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Lip Man 1
08-16-2003, 01:42 AM
Manuel Criticizes Thomas' Hitting Approach

That's the headline on the Tribune's recap of the latest Sox death spiral.

Manuel specifically says that Thomas trying to hit home runs isn't helping the club and for him to do that and help he'd have to hit "50" of them.

Greenstein points out that Thomas isn't the only one hurting the Sox.

I find this very ironic especially since Frank went to Manuel (according to the papers) requesting to play first base to shake him out of his slump, but so far Manager Gandhi has refused instead playing Paul "Dr. Strangeglove" Konerko there instead.

I guess in Gandhi's mind the fact that none of the other Sox hitters are able to find consistency because of his constant "tinkering" means nothing, or that this club for the past three years has been victimized time and time again by "garbage, no name pitchers" with ERA's of seven because they have no plate discipline mean nothing, or that the entire team swings for the fences ALL THE TIME mean nothing.

It's all Frank's fault !

This could be the straw that finally drives Thomas out of Chicago.

and here's what's REALLY scary...picking a fight with a player who is a favorite of the owner, almost makes you think that Manager Moron knows he's coming back next year doesn't it? 9either that or he's trying to get fired...)

Lip

RedPinStripes
08-16-2003, 01:56 AM
Truly amazing. Manuel has to **** with the lineup and bullpen so much and it never works. THEN HE ADMITS IT!

But he still dont know by now that whenever Franks says he's changing his approach , it's a BAD sign. This means Frank is thinking too much AGAIN. If he's "such a baseball man" , why cant he figure out the only way to stop Frank from thinking and bitching himself out after every at bat and inbetween innings? The sad part is, If this team wins the division, Manuel will run us right out of the playoffs unless this team goes on an offensive tear. Not likely in the playoffs. So even if we get swept in the 1st round again, Manuel will have a job next year. It's a lose /lose situation for this team next year with all the free agents.

soxtalker
08-16-2003, 09:25 AM
Well, we can argue about who is right on this -- Manuel or Frank. My guess is that most people on this board will side with Frank. But I think that the bigger issue is that this is a sign that the wheels are beginning to come off. The team was playing well, and now they are not. They are losing to mediocre teams (who, of course, can play loose, as they have nothing to lose). Everyone is getting frustrated. Internal discension is not good. Also, I caught a few player interviews on WSCR last night, and what I heard did not sound good -- complaining about the umpiring, for example.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-16-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Well, we can argue about who is right on this -- Manuel or Frank. My guess is that most people on this board will side with Frank. But I think that the bigger issue is that this is a sign that the wheels are beginning to come off. The team was playing well, and now they are not. They are losing to mediocre teams (who, of course, can play loose, as they have nothing to lose). Everyone is getting frustrated. Internal discension is not good. Also, I caught a few player interviews on WSCR last night, and what I heard did not sound good -- complaining about the umpiring, for example.

If Jerry Manuel can't get the best production from the greatest hitter in White Sox franchise history--and we have SIX YEARS of empirical data to prove he can't--then he needs to go. You simply can't afford to keep this clown around when a hitter superior to Jackson, Appling, Fox, Allen, or Baines is floundering in mediocrity--while his imbecile manager flatly states nothing short of an "emergency" will get him to play Frank at his superior position, first base.

Manuel filling out lineup cards is replaceable. Frank putting up MVP numbers is not. End of discussion.

Please note that NOTHING written above has anything to do with tinkering.

Biggest ****ing idiot in Sox franchise history this side of Terry Bevington--->:jerry

gosox41
08-16-2003, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Well, we can argue about who is right on this -- Manuel or Frank. My guess is that most people on this board will side with Frank. But I think that the bigger issue is that this is a sign that the wheels are beginning to come off. The team was playing well, and now they are not. They are losing to mediocre teams (who, of course, can play loose, as they have nothing to lose). Everyone is getting frustrated. Internal discension is not good. Also, I caught a few player interviews on WSCR last night, and what I heard did not sound good -- complaining about the umpiring, for example.

It's time for JM to steup up and be a leader for this team. This is a team of veterans, they should just relax and play ball and not whine. JM should address the team and act like a leader instead of letting the clubhouse police itself.

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
08-16-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
It's time for JM to steup up and be a leader for this team. This is a team of veterans, they should just relax and play ball and not whine. JM should address the team and act like a leader instead of letting the clubhouse police itself.

Bob

That's the problem, Bob. That's the ever lovin' problem. Manuel addresses the concerns the clubhouse has in the same manner he addresses the media and the fans. What he says is UTTER NONSENSE. You know what I'm talking about...

"Aaron plays because he went to school near here."

"I can't imagine anything short of an emergency playing Frank at first base."

WHAT THE **** IS THAT? Hell, the ballplayers are pissed for the same reasons we're pissed--Manuel has too much contempt for ALL OF US to even offer explanations that make the least bit of sense. There is nothing about this that could ever be confused with leadership. He's losing his team (for the third straight year) because of the very things he says and does.

No wonder the clubhouse is up in arms. They are getting served the same bull**** from Manuel that we get served.

soxtalker
08-16-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
That's the problem, Bob. That's the ever lovin' problem. Manuel addresses the concerns the clubhouse has in the same manner he addresses the media and the fans. What he says is UTTER NONSENSE. You know what I'm talking about...

"Aaron plays because he went to school near here."

"I can't imagine anything short of an emergency playing Frank at first base."

WHAT THE **** IS THAT? Hell, the ballplayers are pissed for the same reasons we're pissed--Manuel has too much contempt for ALL OF US to even offer explanations that make the least bit of sense. There is nothing about this that could ever be confused with leadership. He's losing his team (for the third straight year) because of the very things he says and does.

No wonder the clubhouse is up in arms. They are getting served the same bull**** from Manuel that we get served.

If the wheels continue to fall off, there will be plenty of blame to go around. Yes, Manuel deserves a major share. But I wouldn't let the players off -- Frank included. But I think that the biggest criticism needs to be focused further up the chain of command.

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 11:24 AM
This is disturbing, to say the least. Jerry Manuel is complaining that Frank is pressing, that's he too focused on hitting home runs. Hey, Jerry, guess what? The entire team has the same problem right now!

Hey, Jerry, guess what else? Maybe if you would put Frank at first base, WHERE HE BELONGS, he will get himself going again.

Good grief! What is stopping Williams and Reindorf from pulling the plug on this idiot? Who cares about the money? Manuel is killing this team. First it was the daily tinkering with the lineup. Then it was his misuse of the bullpen. Now, it's Frank Thomas, Carl Everett, Brain Daubach, and anybody else whose chain Jerry "The Tinkerer" feels like pulling.

I am so sick and tired of this bull****. Frank Thomas is a HOF player, yet Jerry "The Tinkerer" can't even bring himself to play Frank WHERE HE WANTS TO PLAY!

Somebody needs to fire this man soon, or else I may just have strangle his sorry ass.

****ing idiot and spawn of Satan ------------------> :jerry

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 11:28 AM
And by the way...

:hurt ----------------------------------------------------> http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/mlb/images/team_logos/50x50/la.gif

Jerry Manuel will go down in history as the only man who could stop Frank Thomas. What did we do to deserve this crap?

I can't wait until next season, when Frank is crushing the ball for the Dodgers, and Jerry Manuel is unemployed. Good God the man just sucks.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-16-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
If the wheels continue to fall off, there will be plenty of blame to go around. Yes, Manuel deserves a major share. But I wouldn't let the players off -- Frank included. But I think that the biggest criticism needs to be focused further up the chain of command.

If you mean Williams and Reinsdorf are culpable for keeping Manuel around, I agree. I believe, along with most other observers, that the White Sox have vastly superior talent to any team in the A.L. Central but they never play to that level. If the owner and GM assemble a team of such talent, it's the manager's job to get the most out of it.

For three years in a row Manuel has failed miserably to get the production from the talent he is given. The Frank Thomas situation is only the most obvious example. What is truly pathetic (and oh so typically White Sox) is that Manuel convicts himself. Here's the smoking gun, available in print and electronic version from any reputable sports news source:

:hurt
"I would like to play some first base during this road trip."

:jerry
"I can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for putting Frank back at first base."

Game. Set. Match.

Get this stupid mother****er outta here-----> :jerry

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 11:35 AM
:hurt

"I need play more games at first base, especially on the road, because I can't work out in the batting cage between innings."

:jerry

"I won't put Frank out there unless it's an emergency."

:KW

"Don't blame me. I just do what I'm told."

:reinsy

"I won't do anything to fix this situation until my profit margin imporves. So there! Muhahahahahaha!"

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 11:44 AM
"If Frank is hitting, we go,'' Manuel said. "He has to be a big part of that. Magglio (Ordonez) is going to be hot and cold. Carlos Lee has been somewhat consistent. (Carl) Everett has given us some really good at-bats. Joe Crede's been here and there. The ninth spot has been kind of erratic. You don't expect to get a lot. But that middle part of the order is where people have to do their thing."

Hey Jerry, if you want Frank to hit for average, put him at first base. His average will go through the roof if that happens.

What also bothers about this is that Manuel admits that other guys are also struggling (i.e. Maggs, Crede, etc.), yet he only feels it's necessary to rip Frank Thomas. Why is that?

Frank said earlier this month that he will probably re-sign with the Sox in the off-season. Somehow, I think this crap will make him change his mind.

So long, Frank! Thanks for everything!

kevingrt
08-16-2003, 11:48 AM
It doesn't matter where Franks hits in the order or what position he is playing, he should be able to hit the ball anyways. These 7 and 8 figure players shouldn't even need managers or coaches to help them out. Most of your normal average businessmen and women don't get help if they are having trouble, and they aren't making nearly as much dinero as these greedy players.

Frank needs to get out of his slump, who cares what Jerry says... when does he ever say anything worth noting?

RedPinStripes
08-16-2003, 11:52 AM
The part that sucks is, we'll have to sit back another season without seeing the Sox in the playoffs (with the best team they've put together since 93) for Manuel to be fired. But if we get there, Manuel will take us right out of the playoffs. When in close games or good teams it like he has a nervous condition. He has to **** with everything . We saw how well he managed in 2000. Dont even look back that far. Watch him in a close game vs. a team over .500

duke of dorwood
08-16-2003, 11:55 AM
You are so wrong-there is no player that is immune to his manager getting inside his head. Same thing at your own job, if the boss is against you, it affects your performance.

FJA
08-16-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
"If Frank is hitting, we go,'' Manuel said. "He has to be a big part of that. Magglio (Ordonez) is going to be hot and cold. Carlos Lee has been somewhat consistent. (Carl) Everett has given us some really good at-bats. Joe Crede's been here and there. The ninth spot has been kind of erratic. You don't expect to get a lot. But that middle part of the order is where people have to do their thing."

Hey Jerry, if you want Frank to hit for average, put him at first base. His average will go through the roof if that happens.

What also bothers about this is that Manuel admits that other guys are also struggling (i.e. Maggs, Crede, etc.), yet he only feels it's necessary to rip Frank Thomas. Why is that?

Frank said earlier this month that he will probably re-sign with the Sox in the off-season. Somehow, I think this crap will make him change his mind.

So long, Frank! Thanks for everything!

My prediction: If we miss the playoffs and Manuel somehow stays, Frank is gone. Anything else, Frank stays.

Look at the reason he said he wants to re-sign ... it has everything to do with winning. I, for one, believe him when he says that, and if we win, he'll put up with Manuel for another year, because you better believe anything short of back-to-back World Series will have Manuel gone for sure after 2004. If we lose--meaning, we don't make the playoffs--and the White Sox organization doesn't get its head out of its ass and fire Jerry Manuel, Frank will walk, and he should.

But I think we're seeing Manuel's last year unless we win the World Series. KW is committed to doing what he can to get fans back in the park, and I think he knows how much respect he and the organization will lose if the Tinkerer sticks around after this year without a very good excuse (read, a championship).

In my mind, it has nothing to do with blame ... there are things he gets blamed for that aren't necessarily his fault, and things that are. Manuel's major, major problem is that he has no sense of control. When things are going well, everything's fine, but when one thing goes wrong, it produces a domino effect and soon the whole clubhouse is in absolute disarray. The worst part is, HE ACTIVELY CONTRIBUTES TO MAKING BAD SITUATIONS WORSE. This latest comment is just ridiculous. I am absolutely positive JM didn't tell Frank he was hurting the team before he told the media, and that's unacceptable. Frank gets mad at JM, Konerko gets mad at Frank, KW gets mad at Konerko ... I've seen this movie before. The Frank at first fiasco is just pure idiocy, but when your manager is making bad clubhouse situations worse, there is no excuse for that.

Firing Manuel now and creating a circus would do more harm than good--IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE AT THE ALL-STAR BREAK--so we'll have to put up with it for the rest of the season, but in my mind, if we keep Manuel for 2004 and we come home with anything short of a world championship in 2003, it might just be as bad among fans like us as the white flag trade; not the act of keeping Manuel alone, but the domino effect it is sure to produce shortly thereafter.

TornLabrum
08-16-2003, 12:19 PM
:reinsy

"You think I'm going to fire Manuel with a year left on his contract? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...you're killing me...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!"

:jerry

"Job security is a wonderful thing."

soxtalker
08-16-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
If you mean Williams and Reinsdorf are culpable for keeping Manuel around, I agree. I believe, along with most other observers, that the White Sox have vastly superior talent to any team in the A.L. Central but they never play to that level. If the owner and GM assemble a team of such talent, it's the manager's job to get the most out of it.

For three years in a row Manuel has failed miserably to get the production from the talent he is given. The Frank Thomas situation is only the most obvious example. What is truly pathetic (and oh so typically White Sox) is that Manuel convicts himself. Here's the smoking gun, available in print and electronic version from any reputable sports news source:


PHG,
The way you phrase things, if we fail this year, the blame is squarely on Manuel alone; KW and JR are fine with the exception of keeping JM. Let me emphasize that I find plenty of reason to find fault with JM. The latest issue with Frank that started this thread is only one category of problem.

But I think that failure this year will bring out plenty of other criticisms of KW and JR. We were starting to hear a number of them earlier in the year before KW brought in Alomar and Everett, and the Sox climbed back in the race.

RedPinStripes
08-16-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
PHG,
The way you phrase things, if we fail this year, the blame is squarely on Manuel alone; KW and JR are fine with the exception of keeping JM. Let me emphasize that I find plenty of reason to find fault with JM. The latest issue with Frank that started this thread is only one category of problem.

But I think that failure this year will bring out plenty of other criticisms of KW and JR. We were starting to hear a number of them earlier in the year before KW brought in Alomar and Everett, and the Sox climbed back in the race.

i cant bash KW too much after what he put together. Depending on how manby guys they keep and what they add will depend on how this deal looks next year. Bottom line.............KW gave Manuel MORE then enough to get to the playoffs with. I blame a lot on Manuel if they cant get it done.

Lip Man 1
08-16-2003, 01:59 PM
Here's a few more statements to analyze...

1. Gandhi said "the middle part of the order has to do their thing..." but WHAT OR WHO EXACTLY IS THE MIDDLE PART OF THE ORDER? I mean it's not like it doesn't change from game to game sometimes hour to hour! He talks about Ordonez being "up and down" (what???) but DOESN'T MAGS HIT FOURTH? ISN'T THAT THE MIDDLE OF THE ORDER? This guy has lost any shread of logic that he may have had five years ago. he's reaching now trying to make up reasons for his stupidity.

2. Paul Konerko has been in a funk since July of last year (with the exception of that four week stretch where baseballs looked like beach balls to ALL Sox hitters...) WHY ISN'T MANAGER GANDHI RIPPING ON HIM FOR ALMOST SINGLE HANDIDLY DESTROYING SCORING CHANCES WITH HIS CONSTANT DOUBLE PLAYS?

and I loved his comments about the Sox being known for "keeping guys in the league." (i.e. bad pitchers with high ERA's) THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT JERRY! It's not like this is a recent thing is it. It's only been going on for the past few years.

What a friggin' idiot. He's lost all sense of reality.

Lip

OEO Magglio
08-16-2003, 02:12 PM
It doesn't matter where Franks hits in the order or what position he is playing, he should be able to hit the ball anyways. These 7 and 8 figure players shouldn't even need managers or coaches to help them out. Most of your normal average businessmen and women don't get help if they are having trouble, and they aren't making nearly as much dinero as these greedy players.
Maybe it shouldn't matter if Frank plays 1st base or not, but it does, he's obviously a much better hitter when he's playing first, Manuel is just an idiot not to realize that Frank will swing the bat much better if he's playing first base.

If you mean Williams and Reinsdorf are culpable for keeping Manuel around, I agree. I believe, along with most other observers, that the White Sox have vastly superior talent to any team in the A.L. Central but they never play to that level. If the owner and GM assemble a team of such talent, it's the manager's job to get the most out of it.
Exactly right, KW has definitely put a team together that should win atleast the AL central, besides the Koch trade the only real mistake KW has made this season is not firing JM, and for Jerry its very easy if you want to get more production out of Frank put him at first base, Manuel is the biggest idiot around, and should have been fired a while ago.

MetalliSox
08-16-2003, 02:23 PM
What was Manuel's lifetime BA in the majors again?

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
What was Manuel's lifetime BA in the majors again?

In parts of five seasons (1978-82), Jerry Manuel had a .150 batting average, to go along with three home runs and thirteen runs batted in.

And this guy honestly believes that he's qualified to tell Frank Thomas, one of the best right-handed hitters in baseball history, how to do his job.

****ing idiot ---------------------------------------> :jerry

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 02:40 PM
BTW, I just over at a competitors web-site. Our old friend Bmr31 is picking fights with people again.

MisterB
08-16-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by KonerkosHip
What was Manuel's lifetime BA in the majors again?


Originally posted by RKMeibalane


In parts of five seasons (1978-82), Jerry Manuel had a .150 batting average, to go along with three home runs and thirteen runs batted in.

And this guy honestly believes that he's qualified to tell Frank Thomas, one of the best right-handed hitters in baseball history, how to do his job.

So I guess Tony LaRussa and his lifetime .199 average is unfit to coach guys like Pujols and McGwire then. A successful major league career has never been a criteria for being a successful manager or coach. There are plenty of other reasons why Manuel is a horrible manager, but his major league stats aren't one of them.

kittle42
08-16-2003, 03:07 PM
I don't think I can read anything else about JM. It really just gets me so worked up to see how the fans have all seen, from late April or early May, that he needed to go, but the blind and/or cheap ownership has still kept him there. It really is one of the most unbelievable things I've seen in this town outside of idiotic Flub fan "loyalty."

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
So I guess Tony LaRussa and his lifetime .199 average is unfit to coach guys like Pujols and McGwire then. A successful major league career has never been a criteria for being a successful manager or coach. There are plenty of other reasons why Manuel is a horrible manager, but his major league stats aren't one of them.

Tony LaRussa never came out and ripped Mark McGwire for trying to hit home runs. That's the problem I have with Manuel. He doesn't handle these situations well at all, and he's had six years to learn how to deal with players. JM has no common sense. He cirticizes someone like Frank because he has been swinging the bat well recently. What Manuel fails to realize is that he is part of the reason why Frank is struggling.

Tony LaRussa does his fair share of tinkering, but at least he knows enough to stick with something when it works. I don't remember the last time Manuel just let his players play the game.

soxtalker
08-16-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Exactly right, KW has definitely put a team together that should win atleast the AL central, besides the Koch trade the only real mistake KW has made this season is not firing JM, and for Jerry its very easy if you want to get more production out of Frank put him at first base, Manuel is the biggest idiot around, and should have been fired a while ago.

Look, if you want to bash JM, fine. But I can't agree that this is a championship team except for JM. The over-reliance on homeruns, lack of speed, suspect relief pitching, and the frustrating mental errors are largely due to the make-up of the team. Does poor managing exacerbate these problems? Do I wish that we had a different manager? Yes on both counts. But I have this nagging thought in the back of my mind that this team really has some serious flaws when compared to championship teams.

People are quite correct when they focus on JM right now. But if we don't win this year, don't let the rest of the organizational chain off the hook. I don't need to say much about JR. KW has made several mistakes over his tenure, though I have the impression (hope) that he has been learning and improving. Note that he has NEVER been lacking in agressiveness, so I'm not as impressed as others that he's made trades to try to improve the ball club (except in comparison with Schueler). The important thing will be how they impact the team -- both now and in the future.

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 03:55 PM
Prediction: Frank won't be in the lineup tonight.

jeremyb1
08-16-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
[B]I find this very ironic especially since Frank went to Manuel (according to the papers) requesting to play first base to shake him out of his slump, but so far Manager Gandhi has refused instead playing Paul "Dr. Strangeglove" Konerko there instead.

anyone have a link on this? i'd always thought frank didn't believe that he actually hit that much better at first. he's always been indifferent at best in the past.

RKMeibalane
08-16-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
anyone have a link on this? i'd always thought frank didn't believe that he actually hit that much better at first. he's always been indifferent at best in the past.

He said earlier this year that he now realizes he's more effective when he plays first. That's why he wants to get back out there.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-16-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
anyone have a link on this? i'd always thought frank didn't believe that he actually hit that much better at first. he's always been indifferent at best in the past.

Here you go, jeremy. Try and keep up with the rest of us, okay?

Have glove, will travel --- Thomas to play first base during road trip (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20030810&content_id=474313&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha)

jeremyb1
08-17-2003, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Here you go, jeremy. Try and keep up with the rest of us, okay?

i really think its uncalled for and petty to hold a personal grudge against me and make personal attacks on a constant basis because you can't take the fact that i won't simply conceed all your arguments are right but hey whatever you need to do...

gosox41
08-17-2003, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by soxtalker
If the wheels continue to fall off, there will be plenty of blame to go around. Yes, Manuel deserves a major share. But I wouldn't let the players off -- Frank included. But I think that the biggest criticism needs to be focused further up the chain of command.


I wonder if JM talks to Frank about his hhitting approach or just uses the media.

Also, most of this team swings for home runs, so the problem does seem to lie some where higher in th chain of command.

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
08-17-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i really think its uncalled for and petty to hold a personal grudge against me and make personal attacks on a constant basis because you can't take the fact that i won't simply conceed all your arguments are right but hey whatever you need to do...

Let's see... that article was published a full week ago... a link to it was placed here by at least two different people within a day of it being published... We've been talking about it every day this week in at least a half-dozen different threads...

The revelations contained in that article are without question the single-biggest reason so many of us are so fed up with Jerry Manuel for his bullheaded refusals all this week to make a move that everyone--even Frank--would prefer.

Now a full week later (!) we find out YOU have been on this message board arguing on this subject COMPLETELY IGNORANT of what the rest of us are talking about. And now you're coping an attitude about it, too???

Finally, on the subject of "uncalled for pettiness," I shouldn't need to remind you that it was YOU who called me out--by name --for things I NEVER POSTED. Otherwise, what you say and think is of no real consequence to me or other sensible posters who've learned too well how poorly you comprehend and communicate thoughts.

Maybe someday I'll start a "Remedial WSI" website, but I doubt it. It would be for people who can't read, can't write, and can't comprehend anything--but feel free to argue anyway. I would never post there because it would be nothing but pointless threads arguing with the likes of you.

This is where that "ignore" feature at WSI comes in so handy.

jeremyb1
08-17-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Let's see... that article was published a full week ago... a link to it was placed here by at least two different people within a day of it being published... We've been talking about it every day this week in at least a half-dozen different threads...

The revelations contained in that article are without question the single-biggest reason so many of us are so fed up with Jerry Manuel for his bullheaded refusals all this week to make a move that everyone--even Frank--would prefer.

Now a full week later (!) we find out YOU have been on this message board arguing on this subject COMPLETELY IGNORANT of what the rest of us are talking about. And now you're coping an attitude about it, too???

Finally, on the subject of "uncalled for pettiness," I shouldn't need to remind you that it was YOU who called me out--by name --for things I NEVER POSTED. Otherwise, what you say and think is of no real consequence to me or other sensible posters who've learned too well how poorly you comprehend and communicate thoughts.

Maybe someday I'll start a "Remedial WSI" website, but I doubt it. It would be for people who can't read, can't write, and can't comprehend anything--but feel free to argue anyway. I would never post there because it would be nothing but pointless threads arguing with the likes of you.

This is where that "ignore" feature at WSI comes in so handy.

oh well since it was posted several times then i'm a complete idiot and that makes it personally reasonable to attack me to your hearts content. like i said, whatever you need to do.

i'd love to know where i've been debating the issue of frank thomas at first base at all let alone debating it with an attitude. the only times i've discussed the issue all week was the one post asking for the link in this thread and the few times somone brought it up to take a shot at manuel in the discussion on platooning at which point i stated i agree that frank should play first but that's a different discussion than platooning and should be discussed in a different thread. i guess since you've misattributed an argument i didn't make to me i should become incredibly offended and defensive now that i know you're out to get me, right?

i refuse to see how i've taken on an attitude on any of this. it seems to me that the only way to do that would be to become personal and attack people which i've completely refrained from doing despite the fact that you've taken the low road on that front several times now.

i still don't think i in any way twisted your words around. if i did i've apologized for it several times. my intent was only to direct my comments towards the person who they were in response to so that i could get a response from the person i was debating with and not random posters who did not make the point i was arguing against. why you couldn't say "excuse me, i'm not the one that said that" instead of becoming angry and taking my actions as a personal affront to you i'm not sure but i don't think anything i've done in any way justifies this treatment. in the future i would recommend that if someone does something that upsets you, you explain the situation to them instead of becoming needlessly angry and building up resentment.

cornball
08-17-2003, 02:02 PM
Bottom line is Frank is supposed to be a professional hitter. The 1st base versus DH thing is bogus. Wasn't that long ago he didnt want to play first base.

His attitude is terrible, his approach stinks and if he doesn't hit he is worthless.

He has done great things in the past, the best hitter in the history of the Sox. However, the Sox dont have a great history of HOF players either. We live in the present, can't change the past and only hope to shape the future....with that said, he has no excuses except to hit (get on base)...didn't he say he "was born to hit" well it shouldn't matter if it is DHing or at 1st.

This team needs him to be possitive and productive to have a chance this year.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-17-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Bottom line is Frank is supposed to be a professional hitter. The 1st base versus DH thing is bogus. Wasn't that long ago he didnt want to play first base.

His attitude is terrible, his approach stinks and if he doesn't hit he is worthless.

He has done great things in the past, the best hitter in the history of the Sox. However, the Sox dont have a great history of HOF players either. We live in the present, can't change the past and only hope to shape the future....with that said, he has no excuses except to hit (get on base)...didn't he say he "was born to hit" well it shouldn't matter if it is DHing or at 1st.

This team needs him to be possitive and productive to have a chance this year.

Frank is hardly the first ballplayer that has a proven ability to hit significantly better when given things to do that seemingly have nothing to do with hitting. We know he is capable of MVP-type numbers when hitting well, such as this past June when he carried the Dead Sox offense all by himself.

If we had a fleet of ballplayers capable of MVP-type numbers I could see your point about Frank needing to do whatever best helps the team. The fact is we don't have a fleet of those types of players. We need at least one guy to put up MVP numbers and the only reliable one we have is Frank Thomas. That's what helps the team the most.

After six years of ****ing around with Jerry Manuel's ideas about what suits Thomas best, it's clear to everybody (except Manuel) that Frank puts up MVP-type numbers best when he plays first base. Furthermore, Frank has expressed great interest in playing first base during this roadtrip for precisely this reason, yet inexplicably Manuel has refused to do so--even going so far as benching him last night.

Sorry cornball, but I think you've got it bass ackwards. It's not Frank Thomas with the bad attitude. It's Jerry Manuel.

TornLabrum
08-17-2003, 02:42 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeremyb1
[B]oh well since it was posted several times then i'm a complete idiot and that makes it personally reasonable to attack me to your hearts content.

You mistakenly printed this in teal.

jeremyb1
08-17-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeremyb1
[B]oh well since it was posted several times then i'm a complete idiot and that makes it personally reasonable to attack me to your hearts content.

You mistakenly printed this in teal.

the wsi maturity level reading is off the charts today. i'm dead set on taking the high road here so you're not going to bait me but come on, you guys are grown men, try to act like it instead of calling me names because i disagreed with you.

RKMeibalane
08-17-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
the wsi maturity level reading is off the charts today. i'm dead set on taking the high road here so you're not going to bait me but come on, you guys are grown men, try to act like it instead of calling me names because i disagreed with you.

They are not making fun of you because you disagree with them. They are doing it because you visited this board several times over the past week and had absolutely no clue that links to articles regarding Frank Thomas playing first base had been posted. They were right under your nose, and you didn't see them.

TornLabrum
08-17-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
They are not making fun of you because you disagree with them. They are doing it because you visited this board several times over the past week and had absolutely no clue that links to articles regarding Frank Thomas playing first base had been posted. They were right under your nose, and you didn't see them.

Thank you. If jeremy would take the time to check my posts around here, he would notice that I do not make it a practice to engage in ad hominem attacks. However, in the last 24 hours or so, jeremy has a) been unaware of any of the background regarding what he has been arguing about regarding Frank Thomas, and b) repeatedly ignored requests that he post in a manner that, due to the lengths of his posts, is impossible to read.

jeremy, if you think you're the new e.e. cummings, remember there is a huge difference between prose and poetry. It is pretty easy to ignore capitalization in poetry and still follow it because, in general, the lines are short. This is not true in prose. I can't get beyond the first paragraph of anything you write. So, no, I can't engage in an intelligent discussion of what you write, even if you were aware of the background. Too bad.

jeremyb1
08-17-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Thank you. If jeremy would take the time to check my posts around here, he would notice that I do not make it a practice to engage in ad hominem attacks. However, in the last 24 hours or so, jeremy has a) been unaware of any of the background regarding what he has been arguing about regarding Frank Thomas, and b) repeatedly ignored requests that he post in a manner that, due to the lengths of his posts, is impossible to read.

jeremy, if you think you're the new e.e. cummings, remember there is a huge difference between prose and poetry. It is pretty easy to ignore capitalization in poetry and still follow it because, in general, the lines are short. This is not true in prose. I can't get beyond the first paragraph of anything you write. So, no, I can't engage in an intelligent discussion of what you write, even if you were aware of the background. Too bad.

but engaging in an ad hominem attack is exactly what you did. you stated that i was an idiot because you had trouble reading my posts? how does the fact that you dislike my style of posting justify attacking me? if you don't like it don't read it. if you think i'm stupid that's completely within your right but you don't have to berate me on top of it. if i'm such a clueless, helpless soul then you shouldn't need to make scathing remarks to make my situation worse, right?

TornLabrum
08-17-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
but engaging in an ad hominem attack is exactly what you did. you stated that i was an idiot because you had trouble reading my posts? how does the fact that you dislike my style of posting justify attacking me? if you don't like it don't read it. if you think i'm stupid that's completely within your right but you don't have to berate me on top of it. if i'm such a clueless, helpless soul then you shouldn't need to make scathing remarks to make my situation worse, right?

Where exactly in the reprinted post below do I call you an idiot?

Thank you. If jeremy would take the time to check my posts around here, he would notice that I do not make it a practice to engage in ad hominem attacks. However, in the last 24 hours or so, jeremy has a) been unaware of any of the background regarding what he has been arguing about regarding Frank Thomas, and b) repeatedly ignored requests that he post in a manner that, due to the lengths of his posts, is impossible to read.

jeremy, if you think you're the new e.e. cummings, remember there is a huge difference between prose and poetry. It is pretty easy to ignore capitalization in poetry and still follow it because, in general, the lines are short. This is not true in prose. I can't get beyond the first paragraph of anything you write. So, no, I can't engage in an intelligent discussion of what you write, even if you were aware of the background. Too bad.

I think I've called you anything but an idiot. On the other hand, it is now apparent to me that you do suffer from reading comprehension problems.

jeremyb1
08-17-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Where exactly in the reprinted post below do I call you an idiot?

I think I've called you anything but an idiot. On the other hand, it is now apparent to me that you do suffer from reading comprehension problems.

i wrote "oh well since it was posted several times then i'm a complete idiot and that makes it personally reasonable to attack me to your hearts content. " to which you replied "You mistakenly printed this in teal." the clear implication is that what i wrote should be taken literally hence i'm a complete idiot and you have reason to make personal attacks on me. am i pulling this out of thin air here? i thought your comments were pretty clear cut.

TornLabrum
08-17-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
i wrote "oh well since it was posted several times then i'm a complete idiot and that makes it personally reasonable to attack me to your hearts content. " to which you replied "You mistakenly printed this in teal." the clear implication is that what i wrote should be taken literally hence i'm a complete idiot and you have reason to make personal attacks on me. am i pulling this out of thin air here? i thought your comments were pretty clear cut.

You (in teal) called yourself an idiot. This is called setting oneself up. I never said I could resist a setup for a punchline.

jeremyb1
08-17-2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
You (in teal) called yourself an idiot. This is called setting oneself up. I never said I could resist a setup for a punchline.

Hahaha. Well your inability to "resist a setup for a punchline" apparently leads to ad hominem attacks which you claimed you never make on this board...

TornLabrum
08-17-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Hahaha. Well your inability to "resist a setup for a punchline" apparently leads to ad hominem attacks which you claimed you never make on this board...

Believe me, if I were to call you an idiot, I wouldn't do it indirectly.

RKMeibalane
07-07-2004, 10:20 PM
I'm bringing this thread back. Ah, the memories...