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baseballboy
08-14-2003, 05:55 PM
Foulke blew another save today. Big game situation against the Red Sox, the team they are competing for the wild card against. Sounds familiar to us white sox fans doesnt it? Foulke, big game, and a blown save. Hmmmm..........

FJA
08-14-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Foulke blew another save today. Big game situation against the Red Sox, the team they are competing for the wild card against. Sounds familiar to us white sox fans doesnt it? Foulke, big game, and a blown save. Hmmmm..........

Is Oakland merely a sattellite for Boston? I have never heard a crowd for an away team LOUDER than that for the home team (other than some Cubs/Sox moments).

soxtalker
08-14-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Foulke blew another save today. Big game situation against the Red Sox, the team they are competing for the wild card against. Sounds familiar to us white sox fans doesnt it? Foulke, big game, and a blown save. Hmmmm..........

Virtually every closer has some blown saves. I'd still rather have him back in a Sox uniform. From what I recall, A's fans were telling us that closing with Koch meant constantly being on the edge.

SoxxoS
08-14-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Virtually every closer has some blown saves. I'd still rather have him back in a Sox uniform. From what I recall, A's fans were telling us that closing with Koch meant constantly being on the edge.

Give me Koch at 100% and I'll take Koch in a heartbeat, case and point what happened earlier today. He can't close the big games! You want the ball in his hands in game 7 of the ALDS?

gosox41
08-14-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Give me Koch at 100% and I'll take Koch in a heartbeat, case and point what happened earlier today. He can't close the big games! You want the ball in his hands in game 7 of the ALDS?

Are you Kenny Williams??? Statistically Foulke pitches circles around Koch, even when Koch is at 100%. No wonder Billy Beane took adavantage of you. :D:

Bob

kermittheefrog
08-14-2003, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Give me Koch at 100% and I'll take Koch in a heartbeat, case and point what happened earlier today. He can't close the big games! You want the ball in his hands in game 7 of the ALDS?

A) The ALDS only lasts 5 games at the most.

B) Koch gave up what became the winning runs in game 5 of last year's ALDS.

C) B is just as meaningful Foulke blowing a save today. Which is to say both are meaningless. You can't judge players on one or two outtings. Foulke has shown himself to be a much better pitcher than Koch.

baseballboy
08-14-2003, 08:12 PM
Today was just one more example of what we have seen of Foulke throughout his career. He can not handle the pressure of big games. I never once brought up Koch. How about Marte? Wouldn't you rather see that guy in a big game situation before Foulke? After seeing what happened today and remembering the past of him in big games for us I would much rather have Marte in the bullpen waiting to close things out. Remember big games against Seattle? the Yanks? the Twinkies? I do and that is what frustrated me most about him. I would much rather have Marte than Foulke, period.

baseballboy
08-14-2003, 08:22 PM
Kenny Williams is also responsible for getting us Marte in a trade. Remember? For Guerrier. However I never once hear how Kenny fleeced the Pittsburgh GM in that trade. A bullpen ace stud for absolutely nothing in return.

baseballboy
08-14-2003, 08:42 PM
THis is now Foulke's 5th blown save in 34 chances. That is 85%, isn't that Koch's lifetime save percentage? The same that all you Foulke lovers complain about?

kermittheefrog
08-14-2003, 09:30 PM
Have you ever even heard of ERA and what it means?

duke of dorwood
08-14-2003, 09:48 PM
What Foulke did here and what Koch has done speak for themselves.

MHOUSE
08-15-2003, 12:00 AM
Foulke blew so many big saves that I'd be willing to put almost anyone out there but him. Lats year he was a liability and that's why he lost the closers job. His Baggie Dome meltdowns and his huge meltdown in Anaheim early last year were enough for me to warrant a trade. Koch may have sucked this year but at perhaps 100% in 2004 he could be huge for us. Foulke was too expensive to be a great middle reliever. (2nd half last year)

kempsted
08-15-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Today was just one more example of what we have seen of Foulke throughout his career. He can not handle the pressure of big games. I never once brought up Koch. How about Marte? Wouldn't you rather see that guy in a big game situation before Foulke? After seeing what happened today and remembering the past of him in big games for us I would much rather have Marte in the bullpen waiting to close things out. Remember big games against Seattle? the Yanks? the Twinkies? I do and that is what frustrated me most about him. I would much rather have Marte than Foulke, period.

This is so stupid. He has 29 saves. Including many against division foes in important games. He also has saves against the Yankees and Giants. This is so incredibly stupid. Every closer blows saves. Koch blew 5 last year as well. In fact he had a save 2 days ago against Boston.

Why does Baseballboy keep posting this same stuff over and over and why do we bother to respond. Yikes. Should we post a thread every time Foulke makes a save ???

gosox41
08-15-2003, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Kenny Williams is also responsible for getting us Marte in a trade. Remember? For Guerrier. However I never once hear how Kenny fleeced the Pittsburgh GM in that trade. A bullpen ace stud for absolutely nothing in return.

Marte was a good trade. My guess is the reason you don't hear much about it is because the Sox got fleeced by giving up 2 starters to the same team. In the case of just the two trades being made between Pittsburgh and the Sox, Pittsburgh got the better end of the deal. 2 starters (or 1) have more value then one reliever.

Bob

gosox41
08-15-2003, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by MHOUSE
Foulke blew so many big saves that I'd be willing to put almost anyone out there but him. Lats year he was a liability and that's why he lost the closers job. His Baggie Dome meltdowns and his huge meltdown in Anaheim early last year were enough for me to warrant a trade. Koch may have sucked this year but at perhaps 100% in 2004 he could be huge for us. Foulke was too expensive to be a great middle reliever. (2nd half last year)

I don't think Foulke blew that many games. But Koch is much too expensive to be a mop up guy, which is what he is right now. I remember hearing how Jaime Navarro would turn it around after his first bad season. The law of averages stuff. Now Koch is hurt adding another variable in the equation.

Bob

baseballboy
08-15-2003, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Marte was a good trade. My guess is the reason you don't hear much about it is because the Sox got fleeced by giving up 2 starters to the same team. In the case of just the two trades being made between Pittsburgh and the Sox, Pittsburgh got the better end of the deal. 2 starters (or 1) have more value then one reliever.

Bob

I beg to differ. I think the only reason you don't hear about it is because a lot of the people on here are so damn negative and love to have something to complain about that they cant dare say anything positive about their favorite team. Most people who are fans of our favorite team love to complain about what we dont have and not think about what we do have. Even if we had a complete all-star team all you would hear from these people are who we dont have or who we had to give up in order to get some players. I hate that about our fans and I really wish that would change.

baseballboy
08-15-2003, 04:23 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
This is so stupid. He has 29 saves. Including many against division foes in important games. He also has saves against the Yankees and Giants. This is so incredibly stupid. Every closer blows saves. Koch blew 5 last year as well. In fact he had a save 2 days ago against Boston.

Why does Baseballboy keep posting this same stuff over and over and why do we bother to respond. Yikes. Should we post a thread every time Foulke makes a save ???

One more time Kemp, I never brought up Koch. How about Marte? Games earlier in the season are not as "BIG" as they are now. I know I know, everygame is just as big anytime during the season, however the pressure does gain as the season wears. These are games the As need to win as they are fighting Boston for the Wildcard. Foulke knows this, everyone on the As knows this. As far as his save 2 days ago against Boston, thats great, so he is now 1-1 in big game situations this year? Would you like to have a closer tat goes .500 in big games? I wouldn't. Every closer blows saves, however people around here seem to think he is Gagne or Smoltz which he is not. He should be a distant memory, but people keep saying how much they miss him. I am so sick of it. Let it go!

kempsted
08-15-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy
One more time Kemp, I never brought up Koch. How about Marte? Games earlier in the season are not as "BIG" as they are now. I know I know, everygame is just as big anytime during the season, however the pressure does gain as the season wears. These are games the As need to win as they are fighting Boston for the Wildcard. Foulke knows this, everyone on the As knows this. As far as his save 2 days ago against Boston, thats great, so he is now 1-1 in big game situations this year? Would you like to have a closer tat goes .500 in big games? I wouldn't. Every closer blows saves, however people around here seem to think he is Gagne or Smoltz which he is not. He should be a distant memory, but people keep saying how much they miss him. I am so sick of it. Let it go!
I agree we should get over it. I don't agree that Foulke was not a great closer. I am also willing to allow for a GM to get it wrong. That's fine. But why do you think you need so put down Foulke. What your saying is just stupid. Look at it 1-1 in big game situations. Hmmm. Well since all save situations are pressure situations he is 29 -5. Not too bad. But lets take your later games in the season are more important. Here are his last five save opps

July 24 at Seattle - Hmmm that seems big since that is who they are chasing for the division
July 25 - Aneheim
July 29 - Cleveland
July 31 - Cleveland
Aug 12 - Boston.
2 of those were big must win games. And that is only counting recent opps.

The man almost had no ER after June of last year to the end of the year. He was only not the closer because Manuel wouldn't use him period.

But you are correct that the people who say he is the best closer in baseball etc are incorrect. I also agree Marte, or heck even Gordon could be a good closer. Marte has 5 blown saves as well this year. Does that mean he sucks? Smoltz has three blown saves including 2 against division opponents Philadelphia and Montreal - Does he suck?

In fact if you look at Adjusted Runs Prevented - which is a cool way of looking at relief pitchers - Foulke comes in 13th. Marte comes in 17th which is not bad.

The fact is anyone who has good stuff can be a closer. The save leader this year is Julio from the Orioles and I can tell you he is scary. He gets a lot of saves because they have three run leads. Anyone who you put in that roll and keep them there if they are a good pitcher will have a lot of saves.

If you actually WATCHED games last year, name one bad game Foulke had after mid May..... I'm waiting. You can't.

D'Angelo F Death
08-15-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Marte was a good trade. My guess is the reason you don't hear much about it is because the Sox got fleeced by giving up 2 starters to the same team. In the case of just the two trades being made between Pittsburgh and the Sox, Pittsburgh got the better end of the deal. 2 starters (or 1) have more value then one reliever.

Bob

I gotta opine that Marte > (Fogg + Wells)

If that's what you're discussing here.

Marte's a stud of a closer....damn. Wells & Fogg are merely OK starters.

FoulkeFan
08-15-2003, 09:24 AM
I keep seeing this thread in various forms over and over again and I've tried to ignore it - but I just can't! OK here goes-

Which saves would it be acceptable for a closer to blow? Is it more likely that your closer will blow a save against the Tampa Bay Devil Rays - or against the Boston Red Sox? Come on people - no closer is perfect. This argument is ridiculous - and it applies to any closer, not just Foulke. John Smoltz has 3 blown saves for crying out loud.

Foulke is a great closer and I'd be happy to see him still playing for the Sox. That being said, he's on the A's now. Can't we just drop it?

maurice
08-15-2003, 11:16 AM
Foulke has given up exactly one run in 11.2 innings since the All-Star break. Yeah, he sucks.

baseballboy
08-15-2003, 12:46 PM
Foulke has blown 5 saves in 34 chances. That isn't exactly someone I would be proud to have as my closer either. I would much rather have Marte. I hope that if he isnt the closer by the end of this year then he will be full time next year. Our manager, for some reason, will not give him the full time gig. He has proved he is worthy of it. I think he is much better than Foulke and can be just as devastating as Gagne and Smoltz.

Please stop comparing Foulke to either Smoltz or Gagne. That is a joke, it is not even close between them and should never be up for discussion. Smoltz has 43 saves in 46 chances(93%) and Gagne is 40 out of 40. Foulke is not that good and never has been while Marte may not be either, but I would like to see him have the chance to prove it.

thepaulbowski
08-15-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by FoulkeFan
I keep seeing this thread in various forms over and over again and I've tried to ignore it - but I just can't! OK here goes-

Which saves would it be acceptable for a closer to blow? Is it more likely that your closer will blow a save against the Tampa Bay Devil Rays - or against the Boston Red Sox? Come on people - no closer is perfect. This argument is ridiculous - and it applies to any closer, not just Foulke. John Smoltz has 3 blown saves for crying out loud.

Foulke is a great closer and I'd be happy to see him still playing for the Sox. That being said, he's on the A's now. Can't we just drop it?

Correction: Gagne IS perfect in non-exhibition games

kempsted
08-15-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Correction: Gagne IS perfect in non-exhibition games
BUZZ I'm sorry wrong answer thanks for playing. Gagne is not perfect in non-exhibition games. He blew a save at the all star game and this time it counts..... :)

ma-gaga
08-15-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Foulke has blown 5 saves in 34 chances. That isn't exactly someone I would be proud to have as my closer either. I would much rather have Marte. ... I think he is much better than Foulke and can be just as devastating as Gagne and Smoltz.
...
Please stop comparing Foulke to either Smoltz or Gagne. That is a joke...

Hahaha. This is sad. Foulke is a better pitcher than Marte. Give Marte 30+ chances and he'll blow a decent number of them. Guaranteed.

Man that grass is greener on the other side of the fence. I think JM dicking around with Foulke and Koch is much more of a crime than Foulke blowing 5 "critical" saves.

So, I have a question. It seems like the NL has better pitching, and the obvious reason is that they don't have to face the DH a couple of times a game. So, I was wondering if the difference between Gagne/Smoltz and the best AL guys, Foulke/whomever, is partially due to the quality of hitters faced/lack of a DH? Or at the end of a game, does it just not matter?

Lip Man 1
08-15-2003, 06:31 PM
Isn't Foulke a free agent after the season?

If Manager Gandhi's fired maybe the Sox and Keith can come to a new contract agreement. Since I don't think if Gandhi remains Foulke would consider the Sox under any circumstances.

Lip

gosox41
08-15-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by baseballboy
I beg to differ. I think the only reason you don't hear about it is because a lot of the people on here are so damn negative and love to have something to complain about that they cant dare say anything positive about their favorite team. Most people who are fans of our favorite team love to complain about what we dont have and not think about what we do have. Even if we had a complete all-star team all you would hear from these people are who we dont have or who we had to give up in order to get some players. I hate that about our fans and I really wish that would change.

Or they like to complain about what we actually had and how stupid it was to give it up for so little in return. Fiding talent is one thing. Developing young talent is something the Sox have been lacking, especially in the pitching category (except for Buehrle and maybe Garland.)

Bob

Lip Man 1
08-15-2003, 10:39 PM
Bob:

I do recall last year a column, I think by Phil Rogers that mentioned the fact that Uncle Jerry was asking the same questions about why the Sox can't seem to develop good young pitchers the way the A's and Astros have.

It's a good question....an even better one is why the organization continues to try to sell the fans a bill of goods about the "can't miss kids," and refuses to go out and spend for good pitchers with a history of winning games.

(and I don't mean pitchers with baggage a la Wells and Ritchie. Colon broke the mold but will the Sox keep him?)

Lip

baseballboy
08-15-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Hahaha. This is sad. Foulke is a better pitcher than Marte. Give Marte 30+ chances and he'll blow a decent number of them. Guaranteed.

Man that grass is greener on the other side of the fence. I think JM dicking around with Foulke and Koch is much more of a crime than Foulke blowing 5 "critical" saves.

So, I have a question. It seems like the NL has better pitching, and the obvious reason is that they don't have to face the DH a couple of times a game. So, I was wondering if the difference between Gagne/Smoltz and the best AL guys, Foulke/whomever, is partially due to the quality of hitters faced/lack of a DH? Or at the end of a game, does it just not matter?

No I think Gagne and Smoltz are just that much better and would dominate either league. There are some pitchers that do better in the national league I will agree there. Kipper has proved better there, so has Jeff Suppan, however I think the dominant guys will remain the same. Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez have proved that by being dominant in both leagues. Some pitchers don't benefit from the national league either. That is very hard to tell.

I have a question for you. How can you "know" Marte will do this? Fact is you don't. You are basing it all on opinion where as we already know what Foulke is. He has only converted 85% of his chances this year. That is fact. Is Marte better than that? I believe he is, you believe he isn't. I say lets see it happen. Foulke is not better than Mariano Rivera(who is past his glory days). I don't believe he is better than Percival either. A healthy Sasaki is better. I believe Foulke is far overrated, especially by most White Sox fans.

MarkEdward
08-16-2003, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy

I have a question for you. How can you "know" Marte will do this? Fact is you don't. You are basing it all on opinion where as we already know what Foulke is. He has only converted 85% of his chances this year.

Save percentage is a pretty worthless stat, but Damaso Marte is only at about 57% for the year.

baseballboy
08-16-2003, 07:47 AM
Its a worthless stat that everyone seemed to be using in Foulke's favor for his past years compared to Kochs past years. Good job on Marte, I never knew he had that many blown saves. I don't know why I thought he was better than that.

voodoochile
08-16-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by baseballboy
Its a worthless stat that everyone seemed to be using in Foulke's favor for his past years compared to Kochs past years. Good job on Marte, I never knew he had that many blown saves. I don't know why I thought he was better than that.

Don't get confused. Most of those were when he came into the game with runners in scoring position already and then allowed them to score. This was never in the ninth and they were not truly save opportunities, but because the Sox lost the lead while he was in the game, it goes down as a blown save. He had a real bad run of it in May and June. None of those runs were assigned to him, so it protects his ERA, but messes up his save %. He is very effective when entering the game to start the ninth - at least from what I have seen.

Don't let those numbers confuse you. It is one reason saves are an overrated stat...

thepaulbowski
08-16-2003, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
BUZZ I'm sorry wrong answer thanks for playing. Gagne is not perfect in non-exhibition games. He blew a save at the all star game and this time it counts..... :)

he would have to play in the world series for it to count for him, since he won't ever be in the playoffs it is a non-issue.

baseballboy
08-16-2003, 03:14 PM
Thanks Voodoo, that explains a lot.