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View Full Version : One of KW's 2002 deadline deals revisited


MRKARNO
08-17-2003, 07:55 PM
July 29th
Sandy Alomar Jr to the Rockies for Enemencio Pacheco

Sandy Alomar Jr 2003 (CWS)
AB HR AVG RBI R SB
144 4 .264 23 17 0

Enemencio Pacheco 2003 (AA Birmingham)
IP W-L SV ERA Ks BB
134.1 11-2 0 2.55 104 46

We traded away sandy, resigned him and got an excellent pitching prospect in return for free essentially. This proves that KW is not slighted in every way possible as we essentially took a great pitching prospect for 2 months of Sandy Alomar Jr's service to them

kermittheefrog
08-17-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
July 29th
Sandy Alomar Jr to the Rockies for Enemencio Pacheco

Sandy Alomar Jr 2003 (CWS)
AB HR AVG RBI R SB
144 4 .264 23 17 0

Enemencio Pacheco 2003 (AA Birmingham)
IP W-L SV ERA Ks BB
134.1 11-2 0 2.55 104 46

We traded away sandy, resigned him and got an excellent pitching prospect in return for free essentially. This proves that KW is not slighted in every way possible as we essentially took a great pitching prospect for 2 months of Sandy Alomar Jr's service to them

He's only an okay pitching prospect but it's still something for nothing and thats nice. Would have been nicer if instead of resigning Alomar he got us a real catcher.

MHOUSE
08-18-2003, 12:46 AM
Credit given where due here. KW deserves props for this trade. Sandy is a good guy to backup Olivo and impart some wisdom onto his young career. Any decent player for free is a good thing. Now if we resign Alomar and Schoenweiss turns into a better than 5-ERA pitcher or possible 5th starter then maybe KW deserves even more cheer.

kermittheefrog
08-18-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Credit given where due here. KW deserves props for this trade. Sandy is a good guy to backup Olivo and impart some wisdom onto his young career. Any decent player for free is a good thing. Now if we resign Alomar and Schoenweiss turns into a better than 5-ERA pitcher or possible 5th starter then maybe KW deserves even more cheer.

Resign which Alomar? If we bring Sandy back again I don't think I can handle it and isn't even like Roberto is great, he's just better than our other options and not as painful to watch as Sandy.

MRKARNO
08-18-2003, 02:35 AM
I think the sox are more likely to resign Robbie than Sandy, unless the sox cant get a better catcher

jeremyb1
08-18-2003, 03:21 AM
KW deserves credit for getting anything in return for Sandy but at 25 in a few weeks and still in AA, I really don't think Pacheco is much to talk about. I would describe Pacheco as a fringe prospect as opposed to an excellent prospect.

gosox41
08-18-2003, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
July 29th
Sandy Alomar Jr to the Rockies for Enemencio Pacheco

Sandy Alomar Jr 2003 (CWS)
AB HR AVG RBI R SB
144 4 .264 23 17 0

Enemencio Pacheco 2003 (AA Birmingham)
IP W-L SV ERA Ks BB
134.1 11-2 0 2.55 104 46

We traded away sandy, resigned him and got an excellent pitching prospect in return for free essentially. This proves that KW is not slighted in every way possible as we essentially took a great pitching prospect for 2 months of Sandy Alomar Jr's service to them

It doesn't make up for the another deadline deal: Ray Durham for Jon Adkins. Yikes.

Bob

Hangar18
08-18-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
It doesn't make up for the another deadline deal: Ray Durham for Jon Adkins. Yikes.

Bob

This Trade hurt us on a number of levels, One of which It forced us to make at least 2 more trades to get a 2B. It was silly, I would rather have KEPT Ray Durham, Negotiated a lesser $$$ contract (instead of ASSUMING he wanted the big $$)

soxtalker
08-18-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
This Trade hurt us on a number of levels, One of which It forced us to make at least 2 more trades to get a 2B. It was silly, I would rather have KEPT Ray Durham, Negotiated a lesser $$$ contract (instead of ASSUMING he wanted the big $$)

I hate to defend KW on this. However, last summer before the trading deadline, the general word in MLB was that the compensation pick was going to disappear. Thus, KW was looking at the very real possibility of losing Durham and receiving nothing in return. Billy Beane may look like a genius for taking that chance and getting the compensation pick. But he was in a playoff race, so worst-case scenario for him was that he'd be renting Durham for 2 months.

Now, it can be argued that we should have signed Durham before the trading deadline. That looks particularly appealing in light of the Jimenez failure. However, at the time, it seemed to be a decision to give a younger, promising player a chance to play and not burn up a chunk of salary.

Dadawg_77
08-18-2003, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I hate to defend KW on this. However, last summer before the trading deadline, the general word in MLB was that the compensation pick was going to disappear. Thus, KW was looking at the very real possibility of losing Durham and receiving nothing in return. Billy Beane may look like a genius for taking that chance and getting the compensation pick. But he was in a playoff race, so worst-case scenario for him was that he'd be renting Durham for 2 months.

Now, it can be argued that we should have signed Durham before the trading deadline. That looks particularly appealing in light of the Jimenez failure. However, at the time, it seemed to be a decision to give a younger, promising player a chance to play and not burn up a chunk of salary.

Honestly the compensation pick will probably never go away with the current players union. The owners like the idea of it since it could keep FA prices low, and the players like it since it gives them a say in the draft. A shrewd GM could have seen that fact and betted accordingly.

gosox41
08-18-2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I hate to defend KW on this. However, last summer before the trading deadline, the general word in MLB was that the compensation pick was going to disappear. Thus, KW was looking at the very real possibility of losing Durham and receiving nothing in return. Billy Beane may look like a genius for taking that chance and getting the compensation pick. But he was in a playoff race, so worst-case scenario for him was that he'd be renting Durham for 2 months.

Now, it can be argued that we should have signed Durham before the trading deadline. That looks particularly appealing in light of the Jimenez failure. However, at the time, it seemed to be a decision to give a younger, promising player a chance to play and not burn up a chunk of salary.

In "Moneyball" Billy Beane basically said there was no way the owners were gong to renegotiate the compensation pick if they won out on some sort of luxury tax. He was right and once again out-thought the sox orgnanization (which isn't that hard to do.)

As for not resiging Durham, I thought it was a mistake. I said at the time PK was signed for more money then Ray, that PK should have been the one to be traded. Ray is much more producitnve offensively at 2B then PK is at 1B (even if you take into account PK's best year.)

It's all about wisely allocating resources to maximize production, in this case offense. For some reason they thought PK ws 25% more productive at a position were it's easy to find production then Durham who ranked in the top 3 in the AL offensively.

Bob

soxtalker
08-18-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Honestly the compensation pick will probably never go away with the current players union. The owners like the idea of it since it could keep FA prices low, and the players like it since it gives them a say in the draft. A shrewd GM could have seen that fact and betted accordingly.

I'll buy that. It did seem very strange to me how compensation pick -- which had been widely rumored to be eliminated -- just seemed to get left out of the agreement at the last minute.

I've never been a fan of KW, though that may be changing -- not because he's agressive (having always been that), but because he seems to be learning. The problem is that one really can't judge the real impact of trades until much later.

Dadawg_77
08-18-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
I'll buy that. It did seem very strange to me how compensation pick -- which had been widely rumored to be eliminated -- just seemed to get left out of the agreement at the last minute.

It was talked about and even thought to have been agreed to have been eliminated at one point. But in the end when parties are smoothing over the small details, it was such a minor point that a prefect comprise was the status quo.

Irishlawyer
08-18-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
In "Moneyball" Billy Beane basically said there was no way the owners were gong to renegotiate the compensation pick if they won out on some sort of luxury tax. He was right and once again out-thought the sox orgnanization (which isn't that hard to do.)

As for not resiging Durham, I thought it was a mistake. I said at the time PK was signed for more money then Ray, that PK should have been the one to be traded. Ray is much more producitnve offensively at 2B then PK is at 1B (even if you take into account PK's best year.)

It's all about wisely allocating resources to maximize production, in this case offense. For some reason they thought PK ws 25% more productive at a position were it's easy to find production then Durham who ranked in the top 3 in the AL offensively.

Bob

I agree with the concept, but not with the idea of resigning Ray. After watching a late-career Alomar, I now know that all the head scratching I did watching Ray dive for balls he didn't get and the slow work Ray did on DP's was not just crazy thinking.

Alomar is a real secondbasemen. Ray is not (I could go on and on about what he is though)

MRKARNO
08-18-2003, 10:51 AM
If we end up resigning alomar then it all worked out for the best. Alomar's offense when it's on is better than durham's and alomar hands down plays better defense and the 2B is the center of the double play combo, so that's really important

soxtalker
08-18-2003, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
If we end up resigning alomar then it all worked out for the best. Alomar's offense when it's on is better than durham's and alomar hands down plays better defense and the 2B is the center of the double play combo, so that's really important

I'm not so sure about that. I like what R. Alomar has brought to the team in terms of both defense and offense, though that is, in part, highlighted by the failure of the Jimenez experiment. I think that it depends a lot on what salary he will command, as JR/KW will have a budget that they will live within. I'm not sure if any likely replacement (e.g., Hummel) is ready.

Daver
08-18-2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Honestly the compensation pick will probably never go away with the current players union. The owners like the idea of it since it could keep FA prices low, and the players like it since it gives them a say in the draft. A shrewd GM could have seen that fact and betted accordingly.

The rough draft of the CBA that was signed in haste to avert a strike included eliminating compensation picks,as well as language for a world wide draft and reducing the number of rounds in the draft.None of these details were fully worked out,they were still generalties to the signed document to be agreed upon at a later date.When it was revisited after the strike was averted is when the sides saw how far apart they were to agreeing on any and all of the details,so it was decided to revert to the status quo as opposed to arguing the details into the offseason and affecting the arbitritation process.

The players agreed to to do away with the compensation picks,the MLBPA's problem with the changes in the draft have more to do with the world wide draft and who is responsible for how it is handled,as well as the number of rounds in the draft itself.