ... there was marked improvement from Cotts in a game that involved a lot of pressure. He gets one more start, I'm sure ... if he improves again and lasts a few more innings next time (read, throws less balls way out of the strike zone), he'll be more than enough in the five spot.

voodoochile
08-18-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by maurice
Cotts pitched significantly better than All Star vets Colon and Loaiza against the very same red-hot Texas offense. If he keeps this up (instead of the walk-a-thon from his first start), he'll be a fine #5.

And it's a good thing too, because...

:jerry
"I have no backup plan."

RKMeibalane
08-18-2003, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
And it's a good thing too, because...

:jerry
"I have no backup plan."

I'm surprised Manuel hasn't started tinkering with the lineup again. Lately, he has spent most of his time tinkering with the bullpen, and it hasn't worked.

I have a backup plan that will work perfectly. It's called "First Base Frank." I wonder if Manuel has the intelligence necessary to carry it out.

jeremyb1
08-18-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
So much for all that young pitching the team has been stockpiling the last few years.

Bob

Haha, what young pitching? Since kenny took over we've moved Ring, Fogg, Wells, Rupe, Almonte, Guerrier, and Myette from a farm system that hasn't be as productive as it was in past years. pitching depth is certainly a weakness in the organization and has been for a while now.

hold2dibber
08-18-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Haha, what young pitching? Since kenny took over we've moved Ring, Fogg, Wells, Rupe, Almonte, Guerrier, and Myette from a farm system that hasn't be as productive as it was in past years. pitching depth is certainly a weakness in the organization and has been for a while now.

Of the guys you mention, I think only Wells and Ring will turn out to be anything of significance. And KW has acquired a bunch of young arms as well, including Cotts and Marte (not to mention Honel and other pitchers the team has drafted).

Brian26
08-18-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by THE_HOOTER
I dont understand how the 5th starter is so important when your top 2 starters get rocked, and your situational hitting is non-existant except for the long ball.

It's not important. It's just another excuse for Lip to continue to wage his smear campaign against the organization in some bizarre pseudo power trip and attempt to act more business savvy than the owner and general manager (guys who do this for a living).

Lip doesn't know the first thing about the White Sox books and whether or not they could have afforded the overpriced Kenny Rogers or Jeff Suppan this offseason, yet he still wants to make a big deal out of it. I try not to argue points that I don't know anything about. I can debate all night whether or not Manuel should have intentionally walked Palmeiro Friday night, but I'll never try to debate whether or not the Sox should have signed Rogers. I don't know what the Sox bottom-line is and what they can afford, so I trust that Kenny knows what he's doing. He hit the jackpot by stealing Colon, Robbie Alomar and Carl Everett for practically nothing. I know he wants to win, and he's doing everything in his power to get the job done. Why try to bust the dude's chops about the frickin' 5th starter? Give me a break.

voodoochile
08-18-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
It's not important. It's just another excuse for Lip to continue to wage his smear campaign against the organization in some bizarre pseudo power trip and attempt to act more business savvy than the owner and general manager (guys who do this for a living).

Lip doesn't know the first thing about the White Sox books and whether or not they could have afforded the overpriced Kenny Rogers or Jeff Suppan this offseason, yet he still wants to make a big deal out of it. I try not to argue points that I don't know anything about. I can debate all night whether or not Manuel should have intentionally walked Palmeiro Friday night, but I'll never try to debate whether or not the Sox should have signed Rogers. I don't know what the Sox bottom-line is and what they can afford, so I trust that Kenny knows what he's doing. He hit the jackpot by stealing Colon, Robbie Alomar and Carl Everett for practically nothing. I know he wants to win, and he's doing everything in his power to get the job done. Why try to bust the dude's chops about the frickin' 5th starter? Give me a break.

Most fans don't give a crap about "the books" and many of us believe the owners are lying through their teeth about how much money they really make (Like Reinsdorf having a "different company" run the parking concession).

So Lip is perfectly justified from a fans perspective for ripping the organization for not spending top dollar year in and year out in an effort to field the best possible team.

You think Reinsdorf wouldn't trade a few million in losses for a chance at the post-season? He has proven time and time again that this is exactly the point and missing the big picture in the process. Winning = revenue. It's that simple.

I don't always agree with Lip, but historically speaking he is dead on when it comes to the Sox and money. Heck, even Reinsdorf and Williams agree...

:reinsy
"It's all the fans fault that I cannot afford better players. If they don't come to the park, we cannot afford to sign top end free agents." (that's a paraphrase)

:KW
"I cannot spend a dollar if all I have is 50-cents." (missing out on the bigger issue that if he spend the dollar, and it led to a winning season and the playoffs, the money would more than make up for it - want to guess on how much 2 playoff sellouts are worth to the team this year and how much it would mean to the team next year in terms of increased or retained season ticket base?)

Randar68
08-18-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
I know he wants to win, and he's doing everything in his power to get the job done. Why try to bust the dude's chops about the frickin' 5th starter? Give me a break.

Because he is a boob, plain and simple. This is a quote from Ghandi. Jerry doesn't have a clue what is or isn't happenning behind the scenes or in the minors for that matter. Does he know that Rauch has pitched very well in his last few outings?

Honestly, this is The Tinkerer. He doesn't know what he's got 3 feet down from him on the bench!

It's another pathetic excuse to be overly optimistic and bring up Kenny Rogers or some other tool Lip was parading around at the start of the seas as guys the Sox should sign/pick-up.

No, he doesn't know anything about the books, nor will he ever. Williams went out and made 3 excellent moves above what anyone expected him to do, and posts like this whining garbage pollute the board still.

Kenny found a way to get some good players for the stretch drive without having to take on a ton of salary (really none in the Alomar/Everett deals, although he over-payed for Everett IMO) and try to help this team's pathetic offensive struggles.

In case Lip hasn't watched, outside of Koch and a couple early bad outings this season by Gordon, the pitching is the only reason this team is within 10 games of 1st place.

But, why not gripe and whine about KW or Jerry or something else in the middle of a divisional race when you are the only team in your division to make any significant moves. :whiner:

Randar68
08-18-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
What if Cotts hurt himself in the second inning? What do you do Jerry??? Did you not even consider that possibility?

Simply amazing.

Lip

Were you sleeping a week ago when Jerry brought in Danny Wright after 2 1/3 ineffective innings from Cotts and the Sox went on to win?

Or maybe you think last night's loss was Cotts' fault after the Sox couldn't get anything going on offense against the pitching prowess of Powell and Mahay after getting to the starter early.......

Man, that 5th starter spot.... blah blah blah.

Randar68
08-18-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
From the AP account of the latest Sox poor performance:

Not only that, Sox manager Jerry Manuel said before the game that if Cotts failed to fill the team's void as a No. 5 starter, he had no Plan B.

"I hope he can get it done," Manuel said.

The Sox have been synonymous with failure since leaving Chicago a week ago. They went 1-6 on their road trip against Anaheim and Texas, teams that are a combined 14 games under .500.

One Sox player expressed relief that Minnesota didn't sweep the series. There's a sense in the Sox's clubhouse that the Twins, who are three games out of first, will be a tougher foe down the stretch.

I know this isn't completely his fault, Kenny Williams knew the pitching situation both with the 5th starter and the bullpen and hasn't done a thing but for Manager Gandhi to publicy admit he didn't have a back up plan is totally inexcusable.

That's just showing your inability and ignorance.

If you don't have any options fine....but keep it to yourself. To say that outloud makes the manager look like a fool and you have to wonder what the players are thinking when they hear this. What if Cotts hurt himself in the second inning? What do you do Jerry??? Did you not even consider that possibility?

Simply amazing.

Lip


What was the point of this anyways? This is another useless thread. thanks again, Lip.

:threadsucks